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South Korean media reports claim that North Korea has been placed under martial law with another nuclear test considered to be imminent. (The Telegraph)
A teacher suffers scrapes and bruises and a 14-year-old boy is shot in the back of the neck and suffers a non-life-threatening wound at Luther Judson Price Middle School, a newer Atlanta Public Schools facility in Atlanta, Georgia, United States. The boy is stable at a hospital and the suspected student was safely disarmed by a resource officer and arrested. (NBC News)(CBS News)(Fox News)(BBC)
The New York Times claims that Chinese hackers have broken into their computers and stolen passwords of high-profile members and reporters over the past four months, around the same time the paper began an investigation involving wealth accumulation by relatives of PremierWen Jiabao. (CNN)(The New York Times)
Serbia's Prime MinisterIvica Dačić, who was flashed by a mode] without underwear masquerading as a television interviewer, launches an investigation into how he became the target of the prank. (Daily Mail)(The Sun)
Lean oppose. Is this really new news? The legality of the settlements has always been one of the primary disputes; now we just have some in the UN saying that(and I don't think the UN has ever held the opposing view). This almost certainly will not change anything on the ground there or Israeli policy. 331dot (talk) 11:19, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Support it's a report, not a binding resolution, but it does decree that the Israeli settlements are blatantly illegal. The fact that everyone knows this, and that Isreal has ignored previous resolutions doesn't detract from the significance here. A binding security council resolution declaring Israel in violation of article 49 and calling on the government to withdraw would be an easy support. Israel would still ignore it though. --IP98 (talk) 14:10, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. "Someone opines on the Israeli-Palestinian dispute" is hardly special. Especially when it comes from a political agenda-driven body such as the UN Human Rights Council. Resolute17:05, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - I disagree with Resolute's characterisation of the UNHRC, but I agree with the conclusion: this is still just 'a committee gives a non-binding opinion'. Not really news. AlexTiefling (talk) 17:37, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Syrian sources claim that the true objective of the raid was a weapon research center northwest of Damascus and that two people were killed in the action. (BBC)
Article needs updating Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Similarly unsure. As a group the Andrews Sisters are notable, but it's difficult to say whether this notability filters down to the individual members. Currently the death update for Patty Andrews is a single sentence. One good way I've found of assessing notability is to see if an ITN-quota update in relation to the individual's death reads well in the article, or if it clearly looks overdone. --LukeSurltc14:40, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That's exactly what Patty complained about according to The New York Times, "Every time we got an award, it was just one award for the three of us.” -SusanLesch (talk) 16:28, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support Iconic 40's figure with great influence on history of pop music. Once this is updated let's put both this and Pham Duy up. μηδείς (talk) 18:30, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Pull immediately I cannot understand how this can be posted with no extant article on the topic, which implies that there is a reduced or no notability at all. Note that there are many similar cases throughout history with separate articles (e.g. Brother Grimm, Brontë family, etc.). Furthermore, the number of articles on the English Wikipedia is sufficient to state that there must be an article on a topic to be featured on the main page.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 00:45, 2 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The people you mentioned are noted for their individual contributions; the Bronte family never wrote books together, but books individually. Others, like the Andrews Sisters do have combined articles because they are notable for what they did together. See the Wright brothers: it's not like we wouldn't post them because they don't have individual articles (assuming they died recently). SpencerT♦C18:53, 2 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Both of which are stubs that could potentially be merged to the central article. The point is that there are examples of both cases throughout Wikipedia, and I don't believe that removal from RD should be dependent on the existence of individual articles. SpencerT♦C06:02, 3 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Not entirely the removal should depend on the existence of article, but it should always draw a line of sufficiency on something. I opine that there is some notability beyond Patty Andrews, but it really strikes me that there is no single article about her.