Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2007 August 14

Welcome to the Wikipedia Humanities Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

August 14

How much does a bilingual interpreter make?

I can't find anything in Interpreting, so I wonder how much a certified interpreter (for, say, simultaneous interpreting) can make in the European Union in work between Hungarian and English, assuming they're bilingual, educated in both languages, and certified. Any help?

Thank you!

84.0.158.107 00:01, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

This will be what you want. It appears the salary for an interpreter is 3800 to 5500 euro per month, plus benefits, if you work for the EU. Interpreters/translators are also able to pay the 15% EU tax and then be waived of their country tax. Freelancers may end up making more, see here. Rockpocket 00:17, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you so much! This is exactly the information I was looking for, and both your links are very informative. Thanks again :). 84.0.158.107 01:48, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

It's worth adding that (except for rare languages on an ad hoc basis) the European institutions don't normally employ bilingual interpeters: I mean, they expect those they hire to be able to work in three or four useful languages or more. Xn4 16:52, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

How is Stalin viewed today in China?

I was watching a documentary about elections in China. And while it would be expected that paintings of Sun Yatsen and Lenin still hang there was also a painting of Stalin. In addition a books as late as 1988 the publisher was something like "the state commission for the works of Stalin." Finally I'm aware of several landmarks in China still named after Stalin. What is the current view of Stalin in China and why was MAo such a defender of Stalin int he 1960s after their disputes in the 1930s and 1940s? --Gary123 00:57, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Quite simply because the dead Stalin was a useful stick with which to beat the living Khruschev! Where is Stalin now? Why, he has been consigned to the Pantheon, even less relevant for present-day China than the Great Helmsman himself! Clio the Muse 01:50, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Schmokers

I have run into this term in conversation and the web lately but can't seem to find any google meaning or on this site...it may be computer term for a group of some kind but I can seem to find a meaning...thanks

"Shmoke and a pancake" is from Austin Powers in Goldmember, maybe that's the origin. Adam Bishop 02:25, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Another süggestion: The noun Schmöker is German for a thick and heavy book, and the verb schmökern means to browse through a thick and heavy book. ---Sluzzelin talk 04:09, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

hindi provinces

Which Indian provinces speak Hindi as its first official language?

This article Official_languages_of_India#Languages_currently_used_by_Indian_states_and_union_territories should answer your question. DuncanHill 02:10, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

How can you compare price index data pre- and post-reweightings

At least historically, governments have computed their Consumer Price Indexes by tracking how the price of buying a fixed basket of goods changes over time. To keep the index useful, the governments would from time to time update the basket of goods to reflect what citizens were currently buying. What I would like to know is what they do to make it meaningful to compare the data from before one of these reweightings to the data from after.

For instance, say a country reweights its basket every five years: 1980, 1985, etc.. Say they've also done several calculations; they've calculated index values for 1980-1984 using the 1980 basket, index values for 1985-1989 using the 1985 basket, and so on, all the way through 1994. Now let's say they want to graph their consumer price index through time, from 1980 to 1994. (I know they do make such graphs.) How do they massage the data so that it makes sense to compare the data pre- and post-reweightings? For instance, what do they do so that it makes sense to compare the 1984 value against the 1985 value, or the 1989 value to the 1990 value? It seems like they must do something, or else they're comparing apples to oranges. That is, or else the "price changes" they report can be equally well attributed to changes in the basket.

I know these days they're turning toward chained Fisher indexes and such to help solve these problems. I'm curious how it has worked historically, though. --Ryguasu 05:06, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I always assumed they calculate the index using the old method, then set that value as the baseline for the new method. It's true that the index isn't very useful in tracking long range price changes, but, then again, no method is. How can you compare the cost of cars to the cost of horses and buggies ? They are completely different things. StuRat 20:12, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Book with no Es

I seem to recall reading about a full length book written without the use of the letter E. It had also been translated into other languages without using E again. Any idea what it is? Thanks -- SGBailey 08:32, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

La Disparition by Georges Perec, translated into English as A Void by Gilbert Adair. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 08:36, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

An earlier book in English without E's was Gadsby by Ernest Vincent Wright. I'm not aware of its having been translated, though. Incindetally, whereas A Void contains references in ints text to its unusual nature, Gadsby ignores it.

