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BLP issues at Anita Sarkeesian

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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As many of us know, the Anita Sarkeesian article has been a particularly sensitive BLP issue since the subject was the victim of a sustained harassment campaign last May. Mostly this has been handled through scrupulous patrolling, however one particular user, Niemti, continues to use the talk page in a manner inconsistent with BLP, the talk page guidelines, and general competence, and it needs to stop. Niemti, coming off a ban as HanzoHattori and currently the subject of an RFC/U about his behavior, dislikes Sarkeesian and feels the article is primarily about video games, entitling him to add negative material from video game blogs.[1] Worse, for over two months, he has choked the talk page with incoherent rants that disparage the subject, circulate negative gossip, and derail any discussions about actual article improvements.[2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10]
He has been warned about this various times,[11][12][13][14] but won't or can't stop his disruption. Most recently he started a facepalm-inducing RM that's a pretty transparent attempt to shift the focus of the article in the hopes it will let him introduce negative material from video game blogs. He's spent the last three days bludgeoning any RM participant who disagrees with him (which, naturally, is every other editor) and going off on yet more disparaging tangents.
Enough's enough. It's clear Niemti can't participate at this article in any collaborative fashion. He needs to be banned from the article and its talk page - and any discussion of Anita Sarkeesian on Wikipedia. It's also time to look more comprehensively at the issues brought up at his RFC/U.--Cúchullain ^t/c 16:25, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

• I support Cúchullain's analysis of the situation. Classic case of WP:IDIDNOTHEARTHAT that has gone on for far too long. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:10, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

I can support/reinforce what Cuchullain is saying too. It's the same problems I come into every single time I interact with Niemti. (For the record, I rarely have actual personal conflicts with him, it's more that editors are always coming to WP:VG asking for help with dealing with him, a place where I frequently provide assistance.) He has ownership issues, and you can't hold a rationale discussion with him on talk pages. His responses are usually long confusing rants filled with condescending, saracastic remarks..

It's hard to recommend what to do though; as difficult and rude as he may be, he usually keeps within the bounds of blockable offenses. (He reverts people without explanation, but usually stays within 3RR. He's rude, but usually doesn't violate WP:NPA.) Sergecross73 msg me 18:19, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Topic ban proposal

In this case his strange gossip is clearly a BLP issue, and his refusal to get the point and talk page railroading is disruptive. He needs to be banned from all discussion involving Anita Sarkeesian. And please, someone close that disruptive RM.Cúchullain ^t/c 18:36, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Okay, let's make it formal. My proposal: Niemti is indefinitely banned from the Anita Sarkeesian article, its talk page, and any discussion of the subject on Wikipedia.Cúchullain ^t/c 18:41, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Niemti's issues stretch beyond just this article as noted above, but if this works in halting some of his disruption I don't see the harm in supporting a ban. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 18:43, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

• I also support Cuchullain's topic ban proposal and if this works in preventing some of his disruption, I do not see any problem with that per David Fuchs's comments on this situation. I agree with Cuchullain that it's perfectly clear that Niemti cannot participate in this article in a collaborative fashion and also that it's about time to look into the situation over at the user's RFC/U. This pattern of disruption is unacceptable. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 18:51, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

I have to ask at this juncture whether anybody not editing from Sympathetic Point of View with Sarkeesian will be treated as part of a larger "harassment campaign" and blocked. Iamcuriousblue (talk) 20:44, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Feel free to comment on the actual situation here.Cúchullain ^t/c 21:10, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Also note that the RM has been closed by TRPOD. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 22:08, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support a topic ban. Drmies (talk) 00:57, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support topic ban. Nobody is suggesting the AS article should be free of criticism or critique, merely that all such be cited from RS. The editor under discussion has long since passed the threshold of disruptiveness. BusterD (talk) 04:41, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support topic ban. This editor has gone too far beyond constructive dialog and consensus-seeking and is way into disruptive territory, and clearly will not stop voluntarily. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 05:37, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
• I agree wholeheartedly with a topic ban. Niemti hass shown time and time again to be incapable of separating passionate personal views on the matter from what is relevant to article content or talkpage discussion. As long as there is zero understanding and not even the mild intellectual sympathy of feminist media analysis in video games, Niemti's interaction with the topic will remain destructive. Peter ^Isotalo 05:43, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support See also recent AN ban discussion, closed as no consensus. NE Ent 13:27, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose - I went to the Anita Sarkeesian article and talk page expecting to see a woman-hating disruptive editor harassing other editors, based upon the description given above, but that's not what I saw. Many of the editors Niemti suggested did, in fact, advance the cause of NPOV policy. He has a clear view, but it's clear that certain editors are wikilawyering to prevent that view from being even mentioned in the article. When editors try to argue that an article about a woman known for criticizing video games for sexism has nothing to do with video games and therefore sources about videogames cannot be used in the article, that's crazy. When they try to prevent published criticism of the topic of the article by saying that the source is not reliable because it is a video game blog (video game blogs can be reliable) but allows a lot of primary sources and feminist blogs to be used as sources, that's not following WP:RS, that's cherry picking sources to use the article as a promotional piece advancing her views and her career. In my opinion Niemti is not any more guilty of WP:IDIDNOTHEARTHAT than the editors currently their rejecting his input. Wiipedia editors are far too quick to try to block people over disagreements over views instead of actual behavior. This is just civil POV pushing. DreamGuy (talk) 17:03, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
  • All I can say is that regulars of WP:VG appear to have a thing or two to learn about critical analysis of references. Some of the nonsense sourcing (blogs, forums, fan databases, "quote references") that many video game articles get away with would never be tolerated in other fields. This is a perfect example of what happens when those standards are applied outside the somewhat sheltered views of gaming aficionados. Peter ^Isotalo 03:42, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
    • I can't stress enough that WikiProject Video Games does not call the source in question (Destructoid) "reliable". This is something that Niemti keeps on saying that simply isn't true. WP:VG classifies it as "situational", as it can only be used in rare instances, because sometimes their stories are picked up by more reliable sources, showing it's likely reliable/true information, yet Destructoid should ultimately get credited for being the source. There's no way that this is one of those scenarios where WP:VG would deem the source useable. So don't misdirect the issue here. Sergecross73 msg me 04:32, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Content matters aren't at issue here. The issue is Niemti's behavior, which has been totally disruptive to the article. Comments like this have no place anywhere on Wikipedia.Cúchullain ^t/c 04:43, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

I think this your diff shows exactly what we disagree about. In the diff, Niemti simply makes an argument that a person is not really notable. This may or may not be a correct argument (I would have to do my own research), but I do not see this at all as a BLP violation or a personal attack. I would never make such comment. However, if someone else made such comment in discussion with me, I would consider this comment as frank and straight to the point. My very best wishes (talk) 14:03, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't get it. Niemti has repeatedly attempted to insert his own favored POV into the article in obvious violation of WP:RS and without any understanding of the topic at hand. Niemti has plagued the talkpage with long-winded rants, general incivility and only two days ago a disingenuous attempt to move the article. He has time and time again shown that he is unwilling or incapable of listening to arguments or to respect consensus.

Are you trying to tell us that Niemti's behavior in this case has actually been helpful and constructive...?

Peter ^Isotalo 15:11, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Wishes, again, this isn't about the content matters Niemti brings up, it's about his disruptive behavior. In that single edit, Niemti went, FORUM-style, on an irrelevant tangent about some other YouTuber, ignored previous warnings to stick to discussing article improvements, and claimed, with no backing or relevance whatsoever, that Sarkeesian engineered the trolling campaign in a "media-savy way" to "start a huge moral panic" in order to benefit financially from it. Oh, and he suggests she should have just rolled over for her harassers or "counter-attack literally using her vagina". Are you really suggesting this is appropriate and productive talk page discussion? And people wonder why few women edit Wikipedia.Cúchullain ^t/c 16:36, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that was probably an inappropriate statement, but a quote from elsewhere and about a different person. Still, I would advise Niemti should stay away of this page. As about women in the project, come on, they simply have more important things to do than waste their time here. My very best wishes (talk) 19:56, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

That kind of blasé comment does not alleviate any concerns, you know.

Peter ^Isotalo 04:28, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

I would not be so much concerned about this particular statement to bring the matter to ANI. My very best wishes (talk) 22:04, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

These examples are merely to show that Niemti refuses to take feminists like Sarkeesian seriously. This is about campaigning for months to skew the article to fit his own personal preferences, and for choking the talkpage in the process. Peter ^Isotalo 06:31, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

If the comment were isolated it would not be a matter for ANI. However, it's part of a pattern of similar negative and unsourced comments about a BLP along with various other disruptive behaviors that have continued for over two months.Cúchullain ^t/c 14:39, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. I still do not think that any statement by Niemti provided in the diffs above (on the article talk page) represents a clear-cut BLP violation. However, I would strongly advise Niemti to voluntarily stop editing this page, stop commenting about this person and make a clear statement about this here. My very best wishes (talk) 18:43, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support - Per my comments above. Sergecross73 msg me 21:11, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
• Neutral agree with DreamGuy. While Niemti's view may be unpopular, I don't see any blatant BLP issues by him in the discussion. Note also that TRPoD's closure of discussion was not appropriate, as he has already voiced his opinion in the discussion with comments, he has a conflict of interest and should not close the move discussion. As I'm not a participant in the actual discussion, however, I'll just go with neutral !vote. Still waiting for Niemti's statement, though... Satellizer ^talkcontribs 23:42, 19 January 2013 (UTC)I've decided to remove my !vote per the comments responding to this and other comments; I thus have no opinion on this issue.Satellizer (talk) 00:13, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Indeed, I understand where you're coming from. Personally, I'm not as much bothered by the BLP problem as much as that there's clear consensus against what he's trying to do, and yet time and time again he wastes editors time with his incoherent rants and attitude, and has even made comments that seem to suggest he's going to just go against consensus once editors lose interest in the topic. Sergecross73 msg me 00:28, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
  • You may be neutral in your vote, but you're definitely not neutral in your commentary. It's not a matter of unpopularity. This is a classic example of "Experts are scum" in my view, something which I thought was rather rare on Wikipedia these days. The views Niemti is trying to push so obstinately are about as relevant as the views of an oil lobbyist in a debate about global warming. Gender studies may not be as "hard" a science as climatology, but it sure as hell is more absolute than the opinionated and uninformed editorials of video game reviewers. Peter ^Isotalo 03:54, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
    • If a source is reliable, it's reliable. Your comments here suggest that you don't think games journalists can be considered reliable for a game-related topic, which seems pretty absurd. Niemti might not be a productive Wikipedian but your attitude is not helpful either. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 21:11, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
      • It's really simple. Hot Rod Magazine might be a reliable source when it comes to the topic of cars, however it is not a reliable source for the theory of relativity...even if the theory of relativity is applied to cars. Similarly, game journalists might be reliable sources for games, however they are not reliable sources for cultural studies/women's studies/etc...even if those things are applied to games--which is what's going on in this instance. So no, a reliable source for one topic isn't a reliable source for another topic. As mentioned above, failing to get this point (WP:RS) is one of the problems. DonQuixote (talk) 01:30, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
• (edit conflict)Comment. Clearly I believe that taken as a whole, Niemti's rantings, many of which just introduce unsourced gossip, disparaging innuendo, and personal gripes about Sarkeesian and her motivations, constitute a BLP issue. But even if you disagree on that point, there's still the matter that his repeated violations of WP:NOTAFORUM and the WP:TPG, his unwillingness to get on track despite numerous warnings, and his bludgeoning of editors who disagree with him. This is patently disruptive and it needs to stop.Cúchullain ^t/c 00:35, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
  • My thoughts, exactly. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 02:09, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose per DreamGuy. 5.12.84.224 (talk) 02:48, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose as my analysis mirrored DreamGuy's --Nouniquenames 03:58, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
• Strong Support in agreement with comments by Cuchullain and Sergecross. --ThomasO1989 (talk) 08:45, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support - Niemti is an excellent editor when working alone on uncontroversial subjects, but terrible at working with others. He is unable to make even the slightest concession to other editors and becomes demanding, patronising and sarcastic almost immediatly upon sighting an alternate point of view. This issue is not about what the Sarkeesian article should look like, but the way he goes about the discussion, which is wholly inappropriate and completely disruptive to civil, useful discussion. Euchrid (talk) 21:15, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
• First, and foremost, I'd like to start of by saying that I do not consider Niemti to be sexist, at all. The arguments sighted on the article's talk page stem more from a disagreement about the source of Sarkeesian's notability than any misogynist sentiments on his part. Nevertheless, the concern is that he is using said talk page as a platform to express his opinions (or as he may call them, "facts" — of the variety that cannot be adequately verified by any third-party sources) regarding the subject, and specifically the reasons in which she is considered significant enough to have a biography on Wikipedia; it delves into BLP-violating territory when he says that her fame mostly comes from the harassment campaign levied against her, which cannot possibly be substantiated in the article. It's hard to really get a good sense of what he's trying to accomplish in his contributions there, and it's unfortunately stirred up a great deal of ill will among the participants. Therefore, I'll have to echo the sentiments of My very best wishes in suggesting that Niemti disengages from the topic altogether, precluding the need for an actual community sanction. I think he would find much more satisfaction in editing other topics of interest than from continuing to beat this particular dead horse. Kurtis ^(talk) 22:05, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support. Echoing DaveFuchs and NE Ent, as I see it there's already consensus that Niemti should not be editing video game articles at all. bridies (talk) 12:38, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

• I came from my weekend and I see what. You "should not be editing video game articles at all", too, but also maybe first decide if this is a video game article or not (allegedly it sin't). The article is also using Kotaku, which is a very unprofessional video game tabloid blog (as noted by the acclaimed game director Hideki Kamiya[15]). And you know what's "disruptive"? Not allowing a discussion on talk page, replying with "fucking deal" and such, doing things like this thread. Bye. --Niemti (talk) 18:39, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Oh, amd also I just though about it, and this single-event article should be merged into something like "Women and video gaming controversies" (or some better name, it was quick). Which would also cover the professional gamer Miranda Pakozdi, the game writer Jennifer Hepler, and so on (who all have no articles on Wikipedia, despite being widely reported, too, including in the mainstream press, and often in the very same articles as Sarkeesian - just google them and you'll see). --Niemti (talk) 18:53, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. That's a fine example of the incoherent, attitude riddled rantings you tend to muddle discussions with. Sergecross73 msg me 19:05, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

You're welcome, also not. --Niemti (talk) 19:20, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

This is just an attempt to midirect attention away from your disruptive behavior and towards abstract content issues. That's not going to fly.Cúchullain ^t/c 20:48, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

• Niemti shows no sign of relenting either here or at Sarkeesian's talkpage. He's even calling WP:VG/RS "a joke".[16] And then there's the deeply offensive suggestion that women are by themselves video game controversies. Topic ban now, please. Peter ^Isotalo 20:19, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

• The discussion has been going on for just a few days. As an uninvolved admin, in my view it would be premature to close it.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:36, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't know if it's time to move forward with this proposal yet, but Niemti's recent spate of commentary contains more of the same problematic behavior and suggests he has no intention of changing.Cúchullain ^t/c 20:48, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Because treating Kotaku (a source of such fine "journalism" as this or that) an unconditionally reliable source surely must be a joke. Anyway, I'm done hopelessly trying to initiate a proper (with arguments and counter-arguments, instead of abuse and bullying that I'm getting from you) discussion on the changes with the article (the article that I've previously edited more than anyone else). See you at AfD in time. --Niemti (talk) 21:47, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Oh, and (of course) I never made a "deeply offensive suggestion that women are by themselves video game controversies", and with this bizarrily absurd comment you've just got a taste of what's going on at this talk page. Now I'm unwatching it, like I just unwatched this article, after being central in building it up. --Niemti (talk) 22:02, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

An AfD right after a unanimously opposed RM. We can add WP:FORUMSHOPPING to the list of disruptive behaviors.Cúchullain ^t/c 22:23, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Enough about Kotaku. If you don't like that there's a consensus that it's reliable, start a discussion at WP:VG to change it. The issue at hand here is the edits you're trying to make to this article, and how you handle yourself on the talk page. Neither of those things have anything to do with Kotaku's status of reliability, so it's irrelevant to discuss here. Sergecross73 msg me 00:01, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support narrow topic ban -- it's way past the question of right/wrong or POV. Niemti is being moderately rude (which is hardly unusual) and has shown that he is unable to discuss politely and constructively about, at the very least, this specific topic. This isn't "improving Wikipedia" in the slightest, and that should be everyone's main goal. There's no reason to allow this to further devolve into something even worse and there's plenty of other articles that can be improved. Salvidrim! ✉ 00:08, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support topic ban The problem is evident, even on this page. Johnuniq (talk) 00:59, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support topic ban - My conclusion after having read the various points put forth by editors here and at the RM is that a topic ban is appropriate in this situation. Cabe6403 ^{(Talk•Sign)} 10:28, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose per DreamGuy. And frankly I find the comments by User:TheRedPenOfDoom ("get over it" and "get a on with your life!") and even those by Cúchullain (in the way he describes Niemti's comments - which appear to be civil and reasonable - as "he has choked the talk page with incoherent rants") to be way more uncivil and sanction worthy than anything Niemti has said or done.Volunteer Marek 20:33, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
  • I highly suggest you take a look at the related RfC and see that RedPen and Cúchullain's comments, while not necessarily excusable, are small potatoes to the majority of Niemti's reported behavior. --ThomasO1989 (talk) 20:43, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
  • I don't accept that any of my comments, or Red's for that matter, have been uncivil, though I'll gladly tone it down in the future if it takes some edge off the discussion. It also bears reiteration that no one else in the discussion has made unfounded or inappropriate comments about the subject, gone off on tangents irrelevant to actual article improvements, refused to hear it when consensus is against them, or engaged in forum shopping when they don't get their way. That's the issue here; it's not one problem, it's a pattern of behavior.Cúchullain ^t/c 21:31, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
  • I certainly don't believe calling someone's responses "incoherent rants" is uncivil, especially in Niemti's case, where he almost seems to do it on purpose, or uncontrollably. In calmer past situations, I've kindly asked him to slow down and address issues one by one or with more concise responses, because I couldn't understand what he was trying to say, and he simply wouldn't. He's been told he's hard to understand when he responds like this, and he does it anyways, and yet isn't above complaining when no one sides with him. It's not an attack on him, it's merely an observation on how he handles himself. Sergecross73 msg me 23:57, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose per DreamGuy. I reviewed the diffs as well, and I see a lot of hair pulling over Niemti's responses, some of it uncivil, but nothing worthy of Niemti being TB'ed. Perhaps some new eyes whose owners blood pressure is 120/80 might be helpful at the talk page.  little green rosetta(talk)
  central scrutinizer  21:14, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
  • I echo the sentiments of ThomasO1989 and suggest that you take a look at the related RfC about his reported behavioral patterns. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 22:58, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
  • I count at least thirteen users, including myself, who have tried to debate Niemti regarding Sarkeesian, a few with a bit more intensity than roughness than necessary, but most of them have engaged with him in a civilized manner. If you want to see a particularly frustrating example of how Niemti has operated, take a look at Talk:Anita Sarkeesian/Archive 2#Dubious. Fifteen posts in 24 hours just in an attempt to hammer home his own views about what "university-level women's studies courses" means. And that's just one of the early ones from back in November. Peter ^Isotalo 06:31, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
• Comment. I think this is the situation when someone (Niemti) actually does a lot for the project, but he is stubborn, strongly opinionated at article talk pages, and he tells exactly what he thinks. However, the info he actually places in articles is good and comply with NPOV. What I did in such cases is allowing the editor (Niemti) to take a lead with creating the content, and discussing only as much as necessary. He suggests merging at article talk page? That's fine. Simply tell "no" and explain why. No need for a long discussion. He proposes and AfD? That's fine. Just vote "keep" and explain why. Hence my "oppose" above. My very best wishes (talk) 14:38, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Niemti is clearly driven by a personal disagreement with the basic tenets of gender studies and critical feminist analysis. And all because someone had the nerve to aim it at his favorite form of popular culture, video games. He's certainly not alone in this, and while he's not the kind of person who is sending death threats and anonymous misogynist abuse, his rants has an openly anti-feminist edge that equates analysis of gender roles with extremism and a host of other prejudices about academic media studies. In other words, you're suggesting that he be allowed to engage in activities that don't have anything to do with article improvement. Why exactly should we humor him, or anyone else, in that respect? Peter ^Isotalo 15:23, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
    • It was precisely my point that most of his mainspace edits are actually improvement of content (they have everything to do with article improvement), as evident from his successful participation in creation of good articles and his edits in another subject area where I collaborated with him a few years ago. As about rants at article talk pages (if any), it always takes two or more to tango. Tell and justify your opinion one time if this is something like RfC. My very best wishes (talk) 16:38, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
      • We're discussing a topic ban relating to the Sarkeesian article. Niemti's participation there has been extremely negative with little or no improvement. And the RfC suggests there's been disharmonious dealings in the GA process concerning video game articles. So no matter how many good edits there are elsewhere, they don't simply cancel out the looong sting of bad ones relating to feminist media criticism. I'm not sure what you feel you want justified, btw. Can you be more precise? Peter ^Isotalo 19:08, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Again, the quality of Niemti's article work, or any other content matter, isn't at issue here. The problem is his behavior at the talk page, which has been consistently disruptive on multiple fronts.Cúchullain ^t/c 14:28, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

• Comment. It is my understanding that Niemti voluntarily will not edit article about AS and its talk page [17]. I also assume that he will not edit anything about AS on other pages. I hope this thread can be closed. My very best wishes (talk) 19:33, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
  • His voluntary withdrawal can be revoked whenever he wants, a community topic ban can't. If he'd volunteered to do that at the start it would be different, but effectively cancelling consensus already established for a community topic ban with something voluntary he can choose to cancel at any time (and thus forcing the ban consensus to start again from scratch) seems a little too much like gaming the system. – NULL ‹talk›
    ‹edits› 01:08, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
    • I thought consensus is not determined by head count, but by the quality of argument. So, I am not sure if we have consensus. No, I do not think anyone can revoke their promise. My very best wishes (talk) 01:54, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
      • I am, of course, making my own evaluation of consensus in my comment above, based on the quality of the arguments presented. Whoever eventually closes the thread will make their own evaluation. My point, however, was that it's easy for someone looking at consensus for a ban to make a last minute act of apparent concession to try to mitigate the inevitable outcome. Offering to cooperate at the eleventh hour can easily be seen as a 'save your own hide' kind of thing, and doesn't mean the community automatically accepts that the ban is no longer necessary. Some people may not have faith that he'll be able to abide by it, particularly given his history. – NULL ‹talk›
        ‹edits› 02:06, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
  • It is pretty common that people on the verge of being banned/topic banned to suddenly volunteer to stop, but as Null said, it's not reason to stop this process, as he can chose to change his mind at any point, where it's not the case with a topic ban. I think it's especially important not to stop this discussion based on past comments Niemti has said. On the talk page, he has alluded to the fact that he may wait until things die down and go at it again, and that he believes since he edits the article more than anyone else in the discussion, his opinion counts for more. Sergecross73 msg me 13:16, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm not particularly inclined to take Niemti at his word, considering his lack of regard for other editors' input over the last two months. However, the bottom line is that he shouldn't touch anything related to Sarkeesian on Wikipedia, voluntarily or otherwise.Cúchullain ^t/c 14:28, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I am also not inclined to take Niemti's word for it, given his history of rejecting other editors' input over the past two months per Cuchullain. Per Sergecross, Niemti alluded to the fact that he might go at it again when things die down. The bottom line is that the editor should not touch the Sarkeesian article or anything related to her on Wikipedia, voluntarily or not. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 16:09, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

By telling this, you guys basically reject his good will offer. If you tell to Neimti that he has absolutely no obligation to keep his word, may be he indeed has no such obligation. I am now confused. My very best wishes (talk) 19:05, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps it would be more persuasive if Niemti said explicitly that he would avoid editing or commenting on the subject in the future. The linked comment says no such thing.Cúchullain ^t/c 20:59, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I am not telling that coming forward and criticizing himself in this environment is exactly like Struggle session (or "Comrade's court" in Russia), but in certain ethnic/national cultures this is something man would never do. My very best wishes (talk) 14:30, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Comment. This whole BLP thing is terribly overblown. What Niemti actually suggested was to merge or delete the article. That certainly would not hurt the person. Banning a long term well-intended contributor because of this is over the top. My very best wishes (talk) 13:32, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
  • The "BLP thing" is certainly an issue, and one of Niemti's making. Taken together, his disparaging and unsourced comments about the subject form a pattern of behavior that shouldn't be acceptable on Wikipedia (and of course that's on top of all his other disruptive behaviors).Cúchullain ^t/c 14:28, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
    • I did not read whole discussion (tl;dr, sorry), but in the most "incriminating" diff above Noemti simply explains why he thinks the person is not notable (hence the suggested merging of page). Yes, he uses available sources to explain his position. Some of them may not be reliable, but this is always happens in articles about people of marginal notability. As about his tone, this is a matter of personal taste. It is pretty common that people are excited during such discussions. Bringing everyone here is not an option. My very best wishes (talk) 19:49, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't regard that as the "most incriminating" diff, it's just particularly illustrative of the various disruptive behaviors in which he's engaged. Honestly, his tone is the least of it - it's far more serious that he's making unsourced negative comments on a BLP, using the talk page as a FORUM, ignoring the input of others, and engaging in forum shopping to get his way.Cúchullain ^t/c 20:59, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

"Some"? None of the sources are reliable. The topic is gender studies, not video game reviewing. Period. The opinions of the gaming community at large is not our concern anymore than John/Jane Doe's kitchen conversations about... whatever. The only major difference between these two is that the gaming community is good at loudly proclaiming its disapproval in online forums. That does not make those loud claims relevant or reliable to Wikipedia as sources. Why is this so hard to accept? Why does a dozen or more users have to spend week after week saying the same thing to the same argumentative person?

Peter ^Isotalo 07:58, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

No, the subject is not gender study, but biography. Niemti makes an argument that person is not notable. I personally disagree with his argument, but it is very common that people stray away in such discussions or make an argument unsupported by RS. Bringing them here is counterproductive if the person acts in a good faith and contributes a lot to the project, as in this case. This is because our goal is to maximize participation, editor retention and ultimately creation of content. My very best wishes (talk) 14:30, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

The topic of any "criticism" should be the same as the work that is being criticised. As such, trying to introduce any sort of criticism in this article involves gender studies. Thus, in relation to what constitutes a reliable source, as Peter correctly states above, the topic is gender studies and not video game reviewing. DonQuixote (talk) 03:15, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

• Stongly oppose topic ban: As an uninvolved editor, I think it is premature IMHO to go directly to an indef topic ban (without even suggesting 3-month ban), which smacks of forever silencing an opponent in a wp:POV_dispute. Meanwhile, the use of non-wp:RS sources, as mentioned above, indicates that all sides of the dispute should request mediation to use sourced text, or perhaps merge the article for lack of sources which sustain a separate page. Also, should disregard "Support" !votes from involved editors, as this seems an atttempt to force the outcome of a "fair fight" by censuring opponents. -Wikid77 (talk) 14:50, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
  • If Niemti was an outspoken creationist who engaged in destructive campaigns for months in an article about evolution, would you also describe a call for a topic ban as "forever silencing an opponent"? Peter ^Isotalo 15:39, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Once again, content issues aren't up for discussion here. This proposal is about Niemti's behavior on the talk page, examples of which are highlighted above.Cúchullain ^t/c 15:46, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Also, it should be made clear that making positive contributions is never an excuse for disruptive behavior, especially on the talk page of Anita Sarkeesian; the examples of which are shown above are all there, clear as crystal. As explicitly stated by Cuchullain, Niemti's disparaging and unsourced comments about the subject form a pattern of disruptive behavior, which is not acceptable anywhere on Wikipedia. And unfortunately, his disruption is part of a pattern of similar negative and unsourced comments about a BLP along with various other disruptive behaviors that have continued for over two months. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 19:45, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support, although, I have no problem with making the topic ban time limited. The fact that after all of this discussion, including Niemti's own participation in, that Niemti now thinks that AfD is the right treatment shows that he is only here to POV push. The civility of the comments is wholly irrelevant; WP:CIVIL is only one of our pillars, and WP:NPOV is another. Niemti has argued tendentiously to include comments from a source that clearly does not meet WP:RS and certainly doesn't meet the higher level of scrutiny required by WP:BLP. Now, because he's not getting his way, he thinks he'll take to it to AfD, despite the fact that such a nomination would be WP:SNOW kept. Civil POV pushing is, in fact, one of our biggest problems on Wikipedia. Here we have a crystal clear example of it happening, and thus we should take the opportunity to stop it, now. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:00, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

What AfD are you talking about? Niemti said he would rather not edit this article at all [18]. My very best wishes (talk) 01:18, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support indef topic ban. Let's not mess around with BLPs, especially one like this that has already been vandalised to the extent that the vandalism hit the news. WP:BLPBAN exists for a reason. Andreas JN466 09:25, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Indeed, this page has been vandalized at one point, just as many other wikipedia articles, but why do you want to hold Niemti responsible? It was not him who vandalized this page. To the conrary, he contributed a lot and positively in this BLP article (I mean the article itself, while the talk page discussion was indeed heated and sometimes strayed away from improvement the article). Once again, he only suggested merging sometime ago, which has been hotly debated. This is not vandalism, not a BLP violation, and certainly does not hurt the person. My very best wishes (talk) 14:33, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

What I am holding him responsible for is waffling on on a BLP talk page about how the subject should have "ignored" the appalling harassment she suffered, including here, or done things like "counterattack literally with her vagina". Get a grip. Andreas JN466 19:10, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

He was comparing and contrasting how other people responded to very similar experiences to how Sarkeesian reacted when discussing whether there should be an article about her. Another woman who was attacked in a very similar fashion did "counter-attack with her vagina" in a manner of speaking and others do ignore this type of vitriol as it is rather typical.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 19:40, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

In a manner of highly inept and inappropriate speaking, perhaps. [19] Saying here on Wikipedia that a woman who has been harassed, including here on Wikipedia, could have ignored it or "counter-attacked literally using her vagina" instead of raising a "huge moral panic" is certainly considerably more inept and inappropriate than Wikipedia should tolerate. Andreas JN466 19:51, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

You can repeat this until you are blue in the face, but it won't change a thing. His statements, in context, are far less serious than how they are being portrayed out of context. For the context, I ask people to simply google "Jennifer Hepler vagina" to understand that comment. At best you can fault him for using "literally" as an emphatic.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 20:12, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

This is difficult for me to judge since I came from another language and culture. I saw one of these shows on US TV performed by a women, so I have to assume such language is permissible in US culture. My very best wishes (talk) 20:56, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Trust me, you do not tell a woman who has suffered sexually motivated cyber harassment that she could have "ignored it", or "counterattacked using her vagina", not unless you are socially completely inept or worse. The West is stil on the same planet as the East, you know. Harassment is considered a problem in both places. [20] Perhaps Wikipedia is an exception. Andreas JN466 01:20, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Andreas, I understand where your frustrations are coming from. This article is a sensitive BLP that has been the target of harassment last May. And as I have stated, positive contributions is never an excuse for disruptive behavior on the talk page, which has been clearly pointed out by Cuchullain. Trying to introduce any sort of criticism in this article involves gender studies. As such, in relation to what constitutes a reliable source, the topic is gender studies and not video game reviewing. Unfortunately, the quality of Niemti's work or any other content matter, is not at issue here. The problem is with his seriously disruptive behavior at the talk page, where Niemti has making unsourced negative comments on a BLP, using the talk page as a FORUM, ignoring the input of others, and engaging in forum shopping to get his way while he is currently the subject of an RFC. He was also adding comments from a source, Destructoid, that clearly does not meet WP:RS and certainly doesn't meet the higher level of scrutiny required by the BLP policy. On top of that, his sources have all sorts of issues in regards to WP:RS, WP:VG/RS, and WP:NPOV and they should not be used. No thanks, we don't want this type of disruptive behavior here. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 23:05, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. On top of that he has made three times more edits to her talk page than anybody else [21] ... way to go. Andreas JN466 01:20, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

• If that was indeed a contentious unsourced material about a living person (I am still not sure that it was), why did not anyone just removed immediately this thing from article talk page, as should be done per policy, instead of bringing this here? End of story. That's why some part of this looks to me as WP:Battle. My very best wishes (talk) 04:01, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

I actually though about entirely removing some of the threads that Niemti engaged in, but that's surrounded by multiple restrictions (see WP:TPOC). It would most likely only have provoked Niemti, and it would likely have been considered too high-handed even by unsympathetic editors. And there was the occasional glimmer of something semi-relevant in Niemti's talkpage activities, which complicated issues even if it was ultimately overshadowed by the unbearable amounts of opinionated ranting and disparaging commentary about the article subject.