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 16:14, 3 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Back in '67 the vote was oppose, since Maxene and Patty were still touring with a replacement for Laverne. In 1995 the vote was wait since editors didn't want two postings in a row. Well, last week the time finally came. μηδείς (talk) 17:28, 5 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Article needs updating The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Strongly oppose blurb, but strongly support inclusion. The launch is significant, however whether it makes South Korea the "eleventh country to perform an orbital launch" is debatable because the rocket they used is mostly Russian. I would strongly advocate a more neutral blurb. I have added a proposed alternative to the template: "South Korea conducts the first successful launch of the Naro-1 rocket, placing the STSAT-2C satellite into orbit." --W.D.Graham11:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support concept of posting, but blurb should clarify that it was the first launch from their own territory, as they have put satellites into orbit using other nations' rockets previously. 331dot (talk) 11:11, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support alt blurb. But if we can post SK getting a half Russian rocket up after the 3rd attempt, we can definately post Irans launch. --IP98 (talk) 11:45, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - SK already has a space programme - this is just a change of launch location and vehicle. And the original blurb is rather telling: being the eleventh country to attain a particular distinction isn't terribly notable. AlexTiefling (talk) 11:48, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
A "change of launch location and vehicle" is the whole point. They can now do it themselves instead of paying other nations to do it. 331dot (talk) 23:19, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You are certainly free to question this type of story's presence on ITN/R, but until it is removed from there this story can still go up assuming the quality is OK. 331dot (talk) 23:19, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support we post more than 4 golf stories every year. Posting the 11th country to reach this status is waay rarer than the golf postings. Nergaal (talk) 22:58, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The UK announces it will deploy 330 military personnel to Mali and other West African countries in support of French forces operating in the area. (BBC)
Support pending update I would say most commercial flight plane-crashes are significant enough due to their nature, so I would say this should be posted. What's going on with plane crashes in Kazakhstan? That's the second one in 2 months, and at least the third in the last few years or so. -- Anc516 (Talk ▪ Contribs) 12:34, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support as long as the article gets extended. This is a moderately significant commercial plane crash, and while I agree that it's striking there have been so many in Kz lately, they aren't so plentiful that they can be treated as routine. AlexTiefling (talk) 14:08, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I don't think a plane crash is intrinsically notable enough. This one had a relatively low death toll; news coverage seems very much below what we'd expect for an ITN item.--Johnsemlak (talk) 18:20, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose. While tragic, I don't feel the death toll is high enough to post this, unless there is some aggravating factor (like the dead being all children, or the crash was due to a hijacking/terrorist act). 331dot (talk) 02:37, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. We don't post bus crashes even if they have more than 20 victims. Unless something makes this crash interesting I don't see the point in posting it. Thue (talk) 18:02, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
French troops take over Timbuktu Airport as they enter the city without any resistance from the Islamists. Residents report that the French now control all access to the city. (BBC)
Nominator's comments: An update on the conflict in Mali, which seems to be reaching a decisive point. Also the loss of the institute, and the ancient manuscripts within, is of encyclopaedic importance. --LukeSurltc22:23, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support in general, though I would just have a blurb that states that a joint force has captured Timbuktu, and leave the aftermath to the article.--Johnsemlak (talk) 22:27, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Wait until someone bothers with a five sentence update for at least one of the articles. Hint. Hint. Otherwise this will be three days old if it's ever posted. μηδείς (talk) 05:25, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Note: Timbuktu Manuscripts might be the more pertinent article. By the nature of the fact this happened in Timbuktu, a part of the world synonymous with being remote, it may take a little time for reliable news sources to appear. --LukeSurltc08:31, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support for notability. I agree with Luke that the article to be linked should be Timbuktu Manuscripts. The Ahmed Baba Institute is (was) a comparatively uninteresting modern building. The invaluable heritage is made up of the manuscripts. Currently there is an update of two sentences - a bit feeble. --RJFF (talk) 15:09, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Update reports seem to be mixed on what has actually happened to the manuscripts/libraries.[4] As we definately do not wish to be later discovered to be wrong on ITN we should probably refrain from posting a story on the manuscripts now. The general status of the war however could be an item. LukeSurltc18:50, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'd be willing to post this based on the support for the notability of the event, however none of the potential target articles has a sufficient update. If someone could do so, we could get this up on the main page. --Jayron3219:15, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Eh, I'm not sure how perpetual the conflict will eventually be and if there are articles constantly being updated. Also, I'm not sure how feasible 2 stickies are, so we'd also need to decide if the Syria sticky still should be there or not. SpencerT♦C01:07, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Wait - This is still speculation at the moment. Wait for the evening to see if this is what she actually announces. --LukeSurltc16:46, 28 January 2013 (UTC) (this comment is now out-of-date)[reply]