If the concept of preserving unusual features of language in translation is an interesting subject for you, by the way, then you ought to read Le Ton beau de Marot by Douglas R. Hofstadter. It's got to be the longest book ever written about the translation of a 28-line poem, as well as a poignant memoir about the death of the author's wife. --Anonymous, August 14, 2007, 22:41 (UTC).

In terms of in fictional fiction with no use of the letter E, the ne plus ultra must be "Lo! The Flat Hills of my Homeland" by Adrian Mole, which apparenty uses no vowels at all. I guess it's no wonder that in the Moleverse, he can't even get it vanity published...--Shirt58 12:24, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

How was the author's name spelled in La Disparition? Gorgs Prc? And of course the second book should have been titled 'L! Th flt hlls f m hmlnd'. DirkvdM 04:35, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I first heard of A Void from Le Ton beau de Marot. Hofstadter points out that while it is difficult to write a novel with no letter e, translating said book while still avoiding the letter e is probably much harder. I read the English translation.. it's not bad-- a kind of surreal mystery involving a detective-like search for "something missing" that no one can quite describe... One of my favorite parts is the e-less version of Edgar Allan Poe's poem The Raven with its famous refrain nevermore... or as put in A Void: "quoth that black bird, not again!" It's a fun book. Pfly 08:32, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Perec's name is spelled normally on both the French and English versions of La Disparition; you can see covers at amazon.com. It's only the title and the body of the book that are E-less. --Anon, August 16, 05:01 (UTC).

human rights

where do rights come from?

Self preservation is one answer - eg I treat/give other people the human rights I would expect since I know/fear that they may 'learn from example' and treat me as I treat them.

Also some people hold the view that people are 'naturally good' (see the philosopher Mencius for example) - therefor would naturally have an innate understanding of what are human rights - and so to ignore someones 'human rights' would be unnatural (a perversion, illness, or crime etc)..87.102.66.187 11:03, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

You might want to look at altruism and The Selfish Gene in relation to altruism. The God Delusion also looks at morality all which of venn into human rights. (Can you use venn as a verb? Sounds good.) Lanfear's Bane

(I'm not sure why you're 'advertising' two Richard Dawkin's books - are they really the best source for an understanding of human rights? - perhaps you ARE Richard Dawkins?)87.102.66.187 11:44, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

You might want to look at Human_rights#Justification_of_human_rights for various theories of why people think human rights are good or neccessary. I'd like to point out that human rights can be considered the absolute minimum for standards of treatment of human beings and do not cover everything that might be expected of a hypothetical 'good human being'. There's an essay http://www.iep.utm.edu/h/hum-rts.htm that you might find useful - specifically section 4a.87.102.66.187 12:01, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

For a simpler explanation you could consider a hypothetical situation in which people do not respect human rights - as you can probably imagine the world would rapidly descend into chaos with murder,theft,slavery, etc etc happening - this is the simple reason why human rights are assumed - and in general garanteed by laws, constitutions etc.87.102.66.187 12:19, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

No I'm not Richard Dawkins, although he has a verified Wikipedia account as it happens. I think whoever both of these books gave me a better understanding of the foundation of how such things come about within society and how such balances are arrived at. Plus the OP's question was very open and it never hurts to recommend a good read. Lanfear's Bane