Peter ^Isotalo 16:33, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose Give me a break. Nothing he said is over the line. He was disputing the notability of Sarkeesian as a biographical subject. Her reaction to harassment does appear to be the main source of her notability and that arising due to her video series so his is a reasonable position to take. Suggesting that it should not be a bio, but an article on her experience or video series is rather reasonable.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 19:40, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose topic ban, support making this a strong shot above the bow. This is a sensitive BLP, there seems to be a lot of jealousy between the editor and the subject, the criticism on the talk page comes close to rising to the level of inappropriate discourse. Slowly back away from the cliff, my friend... Carrite (talk) 20:04, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
• Per Andreas, below. Oppose for now. I'm half-way through the talk page archive and, though his suggestion she should have ignored the flaming is stupid and patronising, he has removed unsourced puffery about her work being used in "university-level women's studies courses" against significant opposition, and removed the claim she is best known for her video blog Feminist Frequency, both of which are significant improvements. Claims that he breaches WP:NOTAFORUM, at least as they relate to comments he's made in the first half of the archive, are mistaken. Editors on the page didn't get the pertinence of the points he was making. Perhaps he reels out of control further down the archive but I've seen no evidence of that in this thread. I have to go out now and will comment further when I get a chance. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 05:17, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Note that her work is indeed used in "university-level women's study courses". Source: [22]. Examples: [23], [24], [25], [26], [27], [28], [29], [30] (for this course). Note that the last one for example is from 2011, predating her harassment. Would you accept these as evidence that her work is so used, and that it is her work that is considered of interest by these universities, rather than merely the fact that she was trolled? Andreas JN466 10:28, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Awesome. Thanks for proving me to be a superficial fool yet again. :) --Anthonyhcole (talk) 10:54, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Don't mention it, Anthony. :) Best, Andreas JN466 11:02, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Quite obviously, Neimti was not logical in his argument. That's why I noted above that I disagree with him. However, this is not a reason for topic ban in my opinion. My very best wishes (talk) 13:42, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support topic ban. This is unacceptable behavior for a BLP article. BLPs should have stricter RS standards than other articles, not weaker. Most video game blogs do not meet BLP standards, especially when you're talking about criticism of the article subject. Writing personally disparaging rants about the article subject on the talk page is also not appropriate for a BLP. Considering Niemti's persistence, I'm not sure why we're only considering a topic ban. Kaldari (talk) 02:06, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• Strongly reliable sources are needed for claims about living people, not claims about someone disagreeing with a living person's argument. Noting that a video game blog disagrees with her characterization of x video game is not a BLP issue. Our consideration in that instance should be whether the view represented in the source is not a prominent opinion or if it is too inflammatory. I mean seriously, read this thing. Does that read like something that is absolutely horrific and unacceptable for an article about a living person? Basically the source goes, "I am sorry my dear madame, but I believe you are quite mistaken in your characterization of electronic entertainment. You see, these interactive moving pictures to which you refer are actually quite progressive with regards to gender relations. Ho-ho, cheerio!" *sipsa da tea*--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 08:16, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• "Horrific" is your description, but it's definitely unacceptable as a commentary on Sarkeesian's analysis. Why? Because it's a video game blog with zero credentials commenting on the field of gender studies, the main topic of the article (see comparison to Hot Rod Magazine commenting on the theory of relativity earlier in this discussion). Politeness doesn't automatically translate to reliability or relevance. Peter ^Isotalo 09:46, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
• Do note that WP:VG/RS states that Destructoid is classified as "situational". Therefore, that source is not really considered a reliable source to be used on a biography of a living person. It is a blog with zero credentials commenting on the field of gender studies, which is the main topic on the article, and using it as commentary on Sarkeesian's analysis is unacceptable. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 13:32, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• Sorry, but your interpretation of DA RULZ is terribly misguided. Many in the gaming community do not have degrees in gender studies, that does not mean their opinions are irrelevant. The opinion of members of the gaming community with regards to her claims about video games has some element of relevance don't you think? Destructoid would be a reliable source for claims about what a prominent member of the gaming community thinks about Sarkeesian's claims about video games. Also, BLP does not say you cannot use these sources on a biography of a living person, but that they cannot be used to back up claims regarding a living person. Niemti was not talking about using it to make a claim about a living person, but rather to make a claim about some other person's opinion regarding some claims a living person made about video games. WP:BLP does not apply to that sort of claim.--The Devil's Advocate _{tlk. cntrb.} 17:20, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• Comment (from an involved editor) - The real issue as I see it comes from concerns that were raised during the RfC/U that one of Niemti's central interests is in adding information glorifying the sexual characteristics of female video game characters. I haven't looked into these claims because I think Niemti generally understands about proper sourcing and I've assumed good faith that the articles properly merited coverage of these aspects. But if these concerns are sustainable and there is a pattern of sexist editing then a limited-duration topic ban might be a good idea as a warning. Given Niemti's prolific editing and the frequency of his conflicts with other editors, this kind of non-NPOV editing could be very harmful. It all depends on whether or not there is a pattern here, though. If this neutrality issue is just a one-off thing then I'll take Niemti's withdrawal from the talk page as a sign that he's dropped the WP:STICK. -Thibbs (talk) 18:09, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Close discussion?

The above discussion has been lasting for over a week as I post here. While I still support the topic ban, I have posted a request at WP:ANRFC for an uninvolved administrator to assess and close this discussion. Furthermore, while almost all of the recent Sarkeesian discussions have been archived at Talk:Anita Sarkeesian/Archive 2, I would suggest that everyone should take a deep breath, relax, and wait for the closing admin. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 22:56, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

You promised to one of admins not follow edits by Niemty, do not you remember? My very best wishes (talk) 13:42, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

With all due respect, I do not care about that anymore, as I have already moved on and that case against me was not substantiated. I am still waiting for the closing administrator to assess and close the above discussion. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 15:28, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

As long as people keep on bringing up issues regarding Niemti to ANI, RFC, or WP:VG, or with Niemti bringing attention to himself with going to WP:RM, you can hardly accuse Sjones of "following his edits". If only Niemti wasn't constantly making a scene or stirring up trouble in our field of editing. Sergecross73 msg me 15:41, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I see that you guys have lot of common interests, including many user talk pages and even Organ theft in Kosovo... My very best wishes (talk) 18:49, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

(sigh)... Really, I would rather put this off-topic discussion to rest, as this is seriously getting us nowhere fast. We are talking about a topic ban proposal. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 19:11, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

MVBW, if you have an issue regarding Sjone's behavior, bring it to his talk page, or open up a new ANI report. It doesn't belong in this discussion. Sergecross73 msg me 20:55, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

I know how you feel Serge. I just don't want to discuss this issue anymore and I have already moved on. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 20:59, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

No, that's fine, I'm not saying you should have to, I'm just saying that if MVBW wants to discuss it, this isn't the place to do so. (If he does choose a better avenue, you can still opt out of discussing it with him all the same.) Sergecross73 msg me 21:05, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Oh, I see. If I don't want to discuss this matter, that is completely my decision. Thanks. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 21:16, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

I only wanted to tell that I agree with comment by User:Wikid77 above. He suggested to disregard all "Support" "!votes from involved editors, as this seems an attempt to force the outcome of a "fair fight" by censuring opponents." (see above). For example, this editor, who was missing for a couple of months, came specifically to post his !support vote here. My very best wishes (talk) 21:54, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

As it has been stated numerous times in this thread (by myself and others), the quality of Niemti's work or any other content matter, is not the case here. The actual issue is with his disruptive behavior on Sarkeesian's talk page, and we cannot allow this disruption to continue even if he returns to the article. On Sarkeesian's talk page, it is clear enough that there are serious problems. While it is clear that the number of upset people is at least in the tens; it could be unclear if that might represent a consensus across those who pay attention to these matters, although some uninvolved users have commented on the situation. With this in mind, I would like to make a request that previously uninvolved editors and administrators get involved and read up on this and comment. Please take a look at the recent discussions, and the ongoing RFC, as well as the current situation. More input from uninvolved administrators and editors will help determine community exhaustion of patience, and we can't allow this discussion to languish another week. We need a clear consensus on this matter from both involved and uninvolved users. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 22:10, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

MVBV, your suggestion is makes absolutely no sense. By your argument, any time one editor was disruptive, and a half dozen or more tried to stop the disruption, we would automatically ignore whatever those good faith, productive editors were doing. So all an editor has to do is to cause problems on a talk page, and suddenly they become untouchable? Seriously, think through the actual consequence of your suggestion. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:56, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, the suggestion was originally Wikid77's, that MVBV advocated. Still, you're both entirely wrong. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:58, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

• No, that is not what me or Wikid77 said (please see above, and I provided a couple of links that should be a matter of concern: [31], [32]). I will not repeat anything, but would like to notice that in a case any BLP violations (that was the reason for this thread) one suppose to either remove the contentious poorly sourced information immediately and/or post the matter on BLP noticeboard for community discussion, instead of bringing it here. My very best wishes (talk) 05:52, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

This is really getting us nowhere fast. For the umpteenth time, content issues or the quality of Niemti's work are not any of our concerns. It's about a topic ban regarding his disruptive behavior. I don't want to push this too hard but I think the best option is that we should just wait for an uninvolved admin to take a look at the proposal, determine the consensus and close it as I think this discussion has already gone on long enough. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 14:11, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

• Comment: I'm definitely seeing some bias in the comments provided in the original report and I think they're beyond what we should expect from an editor striving from neutrality. I agree the edits are become tendentious too. His edits seem to go beyond a reading of the sources and are actively making the argument that Sarkeesian should "get over" the harassment (I'm getting a strong "elevator" vibe here...). Also, I find the hero worship of Jim Sterling amusing, as Sterling would be the first to admit he's a professional troll. Sceptre ^(talk) 02:29, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

If i was an administrator, here's what i'd do if he just got off a ban: 1. warn him. 2. if he ignores it, then ban him again for longer. (hopefully it doesn't come to this one though)3. If after his longer ban has lifted he continues to do this crap, then either make a super long ban or an indefinate ban. how do i know this? based on all the cases i've seen here sinse 2005 or so, i'd think that that would be the ideal actions, although i hope it doesn't get to an indefinate ban. Alien Arceus 05:05, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

No offense, but you probably ought to figure out the difference between a WP:BLOCK and aWP:BAN before you go about giving advice. (Also, he's not fresh off of a block or a ban, so your scenario is fundamentally wrong either way.) Sergecross73 msg me 14:13, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Sergio, i've been reading this pageo sinse 2005eo, and know the difference. Alien Arceus 15:33, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Why are you using them wrong then? And it doesn't matter how long you've been here, it doesn't change the fact that you don't seem to understand the basic premise of what's going on here since he's didn't "just got off a ban" as you worded it. Sergecross73 msg me 15:42, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Second request for closure

Seconding the request for closure from an uninvolved Admin. There have been a few good comments lately but they're getting to be few and far between now. Please? Thanks... Sergecross73 msg me 15:52, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. Just about all aspects of this case have by now been processed quite thoroughly.

Peter ^Isotalo 17:03, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Agreed - All aspects of the case has been processed thoroughly. It's really time to close this. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 17:44, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• Yes, there's plenty of discussion to determine consensus. We're mostly just going back and forth now.Cúchullain ^t/c 18:24, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

and it took you guies this long to figure that out? i figured it out a while ago tha this is going nowhere. i smelt it as clear as day. Alien Arceus 18:27, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Brocach ignoring discussions and blocks for POV-pushing: time for topic ban

User:Brocach (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) is making war around Gaelic Athletic Association-related articles. He is ignoring discussion, just to push his own POV. There is no effective support for his moves but he just invents excuses. By now he seems so frustrated, that he started vandalising articles. On the 19th, he was blocked from editing to stop him from edit warring over several article. In that same war User:Laurel Lodged (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) was involved and blocked. They were involved in one of the most silly edits wars I have ever seen: Talk:Paudie Butler#What on earth are you fighting over?. Especially because Laurel Lodged was clearly right and Brocach clearly wrong. Both appealed the ban, both saw their appeal denied. Unfortunately, Brocach did not learn anything from his block and quickly resumed his disruptive edits and went on with, among others, a clear declaration of war.

An overview from the relevant edits after the block:

Insults

• [33], [34]

Move without agreement or consensus

• [35], [36], [37],

Changing correct links to redirects/changing correct categories into wrong categories

• [38],

Other disruptive edits

• [39], [40], [41] (later used to claim that people did not live in North Tipperary, while it was de facto there from 1838), [42], [43],

This drama is already going on for a year now. With pages moved back and forth, edit wars and a very nasty atmosphere.

I certainly acknowledge that a block is counter-productive but to restore peace, I request a long term topic ban for Brocach for all articles related to the Gaelic Athletic Association. The Banner talk 02:40, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

And now, as a kind of sidekick, User:Finnegas (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has started changing correct links to redirects/changing correct categories into wrong categories (like [44], [45], [46], [47], [48], [49], [50], [51], [52], [53]and [54]. That I named it work as a sidekick is due to the fact that Finnegas has the explicit support of Brocach... The Banner talk 03:17, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Due to Brocachs habit to remove everything from his talkpage that he doesn't like, I present here the proof that I have informed him. The Banner talk 03:21, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Quite a lot of accusations there so it will take some time to respond.

I have never vandalised any article on Wikipedia. Anyone who looks at my edit history will find a long record of reverting vandalism. Some examples: [55], [en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ireland&diff=prev&oldid=533547170], [56], [57], [58], [59], [60] and on and on.

I am not ignoring discussion. In relation to the GAA articles, most of the edits that User:The Banner (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) objects to are actually reverts of previous controversial edits, generally made by User:Laurel Lodged (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) without discussion, and generally moving articles about the GAA away from the common name of the topic - typically, renaming football competitions by inserting "GAA" within the competition name. Generally when I have moved things back to their common name, I have opened a thread on the talk page.

The POV I am "pushing" is Wikipedia policy: WP:COMMONNAME. Nothing particularly controversial about that.

It is absolutely not the case that there is no support for my reverts of controversial moves. In the most recent discussion of this, here, you will see clear majority support for the reverts. That in itself should be enough to establish that the topic ban belongs with the editor who made the original controversial moves without discussion, and then busted a gut trying to undo all the reverts, namely Laurel Lodged.

Turning to the Tipperary question: for those unfamiliar with the sports, Gaelic football, hurling etc. are organised in Ireland on a traditional 32-county basis, not in line with newer administrative counties such as North Tipperary. Top-level inter-county players play for Tipperary, and the category for them has long been "Tipperary hurlers", just as it is for "Dublin hurlers", "Galway hurlers" and so on. Because only the GAA organises hurling, no-one had ever thought it necessary to change a category name until - guess who - Laurel Lodged, without any discussion, renamed that one category "Tipperary GAA hurlers" and moved many articles to that page. This now sits as a completely anomalous category: every other county lists hurlers in the long-established form, "Carlow hurlers" and so on.

Next, Laurel Lodged, as ever without any discussion, started moving individual Tipperary sportspeople from the long-established and well-populated category Sportspeople from County Tipperary into two new categories of his own creation, namely Sportspeople from North Tipperary and Sportspeople from South Tipperary. Again, of course, without discussion; and again creating an anomaly, in that none of the other Irish sportspeople by county categories use the new local government counties; they all use the traditional 32 counties.

The behaviour of Laurel Lodged in changing literally hundreds of GAA articles and refusing to engage in discussion frustrated me greatly; as my history shows, I have made a significant contribution to GAA coverage here. I regret that on one occasion I re-reverted a Laurel Lodged move repeatedly, following which we were both briefly banned.

I have not "resumed disruptive edits" nor "declared war" - follow the link provided by The Banner and you will find me quite properly taking the issue of Tipperary changes to the relevant talk page, and as it happens, securing support while Laurel Lodged did not.

Next, as for "insults": the first link provided is to me stating the incontrovertible fact that Laurel Lodged keeps changing pages without discussion, and it will be seen that I did not use any abusive language; the second link provided is to me rebuking what I refer to as the "disgusting behaviour" of another editor who, on the talk page of an unrelated (non-GAA) topic, referred to me as "arsehole" and, in another edit, "a stupid cunt". Now there's an insult; but I was not the person who made it, nor would any reasonable person think that referring to that as "disgusting behaviour" was an insult.

My accuser then links to supposed "Moves without agreement or consensus". But all three links were on the basis of consensus that anyone can check at the reference already given.

My next offence is "Changing correct links to redirects/changing correct categories into wrong categories", a plural accusation with but a single link, and this turns out to be, yet again, a matter of reverting changes made without discussion of consensus by, need I say, Laurel Lodged. The usual pattern applies in that I am the first one to take the issue to the talk page, and Laurel Lodged refuses to engage there.

As for the "Other disruptive edits", the first two again were reverts that were discussed and supported here, unlike the original moves which had not been discussed. The next is, far from being a "disruptive edit", a perfectly normal edit to an article dealing with local government history in County Tipperary. Looking at it now I see a little typo, which I have fixed; perhaps that what was thought "disruptive" but anyone checking the history will see that it was a simple mistake with no harm intended or done, and heaven help us if every case of clumsy typing is construed as vandalism. The next is, again, a normal and innocent edit to the template for Derry GAA clubs, ensuring that text appeared in black rather than red as per WP:NAVBOXCOLOUR. Any problem with that? My last "disruption" was to add a factually accurate, and sourced, improvement to wording around the ISO code for "Ulster" - an obscure enough topic, but interesting for some, and worth getting right, which it now is. In short: these accusations of disruption are completely spurious.

I therefore insist that no case has been made for topic-banning me, least of all on a theme, the GAA, where I have made a substantial and worthwhile contribution. However, because of Laurel Lodged's long history of moving GAA articles without seeking consensus, reverting moves back, and refusing to engage on the relevant talk pages, I would be hugely relieved if he were topic-banned from the GAA, at least for a few months. I'm proposing that here, and notifying him on his talk page. Heading above amended accordingly. Brocach (talk) 12:50, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Incidentally, I have no connection whatever with Finnegas and if The Banner has some problem with him/her, this is not the place to discuss it. Brocach (talk) 13:06, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

This is the usual modus operandi of mr. Brocach: I am the good guy, I am the victim, WP:IDIDNOTHEARTHAT and you guys are all wrong, had been wrong all the times and will be wrong forever more. The Banner talk 13:31, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

You've said your piece; I would prefer that your proposal, and mine, be decided on the facts. Anyone who wants to know my "usual modus operandi" can look at my thousands of contributions to Wikipedia. Please keep the revised heading above as this section contains a counter-proposal. Brocach (talk) 14:04, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Brocach, please don't change the title as it breaks links to this discussion. File your own request when you want to bring Laurel Lodged to AN/I, don't hijack my filing. The Banner talk 14:34, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

I certainly wouldn't want to break links to this discussion, but it is perfectly legitimate for me to respond to a ban proposal by showing that another user is the real problem and should be topic-banned. For me to repeat all of that in a separate posting would be a waste of everyone's time, particularly when Laurel Lodged is aware of this discussion (since you notified him of it within four minutes of proposing that I be banned). I have therefore placed a subheading for my counter-proposal immediately below your heading, and have verified that links still work. Brocach (talk) 17:04, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, now you only made a mess of my filing, making it appear that I filed the request. Do you mind the sub-header to below this edits and file your counter-request there? Although they are related, it would be confusing to have two requests in one thread as people will have difficulties responding to the right request. The Banner talk 17:27, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

I really didn't mean to cause any confusion and don't think I've done so. I think that the difference in heading level will make that clear. But for the benefit of anyone who has been interested enough to read down this far, can I make it 100% clear that The Banner wants to ban me, and I want to topic-ban Laurel Lodged? Brocach (talk) 22:49, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

I did file a request for a topic ban, but that will not say that I will pursue it for the full 100%. I believe in Good Faith, so I still hope that you are willing to change your behaviour regarding the GAA voluntarily. The Banner talk 23:33, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Really excellent news there. Of course I intend to continue, as I always have, operating in good faith. Can I ask you to review the points you made against me above, and my replies; delete any exchanges above that relate to points that have been answered to your satisfaction, and set out which (if any) grounds you still believe justify a topic ban? If there are none, I would ask you to withdraw this request, so that I can reframe my ban request for Laurel Lodge and pursue it without involving you. Brocach (talk) 00:51, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

It means as much: show me (and prove of a reasonable time) that you really stop with this nonsense, revert all your actions yourself and start behaving like an adult. If not, sorry. Your combative behaviour has disrupted Wikipedia long enough. The Banner talk 10:47, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

"Rage - Goddess, sing the rage of Peleus' son Achilles, murderous, doomed, that cost the Achaeans countless losses hurling down to the House of Death so many sturdy souls, great fighter's souls, but made their bodies carrion feats for the dogs and birds and the will of Zeus was moving towards its end."

What is the cause of all the warring? Rage. The final straw for Brocach was when a decision at WP:CFD went against him here. This touched on the area of (GAA) and involved a decision to change the name from "Tipperary hurlers" to Category:Tipperary GAA hurlers.

I took the rather unusal step of saying in my block appeal that "Perhaps the purpose would be best achieved by simply imposing a topic ban on all GAA related articles on both of us until a decision one way or the other had been reached at a neutral forum like WikiProject:Gaelic games or WikiProject:Ireland". Only a few hours of the unblock had expired that my hopes that the block would have a sobering effect on Brocach were in vain. Reluctantly, I must now request that my suggestion be actioned. I am prepared to go into voluntary exile if the same temporary sentance will be passed on Brocach (and his inept sidekick Finnegas) so that a holy peace may descend upon the GAA articles and categories.

He has gone around numerous article writing the same whiney thing on the talk page. This essentially bemoans the injustice of the decision that went against him at WP:CFD. By the time that I saw this entry Colm Bonnar whining, I was getting a mite tetchy in my responses. And so to Noel Lane where Brocach's rationale was "a player for GAA county of Tipperary". This is not in dispute, but it's beside the point. What is most definitely in dispute is that he is not "from County Tipperary", which no longer exists as a unit of local government, but from North Tipperary. The two entities are different. Brocach likes to pretend that the two are essentially identical. He refuses to listen to all arguments to the contrary. This explains why I peppered a lot of my reversions with the epitheth WP:ICANTHEARYOU. In Patrick Maher, the difference between the two entities was again explained in my reversion rationale: "As a county hurer he is listed with Tipp GAA. Geographically, he is from NT. A horse of a different colour". Further examples are Aidan Butler and Sportspeople from County Tipperary.

I will copy the text from my appeal for the second major point of contention. I realised that the cat "Loughmore-Castleiney Gaelic footballers" should not even be in the cat "Sportspeopple from North Tipperary". This moment of clarity came to me when I reviewed the article on Tony Reddin who was born in County Galway (i.e. he is from Galway) but who played hurling for his club Lorrha-Dorrha GAA which is governed by Tipperary GAA. So while it is right and proper that he be a member of Category:Tipperary GAA hurlers, it is not right that he be a member of "Sportspeopple from County Tipperary"; instead he is correctly listed as a member of "Sportspeopple from County Galway". Moving from the particular to the general, I deduced that one may not assume that just because a person is a member of a GAA club that happens to be in Tipperary that all members of of that club must necessarily be from Tipperary. I wrote this in the edit commentary as "a club is not a person". Again Brocach refused to acknowedge this logic and continued to revert. See Category:Lorrha-Dorrha hurlers, where the rationale provided was "Tony Reddin is from Galway. So not all members of Tipp GAA are automatically from County Tipp. A club is not a person". See also Category:Loughmore-Castleiney Gaelic footballers, where the rationale provided was "a CLUB IS NOT A PERSON". Thank you. Laurel Lodged (talk) 22:18, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

From everything that I have said above, you will understand that I profoundly disagree with Laurel Lodged about how people who play on Tipperary GAA teams should be listed (by the county that they play or played for, Tipperary, or by the current local government district that they were born in, or would have been born in had it existed when they were born). No point going into all the details of that issue again. This discussion is not about whether this or that category should be used; but the changes made by Laurel Lodged at Tipperary categories have put it out of sync with every other county in Ireland, and he has made scores if not hundreds of other changes, all undiscussed, that moved articles and categories (dealing with Gaelic games away from their former and proper locations.

What this is about, is (1) whether a user (Laurel Lodged) should be free to move dozens of long-settled articles and refuse to engage on the respective talk pages when that turns out to be controversial; (2) whether that user should be topic-banned for a while until he learns to respect the views of other editors; (3) whether an editor (me) who moves articles back to their original and long-established names, after controversial moves that weren't discussed, should be regarded as a vandal and banned.

Check out (if you have some hours to spare) every instance where a Gaelic Athletic Association sporting competition has been renamed. I believe that in every instance, you will find that any moves away from the original title that were made without discussion were made by one single obsessive editor, Laurel Lodged, for reasons that cannot easily be aligned to the interests of readers or the notion of Wikipedia as an encyclopaedia. In most instances, I moved the article back to its settled title, only to be reverted again without discussion. In most such cases, I opened a discussion topic on the talk page, and Laurel Lodged did not engage. Here are a few examples, and you will see the pattern: [61], [62], [63], [64]... I could go on and on. As noted above, I canvassed views on this wholesale moving and the most recent discussion is here, where you will see that my reverts had consensus on their side.

If you want Wikipedia to be the preserve of those who have a really strong point of view about what things should be called (but aren't, in real life), and for which they really need to control Wikipedia as a platform to impose their view on the stupid masses, please vote to ban me. If you want Wikipedia to be as accurate as possible, give people who care about accurate coverage of the GAA a break, and send Laurel Lodged off to annoy someone else for a few months. Whatever way you vote, the Leinster Senior Football Championship will continue, in real life, to be the Leinster Senior Football Championship, rather that whatever User:Laurel Lodged wants to call it today. Brocach (talk) 00:40, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

• I would remind everyone in this thread of WP:TLDR. If you want to attract the attention of other editors, walls of text are unlikly to do it.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:46, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

• When I see the words "POV-pushing" and "topic ban" in a section heading I expect the proposer to have a particularly strong case. When I see something like "Especially because Laurel Lodged was clearly right and Brocach clearly wrong" I think the proposer is most unlikely to have a strong case. And sure enough, that is the case here. I think the most intelligent sentence in the proposal is "What on earth are you fighting over?" This is a content dispute, essentially between three editors: the proposer agrees with Laurel Lodged and disagrees with Brocach. It should be dealt with on the Dispute resolution noticeboard. --Scolaire (talk) 08:55, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

• I have been observing this dispute from a distance, and agree with the previous contributor (Scolaire). There is more heat than light being generated by these interminable arguments. However, there are two main protagonists putting their cases forward, and I don't think that Brocach should be the only person facing censure. Hohenloh ⁺ 12:05, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

• Having read The Banner's response to my suggestion on his talk page, I have to wonder if WP:BOOMERANG doesn't come into play here? Scolaire (talk) 12:56, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I am sorry if I have disappointed you by not being convinced that there is a solution possible by mediation. More drama, more words typed, but I see no evidence from Brocach and your side that a compromise is possible. Sorry. The Banner talk 14:00, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't have a side. I don't edit-war. Sorry. Scolaire (talk) 14:14, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

This is clearly a content dispute that has spiralled out of control over a long period of time. How long has this been going on? A year? More> It revolves around a tiny point - the definition and use of the term "county" in Ireland. I suggest that a ban is put on any more moves, renames, relinks and discussions, and that the matter is discussed at WikiProject Ireland until consensus is reached. That's actually the best and correct place for this. --HighKing (talk) 13:20, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

A year? July 2011 was when we apparently resolved the problem of counties! At that point it had been going on non-stop since at least June 2010. --Scolaire (talk) 14:14, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I actually agree with most of what has been written in the last few postings. And I would again remind you all that it was I who I took the rather unusal step of suggesting that I topic ban myself. This must surely be a record for ANI. As it is obvious that even a 48 ban cannot produce the required level of contrition or even meditation in Brocach, nothing other solution will give us all the breathing space - free of vandalism - that we all need. Laurel Lodged (talk) 22:19, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

While I strongly commend LL's volunteering for a topic ban, well deserved and hopefully long-lasting, I'm not taking the same line. The innuendo above that I was involved in "vandalism" needs to be fleshed out here and now. If one instance of vandalism by me is shown, in relation to GAA topics or anything else, I still won't volunteer for a ban but I will accept one. Brocach (talk) 22:31, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

At your service: [65], [66] and [67]. Deliberately damaging an article by removing a correct link and replace is by a redirect is in my opinion vandalism. (issue: "Drom, County Tipperary" redirects to "Drom, North Tipperary") It can be a mistake ONCE, but not multiple times and certainly not when deliberately removing the mention of North Tipperary at all. The Banner talk 16:15, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Nope. Even if it was a mistake – which is only your opinion – it is not vandalism. Examples of typical vandalism are adding irrelevant obscenities and crude humor to a page, illegitimately blanking pages, and inserting obvious nonsense into a page. That a good faith edit is "in your opinion vandalism" doesn't make it vandalism. Scolaire (talk) 23:51, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

I'd support a more general topic-ban for a month at least just to encourage Brocach to engage more and stop consistently reverting and pushing when they are in the wrong. Take for example their recent 48-hour block for breaking 3RR. This and this from BrownHairedGirl shows Brocach's poor attitude when it comes to editing and discussion quite well. Obviously these are not the only instances, but I'd cite this one as the main one.