Wait - This appears just to be a rumour so far. Obviously support if the announcement is an abdication.(see below) Do not assume that the new king, if there is one, will use his given name as a regnal name. It's likely, but not certain. AlexTiefling (talk) 16:55, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ok we wait. Please note however that the Dutch Prime Minister will have a television address to the Nation right after the Queen's so this speech by the Queen is probably about a most unusual matter. Hektor (talk) 17:17, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I think the speculation is probably correct. Abdication is something a family tradition with the Dutch royal family. But I wished to warn against pre-announcing anything ourselves. AlexTiefling (talk) 17:20, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Here's a thing that might be worth discussing now: what if she announces her abdication at a future date? Would we post now or wait until the official changeover? I'd be inclined to do the former (and maybe post again at the changeover if it's weeks or months away). --LukeSurltc17:40, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
My inclination would be to wait until the actual abdication date if it's not in the next few days. Given how rarely heads of state change in most monarchies, I expect we'll be posting any subsequent coronation as well, and three announcements for one event is probably overkill. AlexTiefling (talk) 17:50, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
My proposal would be to have one posting for the abdication announcement (i.e. now), and one posting for the coronation or oath of the new King. The first posting would highlight the former Queen, and the second one the new King. Hektor (talk) 17:59, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support Hektor's reasoning. Change of head of state is clearly a highly significant event. I also support Medeis' excellent suggestion of Queen Beatrix as FA on Queen's Day, rather than repeating the ITN item then. AlexTiefling (talk) 19:22, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Note: Without regard to consensus to post, the update, as of now, is a bit light. Could someone expand this before it gets posted? There's only 1 sentence of text in the "Abdication" section. Surely there's some commentary that can be cited or other reactions to the announcement to beef this up to the 5 sentences necessary? What about the rationale for her abdication? Something should be added to bring this up to minimum standards before we post it. --Jayron3219:49, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support my alt blurb. Our (unfortunate) habit of using the historic present would otherwise imply that she has now stepped down. I suspect Charles will be propping up copies of the Dutch papers against his mother's cereal bowl in the morning. Kevin McE (talk) 20:15, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Update: I've updated the section a bit with some info from my usual suite of major news outlets. It looks like most are running the same facts (probably using the same wire source), there's not been enough time for 'reaction' stories to be written. Someone who can read Dutch news could probably add more, but I think, with Kevin's altblurb, it's sufficient to go now. --LukeSurltc20:21, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Question - A minor thing, really, but should "30 April" be changed to "April 30"? That would make the date format consistent with the formatting in the OTD section. How does date formatting/ENGVAR usually work on the main page, anyways? --Bongwarrior (talk) 22:08, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support the addition of the topic, we've got work to do. First, wouldn't the launch be notable so an article should be created on it? If so, we should create that and use it in the blurb. I suppose sends a monkey to space would be the best option, but that article needs a lot of work. My impression from the article was that they are launching the same rocket like, which seems unlikely. RyanVesey15:55, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure if there is enough new information entering the encylopedia as a result of this news story to merit an ITN item. Reading the news stories apparentely it's a charismatic move, but of little technical significance. --LukeSurltc16:01, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