The term human rights is odder than it sounds, as nearly all of the rights which have been established anywhere are human (as opposed to animal or divine) rights. You do clearly need to separate moral or religious 'rights' from legal rights - although sometimes they might coincide, as when Sharia law is also the civil law of a country or region. Moral or religious rights are usually founded in holy books such as The Bible and The Koran, and often have no mechanism for enforcement, while legal rights are founded in laws or constitutions made by a variety of legislators and/or judges, viz. Civil codes, statute law, common law, etc., and can usually be enforced through the courts. Some countries have a Bill of rights, of which Magna Carta can be seen as an early example (see Important bills of rights). In today's Europe we have the Council of Europe's Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, which has been incorporated into the law of the UK by the Human Rights Act 1998. Almost every European country, including the former Soviet republics, has ratified this European Convention. Xn4 16:25, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

The United States Declaration of Independence, written by Thomas Jefferson say this:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

This seems to both say that the rights are obvious and inherent, and that they are granted by God. I don't happen to agree, but that is Jefferson's opinion (and the Second Continental Congress agreed, presumably, since they adopted it and each member signed it). StuRat 17:41, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Europe and the Thirty Years War

Help! I'm trying to make sense of the origins of the Thirty Years War without an awful lot of success. I know about religious tensions within the Empire, but what other factors were important and why did the other European powers get drawn in? I thought it might be a simple post Reformation religious struggle, but on closer look it does not seem like that at all. It's all so horribly complex. So, help, please!!! Pere Plexed 10:27, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Besides the religious dimension, the war was also a conflict among the great powers of Europe. One of the issues was the dominance of the Holy Roman Empire by Catholic Habsburg Austria, traditionally allied with Habsburg Spain. France felt encircled and threatened by these Habsburg powers and wanted to keep them in check. Meanwhile, Protestant Denmark and Sweden sought to expand their spheres of influence in mainly Protestant northern Germany. The religious issues served largely as ideological justifications for the actions of the belligerent powers. Marco polo 15:02, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I can understand your confusion, and sympathise with all those coming to this question for the very first time. Most of the standard texts take the 'deep root' approach, which often serves to add to the sense of bewilderment. So, here is a simple thread through the labyrinth: forget about the long-term and focus on the immediate causes. The war began as an internal dispute in the Hapsburg realm, a political rebellion in Bohemia against the political authority and the religious policy of the Emperor. Although at the outset it had purely local significance, like a stone thrown into a pond the waves spread outwards, across European shores. It had the effect of drawing in a whole series of latent conflicts and tensions: the Danes and Swedes were concerned about their position on the Baltic, and the French were concerned, as Marco has indicated, by the threat of Habsburg power for their own national security.

Beyond this the Counter Reformation had the effect of upsetting the uncertain balance of the Imperial constitution, and brought the Diet into a state of political deadlock. Some form of renewed compromise along the lines of the Peace of Augsburg may have worked; but the throne, first of Bohemia, and then of the Empire, was occupied by a Crusader: Ferdinand II, a man of the Counter-Reformation, who was determined not to compromise on Catholic values and Habsburg prestige. For him the Defenestrations of Prague was too much provocation to bear. And so began the deluge. Clio the Muse 00:53, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

sister-in-law-in-law

My sister is my sister because we share the same parents and my sister's husband is my brother-in-law because in law he is my brother but he is not my real brother because we do not share the same parents and if my brother-in-law has a sister because he shares the same parents with her is she then my sister-in-law-in-law and if so can I marry her? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mapper of the streets (talk • contribs)

Yes you could, she is not related to you at all, genetically (as far as you know) or legally. Lanfear's Bane

Depends on the nation and/or state. You almost certainly can. (Perhaps commas can be part of the dowry.) Geogre 12:21, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Are you suggesting, Geogre, that it is illegal in some places? I am amazed. - Kittybrewster (talk) 12:25, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

It can be. In some nations, there are still strict regulations on sisters and wives. As late as 1680, it was a "scandal" for a man to have an affair with his sister-in-law in England. I.e. "it depends." The questioner did not say the nation, and I suspect that the punctuation was a sign of being a non-native English speaker, so giving a blanket "it's fine" would be improper. It's probably fine. It's genetically fine. It's religiously fine in Judaism and Christianity, so far as I know, but some interpretations of some primitive forms might suggest that an older brother has control over his wife's sisters. Geogre 12:51, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure it still would be a scandal to have an affair with one' sister in law! --Counter-revolutionary 13:57, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