Blocks and topic-bans are meant to deter editors from bad behaviour, not to punish them. As such I back a topic-ban of at least a month from editing articles in regards to GAA and Londonderry topics seeing as this is where his attitude is at it's worse. Whilst they are incredibly stubborn and unwilling to budge from their opinion, disregarding compromises, I'd suggest that if blocked from editing, they should still be allowed to partake in discussion. Mabuska ^(talk) 12:29, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

If the "main" evidence against me is from September 2012 and October 2012, in relation to matters long since settled, we must hope and pray that Mabuska has never, ever made any mistake that might be resurrected by someone to argue for a topic ban. Note that in the instances selected, the editor who disagreed with me did not, then or thereafter, propose a topic ban. Brocach (talk) 12:46, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Hi guys Finnegas here, It appears that The Banner has a problem with my edits " And now, as a kind of sidekick, User:Finnegas (edit|talk|history|links|watch|logs) has started changing correct links to redirects/changing correct categories into wrong categories (like [80], [81], [82], [83], [84], [85], [86], [87], [88], [89]and [90]. That I named it work as a sidekick is due to the fact that Finnegas has the explicit support of Brocach... The Banner talk 03:17, 22 January 2013 (UTC)" Well the Banner was welcome to discuss the whole Sportspeople from Tippp Vs Tipp N or Tipp South at Talk:Patrick Maher (hurler) if he so desired. I maintain that the use of administrative counties for Sporspeole from county ? should never replace the 32 counties In addition I would like to declare contary to The Banner I am not User brocach or anyone elses sidekick. It just so happens that I agree with him on this issue.Finnegas (talk) 21:11, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Are you sure about that? Your reply here comes remarkably quick after Broacach advise to have your say here on your [User_talk:Finnegas#Similar_Requested_Move|talkpage]. About 9 minutes later... The Banner talk 21:20, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Looks more like 23 hours to me! Scolaire (talk) 00:10, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

I question your powers of observation Banner!. There was a full day between Broacach's advice and me acting upon it. [68]Anyway what do you expect me to do? Remain silent will you and Laurel Lodged demonise me. Not a notion.Finnegas (talk) 23:01, 25 January 2013 (UTC) BTW love the fact you did not reply to the part about you ignoring the part about you failing to engage in discussion on a talk page.

No what do you do? Banner take a cheap shot at me. You could be described as Laurel Lodged lapdog Finnegas (talk) 23:09, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

In fact, it was just a few minutes after you had acknowledged Brocach's call to arms. You are right that the original WP:Canvassing was much earlier. The Banner talk 03:10, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Just to make it clear I am will not consent to a topic ban. I did nothing wrong.

I think the above has shown that Finnegas is (a) a creature of Brocach, (b) has nothing to contribute to our understanding other than "because I say so", (c) engages in insulting behaviour. Given that he has continued the destructive path of Brocach on GAA related articles and is dangerously close to a 3RR situation with Banner, all of this leads me to conclude that GAA peace will be impossible until he too joins Brocach & I in our topic ban. Laurel Lodged (talk) 11:58, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Reply to (c)If I am guilty of "insulting behaviour" then so are you Laurel Lodged. You continue to describe me as Brocach's sidekick which I find quite insulting. I repeat I am nobodys sidekick.I am not engaging in an editwar with The Banner.

Reply to (b)I attempted to engage in a debate on Talk: Patrick Maher (hurler). (a)Does not merit a responseFinnegas (talk) 12:13, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

I've just looked at the mess created by Laurel Lodged at the GAA in Cork article where the nonsense on differences between administrative and traditional counties was fudged into the opening paragraph. This type of nonsense has to stop immediately. I certainly Support the topic ban for Laurel Lodged until this type of editing comes to an immediate halt and the damage reversed. I dread the thoughts of what has been done in other articles. --HighKing (talk) 15:52, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Ah, interesting that you are showing up here, mr. HighKing. Always good to respond on the canvassing] of Brocach. The Banner talk 03:10, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Actually, the diff posted by HighKing proves the opposite of what he was saying. It proves that the bits which he deleted showed that there is a difference between the two entities. The only reason to delete those bits is to create a fudge. It is HK's tendentious editing that was the problem there. Perhaps he too should be topic banned. Laurel Lodged (talk) 19:41, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

One topic ban here would be enough. It isn't HighKing, it isn't Finnegas and it isn't me. And it is acceptable to notify other editors of ongoing discussions, particularly those who have taken part in related discussions. Brocach (talk) 16:55, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

By now, the only thing we have is a massive smoke screen of words, so lets break up this discussion for convenience The Banner talk 17:39, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Proposal for a topic ban for Brocach

The original proposal of this discussion filed by me. The Banner talk 17:39, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose as set out above. Brocach (talk) 21:24, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
• Question: What topic? Gaelic Athletic Association, Counties of Ireland or both (both being the most obvious)? Scolaire (talk) 08:23, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
  • My proposal was a topic ban for all Gaelic Athletic Association related articles. The Banner talk 22:27, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Proposal for a topic ban for Laurel Lodged

The counter proposal filed by Brocach The Banner talk 17:39, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support as set out above. Brocach (talk) 21:26, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
• Question: What topic? Gaelic Athletic Association, Counties of Ireland or both (both being the most obvious)? Scolaire (talk) 08:23, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support for both Gaelic Athletic Association and Counties of Ireland: per Brocach below, LL is continuing to perform disruptive edits and moves without prior discussion, even as good faith attempts are ongoing to resolve this dispute. Scolaire (talk) 21:00, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Proposal 3

First off, this is a content dispute. Looking back at the edits, I also believe everyone tried to act in good faith. The biggest problem as far as I can see is that Laurel Lodged didn't give enough weight or merit to the many objections raised with the renaming, and therefore didn't really attempt to take on board the concerns or accept that perhaps being wrong. Sure, we could go down the Topic Ban route, but I don't believe it is necessary at this point. I believe the most sensible approach is that everyone involved agrees not to continue with any more renaming until this matter has been resolved at WikiProject Ireland. If everyone agrees, we can close this off and get the discussion started over there. --HighKing (talk) 13:58, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree with the sentiment, but I'm afraid I don't agree with simply moving this discussion to WT:IE. There are many people on the Wikiproject who don't want to see their talk page hijacked by a couple of bickering editors posting reams of angry exchanges over a period of thirty months or more. Plus, you might notice here, merely discussing things on WT:IE doesn't stop participants from moving pages or creating cats at the same time. There needs to be a formal dispute resolution procedure at an appropriate page (not a Wikiproject talk page). But I absolutely agree it is essential that everyone involved agrees not to continue with any more renaming until this matter has been resolved. Scolaire (talk) 14:34, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

I hear you - my reasoning for suggesting WT:IE was that this ultimately may make it's way into the IMOS so we'll need more than dispute resolution. --HighKing (talk) 16:44, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Step 1: resolve; Step 2: work out the details; Step 3: worry about IMOS. Scolaire (talk) 20:16, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm afraid that Laurel Lodged is unlikely to stop; yet more moves have just been made, this time to Armagh Intermediate Football Championship, along with various edits to lede texts to insert "GAA" into the names of competitions in Derry and Dublin. His supporter, The Banner, has done so repeatedly at London. I am no longer able to assume good faith on their part; these look to me like obsessives who are determined to move GAA articles and categories away from their actual names. If I try to revert these changes I am accused of edit-warring and nominated for bans; this behaviour is damaging Wikipedia and it is exhausting to try to challenge it constantly with limited help from others. Brocach (talk) 20:49, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. Given what Brocach has said, this is disruption pure and simple, and won't be resolved by talk. Scolaire (talk) 21:04, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose You need willingness to compromise, something I absolutely don't see with Brocach. That makes any dispute resolution attempt straight away useless. The Banner talk 22:32, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

@ The Banner, consider just for a moment that your associate may be in the wrong. I think that his behaviour in the last few hours says it all. Rather than continue advocating in this discussion for a topic ban on Laurel Lodged, which has never had the same prominence as the campaign against me because my efforts to amend the heading or insert subheads have repeatedly been deleted, I am going to make the case for that in a wholly separate discussion. The matter of stopping what Laurel Lodged is doing is too urgent to await the outcome of a discussion of baseless complaints against me. Brocach (talk) 22:38, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Oh? You already forgot the discussion Talk:London GAA Intermediate Football Championship earlier this evening where you refused to allow the word GAA in the title mentioned in the first sentence of the lead, conform the name of the title of the article? The Banner talk 23:06, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

No, haven't forgotten that; I answered fully on that article's talk page. Brocach (talk) 01:31, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• FYI You may wish to consider the proposal for a topic ban on Laurel Lodged here. Brocach (talk) 22:55, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
  • I'm not big into forum-shopping. Doesn't tend to make a great impression with admins either. But let's see how it goes. Scolaire (talk) 23:15, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
    • Absolutely not forum shopping, I just wanted to separate out this increasingly urgent proposal to ban further Laurel Lodged moves; I put it on AN because I was advised that that is where ban proposals normally go, but as it was moved to this page (and hidden) I have now placed it as a separate item at the bottom of this page. I am keen as many others are to bring this discussion to one place, it is Laurel Lodged who continues to open multiple fronts. Brocach (talk) 01:31, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
      • I was just saying. And looking at it where it is now, I have the impression that the admin's weren't impressed. But we'll see. Scolaire (talk) 08:15, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
        • I have moved the section referred to up here, immediately below. Please don't split discussions like this. Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 10:13, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Proposal for a topic ban for Laurel Lodged

Topic proposing ban moved from WP:AN.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:01, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

I request an immediate and permanent topic ban on Laurel Lodged in respect of any edits relating to the Gaelic Athletic Association (GAA - the largest sporting organisation in Ireland), and agreement to revert all the changes that have been made by him since late 2012 without discussion or consensus. I additionally request a six-month topic ban on the same editor in respect of edits relating to Irish counties, where he displays a similar behaviour of making multiple and radical edits without seeking consensus, and then ignoring or deriding any opposition.

Laurel Lodged has a very extensive history of making controversial moves of GAA articles and categories away from their long-established and accurate names to new locations when there is no need to do so. He then edits the lede to echo the unilaterally changed name. He usually makes these changes without any prior discussion, reverts any moves back to the actual names of the competitions, refuses to engage on the talk page, and displays condescension, hostility and sarcasm towards any editor who challenges his behaviour.

Laurel Lodged has been pulled up on multiple occasions for making these changes, and has at times gone through the motions of requesting discussion, while making it difficult for other editors to keep up by maintaining conversations at multiple locations, e.g. here, here, here, here and, meanwhile, continuing to make changes elsewhere without even the pretence of consultation.

The following lists are certainly not exhaustive – I will add others below - and other instances may have arisen by the time you finish reading this:

• (1) Instances where Laurel Lodged moved GAA articles or categories without any prior discussion or consensus, knowing that such moves had attracted controversy: [69] [70] [71] [72] [73] [74] [75] [76] [77] [78] [79] [80] [81] [82] [83] [84]

• (2) Instances where Laurel Lodged reverted moves of GAA articles or categories back to their original titles, again without any prior discussion or consensus: [85] [86] [87]

• (3) Instances where Laurel Lodged changed ledes, without discussion or consensus, to reflect the moves that he made without consensus: [88] [89] [90] [91] [92] [93] [94] [95] [96] [97] [98] [99] [100]

• (4) Instances where Laurel Lodged reverted changes back to the original text of ledes: [101]

Instances where Laurel Lodged treated those who criticised his edits with disrespect, hostility or sarcasm: [102]

Believe me, this is the tip of the iceberg. It is exhausting keeping up with this behaviour. I will post below under the same category numbers other instances of similar behaviour by Laurel Lodged - but because there are so many I would also invite other concerned editors to do so. Brocach (talk) 22:51, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Just a revenge topic ban proposal and forumhopping from AN/I where his attempts to get Laurel Lodged a topic ban get not much support. The Banner talk 23:20, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Brocach is no stranger to cancassing. But he is now so desperate for support that he has actually tried to canvass me!!! Hilarious! Laurel Lodged (talk) 23:35, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Nice that you appreciate irony. If only you appreciated the opinions of other editors. Brocach (talk) 01:31, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I know you have a good sense of humour. Like suddenly inventing OK, 9 days since proposal, looks to me like 4-1 for reverting those undiscussed moves. while the proposal was still under discussion (there was even a vote after your misplaced interference). It seems a bit strange to complain about Laurel Lodged timing when you just plain ignore discussions! (The 4-1 was also incorrect). The Banner talk 03:13, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• Isn't this the same thing as this? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:33, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• Yeah, if you look at the history here, you'll see I moved it to the earlier section at ANI from WP:AN and then collapsed it. Then, Brocach, in his infinite wisdom, moved it down here. I'm tempted to just delete it.--Bbb23 (talk) 03:01, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• I have moved this section up to rejoin the main discussion. Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 10:13, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Act of good faith proposal

I'd say both have been as bad as each other, though with varying degrees of disruptiveness. Maybe a topic-ban for all involved editors here might be a better idea to allow everyone time away from each other and to deter them from the above mess of comments. Though that would mean possibly a resumption of hostilities once it expired. Maybe instead we should all do a big act of good faith and put all of the above to the dustbin and start the discussions afresh with no hostility - just logic and reasoning.

If hostilities start again then we'd be better placed to see who started it and what sanctioning should be done. Mabuska ^(talk) 20:57, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Request from uninvolved admin

I have quickly read the above sections in their entirety, although I have not followed up every blue link and diff that has been posted. I am not willing or able to do the detective work necessary to form an opinion on this, so poorly have the arguments been made. Nor is it clear what admin action is being requested, or would be appropriate here. The protagonists must be aware from the few uninvolved responses that the discussion so far is not convincing from any side. May I make a request?

Would each person involved in this in any way make a statement of no more than 250 words setting out what is wrong and asking for a specific admin decision/action, backed up by diffs. If no kind of clear and urgent argument appears from any side, I suggest closing this discussion and treating it as a particularly ill-mannered and pointless content dispute, to be managed on article talk pages.. Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 10:30, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

I have no time at the moment to present the diffs requested, but basicly it is a conflict around the use of the name "GAA", the abbreviation of the Gaelic Athletic Association. As far as I have noticed, the trouble began with the introduction of a "County Derry" into the articles about GAA-clubs in Northern-Ireland. "County Derry" is a bit of a hot apple, with its own article about the name conflict: Derry/Londonderry name dispute. To avoid that problem, it was agreed to rename "County Derry" to "County Derry GAA", to make clear that this was not a geographical county but a provincial organisation belonging to the island-wide GAA. Shortly after that, it was proposed to change the names of the other GAA-counties along the same line. From there, the discussion went bananas and ended up in a heap of move wars, edit war and people with personal grudges. As far as I can see, people have been digging in and the viewpoints are more entrenched than a World War I-battlefield. Canvassing, side-kicks, WP:IDIDNOTHEARTHAT, ignoring of ongoing discussions is all going on. The Banner talk 12:55, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you The Banner. What (if any) action (eg block, page protection) or decision (eg ban) are you requesting? Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 13:00, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

In fact in desperation: a commission consisting of highly respected uninvolved editors (arbiters?) to resolve this mess once and for all, including penalties for breaches. This commission should do its own research, without external interference. To give the commission the time and peace to resolve the case: a topic ban for GAA-related articles for everybody involved in moves of GAA-relates articles in the past six months (and that will include me too). The duration of this topic ban should be just as long as the time the commission needs to reach a decision. The Banner talk 20:47, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• Comment from HighKing I haven't been involved in these GAA discussions although I do participate in many Ireland related topics such as this. From what I can see, Laurel Lodged is engaged in tendentious behaviour and either refuses, or is unable to accept, that many editors disagree with the many moves of articles and categories that have occurred or have been proposed. I believe many of the points made, on both sides, are pretty good and valid. I made a proposal above that all moves or requests cease until this is resolved, but this did not attract an agreement. So I'm now requesting a Topic Ban for Laurel Lodged from all "County"-related articles, broadly construed. --HighKing (talk) 20:31, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• In a nutshell, Laurel Lodged has a history going back nearly three years of making page moves, category moves, creations, deletions and controversial edits to article leads at a prodigious rate. He has a bee in his bonnet about the counties of Ireland, believing that all articles should deal with current administrative divisions rather than the "counties" that are referred to in normal parlance, despite being virtually alone in that belief. Lately he has turned his attention to the Gaelic Athletic Association (GAA), who operate in "counties" that are effectively, but not altogether, coterminous with traditional counties. He is currently involved in discussions on this page, CfD here, CfD here, Wikiproject Ireland here and here, and possibly others, but he still goes on making his moves and edits regardless of consensus. Over the last few weeks he has acquired some supporters, such as The Banner and Mabuska. This ought to strengthen his hand in negotiations, but he still seems to believe that actions speak louder than words. To get an impression of the scale of his activity, look at his contributions 500 at a time and see how many edits you can count before your mouse hand goes numb. His current talk page has numerous incidences of complaints about tendentious editing, notices of deletion of cats and templates he has created, one recent block, and a number of heartfelt pleas to stop his activity while the current multiple discussions are ongoing. Rannpháirtí anaithnid, an admin and a well-respected Irish Wikipedian of many years standing, suggested a topic-ban on LL at Wikiproject Ireland back in October. BrownHairedGirl, another much-respected admin and Irish Wikipedian recently commented that LL's "attempt to raise the distinction between a GAA county and an adminstrative county is a red herring" and that his opening of yet another CfD was "an abuse of process". In the last few weeks, Brocach has gone head-to-head with LL, with perhaps more zeal than wisdom, which has allowed The Banner to turn this long-standing problem into a campaign against Brocach instead. Like HighKing above, I believe that only a ban on LL from all counties of Ireland and GAA topics can resolve the problem in the short term. Scolaire (talk) 20:45, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Now, now, we shouldn't make misleading comments: Laurel Lodged has not acquired me as a supporter. Both Laurel Lodged and Brocach are equally guilty and deserving of topic-bans for their behaviour. Some editors here might like to focus on one more than the other and suggest only one deserves a topic-ban but in reality, both deserve to be if any is given out. There is a lot of political postering going on here from editors who are hoping to gain an upper-hand by having a troublesome objector removed from the scene. As I recently suggested above, maybe all editors involved should be topic-banned or maybe they should all start again afresh with a clean-slate in a new discussion on the issue with all the previous baggage in the dustbin, focusing on proper reasons for this and that. Any trouble from there on can be easily traced and sanctions given if merited. Would be the best solution to avoid the grand-standing political postering from some editors here. Mabuska ^(talk) 21:20, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

User:Jokestress at Talk:Hebephilia

Moved to Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/HebephiliaIncident

Moved to subpage per request NE Ent 21:24, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

User:Pratyeka abusing admin power

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Pratyeka (talk · contribs)

User:Pratyeka became an admin back in 2003, back when RFA was a lot simpler. On more than one occasion, Pratyeka has restored pages that had been deleted via AFD without without any discussion or fixing the issues with the page, instead acting within his own opinion. Observe Hack Make and Nemerle were both deleted via AFD after the discusions ended with a delete consenus, see (WP:Articles for deletion/Observe Hack Make and WP:Articles for deletion/Nemerle. Despite this, Pratyeka restored the pages without a DRV or addressing the problems. He also restored Coral Consortium which was deleted for being a copy right violation with the comment "please identify the specific section(s) infringing copyright, as IMHO this article is actually useful and unique". The fact that he used the phrase IMHO, clearly shows that he was acting based on his own opinion and ignoring policy. Pratyeka also has restored many articles that were deleted via PROD without fixing the problem such as OMAPI. While technically, that is not an abuse of power, it is not a good use of it either. JDDJS (talk) 21:46, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

pratyeka and I don't always see eye-to-eye, but have you tried to discuss this with the editor at all? Aside from the ANI notice you've never edited his talk page, and the instructions at the top of this page say "Before posting a grievance about a user here, please discuss the issue with them on their user talk page" so was there a discussion somewhere else that I'm just not seeing? I'm not saying it was proper to restore them (though one of them happened over two years ago), JamesBWatson already commented about this on prat's talk page, and unless the activity continues, is there something else you think should be done that JamesBWatson hasn't already done? - SudoGhost 21:51, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

SudoGhost - there wasn't any discussion between JDDJS and Pratyeka, but other editors have raised the issue on Prat's talk here. m.o.p 22:01, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I saw that (after responding), but it seems like the issue was already taken care of before it was brought to AN/I. I guess what I'm getting at is that other than what admins have already done, which is to discuss it on prat's talk page, what is it an AN/I discussion is supposed to accomplish? I think at this point the only thing that would really happen is for others to go "hey that was wrong, don't do it again", and that's already happened. Unless it continues after that I don't really see a huge need for anything else. - SudoGhost 22:08, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

What's required is for Pratyeka to say "hey that was wrong, I won't do it again".—Kww(talk) 22:10, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Oh, I'm not disagreeing with that at all but AN/I can't do that for him. - SudoGhost 22:14, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

To correct JDDJS's opening statement here; there was a DRV in the case of Nemerle, and the deletion was overturned, so Pratyeka isn't in the wrong there (though the language used to undelete - "Clearly notable within the global computing community. Deletion misguided. Apologies" - doesn't sit well with me, as it's citing an opinion when it should just be following process).

However, bringing back Observe Hack Make is what I'm concerned about, due to the fact that Pratyeka did not re-create the page with solid sourcing or attempt to improve it; he just restored it (using admin rights), again citing "Very large/well known, serial, hacking event. Awaited for over 3/4 years. Not crystal ball/advertising." as his reason. I, for one, don't believe administrators should be using their tools to do things they could do as editors; nor should they use their tools to step around community consensus. m.o.p 22:01, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I've commented on Pratyeka's talk page as well. I'm concerned that an admin appears to be using their extra buttons to undo community consensus that they disagree with (I'm looking specifically at Observe Hack Make in this case). It would certainly be helpful if Pratyeka would agree to refrain from using the undelete option when he personally disagrees with the result of an AfD. --Jezebel'sPonyo^{bons mots} 22:08, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Nemerle deletion was overturned at DRV NE Ent 21:57, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

The actions regarding Observe Hack Make were clearly inappropriate. The more frightening thing to me is that the discussion at Prateyka's talk page makes it clear that he doesn't understand that he isn't permitted to unilaterally overrule an AFD and has to go through DRV like everybody else.—Kww(talk) 22:07, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

...indeed. To be very blunt about it the reply made by Pratyeka to the original query on his talk page about the Hack/Make undeletion raises serious questions in my mind as to whether he has the required understanding of policy to be an admin. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:25, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Had this been a personal conflict between the two of us, I would have discussed this with Partyeka first. However this is not a personal issue; this a case of an admin using his power against consensus. About Nemerle, originally I thought that he restored before the DRV was started, but it turns out he restored it in the middle of the DRV, which is still an abuse of his power because he did not wait for the discussion to end, and it does not appear that the DRV even influenced his restoration at all. JDDJS (talk) 22:15, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

It's still preferable to discuss the with editor on their talk page first -- maybe they'll agree with you and agree to change their ways. Never know until you try. NE Ent 22:27, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

• If DRV was like it is now, recreation of the article could have still been in process to allow people to !vote at the DRV. This was not the case, but recreating something during a DRV (if you follow the proper steps) is not necessarily an abuse of the mop. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:32, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

But he did not follow the proper steps. He clearly just disagreed with the consensus so he ignored it. JDDJS (talk) 22:39, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

• Notice how I was replying to "an abuse of his power because he did not wait for the discussion to end," by stating that waiting for the discussion to the end is not, technically, required. I also noted that this particular case was not in line with policy... — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:58, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

James B Watson just started discussion at 2100 UTC and an ANI thread is opened at 2146 UTC? Too quick, give the guy a chance to answer before we start heating up the tar. NE Ent 22:21, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Actually, User:Wtshymanski bought this up on his page over a week ago. He responded that the deletion was in error, which is a clear indicator that he doesn't know that there is a limit to his power. JDDJS (talk) 22:26, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)No, the discussion on his talk page started at 14:27 UTC, 15 January 2013 [103]. And the response to that [104] clearly indicates that there is a serious problem here. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:28, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Given that prat hasn't edited in 6 days I think maybe JamesBWatson's comment should have been enough for the moment; one person saying "I disagree" is one thing, when another person steps in and says the same thing it becomes a different situation. If prat continued to assert it was fine or continued the behavior it would be one thing, but what is AN/I going to do that JamesBWatson hasn't already done? - SudoGhost 22:34, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

He should have his admin privileges revoked. He obviously does not have enough understanding of policy at the moment. He should be allowed to reapply for adminship if he demonstrates that he know has the proper knowledge of policy to be an admin. JDDJS (talk) 22:36, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I've seen what it takes to desysop someone, and if you opened the AN/I discussion just to try to get him desysopped I'd say the chances of that happening as of this moment are pretty much zero. If he continues to restore pages like that that would be another story, but at this point desysopping is unlikely. Given that (to my knowledge) this isn't some recurring issue that he's been warned about before, a warning that this isn't acceptable behavior is the most I see happening. That warning should certainly happen, and indeed already happened before you opened the AN/I discussion. The only thing I see that needs to happen is that prat needs to acknowledge that this isn't acceptable, and not to do it again. - SudoGhost 22:46, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes. It would take more than this to desysop. I hope he acknowledges the problem and stops. Should he choose not to externally acknowledge the problem but stop anyway, nothing much is going to happen. The only path from here to desysop is to refuse to acknowledge and to continue doing things like this.—Kww(talk) 22:55, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I disagree. We should wait (a little while) for a response. If he demonstrates he understands, and won't be doing it again, no problem. If not, his judgment can't be trusted wrt recreating any articles and we can ban him from recreating any deleted articles. Presumably, he'll abide by that - if he doesn't, desysopping should take five minutes at ArbCom. He needs to actually address the community's concern. You (plural) are answerable to the community, whether you personally like it or not. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 22:59, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

I agree with you as to what should happen: a clear statement that he doesn't understand that what he has done is wrong should be enough to take action on. I'll stand by my prediction, though: unless he continues after this warning, not much will actually happen.—Kww(talk) 23:05, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Well, a clear statement that he doesn't understand should certainly prompt action, but so should ignoring the community's concern. You are answerable. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 23:11, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Wouldn't not responding to this ANI be the same thing as a "clear statement that he doesn't understand that what he has done is wrong"? JDDJS (talk) 23:17, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

He already has clearly indicated that he doesn't view what he did as wrong.—Kww(talk) 23:39, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

That was before he had the benefit of reading the views expressed in this thread. Give him time to consider his position. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 01:39, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I think that it is a serious problem when admins clearly do not understand policy. As I said in my opening statement, this is not the only case of him overusing his admin tools. The only reason why he became an admin in the first place is that RFA was a lot simpler when he became an admin, all you had to do was be around for awhile and have some useful edits. He certainly would not pass a current RFA due to his lack of policy understanding. JDDJS (talk) 23:02, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Hi everyone. I am an inclusionist. Deletion is a last resort. It's shocking to see so much discussion about something so simple as restoring an article that clearly shouldn't have been deleted. Having said that, it's true that I joined Wikipedia a long time ago. I have not followed all of the policies' development, as I don't have time. But before assuming I am all out to get your policies and overturn your important bygone misinformed decisionmaking with self-labelled 'consensus' (one could almost say: "by self-appointed '(temporary) ministry of truth' committees", but I should probably avoid that), I'm just going to be honest and say that I make all edits in good faith, including this one. It occurs to me that if half of the effort bickering about this undeletion and policy could have been used to enhance the very valid article, then we would all be wealthier. I am going to go further and state something slightly obvious, which is that the notion of 'consensus' for deleting an article in Wikipedia is fundamentally flawed in multiple ways. Given that it's imperfect, given that some of us have been around and proven we are net contributors in good faith, what's the point of having admin powers and expert domain knowledge (I have been involved in the 'hacker' community since ~1995) if you can't press the undelete button for a huge and well known event, attended by loads of famous people (as mentioned during the restore!), that given it's quadrennial frequency it's fair to say is about to occur? I regret to say that for some time this will be my only opportunity comment on this discussion, as I am exceptionally busy and largely offline with travelling in the wilds of Zomia (behind the Great Firewall of China) before Chinese New Year. If you would like me to comment further, please post to my talk page and allow a few weeks for a response. Thanks for your collective understanding and apologies if anyone got their feathers ruffled. Also, thanks for your support SudoGhost, even though we don't always see eye to eye (re: recent issues on Bitcoin!), it's certainly a meaningful gesture. With the hopes that nobody is offended or upset, we can all get back to adding and editing useful and historic content: peace and love to all in the new year... prat (talk) 01:06, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

PS. Considering the edit a bit more, I think as well as giving a resonable case I was also working to the 'be bold' policy. Now please relax and sorry if anyone involved in the mistaken deletion was upset by the undelete. Sometimes we are all wrong. In this case, the deletion was wrong, though the net effect (discouraging the article to grow too far until close to the event) is probably a reasonable outcome for all. PLUR. prat (talk) 01:14, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Using your admin tools to restore an article deleted via consensus at WP:AfD based on your own personal belief that it should not be deleted is so not on. Venues for contesting deletion are as available to you as they are to any other editor. How many times do we try to explain to non-administrators that having the tools and being an admin is "no big deal", only to have you completely use them out of process to further your own personal agenda? It's unacceptable, and if it happens again I will support any request that your access to the admin buttons be removed. --Jezebel'sPonyo^{bons mots} 01:27, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Pratyeka should have gone through DRV, as overturning consensus by fiat is not what adminship is about. Reyk _YO! 01:46, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Undeletion

In a move that belies my exclusionist underpinnings, I've undeleted Extreme transaction processing. The article would appear to be complete crap in my eyes, but I can't see a G6 deletion as being even remotely justifiable.—Kww(talk) 06:17, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Goodness. That should not have been deleted. This should go to ArbCom (if someone gets the guts to actually file...) --Rschen7754 07:59, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oh dear, that was a shockingly bad deletion. And yes, if nobody has started an ArbCom request when I'm done with my paid work for the day, I'll be happy to do it - assuming the consensus is still going in the same direction it is now. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:09, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm confused. Was this a bad deletion or a page move from Extreme transaction processing to Extreme Transaction Processing? --Anthonyhcole (talk) 14:33, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Given the timeframes, it was a bad deletion followed months later by the creation of a similar article with nearly the same name.—Kww(talk) 15:13, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Proposal that Pratyeka be banned from undeleting deleted articles

• Support as proposer. Clearly he can't be trusted to perform that task in accordance with community consensus and policy. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 01:53, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Strong Support He refuses to admit that he did anything wrong by ignoring consensus, and does not show any indication that he won't do it again. I feel that he should be completely desyposed, but I will settle for an undeletion ban. JDDJS (talk) 02:19, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose Overkill. Concerns have been raised ... if he continues to undelete stuff in the future then we can talk about bans. It's not like he's going rogue blocking editors or FPPing articles or getting in protracted pissing contests with editors... on the scale of wiki-crap, undeleting a sketchy article isn't very high. If he hasn't had major issues in eight years it's unlikely he'll be doing significant damage in 2012. NE Ent 02:25, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