On cosideration oppose. While it may be the first Iranian monkey, gloabally speaking, sending a monkey into space isn't that new or significant, and this'll be just a snippet in the Animals in space article (if that). Technically speaking, while charismatic, this doesn't represent is not a particuarly significant technical development for the Iranian space agency, and thus the update to Iranian Space Agency is going to be slender (currently it stands at two sentences). All-in-all there has not been a sizeable enoiugh update to the content of the encylopedia as a result of this news story to merit an ITN posting. --LukeSurltc17:46, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Update? I see it phrased in future tense under "animals in space", unless there is a different section I should be looking at? --IP98 (talk) 16:40, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Hahahahaha, for the love of all things holy underneath the eyes of God, we can't be serious? Really? This is not for the front page of Wikipedia, never mind actual newspapers. Simply not serious, important, notable, or credible a story. Utterly laughable that it's been suggested here, beyond a joke. Of course I oppose this - I'd be a clown wearing high-heels if I didn't oppose. doktorbwordsdeeds16:44, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I do have an argument. This is a comical novelty story of no importance. I can't begin to believe why we're even considering it. ITN is not here to publicise these kinds of self-generated "punchlines", (see our rightful objection to Occupy). ITN is not a news aggregator. It's certainly not Buzzfeed. This must be the best laugh I've had all year doktorbwordsdeeds17:25, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You miss my point. I don't support this posting myself. But by opposing it with a witty set of ripostes instead of a measured argument, you make it less likely that the admin will take your point seriously. Even a much wittier reply than yours still comes off as 'I don't like it' if there isn't some useful substance there. AlexTiefling (talk) 17:27, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I can't see any reason why my initial reason would be considered invalid. We consider whether stories are serious, important, notable or credible. This story is not serious, important, notable or credible. If I have to find whichever hundred or so policies are linked to those four things, I'd happily source them doktorbwordsdeeds17:42, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose. Calling this valid nomination "not serious" or "credible" is a bit of a stretch, but I would question how significant a milestone it is. 331dot (talk) 16:52, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose - the "sufficient" update to the article looks like two short sentences, is that a "sufficient" update? Also, do we actually have independent evidence that this monkey did actually return alive and wasn't burnt to a crisp on re-entry or do we just take Iran's word for it, since clearly they wouldn't make anything like a successful "manned" space voyage up, would they? The Rambling Man (talk) 17:47, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Despite a little sparring with Doktorbuk and Rambling Man upthread, I'm actually dead against this nomination. Sending helpless research animals into space is not the cutting edge of technology these days, and the fact that it's Iran that's done it, on the gazillionth attempt, doesn't seem to add a great deal to the significance. While national firsts can be significant, they aren't intrinsically so. Sending people into space (and getting them back alive) is a rather more significant achievement, and we should perhaps reserve national (and corporate) milestone announcements for such events. AlexTiefling (talk) 17:56, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm honestly sorry for having been snippy. No-one dies if we mess up here. I should take myself less seriously. Thank you both for being good-humoured. AlexTiefling (talk) 19:17, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
We now believe what the Iranian authorities tell us as part of their propaganda machine? So if North Korea reported that they had done the same, you'd just accept it? What does that even mean? The Rambling Man (talk) 21:51, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not going to derail the thread debating with you on the authenticity of the statements of the government of Iran. Is there, or is there not, a requirement for stores to get "independent verification"? The story has been reported in the Guardian and Al-Jazeera. It's a simple yes or no. Does the requirement exist? Yes or no. Kindly answer with a simple yes or no. --IP98 (talk) 22:05, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No requirement, but the blurb would therefore have to be changed to "...is claimed to have successfully sent...", because that's what the sources say. You could -- as Rambling Man here is doing -- therefore argue that the notability rests entirely on whether or not it actually did happen, which would require independent verification. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk)22:22, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support - per LightGreenApple. News sources are just that, sources, and this is In the News. I also agree with those noting that the recovery is significant. Jusdafax06:02, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral, more opposePoopy Joe: We will always remember. This is one of those "Oh, that's cool" stories, but not really all that significant enough unless it was the first time an animal other than a dog has been in space, so if I'm wrong or if he did some kind of dance or significant scientific achievement while up there, I may switch to support. This would be a nice DYK hook. -- Anc516 (Talk ▪ Contribs) 12:39, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
At least twenty members of the Afghan National Police have been killed in bomb attacks over the past day with eight police officers killed in the latest attack in Kandahar. (Reuters)