It is common in India for a Brother & Sister from one family marrying Sister & Brother of another family respectively. Valid! Slmking 15:14, 14 August 2007 (UTC) slmking

I'm with Lanfear's Bane and Slmking on this, as the sister-in-law-in-law described by Mapper of the streets is not (at least in English law) a sister-in-law. I'm pretty sure there have been cases in English history of two brothers (of one family) marrying two sisters (of another), although I can't think of any instances off hand. Xn4 15:26, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Hmph. That happened in my family tree a lot. Mostly in Tennessee and Arkansas in the 19th century. Corvus cornix 15:50, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I know of at least two instances of two brothers marrying two sisters, and vice versa. --Counter-revolutionary 15:52, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Not quite the same thing, but the Deceased Wife's Sister's Marriage Act 1907 may make interesting reading on the broader topic of marrying one's in-laws. Angus McLellan (Talk) 18:31, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

In Canada, the law on marrying relatives, the Marriage (Prohibited Degrees) Act, is pretty simple, and the Interpretation Act contains nothing that would suggest that the words "brother" or "sister" include in-laws. So while we don't do legal opinions here, it seems safe to conclude unofficially that the marriage in question would be legal in Canada. --Anonymous, August 14, 2007, 22:52 (UTC).

---

In the kinship terminology systems of some languages, there are distinct terms for "man's wife's sister's husband" and/or "woman's husband's brother's wife" (Sometimes the "woman's husband's brother's wife" term is the same as the term that one wife in a polygynous marriage uses to refer to another wife of her husband.) Not sure there's a distinct term for "man's sister's husband's sister" in any language, but you can almost certainly marry her... Of course, if a brother and a sister marry another sister and brother, then the "man's sister's husband's sister" is just his own wife! AnonMoos 19:34, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

---

• The Ray Stephens song below throws a little light on some potential problems of kinship by marriage. Hear it here. Xn4 22:46, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

See article I'm My Own Grandpa. If the song was written in 1947, including the lyrics here would seem to be a copyright violation. AnonMoos 07:50, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the reminder, AnonMoos. Xn4 15:57, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Hehe, like Corvus cornix I too have multiple examples of pairs of siblings marrying other (unrelated) pairs of siblings in my family tree -- also mostly from Tennessee and Arkansas. There's nothing remotely incestuous about it. The children of the two couples would be double first cousins with one another. The song I'm My Own Grandpa is very funny. I asked about this general topic a while ago, here. Respondents provided nifty graphics and explored the somewhat paradoxical relationships that can result. Fun fun.. Pfly 08:42, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Correction, the question I asked before was slightly different -- rather than two pairs of siblings marrying, it was a father and son marrying an (unrelated mother and daughter). That is the starting point of I'm my own grandpa, I believe. One step odder than sibling pairs marrying. Pfly 08:44, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

For about the closest relationship possible, consider the case of twins marrying twins, apparently called a "quaternary marriage" (wonder if that applies to non-twin siblings, too). And it raises the interesting point that when two pairs of identical twins marry and have children, those children are, genetically, siblings! Confusing Manifestation 06:07, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Urgent

I need an quick response. How do I get out of a speeding ticket? My trial is in 6 hours. Thanks XM 13:29, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

We don't provide legal advice. Even if we did, it would be hard to do so without knowing which country (where relevant, what state) you're in, and under what circumstances you were issued with the ticket. --Dweller 13:40, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

As you've asked it here, it's clear you want something other than legal advice, I therefore suggest you read If by Rudyard Kipling, and seek to appply its philosophy to your own life. Best wishes. DuncanHill 13:44, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Either drive a De Lorean or accept your punishment. This is neither legal nor temporal advice. Lanfear's Bane