It's not at all overkill. Personally I feel that it is not enough and that he should lose all admin rights. He has used his admin powers to completely bypass consensus and has refused to admit any wrong doing, giving every indication that he will do it again. JDDJS (talk) 02:33, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support and send to ArbCom. Prat's comment that he is an inclusionist does not help his position. I'm a deletionist, and were I an admin who deleted articles arbitrarily, I would drawn, hung, and quartered, with my body parts being sent for display to the four corners of the WP empire. He is given the bit as a trust, not to make his own decisions to override the community. The comment that the deletion was made "in error" shows that he has no idea of limitation by community consensus. GregJackP Boomer! 02:35, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support The arrogance of the statement he left above is staggering. Anyone who declares their own judgement overrides consensus shouldn't be an admin. At the very least he should not be allowed to delete articles, especially because he admits he isn't up to speed on policy. Performing controversial actions right before taking an extended break is extremely poor form as well. AniMate 02:37, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose per the tree. Looks like the problem is resolved.   little green rosetta(talk)
  central scrutinizer  02:42, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Can you please elaborate on that? The problem is that he refuses to abide by community consensus. That problem has not been resolved. JDDJS (talk) 02:50, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• I would like to know also. He just said "misinformed decisionmaking with self-labelled 'consensus'" and "what's the point of having admin powers and expert domain knowledge ... if you can't press the undelete button...." Where does this show any intention on his part of abiding by community consensus? The problem is definitely not resolved. As a matter of fact, the more I think of this, the more I believe that he should be de-sysoped. GregJackP Boomer! 03:23, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

He said it was a mistake, and I'm willing to AGF that it was a mistake.  little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer  03:36, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

No, he never said that it was mistake. In fact, he has said the complete opposite, and that consensus was a mistake. JDDJS (talk) 03:44, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)No, he said the deletion by the community was a mistake, and that his action in undeleting the article, without DRV or consensus was proper. If you can show me where he said that he made a mistake, I would re-consider my position. GregJackP Boomer! 03:47, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

I completely misread the statement above where I thought he was claiming he made a mistake. I will strike my !vote.  little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer  16:13, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• You know, it's really not clear to me ANI can "topic ban" an admin from undeleting -- that's kind of a mini-desysop and that's reserved to ArbCom and the stewards and maybe Jimbo if decides to be the founder again. NE Ent 03:17, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

ANI clearly has that authority. We can topic ban anyone, or for that matter, site ban them.GregJackP Boomer! 03:24, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

If you can find a resolution from the Foundation that disallows the community from constraining the behaviour of an editor, please bring it forward. I'm not aware of one, so suggest we proceed under the assumption that community consensus applies when it comes to constraining the behaviour of individual users. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 03:33, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Strongest possible support - It's clear from the above that Prat has no clue when it comes to Wikipedia's deletion policies, instead repeating his accusations (to the point where they could be considered personal attacks) of "mistaken deletion" above and mainitaining that he has done nothing wrong, and claiming that based on his "expert domain knowledge" he knows better than we do about how things should be run. This is not the kind of person Wikipedia needs as an admin. At all. Admins abide by community consensus and policy, they are not autocrats pulling strings "because I think this is how it should be done". Frankly if I didn't know better I'd be half tempted to call it some form of elaborate trolling, as I find it nearly impossible to believe that anybody who has been around the Wikipedia community for the length of time he has could possibly hold such views as he espouses above. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:22, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Strong support Report to ArbCom given the arrogance shown in the response above, and the insistence that he was right to overrule consensus unilaterally. In my view, admins who abuse the tools to enforce their own opinions over the consensus of the Community, and then insist it was fine for them to do so, should be instantly desysoped. Anyone who said in an RfA today "I intend to use the tools to overrule the community when I disagree with consensus", would be snowed out. Admins who not only actually do it, but then go on to defend their actions and insist they have the right to do it, should be shown the door. Unfortunately, the community doesn't have the balls to put in place a proper means to get rid of rogue admins, so I'll have to settle for this topic ban instead, at least for now. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 03:35, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

  Actually, on further reflection, I think a ban on undeleting is not sufficient, because this is not specifically an undeletion problem - it's the classic "arrogant old school admin" problem. Both here and on his Talk page, Pratyeka continues to insist on his right to use his admin tools to override community consensus when he thinks it's wrong, even after reading this report here and reading the comments on his talk page. Unless we get a commitment to change that, we need his admin tools removed - maybe an admonishment from ArbCom would convince him? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 03:54, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Send to ARBCOM -- Can the community ban an admin from using the bit at all? If so, it's the same as removing the bit. Are we saying the community could do this, or is this "partial ban" fundamentally different? I'm actually okay with letting the community remove the bit by subject ban, I just don't think it is in alignment with our standard procedures and I think everyone should realize exactly what the ramifications of this might be in the long term. I'd suggest sending this to ARBCOM instead. In any case, isn't AN a better location for this discussion? Hobit (talk) 03:43, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Well, we're not taking the bit off him, I believe that's something only ArbCom and Jimbo can do. We're telling him not to use a part of it. We don't need ArbCom's permission for that. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 03:51, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

That's what's unclear to me. Are you saying we can't desysop as a community, but we can ban someone from using the bit and block them if they do? That sounds very strange. As if we are subverting the intent of letting Arbcom be the only place for desysoping. I'd personally support an RfC allowing the community to do this (though I'd say it should be at AN, not ANI), but feel such an RfC should happen first. Hobit (talk) 14:26, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Strongest possible support for ArbCom, partial ban, desysop, you name it. I don't mind admins ignoring all rules, but no one with this attitude toward collaboration should have the bit. Someguy1221 (talk) 03:48, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

The editor has made some declarations on his user page specifically regarding article deletion, which goes precisely to the matter at hand. Given those declarations, and his above comment, I think it is reasonable for us to constrain him from undeleting. But he seems an intelligent and decent chap, and I see no reason whatever to assume he won't be responsible and valuable in his use of admin rights outside this very narrow area, so think it would be overreacting to desysop. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 03:51, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

But it's not just an undeletion problem - he is openly insisting that (as an admin and expert) he has the right to overrule consensus. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 04:07, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

You may be right. I don't know. I do know we should give him time to absorb what's happening here, and reflect. This is a paradigm shift for him and, for me at least, paradigm shifts take at least a day or so. Go slowly. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 04:48, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Sure - there's still plenty of time for him to agree never again to use the admin tools to override consensus or against policy (eg to reinstate copyright infringements - see "Possibly even more serious" Starblind comment below). -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 05:00, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support undeletion ban (and desysop if necessary). It's one thing to have strong views that aren't necessarily supported by the community, it's another thing entirely to use sysop powers against community consensus. Any admin candidate at RFA threatening to ignore consensus would be quite rightly SNOWed out to the tune of gales of laughter. Admins exist to serve the community, not oppose it, and anyone who doesn't understand that shouldn't be an admin. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 03:57, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

If this proposal passes, and he undletes anything again, I'm sure the consequence will be a SNOW five minute desysop at ArbCom. For that matter, if he demonstrates a disregard for policy or consensus in another area, I expect the result would be the same. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 04:06, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Send to ArbCom Yes, it was bad, but to topic ban an admin from performing any action in the toolset would be a significant shift in community consensus. --Rschen7754 04:16, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
  • To expand upon my comments, I don't trust him to delete anything either. And I don't trust him to respect community consensus. That makes him unfit to remain as an admin, in my book. --Rschen7754 04:25, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Strong oppose. (Totally uninvolved editor here - just happened to see this). The adoration for process expressed in the comments above explicitly and implicitly is what is killing WP. Arbcom? Desysop? Ban from undeleting? For this? Please. LIke Prat says, if the energy spent on this was spent on improving articles, most deletions would not be required. Obscure articles of poor quality has to be one of our least important problems. So if some of them are rescued where is the harm? And in many case there is benefit. We need more editors who behave like this, not fewer. Kudos to Prat! --Born2cycle (talk) 04:31, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Let's say you're a new editor, while I've been here since 2005. You write an article. I delete it and give the reason as "I've been here a long time, so I know best." Are you ever going to come back? Didn't think so. Actions like this damage the project. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 06:04, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
    • I haven't seen a diff of Pratyeka performing any out of process deletions and, per his talk page response, it seems hardly likely an "inclusionist" would do so. How is an undeletion going to drive away new users? NE Ent 13:15, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Possibly even more serious than it first appeared: Looking in the logs I've located at least one case where Prat apparently knowingly undeleted copyvio material, saying it was "useful and unique". Okay, I think I'd support taking this to ArbCom as it's quickly gone from bad to worse. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 04:42, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
  • JDDJS actually included Coral Consortium in his initial post. It was cleaned by User:Geitost and listed at WP:Copyright problems/2011 January 21. WP:CP regular User:VernoWhitney RD1'd it. Flatscan (talk) 05:14, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support- per Andrew Lenahan. Reyk _YO! 04:44, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Concern I morally support this. I worry about the process. I don't think that Arbcom needs to be involved, and I think this is well within power of community consensus. I'm just not sure that a drive-by at ANI is sufficient. RFC/U perhaps?—Kww(talk) 04:56, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

No. That would be throwing unnecessary delays and bureaucracy in the way of community self-government. There are two proposals here: undelete ban and desysop. There is a very clear consensus for the undelete ban; that is obviously the very least that needs doing. And we don't need a big long RfCU to do it, just because he's an admin. Desysop is up to ArbCom. They may ask us to run an RfCU but, assuming Pratyeka doesn't change his stance between now and then, they're just as likely to take the case for desysop on the evidence in this thread. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 05:16, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Apparently pratakaya is on holidays with intermittent internet access, and so will probably not be doing anything objectionable in the near future anyway. So there's no rush to do anything immediately. Reyk _YO! 05:32, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support - Echoing comments by Boing! said Zebedee and others: This user's actions and explanatory response are unacceptable, and even alarming. They amount to a dismissal of community consensus and established process, and threaten the foundational integrity of the project. Given the extraordinarily high standards and cross examination that we currently subject RfA candidates to, this kind of roguery (there, I said it) must be stopped in it's tracks. This applies to all users, admins and otherwise; both vintage and new. We're all accountable to the community and to the project for respecting the same set of policies, guidelines and established consensus. No one is special. - MrX 05:10, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Comment I've been concerned about Pratyeka ever since last summer, when the discussion at Talk:Early_life_and_career_of_Barack_Obama#CIA_Reference_Justification indicated a lack of understanding or regard for BLP policy and synthesis. At the outset of that discussion I had the impression (via the "Wikipedia administrator" tag on his first signature) that he was trying to use his admin position to force an inappropriate synthesis into a BLP. Acroterion (talk) 05:25, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

  That Obama thing certainly does show a very poor grasp of BLP policy of and Synthesis, which is disturbing in an admin - though as long as he doesn't use the admin tools to act in those areas, I don't think it's a cause for action. However, the "Wikipedia administrator" tag clearly looks like an attempt to intimidate and to imply that his opinion is somehow special, and I see that as unacceptable behaviour - as a one-off, it wouldn't warrant action, but it's all adding up to an unacceptable attitude in an admin. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 05:39, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

That was how I felt at the time: it didn't involve direct use of admin tools and Pratyeka didn't habitually edit BLPs so I let it pass. I mention it here as additional evidence of a poor or obsolete understanding of basic policy. I didn't catch on at first that I was explaining policy to an administrator: I thought I was dealing with a newbie. I only noticed the tag about halfway through. Acroterion (talk) 12:15, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Weak support - Given the response, I do believe something needs to be done. I feel that prat's response was less than ideal, and if there's an indication that this behavior is going to continue that it needs to be addressed. However, I also feel that if it is ArbCom who typically desysops someone, something more than an AN/I discussion should be used to say "we can't desysop you, so we'll ban you from using the tools instead." It gives the impression of subverting the actual process, although I know that's certainly not the intention. On the other hand, I think that my thinking is at odds with WP:BURO and WP:IAR, at least on some level. If prat makes some sort of acknowledgement that an admin cannot ignore community consensus and resolves to refrain from doing so in the future, then I see no need for this sort of topic ban. Short of that, however, something should be done, and for lack of some better alternative, I would have to support this, though not with a high degree of comfort. - SudoGhost 05:29, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
  • If he's willing to abide by consensus, then all will be well. If he continues with his "LOL consensus" attitude that he's blatantly and brazenly displaying, he's a rogue admin and needs to have the bit stripped ASAP. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 06:06, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
    • I'd say that an 11th-hour apology at this point (which hasn't actually happened anyway), would just be a desperate move to keep the tools. He's already made his true feelings on the matter incredibly clear, that he's above consensus. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 06:21, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support and request desysop. --Nouniquenames 05:37, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support not for the singular incident, but for the statements made above that indicate an attitude towards established Wikipedia policy that I find incompatible with being a good admin. Let me be clear, it is fine to a) make an occasional mistake or b) hold an opinion contrary to consensus. However it is not OK to deliberately and knowingly take actions which one knows to be against consensus policy, and then act as though the rest of the community has to accept it. If he had merely expressed the opinion, or had merely had one or two bad undeletions, I wouldn't support this at all. Neither by itself means much, but the fact that the undeletions don't represent an error, but rather a deliberate attempt to circumvent established norms merely for to further one's own opinions on the issue at hand, and without regard for the opinions of the greater community at large, that is incompatible with the use of the admin tools. An admin should be willing to use their tools without regard for their own opinions, or at the very least, to refrain from using them where community norms differ from one's own opinions. The fact that that didn't happen here (and not the substance of the opinion itself) is why I must, with great regret, support the proposed sanction. --Jayron32 07:10, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Send to ArbCom Obviously there is support that he is not trusted with one part of his administrative duties, and if that is the case, ArbCom is where you direct concerns about him not using the tools anymore. We do not support RFAs on the basis that we take their word to not use a tool a certain way or that they promise to refrain from blocking/deleting/protecting. If he is trusted with the tools, then so be it, but he can't trusted with 2/3 of it. Regards, — Moe Epsilon 07:31, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• ArbCom -- The user explicitly stated he undeleted articles that had undergone AfD because he believed they shouldn't have been deleted and consensus is just a silly little thing. Sysops aren't "super users", they need to ascertain and implement the community's consensus, not override it with their own views. Salvidrim! ✉ 07:49, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose Most folks here are taking a prior restraint view of undeletion. In fact, admins can and should undelete things that are fixable, in the process of fixing them. DRV doesn't exist as a necessary stop, period. Now, the fact that this should have gone to userspace or an incubator first before remaining in mainspace unchanged is really the only structural issue I see here, and one that's quite correctable. Fact is, if he hadn't had the bit and had just restored a deleted copy from a mirror somewhere, it would have been G4'ed and he would have gotten a notice of that, and that's about it. You want to know why there are so few people willing to be admins? Look no further than how badly a single incident has been blown out of proportion. Jclemens (talk) 08:02, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
  • I find this oppose disturbing, considering that one of the AFDs closed with "Consensus argued that the subject had not received coverage which would have demonstrated notability via GNG". That's not fixable. --Rschen7754 08:18, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
    • It's absolutely fixable - how many young actors have had early press-release-and-a-headshot articles deleted for lack of notability, only to land a notable role and get a new article later on? Subjects that are not notable at deletion can become notable later - it's the whole premise of WP:USUAL, for example. But undeleting an article because "Subject became notable when he did X" is not the concern here. The undelete here was done because the admin specifically and explicitly disregarded the "self-described" consensus. He did not fix the article, did not update it to show how the subject had since become notable, did not remove the potential copyvio (or link to show that it was not copyvio), he just restored it. And I don't know how that is justifiable - as Jclemens correctly notes, a simple repost would have been G4'ed out of existance with all speed. Jclemens is correct, admins are able to undelete articles at will - but only for cause, and only in such a way as to address the concerns that got them deleted in the first place. Acting as an admin super-vote after the fact is not acceptable, and it seems that that is what we're looking at here. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 13:53, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support and Refer to Arbcom to consider stripping his admin status. Violating WP:Consensus after a clear procedural determinantion of the community's opinion is, IMHO, a very serious breach of the community's trust that comes with the responsibility of being an admin. Taken together with his restoration of copyvio material and his self-declared position, IMHO this editor should not be allowed anywhere near an admin's toolbox. Roger (talk) 08:10, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• We're far too quick to jump to straw polls on ANI these days. Prat has been informed that the community doesn't support his use of the tools to support his position on the deletion/inclusion spectrum: it is to be assumed that he won't do it again now that it's attracted broad community attention. There should be no need for a formal topic ban here. Talk of ArbCom or a desysopping is extreme at this point. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:24, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

  Can you show us where he has accepted the community's feedback or given any indication that he won't do it again? It looks to me more like he's saying "Fuck you community, I'm in charge and I'll decide what's deleted and what isn't". -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:28, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

  "It is to be assumed" because it's the only sane response. If he carries on regardless after the heat of a big ANI thread (which is far higher-profile than the previous incidents, so far as I can see) then future corrective action should be uncontroversial. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:45, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

  Well, leaving aside the slur on my sanity, I think it is far more reasonable to assume that he means what he says - that he believes that as an admin and "expert" he has the right to override consensus when he thinks it is wrong. And to me, that is not reason to assume he is going to do the opposite of that. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:51, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

  Prak's sanity, not yours. Apologies for any confusion there. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 11:11, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

  Hehe, np - my misunderstanding -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:43, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Send to ArbCom and let them decide. Admins, in my opinion, should either be free to do everything, or free to do nothing, they should not be partially topic banned from certain tasks they can't be trusted with. GiantSnowman 09:34, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support desysopping, and/or sending to arbcom. Unfortunately the community can't do it itself yet. Shadowjams (talk) 09:54, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Send to ArbCom We just had another admin who ran away when told advised the he was time-and-tme again screwing up the deletion process and their response was also "yeah, so what" (✉→BWilkins←✎) 10:25, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose This is way too soon to call for a de-sysop. He's here for 1 undeletion, not multiple, and do remember IAR is just as much policy as AFD.  KoshVorlon. We are all Kosh ...  12:31, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Send to ArbCom - not just one undeletion, but a deletion that shouldn't be made, editing through edit protection without making an edit request for another Admin to do or deny (at least that seems to be what happened at Bitcoin). It's part of a pattern. Dougweller (talk) 13:02, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

I should have realised this couldn't happen. I am still not at all convinced that this editor should be a sysop. We are supposed to handle them responsibly and this isn't happening here. I'd like him to say what he plans to do with the tools if he does keep them. Admins who rarely use their tools should probably resign them - others may disgree, but we are given the tools to do a job and if we aren't doing it then we don't need the tools, and disuse makes one rusty at using the tools. Dougweller (talk) 19:12, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

• While I would support the proposed restriction if it were either that or nothing, a user who cannot be trusted with the whole admin toolset should not be an admin. Given the shocking statement above on his contempt for the community consensus and established process, this should be send to arbcom for consideration of desyopping. KTC (talk) 13:51, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Arbcom As Dougweller has pointed out, this is more than one event. I'm not at all convinced that he truly understands the problem. I think Arbcom is the place to go for this because ANI doesn't have the authority (as far as I can tell) and as Prat's away a bit they can hold it ready till he's back to defend himself. And yes, IAR is a policy/rule the same as any others, but if the community feels that a decision taken under it was wrong, then there must be some method to undo it, and if necessary stop it happening again. GedUK  13:54, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose as premature. Good Christ, if I make one mistake am I gonna get desysopped? The problem isn't in the undeletion we're discussing (which was bad and which should be reversed, as consensus here seems to indicate). The problem is that an admin had the chutzpah to tell the ANI crowd that he was right and their self-described consensus was wrong. And it made us MAD. Holy shit, this guy thinks he's in charge? But sending this to arbcom, polishing up the pitchforks, setting the torches ablaze? Guys, what the fuck? Consensus is clear that his undeletion was a mistake - great. So if he continues to undelete things against policy, THEN you send him to arbcom and let them do the necessary. A proposed case describing this incident would properly be closed out, at most with a motion from the committee directing Pratyeka to fucking be careful next time kthx. "What prior dispute resolution was attempted" "...Did you see how he talked to us?" isn't gonna fly at arbcom. If Adminship is a big enough deal to get so angry about it, it's a big enough deal to take the time (here!) to discuss properly. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 14:00, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Pratyeka made a boo-boo has been a very very bad admin A whole boatload of folks have pointed that out. As thumperward has already pointed out, the most likely outcome is he won't do it again cause, let's face, who wants the grief? This penchant for demanding editors done a sackcloth and publicly sing a kommós isn't healthy. See also Editors have pride. NE Ent 14:38, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose I do not know if our hand must be that heavy and if we must club him into submission here; yes, he made a mistake, and yes, he stood by his decision. But I cannot bring myself to really see bad faith in what he was doing. And I think UltraExactZZ and NE Ent are spot on. Lectonar (talk) 14:46, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support desysop (either through banning him from using any admin tools, or by taking him to ArbCom for a true desysop). He hardly uses the tools, but when he does, he often does so incorrectly, and has indicated that this is deliberately and that he doesn't care about consensus (and, by extension, about our policies). Just take a look at his latest logged admin tools actions (editing through protection is not logged thus, so that aspect is not included). To find 20 items in his log, we have to go back to 2010, and many of these aren't admin actions but moves or uploads that anyone could have done. This includes dubious but not necessarily wrong decisions like restoring Edgware Walker (which should be taken to AfD as the documentary may be barely notable, the person is not notable at all, and the article is very poor) and OMAPI without any improvements[105][106], four deletions of his own incorrect creations (Wushun man, Kusanda language, Kusanda people and Afghan War Diary), restoring a deleted copyright violation at Coral Consortium without even contacting the deleting admin or discussing this at the talk page of the article, an out-of-process G6 deletion of Extreme transaction processing, and the overturned restoration of Observe Hack Make.

So in over two years time, he has made two undeletions or prodded articles of very low quality and without making any improvements to them, four deletions of his own mistakes, 2 clearly incorrect undeletions and one clearly incorrect deletion. Coupled with his reply in this section, I see no reason at all to let him remain an admin any longer, as he is clearly in his admin actions a net negative. Fram (talk) 15:17, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Comment, in view of the consensus here, I have prepared a case for ArbCom at User:GregJackP/ArbComm/Prat. Please take a look at it and let me know if I need to make any corrections. GregJackP Boomer! 15:49, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• I think the consensus here is actually just to prohibit him from undeleting articles. If you do take it to Arbcom, the deletion of Extreme transaction processing is just as troubling as his undeletions.—Kww(talk) 16:12, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• I know it's not a straight vote, but I've just done a quick count and I see 26 in favour of sanctions of some sort, with 17 of those supporting desysop/Arbcom, and 7 opposing any sanction. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:38, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• I'm not going to do anything until it is clear what the community wants. As I noted, I support both a topic ban on deletion and desysop, but there's no particular rush on my part. GregJackP Boomer! 16:59, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Well, as it stands, I think there's easily enough support for an ArbCom request - and your draft looks pretty good for starters. But I would support leaving it over the weekend as there's really no rush. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:52, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support a full ban on delete/undelete and desysop (via arbcom). -Nathan Johnson (talk) 16:26, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Comment I just want to make a point here. Several instances in where Prat either clearly abused his admin power or stretched the limits of it have been bought up. However, nobody, not even the people that are defending him, have bought up any instance in where he used his admin status to do something exceptionally good. While prat has made many useful edits as an editor, as far as I know, he has not made any exceptional edits as an admin. He also is not a very active admin. This is the very reason that RFA is so hard now. It stops people who might be useful editors but not useful admins from becoming admins. So, to summarize, what would the community actually lose if he is desysoped? JDDJS (talk) 17:34, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Another little piece of its humanity. NE Ent 17:54, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support When I first discussed this with JDDJS before he brought it to ANI, I was only aware of the one incident with Pratyeka (concerning Observe Hack Make). However, since Prat's reply on this page, I have no choice but to be extremely concerned; not only has he broken policy, he seems to defend his actions and acts like he's done nothing wrong. I could understand a slip-up and an apology, but standing adamantly by your mistakes as if you're the victim isn't advisable, and I don't think I can trust somebody like that with the sysop tools. m.o.p 22:55, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support for request to Arbcom to de-sysop, and require a new RFA if he wishes to continue as an admin. I do not think a requirement to refrain from undeletions is enough. The original incidents do not concern me so much, but the unapologetic attitude shown in the response above, with the assumption that he is entitled to override AfD, restore an article because it "clearly shouldn't have been deleted" and dismiss formal deletion discussions as "your important bygone misinformed decisionmaking with self-labelled 'consensus' " shows an attitude so far out of line with current expectations of an admin as to be unacceptable. If he is going to be out of contact, Arbcom can certainly choose to wait for a response before taking action, but the issue should go to them now. JohnCD (talk) 23:11, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support Arbcom request Looking at Arbcom's history, I see the cases of User:EncycloPetey and User:SchuminWeb as admins who retired/stopped editing after concerns over their adminship were brought up (they both ended up being desysopped by Arbcom), so there's that precedent. Canuck^{89 (converse with me)} 04:03, January 26, 2013 (UTC)
• Strong support, support sending to arbcom if that's what people feel is best. I may be a little unique here, but I'm actually less concerned about his? belief he can unilaterally override consensus (which is still a concern) and more concerned about the fact he seems to think it's okay to undelete copyvios. Yes as far as we know this was only done once, and it was quite a while ago but I also see no admission from him it was a mistake which he won't be repeating. We already spend a lot of time trying to find copyright violations and for those used to dealing with such things they know there are still a lot more we aren't finding. It's rather concerning then when one has been identified, an admin thinks it's okay to just undelete it based on their personal opinion. (I can't see the old version nor can I do an old internet search to see whether a simple search or just checking out the links inside would have confirmed it was likely a copyvio.) From what I can tell [107] they didn't even ask the deleter (who was semi active Special:Contributions/Cobaltbluetony) or list it as a possible copyright violation on the copyvio page. Luckily it was found fairly fast (within 4 weeks) and no one else wasted their own time on editing the copyright violation it after it was undeleted (other then the person who re-identified it) but I still consider this unacceptable. Nil Einne (talk) 05:16, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support - it is blatantly obvious from his actions and comments that user is not suited for privilege to undelete articles, and it is also questionable if he is suited to be admin at all.--Staberinde (talk) 11:39, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
• Support and send to ArbCom - Undeleting around AfD instead of taking something to DRV is administrative abuse, plain and simple, and I would favor immediate detooling. Carrite (talk) 19:00, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Feel free to archive this sub-thread but please get the closing statement right.

Support community tool restriction

1. User:Anthonyhcole
2. User:AniMate
3. User:Jayron32

Support community tool restriction and referral to ArbCom

1. User:Nathan Johnson
2. User:Roger
3. User:KTC
4. User:Staberinde
5. User:JDDJS
6. User:GregJackP
7. User:The Bushranger
8. User:Boing! said Zebedee
9. User:Someguy1221
10. Andrew Lenahan
11. User:Reyk
12. User:Nouniquenames
13. User:Nil Einne
14. User:Fram
15. User:Carrite

Support tool restriction but question the community's right to restrict an admin's tool use behaviour, or whether ANI is the right venue

1. User:Hobit
2. User:Rschen7754
3. User:Kww
4. User:SudoGhost
5. User:Ged UK

Support referral to ArbCom without commenting on tool restriction

1. User:Salvidrim
2. User:Shadowjams
3. User:Bwilkins
4. User:KoshVorlon
5. m.o.p
6. User:JohnCD
7. User:Canuck89

Oppose community tool restriction on principle but support sending to ArbCom

1. User:Moe Epsilon
2. User:GiantSnowman

Oppose tool restriction and desysop

1. User:NE Ent
2. User:Born2cycle
3. User:Jclemens
4. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward)
5. User:Ultraexactzz
6. User:Lectonar

Anthonyhcole (talk) 07:13, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Vote counting does not capture the totality of the discussion and inappropriately pigeonholes editors into positions why may not accurately represent their viewpoint and is inimical to the Wikipedia consensus model. NE Ent 12:56, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

It's more accurate than the previous close. --Nouniquenames 15:17, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

I know that, Ent. If anyone's unhappy with their pidgeon-hole, they're free to correct. I haven't closed, and I haven't based my non-existent close on counting. The first close involved vote counting, and mis-counted. It read in part:

The participation in the discussion has slowed, with support roughly split between the topic ban, and either opposing all action, or supporting a review by Arbcom, which in most of such comments is an implicit oppose to the ban.

If the closer of this thread intends making declarations about the community's freedom to constrain the behaviour of admins, may I point out this comment from arbitrator Salvio giuliano? Anthonyhcole (talk) 01:39, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Pitchforks down

Can we please wait a day or two, for Pratyeka's next response, before taking this up with ArbCom? We have nothing to lose from that. It will give him a chance to reflect on and absorb what's happening here. And, depending on his response, may save everybody a lot of time and trouble. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 14:40, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

He's said he's away for a while now, and any ArbCom case would have to be delayed until he is able to comment (and he's not going to be misusing the tools while he's not here), so I'd be in favour of delaying for a couple of days. It sounds like he's not going to be available to comment over the next couple of days, mind, but it can't do any harm to give it a go. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:30, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm afraid I missed this section, and have filed the case. I did leave a note that he was out of touch for a couple of weeks and requested that ArbCom wait for him to get back before taking any action. GregJackP Boomer! 01:21, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Would you consider withdrawing the ArbCom case for now (If you run it by Sarek, who is the only respondent so far, you can probably just blank it.) It would be better, in my opinion, if we (and prat) spent more time deliberating and considering the facts, and ideal of course if we had a chance to involve prat in more dialogue before handing it to ArbCom. Some people do change with sensitive engagement. We may have a more useful result all round, and take up a lot less of everyone's precious time, if we make haste slowly. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 02:29, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

I would have no objection, I just wanted to address that one particular point for now. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 02:33, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I don't know that I can do that. Only ArbCom members and clerks can remove cases once they have been filed. GregJackP Boomer! 02:34, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

I've done it, and if the clerks or ArbCom have a problem, they can restore it. If you leave a link to this thread in your edit summary, that should answer any queries. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 02:45, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Not finding things with two hands and a flashlight

I find myself quoting Andrew Shepherd again. People, there is not a direct run from the Administrators' Noticeboard for Incidents to Requests for Arbitration. There's a notice in a box at the head of this page that says this. Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Pratyeka is still all red linked and inviting, and it will prevent those big old arbitrators from taking the standard line of turfing you right out of RFAR on your collective ears with the usual So what did you actually do to resolve the situation, using the very processes that the community has constructed for giving mass feedback to one person on issues of that person's use of the MediaWiki toolset, before taking this avenue of last resort? question.

There is a second box at the head of this page that points out that discussions here are archived after (currently) 36 hours. Again, the sensible course of action is not to hold a discussion like this on a noticeboard that by its very nature is not constructed to deal with things that involve waiting for an editor who is Away From Internet for a period of days. User talk:Pratyeka is not exactly full, either.