Article needs updating Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Yes, but he was listed as a consultant for the documentary, not its writer or creator. Frankly, this and Pham Duy should be posted, since each is more notable than the blank space. Especially Duy's nomination where his primacy in VN music is undenied. μηδείς (talk) 21:03, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Don't get your knickers in a bunch, there is no such thing as absolute notability--it has always been a matter of the relevant relative application of the standards. If the standards were absolute the calculation would be a mechanical formula, no editors needed. μηδείς (talk) 21:40, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If you can't reply with civility, Wikipedia is not the place for you. 22:04, 28 January 2013 (UTC) I evidently missed with my fourth stab at the tilde key last night, (Kevin McE)
There are quite a lot of Pulitzer prizes given out every year, far more than (for instance) Nobel Prizes, and they're only for work done in the United States. Making no comment on this particular individual, a Pulitzer prize does not, by itself, satisfy DC #2. --LukeSurltc23:05, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Unready I have changed my vote to support, but this article is not updated by five lines of prose, or even two. It won't be posted, regardless of support, if it's not updated. μηδείς (talk) 23:15, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Many listings on ITN/R are clearly becoming less and less relevant. This is simply not in the news anywhere I visit, can you point me to major news outlets covering this please? The Rambling Man (talk) 18:06, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support re: notability. Almost all sport, and indeed most human activity (apart from death and taxes), is "niche" by some standard or other. I like that ITN occasionally links to mid-level "niche" encyclopaedia articles, as long as they're in good shape and we're not being ridiculous with the obscurity. Handball isn't that obscure - not that popular in the English-speaking world, but has a sizeable following in Central Europe and Scandinavia. Also an Olympic sport and this is the premier non-Olympic title in the sport. Article is lacking in prose at the moment however. --LukeSurltc18:32, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sadly, whether an individual editor "likes" something or not is entirely irrelevant. It's not "in the news", it's just ITN/R which clearly is not really on the money. Please, show me major news outlets covering this right now, i.e. show me where this is "in the news" for English Wikipedia readers to be interested in its inclusion in the ITN section of the main page? The Rambling Man (talk) 18:52, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Here's one, pretty easy to find even with my limited German Der Spiegel. [6] As I said, Team Handball is really a Central-Eurpopean & Scandinavian thing, however one of our roles here is to attempt to compensate for the impact of language and cultural barriers. --LukeSurltc19:24, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I can see that, but it's like fifth level of Der Spiegel's website, not exactly prominent or "in the news", just being reported, just like Leigh Griffiths' shop-lifting accusations in Glasgow are being reported on the BBC website (and currently on the BBC news homepage....) The Rambling Man (talk) 19:30, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Quite so. And "newsworthiness" aside, the article has virtually no prose at all, it's just a list of results and tables. We held off on posting the Brazil nightclub fire which killed a couple of hundred people because it only had a few sentences of prose. It had more than this article currently contains.... The Rambling Man (talk) 19:09, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The whole notion of ITNR as a free pass is problematic, and if this were a major news item surely we wo(uld see three major references from at least two countries appended to the template of this nomination. μηδείς (talk) 19:55, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Good work, Spencer. I am still opposed if it amounts to bumping other news at this point, which strikes me as a good deal more notable. μηδείς (talk) 21:34, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support While English-language news may not be featuring the handball championship as highly, Spanish-language and other international news does indeed feature it more prominently. (Searching "balonmano" gives results for Univision, Diario AS, and other mainstream international publications). SpencerT♦C20:12, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn't suggesting that. I was suggesting that the fact we have to delve into minor pages on mainly minor foreign-language websites is indicative of the newsworthiness of this item to our English-reading audience. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:28, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Univision is in no way a "minor foreign-language website". The fact that this is not covered by English-language media is a reflection that handball isn't an American or Commonwealth cultural sport (like cricket) as well as an example of systemic bias. SpencerT♦C23:14, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
But it's not "in the news" is it? When Superbowl completes, despite the fact it's US-only, it really is in the news. Globally. Whether we like it or not. Unlike this minor sport and minor tournament, simply not in the news in the English-speaking world. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:44, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