There's a whole heap of precedents here ([1]) Not sure if Mark Milton's defence will work for you. --Dweller 14:26, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

As a police officer, I would say you don't, you live with it, and don't speed next time :) SGGH ^speak! 18:00, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Hope the officer doesn't show up. Other than that, there's not much you can do in only six hours. --Carnildo 23:02, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Crime and Punishment '2'

The last paragraph of Dostoyevsky's Crime and Punishment says that Raskolnikov's transition and change to a new man 'might constitute the theme of a new narrative' (according to the translation I have). Do any of his subsequent novels explore this (not with Raskolnikov, but the theme in general)? SolidNatrix 13:47, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Dostoevsky wrote many fine novels after Crime and Punishment, including The Devils, The Idiot and The Brothers Karamazov, but a tale of redemption and transfiguration was not among them. In fact it might even be thought of as an impossible project, because it would require a translation into the ideal; a new country and a new man; a world of Russian values and Orthodox convictions; a brave new world that has such people like Prince Myshkin in it. I would go so far as to say that Dostoevsky was too great a writer to create a believable fiction based on these ideal themes. Clio the Muse 00:09, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps unsurprisingly, building a new man later became part of the official policy of the Bolsheviks after the Russian Revolution brought them to power. One of the minor themes of Pasternak's Doctor Zhivago is Zhivago's dismay about this. Xn4 00:32, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

have your speedometer callibrated

<No question was posted>

I assume this is a question on how to do so ? I suppose a mechanic can do that for you, but I'd just clock the speed using mile markers and a stopwatch and figure out how far off the speedometer is. Then I'd just remember "it reads about 5% high" and apply that to figure out the exact speed. You could also put a piece of tape on the speedometer with the corrected values, if you want. BTW, this would have been an excellent question for either the Science or Computer Ref Desk. StuRat 17:29, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

My guess is that this was an attempted response to the thread headed "Urgent" just up there ^. It's a good idea. If only he'd thought of it in time, lol. On the other hand, in most jurisdictions, I think it'd only help with mitigation, rather than being a good excuse. --Dweller 17:38, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I rather suspect, instead, that this was a comment directed to XM (above) which got misplaced. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 17:37, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

How Likely is a Draft?

I am wondering how likely is a draft to occur in the United States as of now and in the future? (10-20 years in the future) Bond Extreme 16:04, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

None of us can accurately predict the future. Marco polo 16:12, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

That's obviously very wrong. All of us can very accurately predict some aspects of the future, and completely accurately predict certain other aspects of the future. In fact, it would be very special indeed if an adult American could not predict the future more accurately than a random number generator! That's because the things of interest to us don't happen at the roll of the die. For example, if temperatures world-wide are between -150 and 150 degrees Fahrenheit (I googled for "word record temperatures" and added a little to each value), then you can still predict tomorrow's weather more accurately than a random number generator returning a number between -150 and 150! Indeed, I would argue that people are INCREDIBLY accurate at predicting the future -- of course, a lot of this has to do with the fact that we CREATE the future. For example, it's no surprise that on a grocery trip we buy EXACTLY THE ITEMS that we end up needing the next day for a recipe we're making -- we certainly predicted that we would be making that recipe, and although something could have come in the way, it's not surprising that things generally happen as expected. Elections and laws are the same way -- created by people, not a random number generator.

So, regarding your question on the draft: It is out of the question now (guaranteed not to happen), and out of the question within the next ten to twenty years. In fact, there will not be a general draft instated in America in the next fifty years. And you can hold me to that, because I will be alive during all that time.