This isn't the first time that a whole bunch of people have leapt right over RFC from AN/I and expected a poll of little more than 24 hours on a rapidly-archived noticeboard to be the sensible parallel to week-long discussions elsewhere. Nor is it the first time that a group of people bang on about what Wikipedia policies and practices are, and how others should follow them, but nonetheless themselves collectively fail to find Project:Requests for comment/User conduct with both hands and a flashlight. This time, I'm speaking up to get people to do things right. You all (supposedly) know where RFC is, and you all (supposedly) know what arbitrators always require as a pre-requisite to any such case, and will probably require in this instance. So do things right, for goodness' sake!

Uncle G (talk) 10:36, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

• Well said. NE Ent 12:10, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Agreed. Calling for desysop when an RfA would run for 7 days tells me some people are rushing to the conclusion and don't let other evidences surface. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 16:13, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
    • Perhaps there is a rush to skip RFC because there hasn't been sufficient efforts yet to resolve the dispute, and thus, an RFC would not be certified as valid. If anybody wants to approach the subject and invite him to my talk page for a conversation about their complaints, I would be happy to host a discussion among the relevant parties. This venue, ANI, is not very well suited to resolving conflicts. It's just a bunch of driveby feedback. Jehochman ^Talk 17:13, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
      • Not making sufficient efforts to resolve the dispute beforehand is a reason that things get turfed out of RFAR, too. So it would be really very stupid to be skipping over RFC for that reason. The course of action that isn't stupid is of course to make those efforts, beforehand. Only two people, out of all of the above, have even participated at User talk:Pratyeka. I applaud your offer of your user talk page. Uncle G (talk) 11:06, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
• I think you're quite right, Uncle G, at least according to the way things currently work. But my view is that things currently work badly, there is too much bureaucracy, and that an admin openly stating that he is not bound by consensus should be grounds for instant desysop - with the possibility of appeal. I also think that there should be a community desysop process - but we've never achieved anything in that direction.

  My feeling is also that RFC is another big bureaucratic waste of time. It's entirely voluntary, and will only achieve anything if Pratyeka volunteers to abide by the rules. But if he's going to do that, then we don't need an RFC - he can just say so here, or on his talk page, or at the ArbCom request, and it'll all be over.

  Anyway, the current bureaucratic excess is what we're stuck with, and so far it's looking as if ArbCom are unlikely to accept the case. So my thoughts now are that we should wait for Pratyeka's return and see what he has to say - we can show him this ANI and ask him on his talk page. If he agrees to follow the rules, we're done - but if he doesn't, RFC will achieve nothing more than filling a checkbox on the bureaucracy-lovers' charts and it'll have to end up back at ArbCom anyway. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:22, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

  • It's a bit rich to be talking of "bureaucracy lovers" when the whole issue here is that someone ignored processes. Either Pratyeka gets to ignore the processes as much as the complainants are also trying to, or the both of you have to follow procedures. Again, you are assuming from the outset that a mass of people expressing their opinion to Pratyeka, at User talk:Pratyeka or on the still-redlinked-and-inviting Project:Requests for comment/Pratyeka, is somehow not going to change Pratyeka's mind. On the contrary: That is how, by discussion and persuasion, our community has decided to work. Negative feedback comes from the community as a whole, via user talk pages, third opinions, and requests for comment. It isn't imposed by a 24-hour straw poll on a rapidly-archived noticeboard for administrators handling "incidents". Community norms, and the negative pressure against people that enforces community norms, are a community thing.

    It's saddening to see you not seeing that what's been done here is in fact the timewasting excess of bureaucracy: a pointless and wasteful round trip through RFAR where I and (supposedly) everyone here knew ahead of time what the arbitrators would say (because we know that they require people to make the proper efforts at dispute resolution beforehand). The problem here, and the true reason that things currently work badly, is not excess bureaucracy, as you mischaracterize dispute resolution. It's a collective unwillingness to edit User talk:Pratyeka and to make a simple bluelink at Project:Requests for comment/Pratyeka amongst people who (supposedly) know that those are the right first steps with their views.

    The collective inability exhibited here, by editors who (supposedly) know all this, to do things that are a lot simpler to effect than an arbitration request — and to find RFC with both hands and a flashlight — is saddening. This is the right thing to do; and in a situation where the major complaint is You didn't follow SD/AFD/DRV procedures! the complainants should all better be setting a good example themselves by following dispute resolution procedures.

    Uncle G (talk) 11:06, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

    • Sure, I agree it looks like RFC is the way this thing is heading, as that that is "the proper way", and I'm not surprised that that's the way the Arbs are leaning - but I'm quite entitled to express my opinion that the current "proper way", which involves everyone repeating themselves in yet a third forum, is full of wasteful baggage. I reckon the best way forward is to leave it to Dennis or Casliber to have a private word with Pratyeka when he gets back and see where that gets us - if that works, then there will simply be no need to go any further down the bureaucratic road. But I do agree with you on one point - this discussion here is itself a waste of time, so I will take my leave of it. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 20:46, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
• A RFC is pointless in a case like this, where it would just be a necessary form to file before the thing would go to ArbCom anyway. --Rschen7754 07:20, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
  • That is a problem with your expectations that you are always doomed to fail, not with RFC. Try beginning with the expectation that a mass of feedback from a lot of people on xyr user talk page and at RFC will change Pratyeka's mind, instead. Community norms are community enforced, and you are the community. So bring in your third opinions to User talk:Pratyeka. Do your long list of "support"s on Project:Requests for comment/Pratyeka. Do things right, especially when your complaint is that someone else didn't do things right. Uncle G (talk) 11:06, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
• It would be so helpful in a case like this—an admin who's barely used the tools and who was admin-ed when four !votes could make an admin—if we could just call for a fresh RfA.  davidiad { t } 09:08, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
  • If you want him to re-run RfA, then just ask him on his talk page - if he says no, an RFC will make no difference, because it has no power whatsoever. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:14, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
    • You're right ... and it a stupid thought anyway, as an RfA under these circumstances and in the recent RfA climate would simply be a resignation with a crowd.  davidiad { t } 09:21, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
• Here is my prediction coming true: Of the 7 arbitrators who have declined so far, four (NuclearWarfare, SilkTork, Salvio giuliano, and Carcharoth) have explicitly mentioned RFC, and a fifth (Newyorkbrad) has echoed the rationales of two of those four. I repeat: You are banging on about someone else following procedures, you all (supposedly) know that you don't do this on AN/I, and you all (supposedly) know where Wikipedia:Requests for comment is. Do things right. How can you collectively be so unable to start a simple RFC? Or even to join in the discussions at User talk:Pratyeka? If you have strong views on these uses of the tools, why aren't you conveying them to Pratyeka? Go to User talk:Pratyeka. Put up Project:Requests for comment/Pratyeka. Do things right, and follow procedures yourselves. Uncle G (talk) 11:06, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
• Casliber and Dennis Brown are willing to have a chat with Pratyeka when he's back online, if their schedules permit, exploring with him his views, his current skill set and his readiness to conform to the current norms. They'll then report to ANI the results of that dialogue. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 10:33, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Excellent - that sounds like the best way forward -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:01, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
    • Exactly. Talk to the bloke and try to persuade xem first. In addition to the above applause, I also applaud the two of you for being the only two people who went to User talk:Pratyeka. Uncle G (talk) 11:06, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
      • Actually, I went there too - and from the tone of the discussion already in progress (utter unrepetantness exactly as above - "I don't have to listen to your silly 'consensus' because WP:ILIKEIT and I know best") saw no point in further timewasting there. I suspect others thought the same. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 12:47, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

• Ditto. GregJackP Boomer! 00:24, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

• Realistically, what's your goal: a desysopped admin, OR an admin who understands policies. If, in the process of the RFC, the admin clearly expresses a) their errors, and b) proper understanding of the policies that they have broken, AND c) shows signs that they will improve on those issues and their recognition that they need to be responsive to the community, then we have a win-win situation (✉→BWilkins←✎) 13:00, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Well, if we really want to be realistic, we have to look and see what outcomes are plausible. If Pratyeka doesn't want to change, then no amount of talking with him or RFCing is going to do anything, and we'll be right back here in a month or two. Might as well save the time and effort and get it over with. --Rschen7754 00:42, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
    • Since the previous two conferences in the Observe Hack Mack series, Hacking at Random, and Hackers at Large ended up with articles we'll just create the article in six or seven months. Might as well save time and effort and restore the article now. (This where we realize the not following procedure to deal with an admin not following procedure is just a bit inconsistent.) NE Ent 01:38, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

In mythical man month author Fred Brooks gives the example of managers thinking if a woman can give birth to a child in one month, they can hire nine women to get a child in on month. Similarly, there's a mythical editor intervention concept that if n editors unsuccessfully addressed an editor on a talk page, n + 1 editors won't be effective. Back when we had an WQA I often observed that the more distinct editors that relayed the same message the more likely it would be to take effect. It's best to address non-troll/vandal editors first on their talk page, even if some other's got there before you did. It might work, and if it doesn't you can make a definitive statement that it didn't rather than a speculative statement that it wouldn't have. NE Ent 01:38, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Actually, it's more like n editors have failed to make the case, so perhaps 1 editor will be able to - that's what I'm hoping. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 04:31, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

This ANI thread and arbcom comments may be far more convincing then any editor could. "Gallows" have been set up for everyone to see, he needs to be completely delusional if he doesn't get that now only "right answers" can save him from quick desysop. Although even with right answers it may remain questionable if he can actually regain trust.--Staberinde (talk) 07:50, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

My comment is actually wrong. The n editors here at ANI have not failed - as Pratyeka is away, we simply don't know. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 07:52, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Casliber (talk · contribs) and Dennis Brown (talk · contribs) have agreed that one or both of them, schedules permitting, will talk things over with Pratyeka when he returns. Perhaps we could leave this for now and await their comments after that. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 14:08, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Rigged votes/WP:MEAT violation

Please help. The article MUD_trees was nominated for deletion, but the votes were rigged by "MUD" owners who listed their MUD on the page, as you can see on their forum here: http://www.topmudsites.com/forums/tavern-blue-hand/5287-defense-all-muds-our-genres-noteworthiness-being-questioned-16.html EternalFlare (talk) 11:56, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

Even as a non-admin close, this wasn't a controversial interpretation of the discussion that took place, and while several of the comments were plainly canvassed there were also multiple comments from established editors which expressed the same sentiments. You could ask for it to be relisted at WP:DRV on the grounds that it was a NAC unduly influenced by cancassed opinions, though. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 12:09, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

I have requested that the user involved in the closure re-nominate the article for deletion for multiple reasons. It should be noted that Sue Rangell (talk · contribs) has been advised on at least 2 occasions this month to be exceptionally careful with their Non-Admin Closures. I will not make any recommendations regarding how we can improve the AfD closures as I am one of the ones who has previously complained about their NACs. Hasteur (talk) 17:52, 25 January 2013 (UTC)

I think she can just revert her closure, and then relist. I've suggested it to her. DGG ( talk ) 05:03, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Why would you do that, Hasteur? Would you have done the same if it were an admin? I can't imagine any sane editor, admin or not, would not come to a "keep" from that discussion. There seems to be a recent trend of "OHMYGOODNESS NAC MUST SCREAM" that is both counterproductive and highly unpleasant. It's a solid keep. Get over it. Trouts to EternalFlare for bringing it here and Hasteur for encouraging such nonsence. --Nouniquenames 02:34, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

And you should know that there's a certain threshold that users need to be warned to not do dumb things. So, please don't make it about me... Hasteur (talk) 04:09, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Nothing dumb was done in the AfD close, though. The threshold was not met. --Nouniquenames 16:28, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Have to completely disagree with Hasteur's actions here. The NAC closer had not participated in the discussion, and the discussion was such a landslide of policy-based keeps (with one option to "keep or merge") that it was one of the snowiest possible closes - exactly the type that NAC's are for. Why in any deity's name you would bust their chops for the right close based on all evidence is beyond me. Seriously Hasteur - give your head a little shake, please (✉→BWilkins←✎) 16:43, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

The link in the OP clearly shows meatpuppetry going on. --Saddhiyama (talk) 12:49, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Yeah that's really an obnoxious thread to read. Textbook meatpuppetry and apparent lynchmob efforts made to harass and out the original nom by a crew of conspiracy-minded forum dwellers who seem to find the rules here inscrutable. Asking Sue Rangell to re-open her NAC was certainly appropriate but she seems to be on strike due to the recent loss of her rollback privileges (or maybe she's just taking a WikiBreak™, who knows). So I think DRV is the best move. Given the participation in the AfD I wouldn't bet on a different outcome, but the AfD was clearly tainted. -Thibbs (talk) 17:38, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

(EC) While I agree the offsite canvassing (seemingly resurrected from the same thing in 2010) is rather unfortunate particularly given some of the comments there, it seems to me that's largely separate from the appropriateness of the NAC. From what I can tell, most of the people there were fairly established wikipedians, so I don't think there's reason to think the closer missed anything that an admin wouldn't have. And I don't think there's any suggestion the closer came from the forum. Now that the off-site canvassing has been brought to light, we could revisit the closure itself, but it seems to me even with the canvassing, there's no way a delete is coming from that so the options are either keep it as keep, relist or close as 'no consensus'. If people feel this is worth considering they could open a DRV or ask the closer about it (but again it doesn't imply the closer made an inappropriate close). The only other thing is whether we have to do anything about the canvassing particularly in light of some of the comments. I would say no, since it seems they now accept canvassing is not acceptable even if they don't all agree with it. And if anything does come from the threats we can take action about those then. Similarly, if the harassment continues, we could look at what, if anything, we can do about it. Nil Einne (talk) 17:46, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

That's sensible, Nil Einne. Just for the record we should note that EternalFlare had recently (on January 27) been charged with sockpuppetry at this declined SPI (without an accompanying user talk warning). I'm still assuming good faith in all the actors at this point, but certainly if this rises to the level of harassment then steps will have to be taken to curb it. -Thibbs (talk) 19:32, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

SPA at Dale Bozzio of the unconstructive kind

At Dale Bozzio, there's been some disagreement, to put it mildy. The Master (talk · contribs), an editor with around 200 article edits and few interests outside of the Bozzio article, has been edit-warring for quite some time now with the clear intent of removing as much material as possible. They do have in interest in inserting material, material that was deemed problematic at the BLP noticeboard. See Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive165#Dale_Bozzio, and note that while Malerooster wasn't opposed to inclusion if the sources were deemed reliable, no such verdict was ever sought at the RS noticeboard.

If you look at The Master's edits you see what it is that they want, and while it is true that the article can do with improvement, edits such as this are unwarranted: it removes factual material that while unreferenced is hardly controversial in any way. Now, on the other side we have Doc2234 (talk · contribs), who is probably a fan, and who has in the past asked me for advice. Doc at least tries to improve the article, and the accusation (more in a moment) that they're turning this into some fan page misses the mark by a pretty wide margin.

As for that accusation--well, the cat came out of the bag in The Master's latest comment on the talk page: This article is basically a hagiography of a former singer in a one-hit-wonder band written by a bunch of guys who had crushes on her after seeing her in the "Words" video. That note, a blatant personal attack disguised as a rant, was the straw that broke this camel's back, which is why I bring this here: The Master cannot seem to work together with other people to improve this article, they have no interest in improving any other article, they are edit-warring and editing against consensus, they resort to personal attacks, and they obviously have an odd interest in this particular article--in short, they are not here to improve the project. I propose that The Master be topic-banned from the article and its talk page, broadly construed--to include Zappa-related pages, for instance. Disclosure: I've never seen the "Words" video, I don't know that I know that song, and I don't think Dale Bozzio is my type. Drmies (talk) 02:24, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

• Hello? Duke game is over, people. Back to work. Drmies (talk) 23:15, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
  • I guess everyone realizes that your accusations are without merit. I deleted content that was unsourced. Should people now be topic banned for deleting unsourced claims from a BLP? And why didn't you attempt to discuss the deletions before rushing off to ask admins to topic ban me? You should be admonished. The Master (talk) 07:27, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
    • We've discussed this many times. Was there some special need for me to discuss your insulting message on the article talk page? How 'bout I slap an only warning for personal attacks on your talk page? Drmies (talk) 15:15, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
    • FWIW: The Master (who had a somewhat troubled past here already) discovers Dale Bozzio in November 2012, adding content about a conviction for animal abuse, not longer after finding their calling as a cat defender. True advocacy: The Master has had no interest here in music, musicians, or anything like it. *Addendum: The Master was a different user before, with more interests than just Bozzio. I don't know how exciting that is and how relevant here; details can be gleaned from the history of their talk page. Drmies (talk) 16:12, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
      • Second time I'm asking this: I deleted content that was unsourced. Should people now be topic banned for deleting unsourced claims from a BLP? Are you just going to ignore that and keep commenting on contributors rather than content, as you yourself are violating WP:NPA? I find it telling that nobody but you seems to have a problem with my edits at that page. Is there a reason you're so interested in presenting the subject in the best possible light? Or are you just dragging this to the drama boards because of your dislike for me in general? Again, your claims and accusations are pathetic and laughable. The Master (talk) 21:44, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
• I'm uninvolved, so I'll jump in. Frankly, it's hard to like The Master's style, but Drmies is pretty combative too. The cat stuff is a tossup, since the sourcing looks weak and you can make a case for WP:UNDUE. The deletions of material are questionable... is there no way to find sources for her released works? I can see why no one wants to comment... this is a mess. I am not sure sanctions are called for at this point, though I can see why Drmies brought this here. One possible solution: is there a mediator in the house? Jusdafax 08:20, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Jusdafax, this has been going on for a while now. If there were agreement at the BLP noticeboard that the cat is a toss-up (sounds like animal abuse to me) I would have had no problem with its inclusion. But it seems pretty clear to me that The Master, since he didn't get his way that time (and I'll be the first to say that there wasn't a resounding consensus for its exclusion), is taking it out on Dale Bozzio in as many ways as he can, removing inoffensive and uncontroversial material from the article in a manner that is disruptive. Doc seems pretty frustrated with it and I am too. And what about that talk page comment? How is that not a personal attack? Drmies (talk) 14:41, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
  • I've sourced the basics, which took about an hour because my typing skills are lacking. BLPs deserve every bit of attention we can bring to them but the sources were easy to find, and plentiful, so I'm thinking removal was a bit hasty. Tiderolls 11:25, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
    • I would like to comment. I have not had much time to devote to Wikipedia over the past couple of weeks. Please allow me to put my thoughts together and upload my view of this, this evening if possible. Thanks. Doc2234 (talk) 11:33, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
    • Tide, I am very impressed with your work on the article: thank you so much. If The Master promises he can simply leave the article alone, I'd be happy enough and we can close this thread. Drmies (talk) 14:48, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
      • If the claims have been sourced then fine. But unsourced claims will continue to be removed from this and from every other article in which I notice them. The guidelines say that unsourced content can and should be removed, not that people should wait until sources are found. Saying that it's wrong to remove unsourced content is 100% incorrect. The first thing you did was to call me a SPA and claim that I have "few interests outside of the Dale Bozzio article", both of which are patently false personal attacks. What I promise to do is continue removing unsourced content or content sources to unreliable sources per Wikipedia guidelines. The Master ---)Vote Saxon(--- 03:48, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
        • Nice use of the passive in laying down the law. No, our guidelines don't say that all. Your edit history is pretty indicative of your single purpose here (so, neither false nor a personal attack), whereas you have no proof that I'm a male person who watched some video in the 1980s and let that guide my edits (that was a pretty silly remark you made on that talk page and says more about you as an editor than about your intended target). Your promise, though, should be tempered with a bit of knowledge of our guidelines: there is no imperative to remove unsourced content. If you wanted to be a productive editor, you'd help source content. Drmies (talk) 03:59, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
          • • Three comments and I’ll be as brief as I can be (I know that I tend to get long-winded):

1. The personal attack comment left on the Dale Bozzio talk page here referred to the writers of the article as “a bunch of guys who had crushes on her”. I think it is worthwhile to point out that contributors to the article include at least four adminstrators and a number of editors who have substantial knowledge about the subject. The body of administrators and editors who have edited this article is composed of both men and women.

2. Concerning deletion of content, there were 22 edits performed by The Master that either deleted material or set the stage for deleting material over a 2 month period – heavy activity from one user for this page. Both sourced and unsourced material was deleted, including a sourced statement in the Frank Zappa section that was reviewed by the Frank Zappa WikiProject in the Dale Bozzio help requested section here and re-added here and once again deleted here. Could admins please review this information and render an opinion on whether it should be included? Thank you for your thoughts.

3. My sincere thanks to those who have spent time to re-add information back into the article. Doc2234 (talk) 10:18, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

1) This whole thread is pathetic.

2) Drmies constantly violates NPA by commenting on contributors rather than content.

3) Being a Wikipedia administrator in this day and age is hardly an indication of personal honor.

4) The pretense that Wikipedia is governed by policies and guidelines is the greatest joke of the internet. It's governed by mob rule and cliques of people who protect their favorite articles in their preferred version.

5) This thread is intended to goad me into an outburst so Drmies can ban me. He's decided I'm an "enemy" for having the gall to delete unsourced claims. The accusations of "SPA" are pure bullshit and intended to have a chilling effect on my editing at that article. The Master ---)Vote Saxon(--- 03:26, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Funny that in point (2) you make an accusation of personal attacks - and then in point (5) you make a personal attack. Don't. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 10:15, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

That should be enough of railing against the system, The Master. You are not required to get the point, it simply makes your job easier and more enjoyable. This thread has left the realm of constructive discussion and should be closed. Tiderolls 05:11, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Audition date website link

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Special:Contributions/Iamrakeshh has added a non/notable/below standard site's link in a bunch of article's external link section. Manually reversion will take time! Can an admin quickly revert all edit using any tool (if there is any)? --Tito Dutta (talk) 14:25, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm not an admin, but I think I've cleaned out all of his/her link spamming now. --—Wasell^(T) 15:59, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

There is a tool for this that can be used in extreme cases - Special:Nuke. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 12:43, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Nuke only does articles created, as opposed to mere edits ... at least last time I checked. Mass rollback, maybe ... (✉→BWilkins←✎) 16:37, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Clearly what's needed then is Special:EditShatteringKaboom. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:43, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

User came back, started mass spamming again, I reported to AIV, user is now blocked. Werieth (talk) 15:51, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Short term block proposal: User:Danjel

There's arguing to make a point, there's arguing for the sake of arguing, and then there's just plain arguing with everyone whether or not they agree with you. Such is the disruptive and boggling behavior of User:Danjel.

See: Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Epeefleche various users have commented on Danjel's behavior:

• Epeefleche - "wikihounding" diff
• bobrayner - took exception to refactoring and edit-warring over his comments first revert second revert third revert bobraynor takes exception
• TP - 'Borderline WP:IDHT' [108]
• Starblind - "Well past WP:IDHT" [109]
• Kww - "disruptive" [110]

I first came into contact with the user at the article All Hallows' School where I was attempting to create a resilient content solution which would satisfy all the concerns of inclusionists and deletionists and thus remove all boilerplates for sourcing with an absolute minimum of loss of information. I met with procedural objections diff], a behavioral warning based on my interpretation of content policy,[111] further argumentation past the point where I've indicated a desire to disengage,diff a warning of impending problems for me in the future in the context of Epeefleche's AN/I and RfC/U, which I construed as a threat,diff and various modifications of responding editors at the RfC/U in addition to responding to views on the title page instead of the talk page which seems to indicate the user thinks they WP:OWN the discussion. It seems like there is a building consensus that this user is being disruptive and cannot be talked with constructively. I thought I would provide diffs of my own aggravation with the user and provide other editors with an opportunity to do the same. Recommend a brief block to chill out and let the RfC/U on Epeefleche focus on constructive improvements for that editor without Danjel's behavior being the focus of it. ClaudeReigns (talk) 20:12, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

• (Non-admin) I think it's rather nice of you to propose a short term block, ClaudeReigns. Looking at Danjel's behavior and past comments, I'm inclined to agree with Starblind from Epeefleche's RFC - Well past WP:IDHT; and in my opinion, borderline on WP:STROLLER, and a considerably longer block. He needs to become a honey badger, settle down, and let it go. Essays do make sense sometimes. Fish^Barking? 22:00, 27 January 2013 (UTC)
• Since TP disagreed with Danjel on the RfC/U, Danjel tried to get TP recalled; that's a classy move. I'm trying to avoid getting sucked into another lengthy discussion with danjel, which is not something that I enjoy and it doesn't seem that danjel enjoyed it either, so I won't reopen the disagreement between Danjel and I; the comments are out there on a couple of pages for all to see, hopefully it's over now. I think many RfC/Us tend to start out noisy and then become calmer; maybe in a few days that RfC/U will calm down somewhat. bobrayner (talk) 23:16, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

So, let me get this straight. You take your opponent in a discussion to ANI. Then, as evidence of his problematic behaviour, you point to the subjective comments of an individual defending himself at RFC/U and people who are strongly defending that person, their friend. You then selectively WP:CANVAS those individuals who have opposed my position at the RFC/U to come to this thread (diff, diff and diff) presumably to sway this discussion in your direction also.

As additional evidence, you provide things like this [diff, where you felt "threatened", because I told you (fairly politely, I have to say, because you were rambling) that you can't ask for scanned copies of references. Besides that you set a weird WP:DEADLINE of 24 hours (diff, instead of just removing content that you were challenging, per WP:BRD, as I suggested at diff), and that you were being a bit WP:POINTy ("if you can" at diff), your work at All Hallows' School was good (and I acknowledged so at User_talk:ClaudeReigns#The Citation Barnstar). Even so, you then argued first with User:Bilby, and then with me about whether a source is valid if you can't see it (see the diff at the beginning). In fact, that whole discussion (at User_talk:ClaudeReigns#Fran Bailey) is an exercise in bizarre.

And it appears that, despite your claim to consensus, there is a movement away from such edits. There is now a footnote at WP:V ([Wikipedia:Verifiability#cite_note-3]]), although it was edited in after the beginning of the RFC/U, so I have chosen not to raise it at the RFC/U until it's clear that the behaviour is still ongoing. The footnote states:

When tagging or removing such material, please keep in mind that such edits can be easily misunderstood. Some editors object to others making chronic, frequent, and large-scale deletions of unsourced information, especially if unaccompanied by other efforts to improve the material. Do not concentrate only on material of a particular POV, as that may result in accusations that you are in violation of WP:NPOV. Also check to see whether the material is sourced to a citation elsewhere on the page. For all of these reasons, it is advisable to communicate clearly that you have a considered reason to believe that the material in question cannot be verified.

...In this case, the deletion is large scale, there's no other efforts to improve the material, there seems to be a concentration on particular material (regarding Middle Eastern subjects), there are frequently already acceptable citations in the text, there was little to no attempt to communicate any concerns (besides "d per tag" and so on). I am one of those "some editors" who object to such practices. Therefore the RFC/U is completely legitimate.

In regards to recalling TParis, I note that you've decided to only link to part of the discussion. I actually assumed that Kudpung was a friend and could therefore mediate between us. I later stated that I wasn't looking to recall (diff). In any case, I wasn't aware that questioning an admin's actions and exploring recall (even if I were) was against any policy?

No evidence has been supplied of any policy or behavioural issue, except that I am in opposition to ClaudeReigns' friend. So, besides that I'm an opponent, and a healthy dose of delusional paranoia (threats?), there's not much more to respond to here. This is an attempt to silence an opponent and nothing more. ˜danjel [ talk | contribs ] 23:20, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

I later stated that I wasn't looking to recall And yet you brought up fact that TParis can be recalled in your very first sentence. Recall has to do with mediation how, exactly? --Calton | Talk 01:31, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that's right. I presumed that Kudpung was friends with TParis because he is listed on TParis' recall page. Don't you think that if I were interested in recall, I would have approached any of the other admins also? Even so, would you like to direct me to the policy or guideline that forbids anything relating to admin recall? I've asked ClaudeReigns, but s/he's not forthcoming either. ˜danjel [ talk | contribs ] 01:55, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

The point which you are missing -- or avoiding -- is that you mentioned recall in your very first sentence, and yet we're expected to believe that it's irrelevant. That fact that you didn't -- or haven't -- approached other admins is irrelevant.

..would you like to direct me to the policy or guideline that forbids anything relating to admin recall? Would you like to point me where I made, suggested, hinted, or waved vaguely in the direction of that suggestion? Take your time. But still, that bit of Wikilawyering tells me that yes, you are thinking of recall. --Calton | Talk 08:53, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

"delusional paranoia" - careful with those personal attacks there, tiger. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:59, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, what should I call it when a user interprets threats on the basis of, for example [diff]? ˜danjel [ talk | contribs ] 04:26, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Not that. Do not speculate on the mental states or motivations of other editors. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 05:25, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

In Danjel's world, we are with few exceptions insane. And I have a furry white cat in my lap. :) ClaudeReigns (talk) 07:13, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Can the user state in a non-sarcastic and utterly serious tone that my work will continue unimpeded by he or his high school students at the conclusion of this affair? I would find it highly assuring and a welcome departure in tone. ClaudeReigns (talk) 07:13, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Can you find a single instance that your work was impeded by me or any of my high school students? Didn't think so. ˜danjel [ talk | contribs ] 07:21, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Once again, a clear olive branch is rejected in favor of contention. The user refuses to offer the assurance. ClaudeReigns (talk) 07:31, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

I am accused of WP:CANVAS violation in this discussion by the responding user, Danjel. WP:CANVAS states that supplying notification is appropriate "On the talk pages of a user mentioned in the discussion (particularly if the discussion concerns complaints about user behavior)." I have interpreted this to mean that in mentioning those users and requesting the diffs for their statements, I am right to attempt to ascertain if their statements were appropriate. If those deciding this matter deem my action in doing so inappropriate, it should be explained to me. If however my actions are appropriate, it should be explained to you. Beyond that, I have no need to argue the point. ClaudeReigns (talk) 03:31, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support block, and provide additional evidence: You've mentioned several other editors who Danjel has locked horns with. I'd like to add my name to that list. As a result of an AfD of Middle Harbour Public Schools, he not only went after Epeefleche, but me as well, accusing me of incompetence because I didn't see eye to eye with him. Not willing to let sleeping dogs lie, he went ballistic at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chili burger, calling it a "clusterfuck", accusing other editors of being Cabals and Meatpuppets, and turning it into some sort of personal indictment against me, while repeatedly referencing Middle Harbour, even though Middle Harbour and chili burgers have about as little in common with each other as any two articles on this Wiki. After Chili burger was closed as keep due to overwhelming consensus to do so, he almost immediately started a pair of ill-conceived merge discussions, then continued mudslinging against me and others so quickly that the merge discussion had to be speedily closed to prevent WWIII. All the while, I tried telling him to cool off; his response was to delete my overtures as vandalism. It's blatantly clear that Danjel has problems with accepting consensus, and with those who disagree with him, with this ridiculous action against TParis being the last in a long line of examples pbp 01:52, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

PBP's comments above should be taken with exactly one grain of salt. He has previously dragged me here on no less than three occasions for much drama here at ANI (Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive777#User:Danjel, Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive739#User:Danjel and [[112]]). No diffs of any policy violations, certainly no diffs of his telling me to "cool off" (noting, as is discussed in one of the archived threads above, that he has previously been told to stay off my talkpage ad doesn't). No evidence nor policy issues brought up, so essentially a worthless post. In fact, the whole post is suggestive of the WP:COMPETENCE issues I (and others) have previously raised in the previous ANI threads. It's not surprising that he has come out in support of Epeefleche though. I had, actually, been pleasantly surprised to see no comments from him (up to now, alas). ˜danjel [ talk | contribs ] 02:00, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

This is about you. You've just corroborated what I said: that you can't get along with me, and that you not being able to get along with me has resulted in three ANI threads before this one, ones in which only you were advancing incompetence claims. You're making an absolutely wonderful case for your ability to get along with others And as for the "no diffs" argument, I blue-linked a discussion where you commented more than 30 times. That's more than enough diffs pbp 02:51, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

So if this is about me, and discussion should be limited to me (and my actions and so forth), should I now count on you to strikethrough your comments about me at the RFC/U wherein the subject is Epeefleche? Didn't think so. ˜danjel [ talk | contribs ] 02:56, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

• Comment. I do see as legitimate the issues raised by Claude, Starblind, BobRayner, TP, KWW, Fishbarking, Callton, Bushranger, and pbp -- above and in the above diffs.