When Super Bowl concludes it's only "in the news" in the US media and very few others. We will see shortly if any prominent German, French, Russian, Spanish, or Italian medium informs about it. Your statement that handball is a niche sport with no coverage in the English-speaking world is worthless since most of the Russian, German, French, Spanish, and other-language media publish their news articles in English as well. Please don't tell me that the news must come from a medium based in a country where English is official language to be understood by an English speaker.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 21:05, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, so show me these major news outlets in English-language covering this event on the main sports page, or else it's not actually "in the news" is it? As for Superbowl being "in the US media and very few others", you know that's a complete lie, so you undermine your entire statement with that alone. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:16, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Assume good faith. Accusing people of lying is inappropriate and unhelpful. You are not going to get anywhere be adopting a confrontational and aggressive attitude. Neljack (talk) 21:28, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, you want something that isn't in the news to be in our "in the news" section? Just goes to show how much work this section of the main page needs.... The Rambling Man (talk) 21:16, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The article is updated with sufficient amount of prose to document the final. For those, especially The Rambling Man, complaining that this is a niche sport with no coverage anywhere, we have the ITN/R where you can demand its removal from the list and contest its ITN worthiness with all the arguments you have. There is simply no need to see someone persistently uttering the same argument to everyone who supports this.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 21:23, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
ITN/R is a joke, as is demonstrated time and time again. We can't rely on those lazy "supports per ITN/R" any more. I'm not demanding its removal from ITN, I'm suggesting it's not worth being on ITN for any good reason, neither for some arbitrary ruling (ITN/R) nor its quality. No-one has adequately demonstrated that this is actually "in the news" apart from a few niche foreign-language websites. It's not suitable for English Wikipedia's main page by any means. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:26, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"I don't like it" is not a valid argument for ignoring policy, as you should know. If you don't like the policy that an ITR/R event automatically meets the notability criterion, then start a discussion at ITN/R about whether it should be changed. Judging by the number of people who complain about it here, if you actually did something about it at ITN/R you might well succeed. Neljack (talk) 21:35, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support Not only is it ITN/R, I think it clearly meets the notability criterion in any case. Handball is a major sport; just because it isn't where most editors live, that doesn't mean we should ignore that. Neljack (talk) 21:38, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That's just untrue: it is in the news. Those of us who support the nomination have pointed you to various stories, but you dismiss them all seemingly because of your rather idiosyncratic views on which news sources count. Neljack (talk) 21:54, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I mean really "in the news". Look above, I gave an example of a Scottish footballer who is "in the news" on the BBC homepage for shoplifting. Neither you nor anyone else here has really provided any evidence of this being covered in any real sense outside minor pages on minor websites. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:56, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Pretty lame to try marking your own nomination as "ready". Let someone else determine that given it's abundantly clear there's no reason for something that's "not in the news" to be listed as being "in the news". The Rambling Man (talk) 21:54, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support. My understanding is that team handball is fairly popular in much of continental Europe--generally about a second, third or forth most popular team sport. That seems comparable to a sport like rugby (though I suppose Rugby is in fact the most popular sport in a handful of countries). I certainly think this should be the only time we feature handball. It certainly is true that among English speakers handball is a not viewed as spectator sport.--Johnsemlak (talk) 22:04, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Posted The update is sufficient and this is on ITN/R. If there is an issue with this event's listing there, get it removed from there first. -- tariqabjotu01:42, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