81.182.171.23 16:35, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

p.s. people who are anal can insert the words "the magnitude of" in the appropriate place in my comment)

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1652179,00.html Corvus cornix 16:17, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

See [2]. If the U.S entered a conventional war like World War 2, with a declaration of war after the military forces of a major foreign power attacked the U.S., or even an undeclared geopolitical war like Vietnam with its high level of troop deployment, the voluntary military would probably be unable to supply the manpower needed. In the present "Global War On Terror," which is not quite what I described in the previous sentence, providing the present level of occupation forces in Iraq and Afghanistan requires that the military personnel be repeatedly deployed for longer and longer tours with shorter and shorter breaks in between, which required dropping the time limits for deployment and for rest. Military leaders (active and recently retired) have called this level of deployment unsustainable. In World War 2 and in Vietnam, a far larger force was deployed, made possible by the draft. So to determine the likelihood of a draft in the next 10 to 20 years, one would have to determine the likelihood of another war like World War 2 or the Vietnam conflict. Reintroduction of the draft could occur practically overnight, because draft boards have been maintained on a standby basis and young men have been required to register for the draft. But the draft was seen as a motivator of college students to protest against the Vietnam War, and the "economic draft" of low income or unemployed Americans has not generated the level of protest on campuses that the Vietnam era draft did. Liberal politician Charlie Wrangel has urged a return to the draft precisely because it would bring the war home to the middle and upper class families. There was a much broader portion of society with their progeny at risk when draftees fought wars, although the well-connected could get assignments unlikely to see combat. Ironically, with the all volunteer army, those national guard and reserve units which were "safer" in the Vietnam War have seen repeated deployment to Iraq. Edison 16:27, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Please avoid debating about politics. The articles conscription and conscription in the United States should help. 199.125.109.19 16:47, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I would not characterize my answer as a "debate," but a reasoned and fact-based answer to the question. Was there a part of it you want to see references for? Edison 21:34, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Well this all sort of answers my question. I am looking toards what you are saying, 81.182.171.23 or at least I think that is what your name is on here. All you are really saying is that it is or it is not likely for these things to happen. I would like some detail in the answer. Describe why these things will or will not happen please. Bond Extreme 16:48, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

It's due to popular opinion, which is based on a subconscious "risk vs. reward" analysis. Most Americans aren't convinced that winning the war in Iraq is of critical importance, but were convinced that winning, say, World War 2 was of critical importance. To ask people to risk their lives and the lives of their friends and relatives on something they consider unimportant isn't going to work. Politicians which voted for the draft would either be recalled or voted out of office at the next opportunity. Knowing this, they aren't likely to pass such a bill. Note that this could all change in an instant, however, if Americans were suddenly convinced that winning a war was of critical importance and couldn't be done without a draft. A major WMD attack on a US city that killed tens or hundred of thousands of people might do it, for example. StuRat 17:23, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Supporting my statement above that the present volunteer system could not suffice for a higher intensity conflict than the present Global War On Terror, the Army Chief of Staff today said [3] the demand for forces exceeds the supply and if the demand doesn't go down "the Army will need a mechanism to provide more forces." Case said the draft is "absolutely not under consideration" at the moment. He did not say it would never be reinstituted no matter what. Edison 04:32, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Orator Hunt

Could someone please tell me a little more about the political career of Henry Hunt? Pacific231 18:37, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Henry Hunt (politician) is rather sketchy, but this adds more. Gutenberg has works by Hunt, and Google books has no end of C19th material on him. Angus McLellan (Talk) 18:48, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

There's a Dictionary of National Biography article about him online here. If you have access problems, you may be able to get in by going here and clicking on the link for Dictionary of National Biography. Xn4 21:51, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Members of most British libraries can access DNB for free from home with their library card number, more info here [4] DuncanHill 23:43, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Dear old 'Orator' Hunt, the star of Peterloo, a man who has had a particularly bad historical press. There have, however, been one or two attempts to redress the balance, and he is now more properly seen as a pioneer of working-class radicalism, and an important influence on the later Chartist movement.