And the diffs just scratch the surface of the battleground created by Danjel. For example -- one might look at the discussions with AN/I-closing sysop TP here. And the parallel discussion here.

Or one might look at the reverts at the RFC. Until today, I had not looked at the RFC for many days. Now, going through the edit history I see that it has been a battleground littered with squabbles between Danjel and other editors who saw things differently than he did.

And his edit history shows that he is singularly focused on this course of action; it is the bulk of his editing for the past days -- I wonder whether this focus of his is perhaps not in the best interests of the project.

And, as I just added mention of at the RFC/U, his hounding of me has continued even during the RFC. Even after input to him at the AN/I, and from the sysop who closed it, and from others. He does not seem to be inclined to listen to it.

I would appreciate an interaction ban being placed on Danjel, given all the evidence linked to at the RFC and the above, so that he stops following me around the Project. This has gone on for a year, is disruptive, and continues despite all manner of community and sysop input.

As to the block proposal -- I'll, at least at this point, not comment, and leave it for others to decide whether that is appropriate or not.--Epeefleche (talk) 03:01, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

You're right! The RFC/U has been quite squabbly! It's good to know that you have friends. Meanwhile, there were 3 other editors, who have also expressed concerns and you haven't even vaguely attempted to address them. Nor will you. Because the purpose of this, just like the purpose of the squabbling over there, is to allow you to evade responsibility. There's not much else to say. ˜danjel [ talk | contribs ] 03:08, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

If you're including me among Epeefleche's "friends", you need to dial back the persecution complex. I'm actually sympathetic to your view -- if you're going to go to the trouble opening the edit window to delete something, why can't you be arsed to do a quick check, at least? -- but you're doing yourself no favors here. --Calton | Talk 09:01, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm not counting you among Epeefleche's "friends". I think that there's a distinction between his "friends" and people who are just commenting from a considered opinion. Compare, for example, Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Epeefleche#Outside view by Blueboar and Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Epeefleche#Outside view by Kww (even if he does think I'm re-adding unreferenced material, which is wrong) with virtually every other post on that page. For a further example, see the baying for blood that is occuring down below. ˜danjel [ talk | contribs ] 01:41, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose Block (for now)/ Support Interaction Ban I am completely underwhelmed by the arguments that User:Danjel has made at the RfC/U in question. The issues raised are either non-violations or trivial nitpicking, and the proposes remedies are unjustified and unreasonable. Community consensus seems to be that the problem here is Danjel, not EF. I think that in trying to impose his views of how other editors should act, that Danjel has lost sight of what our ultimate purpose is: to build an encyclopedia. All of the rhetoric and piling on of claims and counterclaims by Danjel have only served to waste more and more time. Danjel has not convinced the community, his mind will not be changed and the RfC/U is going nowhere but downhill. Unfortunately, Danjel appears utterly unable to deal with EF in civil fashion. The world of Wikipedia is more than large enough to allow enough editing space for both editors, and an imposition of an interaction ban on Danjel with any of EF's work should be enough to keep the peace here. In the event that an interaction ban does not resolve the issue and Danjel is instigating further conflict, a block might well be justified. Alansohn (talk) 04:05, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

I totally get what you're saying, but in light of what pbp is saying about his interactions, and the issue of what I construed as a veiled threat, (now more clearly substantiated by php's observations) it seems likely there will be another user who will have to deal with this. I am not saying an interaction ban isn't a good idea (I actually didn't know that was an option - sounds great) but I would still be concerned if the RfC/U will be closed constructively with Epeefleche receiving helpful advice focused on him alone, (otherwise it truly was a waste of time) and that other users would not fall victim to idle hands. This behavior doesn't just magically stop when Epeefleche isn't around. Epeefleche is not the trigger. ClaudeReigns (talk) 04:21, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

I decided to follow my own logic. A search bears out another warning about wikihounding from two years ago, totally unrelated to Epeefleche. Here's another accusation of wikihounding which danjel took to AN/I last year, also unrelated to Epeefleche. If one person says it, it can possibly be blown off. If two people say it, perhaps cause for concern. If three people say it, perhaps it's true and pattern behavior. ClaudeReigns (talk) 05:54, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

What on Earth are you talking about? Did you click through to Wikipedia:Wikiquette_assistance/archive115#Jayjg_accusing_me_of_wikihounding? Where is my name mentioned? ˜danjel [ talk | contribs ] 05:58, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Another of Epeefleche's supporters, Hasteur, has started Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Violation_of_WP:NOSHARE. I look forward to being mentioned at WP:AN3 and WP:AC by the end of the day. ˜danjel [ talk | contribs ] 04:30, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose Block - For what it's worth, while I do personally understand Epeefleche's intentions in removing unsourced content - (I tend to do the same!) - I will not understand nor condone what seems like borderline character assassination against an editor who has had good-faith intentions - although, may have misrepresented them at times. A temporary block against Danjel isn't going to fix the somewhat grey-area that is: preserving unsourced material vs. removing it. Danjel has knocked heads with a number of editors — as has probably everybody else here. Mentioning things such as a supposed violation of WP:NOSHARE and a recall against TParis (which he specifically mentions isn't a recall) are just examples of cherry-picking, and that won't get us anywhere. A block seems punitive at this stage, and frankly, we'd be going back to square one. I would encourage Danjel to take a step back from this, reflect on his behaviour that he has engaged in with other editors, and perhpas think of a possible solution. I also a Support a self-imposed Interaction Ban between Epeefleche and Danjel's contributions - temporarily - until the issue is resolved. I believe that both editors are mature enough to put aside their differences, once the issue has diminished. — MST☆R ^{(Chat Me!)} 05:31, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose block We dont do chill-out blocks, or block an account to reinforce a point. Before blocking is considered it would be worth trying other solutions, and the main suggestion I'd have is for Danjel to step back from the RFC/U about Epeefleche, and accept the outcome when it is done. (Personally, I agree with his basic premise, that removing easily sourced content is less than ideal behaviour, and doesn't really help the project - but in the end it is well within policy). In regard to his interactions with ClaudeReigns, there I think things might be being misrepresented a bit - ClaudeReigns didn't exactly act in the best possible manner in regard to All Hallows' School, either, but all of that seems like a done issue, and not worth pursing on either side. If there does need to be action, an interaction ban between Epeefleche and Danjel doesn't seem like an unworkable idea, and is certainly worth trying before we turn to something more draconian. - Bilby (talk) 07:00, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose block completely. In fact this is a totally unnecessary AN case. "Teacher, teacher, Johny hit me because I pulled his hair!" per this discussion over 15 hours ago. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 09:32, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
• Comment. I appreciate the support for an interaction ban on Danjel. Not only here, but expressed overwhelmingly at the RFC. The basis for banning him from interacting with me is that, as demonstrated, he has been hounding me. Even after being warned by a sysop not to hound me. As recently as this month. And he has hounded me even this week, during the RFC. There is of course zero basis for placing a ban on the person being hounded. We don't place restraining orders on people who are the victims of inappropriate behavior. But rather on the perpetrator. To do otherwise would be like placing a restraining order on a person stalked by Robert John Bardo. That would simply be bass-ackwards.

Finally, the interaction ban placed on Danjel should be permanent. Danjel's focus on engaging me in this manner has persisted for a full year. Without signs of abating (just the opposite, as seen by the AN/I and RFC just this month, followed by his hounding this very week). And it started on a completely unrelated issue. It's a big project. Let him engage others. There is no need for him to have the ability to come back at a future time to engage me, and what others have referred to as his IDHT approach does not support the view that he should engage me in the future. It's been one year. Enough is enough. --Epeefleche (talk) 13:15, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

In regards to the hounding, there is a current RFC/U on your behaviour, and you cry foul when the initiator of the RFC/U checks and notes that exactly the behaviour that has been called into question at the RFC/U is still continuing? From WP:WIKIHOUNDING: "The contribution logs can be used in the dispute resolution process to gather evidence to be presented in requests for comment, mediation, WP:ANI, and arbitration cases." Unless you're suggesting that you have, in fact, stopped the behaviour (in which case I'd quite happily shelve the RFC/U), and that this diff (fixed with an easily found source at diff) isn't actually a continuation of that behaviour (i.e., that easily sourced content is indiscriminately deleted without any attempt to source it, as mentioned in the background of the dispute, the first paragraph at the RFC/U, and then, because you continuously ignore that point, restated again later at diff, which you have continued to ignore in your later posts)... Wait. Hmm.

Let's face it: this is an attempt to avoid criticism by silencing an opponent rather than actually responding to the problem at hand. The feeling at WP:V has changed, and this is abundantly evident in discussion (Wikipedia_talk:V#Returning_to_a_possible_footnote_for_the_.22Burden_of_evidence.22_section and Wikipedia_talk:V#Bot). Yet, has your behaviour changed? Nope (diff, fixed with an easily found source at diff, although the article still needs a lot of work from someone who knows more about it than I). Seriously, how hard is google? ˜danjel [ talk | contribs ] 14:09, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Danjel — you've made the point in your prior post as to why an interaction ban is necessary, banning you from interacting with me. Even after all the above-indicated input to you at the AN/I, RFC, and by sysops on talkpages, you continue to hound me this very week. Follow me to a page that you never edited. Where I made an appropriate edit. Revert me. Again disparagingly label my appropriate edit "disruptive." And again leave a misleading edit summary. You, as you have done before, restore it without any refs—though this time you repair that violation of wp:v quickly. And when you discuss it above, you still have an IDHT attitude. A year of this is sufficient.

As to WP:HOUNDING, of course that is what you were doing. And your following me around the project -- still, one year after your perceived slight on a completely different issue -- to revert my appropriate edit, disparagingly and inappropriately term it "disruptive", and leave a misleading edit summary is of course not permitted by wp:HOUNDING. Which says:

"Wikihounding is the singling out of one or more editors, and joining discussions on multiple pages ... they may edit ... in order to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work. This is with an apparent aim of creating irritation, annoyance or distress to the other editor. Wikihounding usually involves following the target from place to place on Wikipedia.

Many users track other users' edits, although usually for collegial or administrative purposes. This should always be done carefully, and with good cause, to avoid raising the suspicion that an editor's contributions are being followed to cause them distress, or out of revenge for a perceived slight. Correct use of an editor's history includes (but is not limited to) fixing unambiguous errors or violations of Wikipedia policy, or correcting related problems on multiple articles.... The contribution logs can be used in the dispute resolution process to gather evidence to be presented in requests for comment, mediation, WP:ANI, and arbitration cases.

The important component of wikihounding is disruption to another user's own enjoyment of editing, or to the project generally, for no overriding reason. If "following another user around" is accompanied by tendentiousness, personal attacks, or other disruptive behavior, it may become a very serious matter and could result in blocks and other editing restrictions."

Frankly, if one reads the policy, your behavior is strikingly parallel to what the policy seeks to protect editors against. --Epeefleche (talk) 20:56, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose block — This appears to be an attempt to silence an editor on one side of a dispute, by the other side of the dispute. --Bob K31416 (talk) 14:46, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Formal interaction ban proposal

Alright, I've been mostly silent here at ANI, it's time I make my case. I originally became involved as an (uninvolved) admin closing an ANI thread about Epeefleche on 17 Dec 12 22:08. The close said clearly "No evidence of a policy violation...The burden is on Danjel to find a source for the content." However, I also added, because folks mentioned it in the thread, that "On the other hand, Google takes all but a few seconds and is worth the effort." That was a summary of the thread. On 14 Jan, Epeefleche started a thread by Danjel where he was threatened with a block for removing content. Danjel got involved making the same accusations he did at the ANI thread which close out of his favor. I explained that he misunderstands that ANI close if that's what he took from it. He then said that what he took from it is that I place the burden on him to Wikistalk Epeefleche edits (which he also 'rejects'). At the time, and still, I felt it was a serious enough concern to specifically address the Wikistalking. I also tried being sympathetic to his cause and I specifically explained what his misreading of WP:V was here. Finally I recommended he seek change at WP:V which he rejected. That he has managed to get a footnote since then doesn't mean we completely ignore what is actually written doesn't change the course of events up until now nor is a footnote of equal weight to the policy contents itself. After this, I joined in the RFC/U and consider myself involved from this point on out. I at no point have used my tools, the only admin action I have ever taken was closing the ANI thread before I was involved.

Here is my proposal: I don't like one sided bans. I think the disruptive behavior is on Danjel's part. In rejecting the consensus at ANI and opening an RFC/U, Danjel has ignored the community's consensus in favor of his own. He accuses others of being friends with Epeefleche and has been throwing around accusations of canvassing (he retracted the first one quickly but made the others afterwards). He has accused me of violating WP:INVOLVED here. He has redacted others comments at the ANI and ignored RFC/U instructions to make retaliatory threads after viewpoints he disagrees with. Danjel's actions have been completely without policy support, as has been explained to him. His actions have been irrational and frankly annoying. I think Danjel should be under a 6-month interaction ban with Epeefleche. He should no longer be allowed to comment on Epeefleche's enforcement of WP:V. But as I said, I dislike one-sided interaction bans. Let's not leave room for Epeefleche to antagonize him either. I propose that Epeefleche stay out of Danjel's primary topic area of high schools. That should limit the overlap in articles. Thoughts?--v/r - TP 15:04, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

• Very strong oppose as this would restrict Epeefleche from an area in which he has done nothing wrong or anything against policy. If person A commits a crime against person B, you don't toss them both in jail just because. That's madness. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 15:59, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Can you clarify, do you support the other direction?--v/r - TP 16:02, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
• I do think this would be ideal if both sides would agree to it. I can't agree with Epeefleche's actions, though they can be justified as being within policy as written (but not as intended IMO), and Danjel is just running way too hot (though I tend to share his views). I do think a one-sided ban would be too easily gamed. As a second choice, an interaction ban (no editing a page the other has edited other than AN, ANI, pump, etc. and there the would avoid the same discussions) would perhaps be another reasonable outcome that shouldn't really bother E. Hobit (talk) 19:13, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose the part about Epeefleche staying out of high schools, support the rest: Epeefleche shouldn't be banned from school-related articles just because Danjel kicks up drama. pbp 21:06, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

• Support in part; Very strong oppose in part. The facts are well presented by TParis. But of course, as Starblind points out, there is zero basis for restricting me (in an effort to be even-handed, between the person hounding and the one being hounded) from an area in which I have done nothing wrong or anything against policy. As Starblind says eloquently: "If person A commits a crime against person B, you don't toss them both in jail just because. That's madness."

  What I do support is the ban on Danjel.

  But it should at this point be permanent -- this is not a passing matter. It has gone on for a year. Danjel's activity at the RFC and on assorted talkpages this week shows that the obsessive disruption has only increased, and become an even-greater percentage of Danjel's focus as an editor. And -- and this point cannot be stressed enough -- Danjel's posts even in this string, following all the input that TParis and others have given him on talkpages and at AN/I and at RFC, as well as Danjel's wikihouding me this very week, all militate in favor of the ban being permanent.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:09, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Hounding again today. And now, again, today. Danjel followed me to a deletion I made of unsourced material that had been tagged both in April 2009 and February 2010. He followed me to an article he had never edited. And hours after my deletion, he restored something close to what was stated in a fraction of the deleted, tagged, unsourced material. While deleting some text himself, without acknowledging it. Though he added a ref, he labeled my removal of the uncited text "disruptive". He misleadingly wrote in his edit summary: "Undid revision 535205260 by Epeefleche (talk) - revert disruptive removal of text)". Just as he had in the above instances.

First, his edit summary was again misleading. His was not a complete undo of my revision. Not even close, if you look at the 2 edits. He added a ref, and touched only a small part of my edit. Second, it was again inappropriate for him to label my edit disruptive—in contravention of all the feedback given him. Finally, this is yet another example of him wikihounding me; to this very day. One year after this started. Ignoring all manner of sysop and community feedback. Danjel has today demonstrated once again why an interaction ban on him will be required.--Epeefleche (talk) 02:05, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

So you suggest that I should have added my ref, and left the rest of the text (which was problematic for other reasons) in place? Because it's either delete everything or keep everything, right? Rubbish. The key difference that is becoming apparent between you and I is that will consider the text, whether it's appropriate and whether it's source-able, and only keep that information that is. On the other hand, you just delete everything, whether it's of encyclopedic value or not, whether it's source-able or not. How can you possibly argue that it is better to remove all information than to keep the information that can and should be kept? THAT is why your edits are disruptive, and why your attempt to silence criticism and discourage (or prevent) repair of your edits is not in the best interests of wikipedia. ˜danjel [ talk | contribs ] 10:05, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose Removal as well as addition of material takes judgment, and discussing the possibility of sourcing leads to attempts to source it which may or may not be successful, and whose success of failure usually determines the outcome. Vigorous discussion at challenged material at afd or elsewhere is helpful, not harmful: otherwise it make it all too easy for someone with an agenda. (It is incidentally not true that most or all school articles are deleted at afd--almost none of them are, they are instead redirected; and I think it equally unconstructive to bring them for deletion in the first place as to try to keep them as articles. What we need is these two editors discussing the issues, not each other. Any ban should be addressed to that. It is usually better to discuss the issues at an afd than to directly challenge what some other person has said, and this would go a long way to reducing conflicts between them. The effect of preventing them from working on the same pages would be to give undue preference to the first mover, and in this case, consider the afd and content work, that will almost always be Eppefleche. It's no secret I usually oppose Epeefleche's views at afd , but I often oppose Danjel's also. I'm not sure I can devise anything better than to suggest that they never use each other's names or refer to each other directly or indirectly. DGG ( talk ) 21:27, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
  • DGG - A ban of any sort is not usually issued because of valid rational criticism. It is issued because of disruptive behaviors. Have I not adequately illustrated disruptive behaviors by Danjel? If so, he should be under an interaction ban to prevent more disruption. Let the RFC/U continue it's course, it's leaning Epeefleche's favor anyway. But do not allow the disruptive WP:IDHT behavior to continue.--v/r - TP 21:44, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose The clear partisan nature of this "proposal" is stunning. So, what, Epeefleche has the opportunity to edit every article on a school and the result is a de facto ban from editing the articles in which I have an interest. To say that this is disproportionate is an understatement. That, together with the fact Epeefleche is unwilling to restrict his own editing in any way from the articles that he knows that I edit make it pretty plain that this is just and only an attempt by TParis to silence opposition. WP:V has changed (and Epeefleche's behaviour has continued). There are several more editors posting to the RFC/U. Epeefleche's side has noticed that things aren't going their way so they're getting more shrill. So, we have te fact that several editors have opposed such a one sided ban even before the proposal was put, and the fact this thread originated with a degree of canvassing on ClaudeReigns' part (noting Epeefleche's known history of canvassing discussed above), and the outrageous attempt at harassment by piling on AN and ANI reports (that TParis continued below; by the way, you ARE WP:INVOLVED, the outrageous onesidedness of your interactions here and at the RFC/U is proof positive of that)... Well. There's nothing more to say. ˜danjel [ talk | contribs ] 01:25, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Please explain your rationale for pointing out that I am involved. Have I used my tools in any way? I was uninvolved when I close the ANI, you made me involved by your behavior which I've responded to against your favor. You say WP:V has changed. How? The relevant parts that I explained to you are still part of the prose and all you've achieved is a footnote. WP:V hasn't changed, it now includes a minor viewpoint is all.--v/r - TP 02:21, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Unless you're willing to show that a minor viewpoint (that is now starting to get represented at the RFC/U almost equitably with what you consider to be the "majority" viewpoint of WP:V) is "disruptive", such that their concerns should be completely ande prejudicially ignored (which is inarguably what Epeefleche is doing), then... ˜danjel [ talk | contribs ] 04:02, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Which "inarguably" Epeefleche may have been doing for the week you've had the change, but you've been explicitly doing for two months since the ANI. Do you have any self-awareness at all about your own behavior? The accusations you make are pathetic and have been committed by you 10x worse than Epeefleche and yet you hound him instead of yourself. It's disgusting how you've been behaving.--v/r - TP 13:40, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. Partly per DGG, but also from my familiarity with the attitudes of the concerned editors. Epeefleche is in no way innocent of disruptive editing, and although I collaborate well with Danjel on school articles, I have known him to get hot-headed on occasions. There is no such thing as a 'one-sided' interaction ban, it takes two to tango, and I suggest, per this discussion (for anyone who has still not bothered to follow the link) that they informally concede to stay out of each other's hair. If not, we'll end up loosing one valuable education editor and allowing another to continue to make unchallenged, possibly disruptive edits, and who needs to learn that people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:31, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Role account used by User:Danjel

I wasn't aware this was already being discussed, my apologies.--v/r - TP 15:43, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Since Danjel has brought up the matter that he has used his students as an argument against Epeefleche's actions, I feel it's relevant to point out that he is using a role account named User:MrJuddsStudents in violation of WP:ROLE. This account should be blocked.--v/r - TP 15:37, 28 January 2013 (UTC) That is currently being discussed at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Violation_of_WP:NOSHARE. - Bilby (talk) 15:40, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

The discussion has been closed.[113] --Bob K31416 (talk) 12:41, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

User:BotKung

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I've blocked the bot at BotKung (talk · contribs), see also comments at User talk:Jutiphan. Anyone can unblock it once it's fixed and we are confident this won't happen again. Dougweller (talk) 09:05, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm guessing you just used the standard block interface, but you should probably disable autoblock so the operator doesn't get caught in it. Legoktm (talk) 09:42, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

I've disabled autoblock. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 10:50, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I've never done this before and didn't even think of the consequences for the operator. I wish all blocks had to have a stop button! Dougweller (talk) 12:39, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Good one, cheers! Basket _Feudalist 13:49, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

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Weird and inaccurate information repeatedly inserted in reference on Elastic Therapeutic Taping.

Elastic therapeutic tape (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

I do not know who is inserting this information so I cannot notify them. I am notifying whoever is reading this that the product and medical technique known as Kinesiology taping or Elastic Therapeutic Taping was not invented by Komp and Mazza. The patents cited in the early edits were for a different product, sold currently as Kendall "Sher-Light" tape. This has been going on since the summer of 2012 and it is hard to continue to assume good faith, as at some point this person or discrete group of people had to have read the patent materials they were citing. At least I would hope so. Here is a link to the tape they developed. It is a different tape.https://www.medco-athletics.com/Supply/Product.asp?Leaf_Id=85910 — Preceding unsigned comment added by DemonTigerMom (talk • contribs) 19:39, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

The who in question seems to be User:67.168.206.47. However, I don't think this is the right place to discuss the matter. This probably should either be brought up at Talk:Elastic therapeutic tape or you could try communicating with the IP as this seems to be more of a content dispute. SassyLilNugget (talk) 20:16, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Regardless of this particular issue, the article needs more attention. In particular, it had a so-called 'history' section full of promotional claims. As none of these complied with the relevant policy, WP:MEDRS, I have deleted it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:20, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Well, that's weird ... the "history" deleted was appropriately sourced (they weren't medical statements, they were statements explaining how this particular unproven medical "stuff" came to be so popular), and several MEDRS tags on medical claims which did need to be sourced to secondary review sources were removed. Whatever. I'm (undeniably) a fan of MEDRS, but when it's misapplied, folks end up (wrongly) irritated at the guideline. That means either allowing medical claims from journal sources when secondary reviews should be used, as well as disallowing lay sources when they are appropriate. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:16, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

There were no sources 'explaining how this particular unproven medical "stuff" came to be so popular' - for that, we'd need a source that actually explained it, rather than sources that it was seen at the Olympics, was used by Lance Armstrong (I'll not comment on his reliability as a source), and was used at Wimbledon and the EUFA championships. Find a reliable source that says it is popular, rather than trying to prove it by synthesis. Incidentally, there seems to be some confusion in the article as to whether it refers to a particular brand of tape, or to 'elastic therapeutic tape' in general. AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:00, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

TWFanmily and User:Ellielouux

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Resolved

 – speedy deleted. Hopefully that ends it. --Hammersoft (talk) 22:56, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Today, new editor Ellielouux (talk · contribs) created the article "TWFanmily". This article is about the fanbase of the group The Wanted. I've been able to confirm the existence of this term to describe the fanbase [114], but the article as created by Ellielouux is a jumble of unreferenced, highly non-neutral text. The article was prod'ed by User:Scientific Alan 2, but Ellielouux unprod'ed it a minute later. I then turned it into a redirect to The Wanted (where the fanbase isn't even mentioned). I then posted to Ellielouux's talk page explaining what I did and why [115]. Ellielouux continues to revert changes to the article. Some other eyes, please. Ellielouux has been notified. Thank you, --Hammersoft (talk) 22:17, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

• User:MrX tagged it for speedy deletion. I turned it into a redirect again, and tried (hopefully not in vain) one last time to explain the situation to Ellielouux [116]. --Hammersoft (talk) 22:39, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
• And again Ellielouux reverts. I'm done. Another set of eyes please. Please? --Hammersoft (talk) 22:42, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
• It's been speedy deleted now, but it really should exist as a redirect. Oh well. --Hammersoft (talk) 22:56, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

• Boldly recreated as redirect. —Theopolisme (talk) 23:44, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

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A concern about the article about Walid Shoebat

Walid Shoebat (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

The article says that CNN accused Walid of being a fraud. It leaves the matter there without further remarks. However, Walid provided an extensive response to these accusations. Why were these not included? The author included the criticisms of a member of CAIR. However I have heard that at one individual was actively involved at some level with Hamas and they were convicted of a crime for this. Would someone please look into this matter further. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.36.154.115 (talk • contribs) 2013-01-28 22:33:29 (UTC)

• This is Wikipedia. Edit the article. Source your claim. Be prepared to discuss.--WaltCip (talk) 23:06, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
• Or, rather: Find a better and more trustworthy source of information than "I have heard.". Nail down the actual facts of the matter using people who check their facts, who have good reputations for accuracy, and who have properly published their information. Read Talk:Walid Shoebat#This might be one of the worst written articles on Wikipedia and the rest of the talk page. Then and only then turn to editing the article. Uncle G (talk) 23:53, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Pe de Chinelo

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Pe de Chinelo's name has appeared several times on AN and ANI. He was on the verge of being community banned, but was closed as no consensus. More recently, he returned as Althemise (talk · contribs). He has continued his disruptive modus operandi in film-related articles ([117], [118], [119]). This last round of sockpuppetry is the last straw. Can we have a block on him? Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 23:55, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

He's also taunting on blocking him via edit change notices. Behavior is disruptive with or without the SPI issue. --MASEM (t) 23:58, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Yep, and I've pretty much had enough of Pe de Chinelo's antics. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 23:59, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

He's violated the three-revert rule at The Hunger Games (film) and God of War (video game), and probably some other pages I've missed. This needs some administrator attention as soon as possible... Never mind, I'm just gonna AIV this. He's resorted to simple vandalism now. Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 00:08, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

He's blocked for two days. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 00:10, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

IMO, the block should be made indefinite. If he's really the sock of a blocked user, there's no good reason to keep him around. Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 00:32, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• I recommend extending the current block to indef. User clearly has no intentions of editing within the spirit and policies of building this encyclopedia. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:21, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
• Kudpung's recommendation is accepted given the last half dozen or so edits and summaries. Drmies (talk) 03:36, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, everyone! Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 04:56, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Richard Arthur Norton continuing violating topic bans despite previous blocks

Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk · contribs) has again violated topic ban of creating new articles here. Castle Meyenburg (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

This has been discussed many a time at ANI such as Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive759#User:Richard_Arthur_Norton_.281958-_.29_-_violation_of_topic_ban where he got a 60 hour block.

the ANI topic ban is here for indefinite ban of article creation. this continuing testing of boundaries and community consensus is worrying.

I seek administrator assistance to take appropriate action. thanks. LibStar (talk) 00:37, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• Yes, he violated his topic ban. It does not appear to be a copyvio (though it's unverified). But it was two weeks ago: a block would be punitive. A block may be right according to the letter, but I'm not feeling the spirit. I'm curious to see what other admins think the "appropriate action" is here. Drmies (talk) 02:55, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
  • A block. The policy isn't clear on this point (at least I didn't see anything about it), but I don't see why blocks for violating bans can't be imposed "late". Otherwise, we have the odd paradox that just because a violation escapes immediate scrutiny, the editor gets to violate the ban with impunity (see that? a form of punitive). In all fairness, if you look at Richard's block log, you'll see that an earlier block was shortened by User:Good Olfactory because the violations were "over two weeks ago". Obviously, my view is not necessarily shared by some. The only other remedy I can think of is to delete the article he created (kind of like reverting the edits of a banned user).--Bbb23 (talk) 03:15, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
    • I know, and I find it difficult to defend RAN. If someone blocks him he certainly had it coming (and I'm familiar with his block log--I think we go back a couple of years...). I like your fancy semantic footwork, Bbb, and I don't see how I can really oppose a block, but I don't like it. I wish RAN would come by and say "OK I'll abide by the ban", which is why I left the note I did. Drmies (talk) 03:41, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
• I saw Drmies' comment on Richard's talk page. However, the user has already been blocked twice previously for violation of the topic ban, and also has an impressive block log. This is either IDHT or CIR, but something needs to be done. I think a longer block this time would be appropriate, perhaps one month. This would not be punitive, but preventative from constantly breaching the terms of his ban . It would serve to demonstrate that he needs to understand policies and that the terms of his topic ban may not be flagrantly disregarded - in previous ANI some users advocated an indef site ban. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:13, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
  • True, Kudpung, true. Then again (spoke the devil's advocate), it's only one small article, not a hundred or thousand of them... Drmies (talk) 03:41, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

I had my own run-in with Norton when he inserted too much material in the CBS Records article about an unrelated CBS Records entity. I made that article a DAB page as a result. The talk page is a mile long thanks to what he did. Steelbeard1 (talk) 03:34, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• I don't see how that's relevant here. Let's not have all editors air their grievances and past disputes with RAN: there aren't enough blade servers in the world for that. Drmies (talk) 03:41, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
• I suggest a mentor situation may be best here. This editor seems to contribute a great deal and much of the content is perfectly acceptable and sourced. Perhaps if he had a 3-6 month period where a few others reviewed proposed moves/creations before they happened it would be a win/win for all? Insomesia (talk) 03:44, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Per Wikipedia:Blocking policy, "Blocks are used to prevent damage or disruption to Wikipedia, not to punish users", emphasizing in the Purposes and Goals section that "Blocks should not be used: ... as punishment against users" and that "Blocks should be used to: prevent imminent or continuing damage and disruption to Wikipedia; deter the continuation of present, disruptive behavior; and encourage a more productive, congenial editing style within community norms." The terrible incident of creating a stub happened two weeks ago. There is no imminent danger, damage or disruption, and nothing is happening at present. Any block here would be punitive and unjustified by the actual damage done to this encyclopedia. A statement of the sort "If someone blocks him he certainly had it coming" is advocating for a block as punishment, in clear violation of policy. Recalibrating the topic ban would be a far better idea. Alansohn (talk) 03:48, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• Alansohn, I fail to see why you'd cite me to say what you want to say (unless you missed the part where I didn't block him and obviously don't wish to block him). Rightly or wrongly, he might get blocked, and if he does he should have known it was a distinct possibility. Drmies (talk) 03:55, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

If Richard wants to change the topic ban then he should approach the community first not sneakily create an article and hope no one finds out. "There is no imminent danger, damage or disruption, and nothing is happening at present" yes for editors without such a ban, but topic bans were agreed and in place, this is like a good behavior bond and misbehaving during the period of it. LibStar (talk) 04:00, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

@Alansohn, I think you're missing the point here. Both Drmies and I could have summarily blocked Richard for disobeying a community consensus and it would not have been punitive; but we didn't. It would have been preventative - prevention against disobeying the rules. That the creations may not have been toxic is irrelevant. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 04:27, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

I get the point 100%. You could have summarily imposed a punitive block. You didn't because you recognize that it's wrong. Probably because there is absolutely no evidence of any imminent harm to Wikipedia, as the terrible incident in question occurred two weeks ago and didn't happen again. Even in Texas they don't send people to prison on a preventative basis, certainly for misdemeanors, as it's both illegal and accomplishes nothing other than to piss the person off and make him more likely to commit further crimes. It doesn't work any better on Wikipedia, even when admins confuse the meanings of "punitive" and "preventative". The proposal to work on mentoring RAN with the goal of weaning him off the block may actually achieve the result of improving the encyclopedia by rehabilitating an effective editor. Alansohn (talk) 05:01, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

"Even in Texas they don't send people to prison on a preventative basis, certainly for misdemeanors, as it's both illegal and accomplishes nothing other than to piss the person off and make him more likely to commit further crimes" Laws in Texas is not relevant here. As i said the infraction here is part of a larger pattern of non-compliance with ANI decisions and shows disrespect to the ANI process. LibStar (talk) 05:06, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

You've missed the point, Alansohn. He had a topic ban imposed. Violations of topic bans result in blocks. He violated his topic ban. Q.E.D. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 07:14, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

No, I get the point 100%. You believe he was bad two weeks ago and he should be punished. The problem is that punitive blocks are explicitly banned by Wikipedia:Blocking policy, which states that "Blocks are used to prevent damage or disruption to Wikipedia, not to punish users". What part of blocking policy is causing the confusion on your part and the part of so many admins? Alansohn (talk) 02:29, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

It's preventative because not blocking would encourage further ban evasion. Reyk _YO! 02:35, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Blocking policy explicitly states that "Blocks should not be used: ... as punishment against users; or where there is no current conduct issue of concern." and that "Blocks should be used to: prevent imminent or continuing damage and disruption to Wikipedia; deter the continuation of present, disruptive behavior; and encourage a more productive, congenial editing style within community norms." There is no "imminent or continuing damage". There is no "present, disruptive behavior". There is no evidence that a punitive block of this kind will "encourage a more productive, congenial editing style within community norms". I understand the vindictiveness behind this and the desire to stick it to the guy, but what's being proposed is punitive, plain and simple. From the same doublespeak that brought us We had to destroy the village to save it, comes the logic that we impose punitive blocks for preventative purposes. The mentoring proposal is infinitely more likely to work to improve the encyclopedia and at the same time to "encourage a more productive, congenial editing style within community norms", something that a punitive block will never produce. Alansohn (talk) 03:38, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

• I can see the merit in both sides of the argument. On one hand, blocking now after several weeks seems punitive, especially since the article in question is only a crappy unreferenced microstub and not a copyright violation. On the other hand, what power do bans have if people can ignore them with no consequences? Reyk _YO! 05:32, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
• If an editor breaks their topic ban, and there are no consequences, then what's the point of a topic ban? What's the point of anything? GiantSnowman 09:42, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
• There's no statute of limitations on enforcing topic bans. RAN was banned, in part, from creating pages due to his tendency for them to have been lifted from copyrighted sources. That's disruptive, and actively dangerous to Wikipedia, whether it was yesterday or three months ago (arguably worse the longer it's left, in fact). Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 11:23, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Proposal to change topic ban to mentoring situation

This editor seems to contribute a great deal and much of the content is perfectly acceptable and sourced. Perhaps if he had a 3-6 month period where a few others reviewed proposed moves/creations before they happened it would be a win/win for all? Insomesia (talk) 03:53, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• That's much easier solved by sending them through AfC, for instance. Drmies (talk) 03:55, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Let's see what the user thinks would work as well. I just think they have proven ability and interest and we should try to find a way to make things work for all. Insomesia (talk) 04:01, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

I would like to see his response and a willingness to admit a mistake here and move on. he has no expressed no desire to date to being mentored or a desire for the topic ban to be removed. obviously he is welcome to ask for this. LibStar (talk) 04:03, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• I will volunteer as a mentor if y'all want to go this route. Richard has really been run over by a truck for no good reason, he's a highly productive content-creator and a huge net positive to The Project. Having somebody stare over his shoulder a little and bitch about his preferred form of footnoting may or may not be useful. Richard is actually NOT a current copyvio problem, in my estimation, but "trust but verify" is probably the way most people want to play it with his material... Carrite (talk) 04:02, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

(ec) This presumes also that Richard is amenable to this and that he agrees to exchange frank emails with me off-list. Carrite (talk) 04:06, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

good idea, Carrite. LibStar (talk) 04:11, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

I'd certainly support that too - thanks, Carrite, for volunteering. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 04:36, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

WP:COPYVIO is not necessarily the issue but disregard for ANI decisions is. LibStar (talk) 04:05, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Disobeying authoritah should never be the reason, in itself, for any actions here - we should always be considering the underlying reasons behind any sanctions that might have been imposed, and trying to work out what would be the best overall result for Wikipedia when deciding how to deal with sanctions-busting. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 04:36, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

RAN's indicated over and over that he won't abide by any community decision that he doesn't want to. This isn't Cool Hand Luke. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 11:23, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

If he gets a mentor (and preferably someone who doesn't feel that being topic banned for creating many, many copyright violations is the same as "being run over by a truck for no good reason"), extra care should probably also be taken to inform him of the continuing problems with his file uploads. Note that, before his text-based CCI investigation, he already was the subject of a file-based CCI at Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/20100822. Looking at his recent file uploads, I notice two files recently uploaded that have been deleted for violating the fair use criteria, and others that are probably going the same way. He e.g. uploaded both File:James iredell ss.png and File:SS James Iredell.gif, both using an incorrect FU template ("To illustrate person at peak of their career", "Subject of image is deceased"? It's a ship!), but with the latter not being used on any pages. Then there is File:Cristmas eve, Isle of Pines, 1910 copy.jpg, which was made before 1923, but without any evidence that it was "published" before 1923. If it wasn't, then Wikipedia:Public domain#Unpublished works makes clear that this is a copyright violation. Oh, and note that in addition to the above mentioned page, he also created Mechanics Arts High School, a disambiguation between two things that don't have an article. Fram (talk) 09:33, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

"Many many" copyvios, hmmm, maybe, but only a very small (tiny?) percentage of his total output and mostly archaic rather than modern, if you will. I certainly wouldn't argue that Richard didn't bring much of this upon himself in the final analysis, but I think the gargantuan copyvio fishing expedition against his entire output has produced little more than a bucket of mackerel... It's time to normalize the situation with a very, very productive content-creator. I don't mind playing the role of copyright inspector, if that is deemed necessary. I'm sure others would be inspecting the inspection as well, reasonably guessing... Carrite (talk) 03:42, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

• Violate topic ban, get it lifted and replaced with handholding from an editor who disagrees with the ban anyway. Yeah. This isn't a remotely serious proposal. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 11:23, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
• I'm fine with the mentor idea. I do have some concerns about Carrite as that mentor (see bus statement), but I think it would work if RAN is willing and Carrite realizes this is going to be a lot of work and responsibility. For the record I firmly believe there were serious and significant copyright issues with RAN but a large chunk of identified "too close" cases were overreach. I'm unaware of any significant copyright issues from RAN since the those issues were first identified. Assuming that's correct, I think a mentor is a good way to go. Hobit (talk) 16:12, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
• A mentor would be fine after the block he should be receiving right now is over. I don't think that Carrite is the right editor to mentor him, for reasons made clear above. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:42, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose mentoring for the reasons made clear by BMK. We don't reward violations. And frankly I'd block him for the violation myself except I'm not in a mood to deal with the resulting admin abuse that would inevitably occur. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:25, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose mentoring and support block- the file copyright infringements convince me that RAN just doesn't get it. Reyk _YO! 23:29, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose. Why should someone who violated their topic ban get rewarded for it? RNealK (talk) 23:37, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

  To improve the encyclopedia - which is the reason we're all here in the first place -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 04:41, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. Block first for violation of the ban. If he wants a mentor after he returns from the block, that's certainly something that should be considered.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:27, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
  • I think the block has been dismissed as somewhat against policy. My interest is to keep someone around who contributes content even if they may be rough around the edges. Insomesia (talk) 01:36, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
    • Please name the policy that says "if you can evade scrutiny for violating your topic ban for long enough, it's required that you be allowed to get away with it". - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:59, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
      • I think you need to consider why rules and laws exist. They're there to organize our lives so we can live in relative safety. I don't see punishing this user two weeks after they technically broke a ban as actually helping anything. To me they seem like a generally productive person who may be open to amending their copyright issues with editing. It is in our best interest to find a path forward rather than meting out a pound of flesh. Insomesia (talk) 02:16, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
        • I think you need to consider what happens when we decide to ignore rules and laws. He had a topic ban imposed. He broke it. If we decide "oh, we can't enforce the topic ban, it would be punitive!" then we need to throw out every topic ban because they are, by that definition, "punitive". Even two weeks later blocking as a result of a topic ban violation is preventitive because it informs the user that the behavior that caused the block is unacceptable and cannot be repeated. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:58, 30 January 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose Block for violation of the ban (also in light of long history of ignoring previous directions regarding bans). If Richard wants mentoring and wants the topic ban removed, he should specifically agree to it here. LibStar (talk) 03:08, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Proposal to include file uploads in the topic ban

I propose that the topic ban against creating any kind of articles is changed, to disallow RAn the creation of any kind of articles and files. As said above, he was the subject of a CCI at Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations/20100822, so he should have been aware of the problems with copyright in files by now. But he clearly simply continues uploading files regardless of the copyright status. Looking at his file uploads for January 2013:

• File:Billy-Sunday-Blizzard-March-2-1914.jpg seems allright
• File:James iredell ss.png has a rather incorrect fair use template, but a case for fair use can be made
• File:SS James Iredell.gif is a fair use file that is not in use, and will be deleted
• File:Sammee Tong.jpg seems to be allright
• File:Dalarö Fortress 2010 by Yvonne Öhrbom.jpg was not compliant at all, but this has been corrected after Wikipedia:Files for deletion/2013 January 15#File:Dalarö Fortress 2010 by Yvonne Öhrbom.jpg
• File:Cristmas eve, Isle of Pines, 1910 copy.jpg is a copyright violation
• File:Olson-Peder 1896 death.png is allright, but why theis file contains a whole artice on a non notable person is unclear. We are not a genealogical website
• File:Mabelle Gilman Corey.jpg seems allright
• File:Aviator Frank Goldsborough.gif seems allright
• File:Javier Ángel Figueroa.jpg seems allright
• File:Freudenberg-Louis Kohlman-Ralph MatavanBeach 1915 circa.png is a copyright violation

So out of 11 file uploads, three will be deleted for copyright problems (two straight copyvios, one usused fair use image), one has an incorrect fair use template, and one was deletable because RAN gave it a CC-by-SA template, but he wasn't the author of the file, and it needed a FFD to rectify this. I don't think this percentage of problematic file uploads is acceptable for an editor who should be more aware than most people here of what our copyright rules are. Fram (talk) 08:32, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

• support if anything this is more problematic than the original text copy violations, and shows no sign of abating despite countless warnings. LibStar (talk) 09:57, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

What's up?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Am I the only one who can't get scripts and collapsible thingys to work or is it a site-wide problem? AutomaticStrikeout (T • C) 04:46, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

I haven't seen any of that, but the best venue to get a problem like that fixed is at WP:VPT. They'll probably suggest bypassing your cache or something along those lines. Ryan Vesey 04:50, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

It worked! Thanks. AutomaticStrikeout (T • C) 04:53, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Undo some moves please

A month or so ago, I meant to indefinitely block the already temporarily blocked Bigh Whigh (talk · contribs) for socking, but neglected to do so. I fixed the block, but he moved a couple of pages before I was aware of him. I don't know how to undo page moves. Thx! --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 05:16, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

I only see one move, of the article on partial-birth abortion, and there are no deleted contributions. Did you meant some other username? And why can't you undo the moves? It looks like they'll be simple Special:MovePage/Late termination of pregnancy tasks; is there something I'm missing? I'd rather not move anything myself until I know better what's going on. Nyttend (talk) 05:25, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

To undo a page move, you just move it again back to the original - if there's a redirect it'll warn you and as an admin you can force the move over the redirect. But one thing to be wary of is that if you tell it to move the talk page too and there's a redirect for that, it can fail and leave you with the page moved and its talk not. When there have been redirects, I've generally moved the page and the talk separately. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 05:36, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 06:41, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Hari7478 and Mayasutra, round 2

Moved from WP:AIV

Mayasutra (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has removed a large section along with the references - diff[120]. His edit summary was "deleted disputed section/see ANI pg". But ANI never rules on content. The admins in ANI didn't refute the contents in this case at all. They didn't even discuss it. That being the case, this user(Mayasutra) removed a well sourced section without consensus/discussion giving a false edit summary. Even another admin questioned Mayasutra's vandalising deletion here - [121]. User:Mayasutra is still defiant. The page(Vadakalai) has a General Sanctions template, according to which admins have right to impose discretionary sanctions for such vandalising deletions with false summaries. Also, Mayasutra has been very abusive in talk page discussions - see below for his abusive comments, planned edit wars, and flaming edit summaries:
[122] - Mayasutra's comments - "As for the genetic/anthropological/blah blah assumptions you make; each of them including misquoting sources to support your half-baked assumptions of racism......for Dispute Mediation from which you chickened out...."
[123] - Mayasutra's comments - "So what am going to do is delete all the trash you put into the article. If this goes into an edit war, there is nothing you can do except agree....Good luck."--- This comment proves beyond doubt that Mayasutra planned an edit war.
[124] - Mayasutra's edit summary - "Expecting editwar, admin intervention..."-- Mayasutra indicated in the edit comment that he knew he was edit warring.
Please consider all these factors - Deletion of a well sourced content without dicussion, by giving a false edit summary(that deletion was even questioned by another admin as mentioned above), abusive behavior in talk pages, orchestrating edit wars to get things done. Mayasutra portrayed such behavior in pages having "Discretionary Sanctions"(template can be seen under the talk pages of Iyengar & Vadakalai). Thank you. Hari7478 (talk) 11:07, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

I have already responded to the allegation above here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents&diff=prev&oldid=534843722
Additionally, EdJohnston has already closed the edit war chapter by warning both of us (Hari7478 however, deleted that from his talk page). So now the pending issue is misquoting sources. --= No ||| Illusion = (talk) 18:19, 29 January 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

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I haven't looked into this whole complaint, but AIV is only for simple/obvious cases, which at a glance this appears to most definitely not be. I'm moving it here in the hopes that we can settle things between the two of them this time. They're both doing a rather bad job communicating, but I see them both as potentially constructive contributors, so why don't we see what we can do to sort this out before one or both of them gets blocked. — PinkAmpers&^{(Je vous invite à me parler)} 12:45, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

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PinkAmpersand, i request you to read the whole complaint please. Sadly, it appears most admin are not willing to read thru the whole issue. The issue here is misquoting sources. Hari478 has passed off his own ethnicity / race theories by misquoting sources. And he needs to explain them and also explain why he is doing it. --= No ||| Illusion = (talk) 18:09, 29 January 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

At this point, this looks like more than just a content dispute, so it does appear to be relevant here. Nyttend (talk) 15:41, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, this IS a content dispute. However, it pertains to falsifying and misquoting sources. Hari7478 is playing the silent tactic again. Just as he did with the mediation process. That is, he is choosing not to respond to the ANI notice on misquoting sources. To top it, he has reported me for vandalism. Which means, he is using wiki admin to protect his position of misquoting sources. I expect wiki admin to intervene and ask Hari7478 to respond to each of the 4 issues raised (on misquoting sources). Until he does so, his content cannot be allowed on the Iyengar page and on the Vadakalai page. I hope admin Qwyrxian (who so far appears to be protecting Hari7478 in this regard) will also accept that unless Hari7478 explains why he is misquoting sources, his (disputed) content should not be allowed on wiki pages. Thanks. --= No ||| Illusion = (talk) 18:01, 29 January 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

In event that Hari7478 does not respond (and chooses to stay silent on misquoting sources), admin must make a decision and disallow all his disputed content from all wiki articles Iyengar, Vadakalai and Sri Sampradaya. I would like to know, how much time is admin going to give Hari7478 to respond. Thanks. --= No ||| Illusion = (talk) 18:19, 29 January 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

Mayasutra, you posting a comment above Nyttend's message makes the whole discussion look like something else. It would be appreciated if you could post your comments at the bottom of the discussion, and not above an already posted comment(for clarity). This was exactly what you were doing before. After i posted my comment in the previous ANI discussion, you were simultaneously posting reams of text both above and below my comment. Hari7478 (talk) 21:00, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Am responding to each comment by replying below it, not above it. Now, since you are here, reply to the report on misquoting sources. --= No ||| Illusion = (talk) 21:25, 29 January 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

When caste disputes are brought to ANI, we sometimes have the benefit of User:Sitush's comments because he had knowledge of the relative quality of the sources and he is familiar with the usual patterns of caste dispute. In Sitush's temporary absence, I suggest we just enforce the usual edit warring regulations and let the participants know that they really have to seek consensus for their views in content forums (such as the article talk page, or WP:Reliable sources/Noticeboard). Although User:Mayasutra may appear as the more argumentative of the two, and he has a confusing signature, in my opinion he has a better understanding of WP policy regarding sources. Hari7478 has argued for using the ethnographic work of Edgar Thurston (1855-1935) as a reference about caste, while anyone who peruses Thurston's article will notice things like: "Thurston believed that intelligence was inversely proportional to the breadth of the nose...." If you scan through Hari7478's arguments at Talk:Iyengar you will probably have doubts about his understanding of Wikipedia's sourcing policy, in particular whether he knows what a peer-reviewed source is. Both Hari7478 and Mayasutra should be aware that they can be blocked for edit warring without further notice if they don't find consensus for their changes before editing Iyengar, Vadakalai or Sri Sampradaya again. EdJohnston (talk) 21:59, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

No. Re-posting your massive complaint is not going to help anything. As I say in my comment below, if you have a complaint, please make it below, politely and succinctly (emphasis on the succinctly), and the admins will hear you out. But massive walls of text just make users angry. And once an issue falls off of ANI, you can be pretty sure that replicating the original complaint won't work any differently the second time around. As is often said here, the archival bot is the ultimate arbiter. — PinkAmpers&(Je vous invite à me parler) 22:10, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Reporting Hari7478 Since Hari7478 did not respond to the earlier report on misquoting sources, am reporting it again. Sincerely request admin to please take time to read thru the whole complaint; and please take action (which is pending since too long). The origin of this dispute is casteism. Since Thenkalais absorbed Non-Brahmins into their fold; thus, some Vadakalais seek separatism from them, in terms of ethnic / racial / caste purity. The casteist stand is derived from religious notions of caste purity. However, genetic studies are being falsified and misquoted by Hari7478 to portray an ethnic-genetic difference between the two sects. To that end, general sources are also being misquoted. Herewith are the points of dispute: Issue # 1 1) Misleading subheading titled Ethnicity, genetics and origin: This heading has been used to differentiate between Vadakalai and Thenkalai by ethnicity and origin. I changed this heading to "Subsects" but this is unacceptable to Hari7478. He's been changing it back to “Ethinicity, Genetics and Origin”. Hari7478's deliberate attempt to portray Vadagalais of Indo-Aryan ethnicity and Thengalais of Non-Indo-Aryan Tamil ethnicity, by demarcating and misquoting genetic studies and general sources to portray an ethnic / racial differentiation cannot be allowed. Issue # 2 2) The line under Ethnicity, genetics and origin states: "These sects may be of distinctly different in origin.[5][6]" The sources [5] and [6] say no such thing nor support ethnic, genetic, and origin differences between Vadagalais and Thengalais. On the contrary source [5](The changing Indian civilization, by Oroon K. Ghosh, 1976) support mergers of deshaja (indigenous) priests into the Indo-Aryan ritual fold, before the ascendency of Shankara, Ramanuja and Madhawa. I am reproducing the entire page 283 of source [5]: "Formerly, the priests of these regions were suspect. Thus, Hemadri in his Chatur-varga-chintamani quotes from the Saura Purana: "The Brahmans of Anga, Vanga, Kalinga, Saurashtra, Gurjara, Abhira, Konkana, Dravida, Dakshinapatha, Avanti and Magadha should be avoided". Now these deshaja (indigenous) and foreign-origin priests were absorbed in the North- Indian priestly tradition in the Age of Syncretism. This is particularly true in the South, where four stages may be postulated - (i) Matrilineal Indusian priests over the whole of South, coming from South Iran and Baluchistan with the Iron Age groups, as brought out in Chapter 9. They were Dravidian-speaking and and echoes of their universality and supremacy in the South still survive, in spite of many incrustations, in the temple of the Mother Goddess Meenakshi at Madurai, where she is clearly superior to and more important than her consort, Sundareswarar. (ii) In the post-Maurya Time of Troubles many Brahmans must have fled from the North West and infiltrated to the South, loaded with gifts and favours by rulers like the greatly "Sanskritising" Pallavas of Kanchi (300-880 AD). These Vadamars or Vadagalai, ie "Northerners" as distinct from the Tongalai or "Southerners"" must have introduced Sanskrit and Patriarchal Aryo-Indian rites. (iii) In the Age of Syncretism all the deshaja or "native South Indian deities like Murugan, Subrahmanya, Ayappan, Sastha, the great Meenakshi herself, and others were grouped, and merged with Shiva, Shakti and Vishnu, and their priests admitted into the Aryo-Indian fold. (iv) Finally, the South Indian brahmans became ascendant with Shankara, Ramanuja and Madhava on the intellectual side ; and with the creators of the Bhakti religion, the Shaiva Nayanars and the Vaishnava Alwars on the emotional side.” Kindly note Oroon Ghosh “postulated” the above 4 points. However, Hari7478 makes no mention of that; or on the elevation of priests into the Indo-Aryan fold. He uses only point (ii) to mention that Vadakalai are an Indo-Aryan people from Northern India. Fact is, the Vadakalai community was founded by Vedanta Desika and did not exist in the said period of Pallavas (300-880 AD). On what basis can Hari7478 construe that Oroon Ghosh’s postulation refers to the current Vadakalai community? On what basis can he use this source as a reference to claim Vadakalai and Thenkalai sects differ in origin? This issue requires one to take into account the term "vada" which in Tamil means "north". The Tamils were not so bad in geography (after all they recorded visits of foreign visitors from other countries). If someone came from northern India, they would have used the correct name of the northern indian kingdom from where they came. The current day Andhra which lies to the "North of the Tamil Country", was known as Vadadesa or Vadugavalli in the past. Unless explicitly stated by a source, one cannot take "vada" to mean "Northern India", or claim to be aryans or indo-aryan people "who once migrated from North India". Additionally, the Journal of Asiatic Society, the Indo-British Historical Society, Robert Lester and several authors refer to Vadakalai and Thenkalai as northern and southern ‘Schools’; and not to ethnicity / race / origin. Source [6] provided is Pg.132 Human Heredity, Karger., 1976. Google Books. 22 November 2006. Retrieved 15 November 2011. It is a paper titled "Inbreeding among Some Brahman Populations of Tamil Nadu", by S.Srinivasan and D.P.Mukherjee. Contrary to Hari7478's claim, the quoted page 132 does not support that statement that "the two sects are distinctly different in origin". Source [6] does not even mention Thenkalais. So how can he use this source to make such a statement? Am reproducing the stated page 132 as follows: "The Vadama and the Vadagalai who belong to different sects, but have northern origin in common as indicated by the Tamil prefix Vada, and show the closest agreement in the frequencies of different types of earlobe and hand clasping among the Tamil Brahmans [Srinivasan and Mukherjee, 1974], are characterized by lower incidence of first cousin marriages and higher incidence of marriages between more distant relatives. There is a level of agreement in the levels of inbreeding among Tamil Brahmans, Ayyars and Ayyangars from different states (table II). But a regional influence is also indicated by the higher value of F in the Vadagalai sample from Andhra Pradesh and the lower value of F in the Ayyar sample from Kerala. The matrilineal tradition restricting maternal uncle-niece marriages in Kerala might, of course, have influenced the local Tamil Brahmans." Issue # 3 A statement under Vadakalai Iyengar: "The Vadakalai Iyengars are believed to be an Indo-Aryan people who once migrated from North India.[8][9]" Source [8] is The changing Indian civilization: a perspective on India. Minerva Associates. 1976. pp. 283, 160. This is exactly the same as source [5], which is The changing Indian civilization: a perspective on India, by Oroon K. Ghosh, 1976. I have reproduced the entire page 283 of this source above. I request Hari7478 to quote exact sentences from pages 283, 160 or any other part of the book where it says Vadakalais are Indo-Aryan people who once migrated from North India. Source [9] is given as "Pg.72, Aryans in South India – by P. P. Nārāyanan Nambūdiri, Inter-India Publications." The author PP Nambudiri posits all Brahmins to be Aryan in his book. So how can Hari7478 use this source to claim only Vadakalai Iyengars are an Indo-aryan people who once migrated from North India? Additionally, the stated source does not say Vadakalais “once migrated from North India”. Please ask Hari7478 to provide the correct page number where the book says so. Am reproducing the entire p.72 Nambudiri’s book below: "A detailed classification of the Tamil brahmins under the major heads smarta and vaishnava with many sub-sections under each major head is given below :- 1. Vadama 2. Kesigal 3. Brahacharanam 4. Vathima Madhama 5. Ashtasahasram 6. Dikshitar. Smarta 7. Sholiar 8. Mukkani 9. Kaniyalar 10. Sanketi 11. Prathamasaki 12. Gurukkal. Vaisnava A. Vadagali (Northerners) 1. Sri Vaisnava 2. Vaikhanasa 3. Pancaratra 4.Hebbar B. Thengalai (Southerners) 1. Sri Vaisnava 4. Hebbar 2. Vaikhanasa 5. Mandya 3. Pancaratra The Smartas: They are divided into 12 sub-divisions. The Vadamas claim to be superior to all other classes of Tamil speaking brahmins. The term Vadama signifies northerners. They are again divided into five sub-divisions, namely Coladesa, Vadadisa, Savayar, Inji and Thummagunta Dravida. All the above divisions and sub-divisions are endogamous except the Tambala brahmins who correspond to Gurukkal among the Tamil brahmins. The Vaidikis are superior to the Niyogis." Issue # 4 A statement under Vadakalai Iyengar: "In a genetic study in Andhra Pradesh all individuals examined among Vadakalai Iyengars showed a high similarity of rhesus(d) gene frequency with the people of Faislabad in the Punjab province of Pakistan.[10] All the individuals examined among Vadakalai Iyengars showed Rhesus(D) positive with a high frequency of the D allele while the other castes from Andhra showed a low frequency of the D allele.[10]" The source [10] quoted is a paper by Hameed et al. The said paper refers to an another paper (By Reddy et al) which had previously compared samples of 4 communities and found Rh(D) factor higher in the Vadakalai sample. Since Rh(D) in that study was found higher in people of Faisalabad Pakistan, the authors Hameed et al remarked that the similarity in frequency of Rhesus(D) genes “ can be attributed to the common history of these populations”. Fact is, the said paper does not even refer to Thengalais. I had changed the sentence to correctly indicate what the paper mentions as follows: “A study on Rh(D) occurrence in 1980, amongst samples from members of Mala, Yerukula, Kapu and Vadagalai Iyengar in Andhra revealed that the incidence of Rhesus(D) was higher in Vadagalai Iyengars than the other 3 groups; with a similar high frequency of Rhesus(D) genes also found in people of Faislabad in the Punjab province of Pakistan.” This, however, is unacceptable to Hari7478 who reverts the change. He insists on the talk page that there is an ethnic difference between Vadakalai and Thenkalai. Hari7478 has even used the ref name for the paper by Hameed, et al as ["ref name="Vadakalai Genetics"]. To him, the Vadakalai are Indo-Aryan people who migrated from Northern India. Let him get an appropriate source to substantiate it; instead of falsifying and misquoting papers. This paper was formerly used by Hari7478 to mention that "the above mentioned genetic similarity between the vadakalai and the punjabis of pakistan portrays the Indo-aryan origin of the Vadakalai iyengars". However, now the direct mention has been omitted out, but the paper has been used by Hari7478 to cater to his claims of Vadagalai - Thengalai differentiation. Previously, on my objection, Hari7478 deleted the source “Man in India: Volume 58, by Sarat Chandra Roy (Rai Bahadur)” on cleft chin studies, which he had falsified to project a vadakalai - thenkalai differentiation. However, he has been reverting changes with the Hameed, et al paper. He is keen to portray a ‘genetic difference’ between Vadakalais and Thenkalais; and that Vadakalais are “indo-aryan people who once migrated from northern India”. I object to Hari7478's constant falsification of sources to pass of his claims of “ethnicity, genetics and origin”. His disputed content as detailed above must be removed from the Iyengar, Vadakalai and Sri Sampradaya pages. Either he must agree for mediation to stop his misquoting of sources, or admin must intervene on this ANI page and ask him to provide correct sources for his statements. In event he does not respond to this report, he must be blocked from vandalizing the said pages. --= No ||| Illusion = (talk) 21:51, 29 January 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra As I explained on your talk page, though, Mayasutra, part of the problem is your approach. After you removed a large chunk of info from Vadakalai, and Hari reverted you, then, per WP:BRD (our normal pattern for major edits), you should have gone to the talk page and laid out the concerns you had above. Instead, those claims ended up here on ANI, where, in fact, Hari shouldn't respond to them, since they're content matters. Both of you need to discuss more and revert less. Now, there may well be a problem of "falsifying sources", but we need to establish that first, somewhere (I'm assuming Hari will say that the info is in the source, or some way justify the text). Unless it's already certain that Hari was falsifying text, ANI really isn't a good place to solve the problem. So, in other words, both of you should get the hell off this board and get onto an article talk page and figure this stuff out; starting using content dispute resolution (dispute noticeboards, RfCs, etc.) and stop just trying to win by getting the other blocked. Qwyrxian (talk) 22:17, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• Okay, both of you stop. Please remember that this noticeboard has the authority to place editing restrictions, and often when we find two users importing their content disputes to noticeboards, we just get annoyed and place some sort of interaction ban or topic ban on them. Did that get your attention? Good. Now here's what I strongly suggest you both do:

• Stop accusing each other of things. There's bad blood on both sides of this, so we're not going to listen to one of you instead of the other. Pause and take some deep breaths, okay? Hari, the edit-warring matter's already been dealt with, and Mayasutra, there's no rule that you have to respond to ANI threads right away.
• Stop arguing with people who are trying to help you. Especially with admins, since, let's be honest, it's never really a good idea to taunt someone who can block you in a matter of seconds, especially if you're already engaged in borderline personal attacks and tendentious editing all under the purview of an ArbCom decision.
• The best thing I could advise is that you just stop fighting over what's in the past. Hari7478, you already made your case at AN3 (or was it here? I forget), so there's no need to make it again a few days later at AIV. We're supposed to all be here to build an encyclopedia, so I hope you can understand why editors get angry about anything that strikes them as a user pursuing a vendetta. So, anyways, if you two really want to make your content case, go ahead. ANI might not be the perfect noticeboard for it, but Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy, and this has been to enough noticeboards already. So, Mayasutra, if you really want to pursue your allegations of misquotation (which I advise against), please politely and succinctly explain them in a subsection here, and we can settle them once and for all. And then, Hari, you can politely and succinctly explain why these allegations are false. And that will be that; this will be the final decision on that matter. Future attempts to rehash it will almost definitely not be received well, so, whichever of you "loses" this dispute, you should just cut your losses and move on before people get pissed and start talking bans. Okay?