He was first draw into radical politics during the Napoleonic Wars, becoming a supporter of Francis Burdett. His talent for public speaking became noted in the electoral politics of Bristol, where he denounced the complacency of both the Whigs and the Tories, and proclaimed himself a supporter of democratic radicalism. It was thanks to his particular talents that a new programme beyond the narrow politics of the day made steady progress in the difficult years that followed the conclusion of the war with France. Because of his rousing speeches at mass meetings held in Spa Fields in London in 1817-18 he became known as the 'Orator', a term of disparagement accorded by his enemies. He embraced a programme that included annual parliaments and universal suffrage, promoted openly and with none of the conspiratorial element of the old Jacobin clubs. The tactic he most favoured was that of 'mass pressure', which he felt, if given enough weight, could achieve reform without insurrection.

Although his efforts at mass politics had the effect of radicalising large sections of the community unrepresented in Parliament, there were clear limits as to how far this could be taken. The debacle at Peterloo, caused by an overreaction of the local Manchester authorities, added greatly to his prestige, but it advanced the cause not one step. Moral force was not sufficient in itself, and physical force entailed too great a risk. Although urged to do so after Peterloo, Hunt refused to give his approval to schemes for a full-scale insurrection. Thereby all momentum was lost, as more desperate souls turned to worn out cloak-and-dagger schemes, which surfaced in the Cato Street Conspiracy.

While in prison for his part in Peterloo, Hunt turned to writing, to putting his message across through a variety of forms, including an autobiography, his very own Mein Kampf, and just as tedious and self-regarding! After his release he attempted to recover some of his lost fortune by beginning new business ventures in London, which included the production and marketing of a roasted corn 'Breakfast Powder', the "most salubrious and nourishing Beverage that can be substituted for the use of Tea and Coffee, which are always exciting, and frequently the most irritating to the Stomach and Bowels." Catchy, is it not!? He also made shoe-blacking bottles, which carried the slogan "Equal Laws, Equal Rights, Annual Parliaments, Universal Suffrage, and the Ballot." Synthetic coal, intended specifically for the French market, was another of his schemes. After the July Revolution in 1830 he sent samples to Gilbert du Motier, marquis de La Fayette and other political heroes, along with fraternal greetings.

Business interests notwithstanding, he still found time for practical politics, fighting battles over a whole range of issues, and always pushing for reform and accountability. As a consistent champion of the working classes, a term he used with increasing frequency, he opposed the Whigs, both old and new, and the Reform Act of 1832, which he believed did not go far enough in the extension of the franchise. He gave speeches addressed to the 'Working Classes and no other', urging them to press for full equal rights. In his opposition to the Reform Bill he revived the Great Northern Union, a pressure group he set up some years before, intended to unite the northern industrial workers behind a platform of full democratic reform; and it is in this specifically that we can detect the germs of Chartism. Worn out by his struggles he died in 1835, like Moses never to see the Promised Land. Clio the Muse 02:21, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Stalin and the Purges

What was Stalin's role in the origins of the Great Purges? Fred said right 20:06, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

He played the lead. We have an article at Great Purge. Xn4 21:40, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Plato on 'third region' and fuzzy logic

Hello all, in a wikipedia article about founder of fuzzy logic, Lofti Zadeh, there is a following claim: "Plato laid the foundation of what is now known as fuzzy logic indicating that there was a third region beyond true and false." Does anybody know more specifically about Plato's opinion on this? mel

CSISS has this long thing which seems to discuss it SGGH ^speak! 22:26, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

there is a lot of this claim, often even same phrasing, but not a single way beyond to the source, or what Platon really wrote about it. tnx mel

For me, the first thing to come to mind is Aristotle's Sea Battle example. It goes like this. There are two opposing forces contesting an area of some sea, call it Sea X. Tomorrow, there either will or will not be a battle in Sea X. This all depends on whether or not the Captain of the approaching naval force gives the command to attack. The next day, a local newspaper will report whether or not there was a Sea Battle. Statements about this instance would look like this: "There was a Sea Battle Yesterday" or "There was no Battle at Sea Yesterday, Forces Surrender." These newspaper headlines epitomize how we make statements concerning the past. Mostly, we think about statements concerning the future in the same way as we do statements concerning the past. For example, we might say that one of the following is true and the other is false:

1. There will be a Sea Battle Tomorrow.

2. There will not be a Sea Battle Tomorrow.

However, if right now (now being an instance preceding the possible Sea Battle) one of those statements is definitely true and the other is definitely false, then the Captain of the approaching force could do nothing to effect whether or not there is a battle. This does not follow. The Captain will decide tomorrow whether or not there will be a Sea Battle, and he can not decide if one of the previous 2 statements are definitely true or false. So, statements made about the future are special; we make a mistake when we think about them in the same way we think about statements concerning the past. Thus, statements concerning the future are neither true nor false. If they were true or false now, free will would be negated. Perhaps this is the region you are referring to?
Mrdeath5493 04:55, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank You, this was a very good lead, but it was actually uttered by Aristotle

The classic argument for fatalism occurs in Aristotle (384-322 B.C.E.), De Interpretatione, chapter 9. He addresses the question of whether in relation to all questions it is necessary that the affirmation or the negation is true or false.

What he says could be presented as an argument along the following lines.

• Suppose that (i) p is true or p is false and (ii) not-p is true or not-p is false.
• Then p is true or not-p is true.
• Now suppose that in 1900 one person says that a sea-battle will take place on 1/1/2100, and another says that a sea-battle will not take place on 1/1/2100.
• Then either what the first person says is true or what the second person says is true.
• But, in that case, either it is necessary in 1900 that a sea-battle takes place on 1/1/2100, or it is necessary in 1900 that one does not take place.
• But the date of the predictions is irrelevant, and it is irrelevant whether any prediction is actually made at all.
• So it is necessary at all times that a sea-battle takes place on 1/1/2100, or that a sea-battle does not take place on 1/1/2100.
• But the argument can evidently be generalised.
• So, everything that happens, happens of necessity.

So, is there anything wrong with the argument? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.40.41.10 (talk • contribs) 11:52, August 15, 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it appears in those weird box thingies and is hard to read as a result of you pressing the tab key before each point. 38.112.225.84 12:30, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, I've fixed the formatting - but the line of argument makes no sense to me at all. Gandalf61 15:24, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

What is wrong with the argument is that it is begging the question. The question here seems to be "in relation to all questions [is it] necessary that the affirmation or the negation is true or false." The fourth point of the argument then states "either what the first person says is true or what the second person says is true." This statement assumes that what you are trying to prove is actually proven, i.e. that the answers to all questions must be either true or false. But until that is proven correct, it cannot be used to support the argument. - Eron ^Talk 17:51, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Whats' the difference between heavy and light industry?

Whats' the difference between heavy and light industry? particularly in the context of Soviet vs western economics. Are there any particular products that can only be build by heavy/slight industry? --Jacobin1949 22:22, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Heavy industry, light industry SGGH ^speak! 22:36, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

In the context of soviet vs western - in comedy the soviets only had heavy industry. Perhpas there was some truth behind the joke.87.102.4.73 08:28, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

A typical light industry is computers, and the USSR had developed their own system. Can't remember what it's called, though, and I can't find it in either computer or personal computer. Maybe that is an indication of how we got that idea. If there's no info about something we're likely to believe it doesn't exist. DirkvdM 06:33, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Then let's get rid of this temporary agnosticism quickly: There is History of computer hardware in Soviet Bloc countries, List of Soviet computer systems and the categories Category:Computing in the Soviet Union and Category:Soviet computer systems feature more articles. ---Sluzzelin talk 04:13, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

That history article is pretty sketchy (which supports my point). I added the Vector-06C to it, which, I believe, was the one I was thinking of. DirkvdM 09:02, 18 August 2007 (UTC)