• — PinkAmpers&^{(Je vous invite à me parler)} 22:03, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

PinkAmpers, Very sorry about re-posting. Did so because Hari7478 was typically evading the issue and not responding. Also, because Boing felt requests will peter out if no admin feels sufficiently moved to do anything. I sincerely request the admin to please-please read thru the complaint fully and ask Hari7478 to respond specifically to the 4 issues raised and why should such content be allowed on wiki since they are his own fabrications / conclusions / falsifications by misquoting sources. I have no objection to using Edgar Thurston as a source. However, Hari7478 must provide which sentences from Thurston's source he intends to use and in what manner. Hari7478 also must explain why is he deleting my references from established academic sources, such as, Journal of Royal Asiatic Society and Robert Lester. I challenge him to prove his contentions on Hameed et al 's paper which he calls "Vadagalai genetics" to portray his so-called Indo-Aryan and northern India origin to Vadakalai brahmins. Hari7478 cites a different ethnic origin for Vadakalai brahmins separated from Thengalai brahmins -- I challenge him to prove references he provided actually say that. Please note: Hari7478 says a lot without addressing the point directly. Which IMO is very meandering. Thanks. --= No ||| Illusion = (talk) 00:08, 30 January 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

Ed Johnston, i know that i shouldn't have used the word peer during that discussion(that was a very silly mistake). I was in a hurry. It may seem as though i was unaware at first. But let me explain because that's definitely not the case(like what you think). When Sitush started the discussion on Thurston(namely "Edgar Thurston as a source"), it was about whether we keep Thurston's work or remove it from the Iyengar article, and it had nothing much to do with Mayasutra's claims at first. But the source has been cited in many other wiki pages on castes. Due to this, i was just explaining as to why the source can be kept. Though i tried hard for a secondary source, i couldn't find any recording of that project's information elsewhere. So i just helped them understand that the project(codification of various castes and tribes in India) was hailed by the article(one line praise). Also, a '92 article(didn't post a link to that) by the same Daily analyzed the chapters in depth, however not too deep into the finer contents. So i was about to suggest that "if there are still problems with the src(even i may disapprove of the project's howlers in some parts), we take it to WT:INB so that the decision on Castes & Tribes as a src would be applicable to all those wiki pages on Indian castes that have made use of Thurston's work". There are way too many of them cited in other wiki pages. Their removal in the Iyengar page may cause some disagreement among other editors(upon notification), and even if not, some vandal users in other pages may cite this(removal in the Iyengar pg) as a reason to make similar removals in the other pages too, especially when some other editors are supporting it. So, it was about either keeping it or removing it(but apparently that has a lot do with many other wiki pages too & not just the Iyengar page). But Mayasutra posted replies under that discussion with comments regardingthe Vadakalai vs Thenkalai issue, as you can see, because of which the main issue(raised by Sitush) was forgotten, due to a long message that followed. Realizing Sitush's extensive knowledge on caste related sources & reliablity of sources, I've always abided by Sitush's decisions, but sometimes i've given a few suggestions too and Sitush has agreed about keeping some of them(on two occassions). Even Sitush has edited my revision & that specific section, but has mostly been keeping my contributions. He analyzed the whole page. Even another admin'(someone whom i invited for an assessment) made some minor changes to the disputed section, but chose to keep my contributions after a few clarifications from my part(some time ago). Pinkampersand - this message is just a clarification to Ed Jonhston's message. This is not a complaint. Its just a clarification to Ed Jonhston's concerns. Thank you. Hari7478 (talk) 23:27, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Hari7478, Main issue is not Sitush or Thurston. Already explained on Iyengar talk page i have no prob with Thurston as a source. Stop meandering around. Address specifically the 4 issues raised - -explain why you have misquoted those sources. --= No ||| Illusion = (talk) 00:13, 30 January 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

PinkAmpers and Ed Johnston, After reporting me for Page protection and Vandalism, now Hari7478 has reported me for being a Sockpuppet of Fastnfurious -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Mayasutra IMO, Hari7478 is merely evading the main issue and is misusing wiki machinery. Is there someway to get Hari7478 to respond here wrt to the 4 issues raised instead of meandering about? Thanks. --= No ||| Illusion = (talk) 05:04, 30 January 2013 (UTC)Mayasutra

European Alliance for Freedom

This article has been subjected to: polemic edits, edits removing sourced content, a series of single purpose and/or conflict of interest editing accounts, and refusal to communicate on the part of the the editor(s?) attempting these changes. I could ask for page protection, but it would fix nothing. This has been going on for two weeks now. See article's history. Some help, please. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:48, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• Also be aware that the current version of the article is a copyright violation of this primary source. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:52, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• Reverted, warned a few users, and submitted a SPI case see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Eurallfree Werieth (talk) 16:02, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Wee Curry Monster removing content from article with no consensus.

For a while now there has been a discussion over at Falkland_Islands_sovereignty_dispute whether to remove a section ("International position"). Following an inconclusive and still ongoing RfC the most fervent editor in favor of its removal (Wee Curry Monster) went ahead and unilaterally deleted the whole section[125]. I reverted him [126] noting he did not have consensus to do such a thing and he reverted me [127]. Once again I reverted him asking him to please abstain from incurring in such disruptive behaviour[128], he immediately reverted again[129]. I will not revert him a 3rd time as I see this as merely a ploy from Wee to get me blocked. I ask any editor/admin here to please stop by the talk page and see that the discussion was ongoing between a number of editors on how to improve the section (Talk:Falkland_Islands_sovereignty_dispute#International_position_-_Compromise) when Wee decided to completely delete it without waiting for the response from any other editor[130]. By the time I answered his threat to remove the section (less than five minutes later) he had already removed it[131]. There is even a report open at Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#Establishing_Weight_and_Due requesting comments on this issue. Wee opened it himself but did not care to wait for comments from other editors.

This is not acceptable behaviour. I took Wee to ANI not a couple of weeks ago after he refused to stop moving my comments around in the talk page and now this. I note that if it was a new editor behaving like this, it would have been blocked without a doubt by now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gaba p (talk • contribs) 16:44, 29 January 2013‎

That does indeed seem to be in breach of WP:BRD and suggests a WP:Battleground and WP:OWN mentality. Not to mention that it seems to violate WP:3RR as well. --Saddhiyama (talk) 16:55, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

The outcome of the RFC is clearly in favour of removing the section. The subsequent discussion is largely User:Gaba p spamming the discussion with tendentious comment to frustrate the consensus that clearly emerged. Did you even look at the talk page discussion? Its full of tendentious argument by User:Gaba p.

The whole purpose of posting at WP:NPOVN was attempting to follow WP:DRN. There won't be any comment at WP:NPOVN as User:Gaba p employs a well worn tactic of spamming any discussion with reams of tendentious comment.

WP:BATTLEGROUND, hell yes, User:Gaba p likely a sock puppet of User:Alex79818 is turning every discussion into a battleground in exactly the same way User:Alex79818 did. There is a WP:DUCK quacking with a megaphone here.

As usual he gets in first making a load of unsubstantiated allegations, selectively quoting diffs that don't support the claim. Really this is just another example of abusing process in an attempt to chill the dicussion and frustrate progress. The threats of instigating threads at ANI are often using to intimidate, his entire conduct displays a WP:BATTLEGROUND mentality.

Please can I have an interaction ban, I've had enough of this guy WP:HOUNDing me. Wee Curry Monster talk 17:35, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Given the obviously contentious nature of this, why wouldn't you ask for an uninvolved admin to close the RFC and avoid some of the drama?Ravensfire (talk) 17:39, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Good idea, [132] I tried, though I think I mistook User:Irondome for User:Ironholds. (No comment on User:Irondome is meant by that.) Even though both are clearly uninvolved I was accused of canvassing for doing so by both Langus-TxT [133] and Gaba p [134]. I am accused of misconduct at every turn by those two and really its just WP:HOUND. Wee Curry Monster talk 18:18, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Leaving a request at WP:AN/RFC might have been a better option. It's a lot harder to be accused of picking someone when you can't. Ravensfire (talk) 18:22, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

I really do appreciate that, as although an experienced editor I was utterly unaware that noticeboard existed. I'm not the only editor who has commented that a consensus to move forward existed. User:Irondome also commented at Talk:Falkland Islands sovereignty dispute that we'd agreed a way forward that involved removing this section and working up a concise summary in talk based on new material he provided. See Talk:Falkland Islands sovereignty dispute#What is going on?, I can thoroughly understand his frustration, I do wonder if the drama is purely for well drama's sake. It seems to me and others Gaba p is deliberately obnoxious to stoke up tension. Wee Curry Monster talk 19:37, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Unbelievable how Wee will just bend the truth at ANI with no worries whatsoever. Please go check Irondome's comment on Talk:Falkland Islands sovereignty dispute#What is going on? and tell me if you find any mention of that editor agreeing with the complete removal of the section which is what he did. Just an unbelievable attempt at missrepresenting the position of another editor. Gaba p (talk) 20:36, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Worth mentioning that despite being told not to accuse people of lying by multiple admins at ANI two weeks ago, Gaba has persisted in making such accusations, at first replacing the word "lying" with "making an untrue statement": [135][136][137][138][139] but by the end he no longer bothered: [140]. You may also note in some of those that he directly accuses editors of bad faith and of vandalism and threatens to take people here - another thing he was told not to do last time around as it only raises the temperature.

I asked him to stop twice [141][142] and he has declined to do so. It is clear to me that Gaba has not learnt a thing from the last ANI.

Gaba's behaviour in this discussion has essentially been a filibuster, a matter of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. It should be no surprise if Curry Monster or anyone else loses patience when an editor makes the same already-refuted argument over and over, who is repeatedly abusive and who insists that no objection to his argument has even been made, despite its having been made repeatedly and detail. Kahastok talk 19:31, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Definitely, I asked User:Hohum for a sanity check as I repeatedly explained the same point. And as I note above I was under the impression there was a consensus to move on. Wee Curry Monster talk 19:37, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Example I repeatedly explained an approach to judge weight [143],[144],[145],[146],[147],[148],[149],[150],[151]

User:Gaba p repeatedly claimed I hadn't [152],[153],[154]

User:Hohum provided the same explanation [155].

User:Gaba p thanks him claiming I hadn't [156]. I did ask Hohum for a sanity check, as he provided an identical explanation. The same explanations were provided by User:Irondome, User:Kahastok, User:Apcbg etc.

You'll note in talk, the frequent reference to a straw man, that I was claiming newspapers were not a reliable source and if my approach to WP:WEIGHT were applied there would be no wiki content. Wee Curry Monster talk 20:16, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Wee and Khastok were both topic-banned not long ago for their disruptive behaviour in Gibraltar related articles[157], and are doing exactly the same now with Falklands related articles (the two disputed former colonies of the UK) They usually work as a team backing each other's edits or defending when something like this comes up (please see my comment below with links to the ANI he is referring to) Right now Kahastok is attempting to side-track this ANI by distracting editors with the same accusations he did at the last ANI.

"I was under the impression there was a consensus to move on", I told him every time he threatened with removing the section that he had no consensus to do so and he did it anyway (please check the talk page) Wee's links presented above are just random comments of him and mine taken out of context. Please go check the discussion at the talk page Talk:Falkland_Islands_sovereignty_dispute and see for yourselves how the discussion actually happened. See also the comment left by editor Scjessey in Wee's talk page which also summarizes the issue quite succinctly.

I note that Wee has been told here that he should have elevated the issue to an admin or at the proper noticeboard but he will still not self-rv the complete deletion of the whole section. Gaba p (talk) 20:36, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

I've had enough of Wee accusing me of being a sock puppet. He's been doing so for a full year now. Last year he accused me of being a sock puppet of account User:Alex79818 and an admin quickly blocked my account. Wee knows this other editor identity (User:Alex79818) in real life. This prompted me to give away my right to anonymity in WP to an admin to reveal that I am not that person. The block was immediately lifted but Wee has kept on accusing me of being a sock puppet. Every chance he gets he has done so, like the last two ANIs that had to be opened on account of his behaviour: 1- breaking the 3RR[158] and 2- moving my comments around[159]. In both of them he kept on accusing me of being a sock puppet and in both of them I offered to any interested admin to reveal once again my real life identity as a sign of good faith. He was told at the last ANI to drop the accusations but apparently has no intentions of doing so.

The first ANI that involved both of us concluded with the admin proposing a topic ban for both of us. As a sign of good faith I embraced the proposition[160], he on the other hand lashed out at the admin saying: "like a lot of content editors before me I can just turn round and say fuck wikipedia, I'm out of here"[161] and went of to "retire" (he never did retire and it only took him two weeks to be back editing Falklands related articles). Everybody looked the other way, nothing happened.

Editor Antidiskriminator came to the talk page to comment on the opened RfC and had this to say about Wee's behaviour: "I am afraid that your editing is disruptive and aimed to circumvent the normal process of consensus."[162]. He apparently took no notice of this.

For how long can he act this way without any consequence? Would this incredible amount of patience be shown to a newcomer editor? Why would he be allowed to circumvent to processes everyone else in WP respects? The last two ANIs ended up with a slap on the wrist for this editor and now here we are back again. It's just not fair. Regards. Gaba p (talk) 19:59, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

I have blocked Gaba for 31 hours. This is not a statement that WCM is innocent, and don't take this sentence as a statement that I think he's guilty of anything; I simply haven't looked into his actions. Gaba has been engaged in numerous WP:NPA#WHATIS violations despite the big ANI discussion to which the "told not to accuse..." link goes; this is disruptive and cannot be permitted here. Nyttend (talk) 20:49, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Corrections

• • Sockpuppet case initial unblock request was refused, as the sock puppet case was compelling, later given the benefit of the doubt after assistance from me and warned not to continue in the same vein.
  • 3RR Despite his claim I breached 3RR, I have not. He has [163],[164],[165],[166]. Those familiar with the subject matter would realise the material he is edit warring to include is incorrect though sourced to a newspaper article.
  • Gibraltar I was topic banned for incivility, as a PTSD sufferer had a bit of a meltdown whilst I was in a bad way mentally in 2010. I never once sought to use my condition to excuse my conduct, I've remained civil ever since and at the first frivolous WP:ANI Gaba p started it was noted I'd remained civil despite repeated provocation. This remains the case and is simply another example of Gaba p's tactic of mud slinging whenever his conduct is called into question.
  • I accept some part of Antidiskriminator's comments about a minor technical breach of etiquette but Gaba p is taking his comments out of context. See Talk:Falkland Islands sovereignty dispute#Comment: for the full exchange.

I have only responded as its my experience with diffs that a disruptive editor like Gaba p quotes diffs out of context and editors used to WP:AGF take it on good faith they support his claim, when if they checked they would find they do not. Wee Curry Monster talk 20:53, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't think the whole handing around details bit proves anything at all. It would be trivial for an editor minded to sockpuppetry to make up a name and location, safe in the knowledge that the chances of them matching the data provided by the other editor are minuscule. And that's before we go into the awkward precedent of handing out editors' private details on request. Kahastok talk 23:05, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

On first impression, as an uninvolved administrator, I would propose a topic ban from this topic for both Gaba p and Wee Curry Monster.

Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 23:59, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

Which would be a massive slap in the face as far as I'm concerned. In the face of continuous personal attacks and incivility I have remained civil and despite unsubstantiated allegations of misconduct such as edit warring (I haven't), I have respected community norms and tried to follow WP:DR (which has been disrupted using the same tactics). I have provided a huge amount of content on Falkland Islands topics, including some obscure content such as Matthew Brisbane, I have contributed massively to maintaining neutrality.

Effectively you would be declaring there is no point in remaining civil, there is no point in following WP:DR as gaming the system is an effective means of getting rid of editors. This is simply a charter for disruptive editors to get rid of any decent content editor who stands in their way. Just create a series of sock puppets, hassle them till they quit, if they don't quit make a series of frivolous complaints at WP:ANI till someone proposes a topic ban, if banned/blocked resurrect a sleeper account and repeat. User:Alex79818 harassed me for years, User:Gaba p appeared immediately after yet another sleeper account was blocked, he has gone after me in exactly the same way User:Alex79818 did. User:Alex79818 tried all ways to have me blocked or topic banned. There is a WP:DUCK quacking with a mega phone here.

Its no co-incidence that as soon as User:Gaba p was blocked, peace reigned and there has been agreement on all sides as to the way forward.[167] Wee Curry Monster talk 10:23, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Check the link for my comments rejecting the AfC

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Mehere Karand article Basket _Feudalist 17:18, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• Not sure why this is here - what admin action is needed? Looks like a perfectly reasonable AfC rejection to me. Black Kite (talk) 18:02, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
  • Ah thanks. I thought it might be worse than just a badly written article; that it have been an attempt at placing imaginary- spoof- facts in the 'pedia. As I said, a google search brings up nothing about the man, the tribe, the sources, or their books. But I didn't want to officially report it until a more experienced editor or admin had had a look. Basket _Feudalist 18:22, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
    • Oversight is always good, but it's best to ask a seasoned AfC editor rather than post on the board. FWIW, administrators aren't necessarily better at judging content than "regular" editors. Drmies (talk) 18:40, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
      • Indeed, but I agree with the OP; I did try to confirm sources but I can find nothing not only about the books but about the tribe itself; even if there's a language issue you'd have have expected something to appear, either about the subject, the book, even the authors; especially as the claimed sources are reasonably recent and one of them is supposed to have been published by Harvard UP and therefore should be in English. Black Kite (talk) 20:00, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

I'll bear that in mind! -so no further action necessary? It has already been rejected anyway. Basket _Feudalist 19:10, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• Hehe, not anymore: I deleted it as a blatant hoax. Those books, they don't exist. The website goes to a Swiss dance ensemble--if it is connected to the article, it's spam. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 20:15, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Disruptive editing - Rich, Rubin and SPECIFICO

Further information: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive782 § User:Xerographica

I have had consistent difficulties with three other editors who consistently edits topics without first reading relevant reliable sources. I've been blocked for a total of three weeks now for personal attacks...which has helped me to understand that "disruptive" is the politically correct way to say "incompetent"...but it has done absolutely nothing to help the editors in question to understand the importance of reading reliable sources.

If you look at the newest sections on the public choice talk page you'll find some discussion between Thomasmeeks and myself. That is a perfect example of an exchange between two editors who have made an obvious effort to read what the reliable sources have to say about a topic. Such exchanges form the basis of constructive edits. But out of the multitude of exchanges that I've had with Rich, Rubin and SPECIFICO...not ONCE have we had an informed discussion. If I'm mistaken, then I'm sure that one of the three editors can provide a link to where it's clear that they've reasonably researched a topic that we've both edited.

These editors are wasting massive amounts of my time. They go around undoing my edits, removing entire sections of reliable sourced content and do not make an effort to research the topics that they edit. Their edits have all been in good faith...but they have not reflected what the reliable sources have to say about the topic.

I've tried, numerous times, to convey to these editors the importance of reading the reliable sources. But it has been to no avail. My hope is that there are some admins who can thoroughly review their conduct.

Also, there's no need to notify them that I'm posting this because all three of them watch my contributions. --Xerographica (talk) 22:56, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• WP:BOOMERANG. No comment, yet, about your alleged attempts at constructive editing and my alleged non-constructive replies — I quite agree that admins should see for themselves. There's no need to notify me, because I also watch this page, but there is a need to notify the others. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 23:04, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
• You might also identify the full user names. I know Rich's editor name, and you apparently know Rich's editor name, but it would be wise to include the links. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 23:17, 29 January 2013 (UTC)
  • The administrators who pay attention will also know the name from the time, just over a week ago, where editor B brought editor A up at this very same noticeboard. ☺ Then of course there are discussions such as Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Economics#Preference revelation, club theory and benefit principle that one could also use. I've just revisited the Xerographica Soapbox Matrix. It's sad to see from that WikiProject Economics discussion that the problem has got worse, not better, since 2010. Uncle G (talk) 23:47, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

• I deny any such disruptive editing or intent. My edit comments and remarks speak for themselves -- on the talk page of Xerographica and in the articles and other talk pages where s/he and I have crossed paths. Xerographica has repeatedly expressed frustration with various editors who have tagged or removed her unverified or non-reliably sourced assertions in several articles. Despite repeated encouragement to provide proper sources which would improve the articles, s/he has largely failed to do so. SPECIFICO talk 23:58, 29 January 2013 (UTC) amended wording: SPECIFICO talk 01:45, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

• {{Gender|Xerographica}} indicates that Xerographica a he NE Ent 02:37, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

• This is me – S. Rich

I've offered Xerographica advice and encouragement along the way, and a few kicks in the butt. (And some of my kicks bounced back to my regret.) Primarily, IMHO, X misunderstands what RS means. There are lots of people who've written about different topics that X takes an interest in. S/he seems to think that posting such stuff, without weaving it into a topic, is justification to keep it posted. The result has been QUOTEFARMS and COATRACKS that are not worth keeping. E.g., the material gets removed, by me and others. X responds by [paraphrasing] "You haven't provided RS that shows this material is not relevant." (And without basis, contends that other editors haven't read the material posted.) I've seen nothing improper with Rubin's or SPECIFICO's edits and talk page remarks. Alas, I've made my errors WRT the 2RR rule and in jumping the gun when I mistakenly thought X had started up with NPA remarks (for which I apologized). But .... I'll allow others to pass on X's present notice. --S. Rich (talk) 00:23, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

• In case anybody accidentally missed it...let me repeat...If I'm mistaken, then I'm sure that one of the three editors can provide a link to where it's clear that they've reasonably researched a topic that we've both edited. --Xerographica (talk) 00:48, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

• Comment. I just reverted an edit by SPECIFICO that had deleted several other user comments, both in this section and others on this board. I also warned SPECIFICO about disruptive editing (refactoring) on his talk page. Other than reverting the refactoring, I am not involved in this case, nor do I care to be. GregJackP Boomer! 01:14, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

The deletion was entirely unintentional and apparently came about when I was trying to do a copy edit on my message of 23:58 above. I will now again try to do that edit of my text. SPECIFICO talk 01:45, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

I can understand accidents, I should have known it wasn't intentional, my apologies. GregJackP Boomer! 02:56, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Such dumps are not uncommon on ANI; the variety of timing and editors involved with them indicates it is a periodic system glitch. NE Ent 02:37, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Responding to the original post ... vague general complaints, especially against multiple editors, just aren't going to be productive. You'd need to assemble a set of diffs showing precisely what the issue is, and, for a ANI request, they should be really significant policy violations, not just harsh words. Wikipedia is a numbers game; if you're unable to convince the other editors as to your position via talk post discussion the best bet is to frame specific rfcs on article and it's possible you'll get the perspective of other editors. NE Ent 02:51, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

You don't think it's a significant policy violation that none of the three editors has been able to provide ONE link to where it's clear that they've reasonably researched a topic that we've both edited? --Xerographica (talk) 03:14, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Nope. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 04:43, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Is vandalism a problem? If so...why? --Xerographica (talk) 08:10, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Vandalism is not relevant to this discussion, as it does not involve vandalism. Please read WP:NOTVAND. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 10:09, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

ACME Boomerang. I just read the OP talk page and it's full of facepalm. Will someone give him a final warning about NPA?  little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer  02:57, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

To explain some jargon to X: "OP" = Original poster (you) (see glossary). Facepalm = Facepalm. –S. Rich (talk) 06:09, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Disruptive Editing by Film Fan

Hello. The user Film Fan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (formerly known as Jsigned) has again been causing disruption at the article Taare Zameen Par. Because the film was released in American cinemas under its foreign title, I and other editors felt that the English title was better referenced later in the lead when the DVD release was specifically mentioned. I even asked about the matter on the naming conventions guideline page here. The article passed FAC with this two years ago. However, six months ago Film Fan began targeting the article and insisting the English name be used for the article despite a unanimous consensus against it. He was blocked several times for his disruptions, with a previous noticeboard discussion here. Now he is back and keeps changing the lead format regarding the English title placement, despite the consensus that was in place for two years. An admin locked the page and told him to discuss it, and not to revert until a consensus on it had been reached. Despite not gaining a consensus for the change, Film Fan ignored the admin's instructions and immediately began reverting to his version once the lock was dropped. I restored the original version and noted the admin's instructions, but Film Fan continues to ignore that. I tried contacting the admin several times, but never got a response. Other editors seem to have given up out of exhaustion of dealing with Film Fan (which seems to be his tactic), and he implied on the talk page that he will continue his pursuit of this no matter what. I do not want to engage in an edit war over this, but this has been happening on-and-off for six months (in the meanwhile which Film Fan has been blocked for edit warring on various other articles). Any help or advice on the matter would be appreciated. Thanks.

Diffs of his reverts after admin's lock:

• 1st revert: diff
• 2nd revert: diff
• 3rd revert: diff
• 4th revert: diff

Discussion on the talk page here Ωphois 23:39, 29 January 2013 (UTC)

For your consideration, may I present to you the 2013 candidate for WP:LAME. This is a discussion that needs to take place on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film and has less to do with editorial behaviors and more to do with how we deal with English titles of foreign films in lead sections. After reviewing the discussion, there appears to have been little compromise by the editors reverting Film Fan over and over again. Now, I'm not saying he is right, but I think a neutral discussion on the Film project talk page should clear this up. If an RfC is needed, then great, but you really need an opinion from someone familiar with guidelines for film-related articles. Viriditas (talk) 01:30, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

If I disagree with his proposal, I am in no way obligated to compromise. That is what developing a consensus is for, which he has failed to do. I am not bringing this here about content dispute. I am here about his continuing disregard of admin instructions and guidelines for BRD. If you read the link I referenced above regarding the prior admin noticeboard report on him, you will see that this is a constant problem with the editor. Ωphois 01:46, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

I reviewed the discussions and saw no attempt to negotiate or compromise with Film Fan, and your statement "I am in no way obligated to compromise" speaks for itself. If you want to actually solve this problem, you should have an advertised RfC preferably on the article talk page or on Film project talk page linked above. Instead, it seems like you are only interested in sanctioning someone who disagrees with you. Viriditas (talk) 02:18, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

No, after six months of dealing with his constant disruptions that usually end in his being blocked, I don't feel a need to compromise if I disagree with him. That is what discussions are for, so that multiple people can contribute their opinions. I voiced my opinion, as has he. If he continually violates WP rules, then I have every right to report him. 02:25, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

The page history shows that two people are dancing the tango; you've been reverting as much as him. If you are truly interested in solving problems rather than fighting a grudge match, then you'll discuss this issue with neutral members of the film project, either on their talk page or in an advertised RfC. Viriditas (talk) 02:38, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I've been reverting the original version per BRD and the admin's instructions. If there is a disagreement over content, then the original version is supposed to stay until a consensus for changing it arises. I will pursue Rfc, but his past history shows that he has no regard for what is established in discussions. His actions remain regardless, and IMO show that he still hasn't learned. Ωphois 02:42, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

What? You are the sole arbiter as to whether or not an article evolves? You have superpowers that prevent an article from ever changing? This is a community, you are under 100% obligation to compromise. WP:BRD does not say "don't BUDGE...simply REVERT and DIE protecting the contents" (✉→BWilkins←✎) 10:22, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Dallas Dempster and User:Dallas Dempster

User:Dallas Dempster Hello. User:Dallas Dempster keeps repeatedly inserting his own biography into the Dallas Dempster article. [168] I have already reverted twice, and another user has reverted as well, and I have also warned the user, but the user persists in adding the information. I would suggest a COI block of some length (possibly including indefinite), or a 3RR block if this persists, but as I've already reverted twice, and COI issues aren't my thing, I'm seeking outside assistance. --Rschen7754 07:09, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

I live in Western Australia and am familiar with Dempster, from news reports. Please just work with him on the article. He's one of the states most rational and reasonable entrepreneurs, and simple respectful discussion will almost certainly do the trick. Remember, he is entitled to add and delete content on his own biography. He will be perfectly capable of grasping and working within our policies and guidelines once they're clearly explained or pointed out to him. Where he offers undocumented assertions, if they're uncontroversial and not puffery, leave them there (with a citation needed tag if you really must). He is an expert on his history, make the most of this opportunity to work with him, and ideally turn him into a productive Wikipedian. He has a lot to offer. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 07:43, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

I already have pointed out our guidelines to him, and he continues to persist in reinserting the information. Furthermore, you still have not addressed the violation of WP:COI, and his edition of the article certainly violates WP:NPOV. --Rschen7754 07:47, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

I've rung the subject. He's on the road and will ring me back later today. I'll let this board know the results of that. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 08:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks - to clarify, it would be preferable not to block here, but we can't compromise our integrity as a site either. Let's see what happens.--Rschen7754 08:12, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

I've spoken with him and heard his concerns. I've asked him to leave the article while I familiarise myself with the background. I'll get back to him and the article talk page with some suggestions once I've done that. It may be a day or so ... there are weird things happening with my internet connection. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 09:15, 30 January 2013 (UTC)