One or both nominated events are listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: Standard ITN/R item. Despite Azarenka's win happening just minutes ago, the basic information has already been added to the relevant articles by keen editors. Just need the prose updates, which is usually quotes from post-match interviews etc. --LukeSurltc11:35, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support per ITN/R. I also suggest to use the precedent and post the conclusion of the women's tournament immediately, and only update the blurb with the conclusion of the men's tournament tomorrow.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 18:41, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose clearly internationally significant and newsworthy but as Lugnuts notes, the article needs some really serious work. Someone's gone ape with flag icons and bold text. We shouldn't simply "support" items because they're listed in "ITN/R". The Rambling Man (talk) 18:09, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
What do you mean? Nothing is more useful that a row of mindless "support, notable"'s on an ITN/R article, from people who haven't even looked at the article state! </sarcasm> Thue (talk) 18:31, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support, once cleaned up a little. Also, I believe Djokovic is the first man in the Open Era to threepeat. That might be worth a mention in the blurb. Resolute20:00, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for now once the article has been cleaned up as per Lugnuts and Rambling Man also someone needs to read up on WP:OVERLINK, then come back and I will support, I also agree with Resolute with a change to the blurb. LightGreenAppletalk to me21:46, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Update: I've added prose for all the finals played on the Saturday and Sunday. Personally I don't think the overlink banner is needed or article is too linked to preclude posting. There's a lot of linking to players' articles, but that's pretty unavoidable given the nature of the article. --LukeSurltc22:04, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That sounds worse that it is in practice. Most of that is names in tables, which looks perfectly fine - indeed if "only first entries" were wikilinked the tables would look patchy and messy. Otherwise players are linked the first time they are mentioned in each day's section, which is unusual but suited to the way people are likely to read the article, by jumping down to the day they are interested in rather than reading from start to finish. --LukeSurltc23:44, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it does sound worse than it is, try reading the prose on any of the days and you eyes get distracted by all the blue links, if it is going to be linked to from the main page it does need to have the duplicate links reduced, for example Novak Djokovic played 7 matches for an average of over 3 links per match. LightGreenAppletalk to me00:15, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I guess we remove all the wikilinks from the day-by-day prose. I'm afraid I'm off to work now, so I'll have to leave that to someone else. LukeSurltc08:43, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Previewing changes for a section, I really think we make the article worse, not better, by removing these links. Can we get a third opinion on this please? --LukeSurltc19:29, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Posting. Removed lots of excess prose links except in their first occurrence, but left the ones that appeared in separate tables/charts as suggested by WP:OVERLINK. Otherwise, the article is updated. SpencerT♦C05:34, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support (when the article is sufficiently expanded). This is eerily similar to The Station nightclub fire, but with a far higher death toll. I was unable to find a list of the deadliest nightclub fires worldwide, but it appears that few have claimed this many lives, particularly in recent years. —David Levy13:22, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support, but strongly prefer original blurb (and article name): the name of the (former) nightclub is not to the forefront of the reporting. Kevin McE (talk) 15:58, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support notability re: all above. Article meets minimum standards at the current time, best not to over-expand while story is still breaking. LukeSurltc16:12, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
CommentSupportI'd like to support but a) international coverage is currently lacking and b) the article is in fairly poor shape, several unreferenced paragraphs. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:18, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Here's the first (of many, I'm sure) English-language coverage of his death. Considering that the LA Times covered his son's death last month, I wouldn't be surprised if they cover his death on Monday. As for "international", so far we've had coverage from Voice of America, Radio France Internationale, BBC, and Radio Free Asia, admittedly all in Vietnamese, but I'm sure given some time they will trickle over to English. DHN (talk) 00:36, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Those of us who are not familiar with the genre, which will be the vast majority of readers and editors, will need a lot more evidence before we could consider supporting. Writing 1000 songs that are short, forgettable and make no impact on anyone is not a great achievement. Has he won major recognition? Are his songs verifiably among the best selling of their genre? Are their multiple works that discuss his importance in the culture? Was there any official response to his works when they were de-banned in 2005? Can only oppose until we are given grounds to do anything else. Kevin McE (talk) 10:19, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Admittedly he is not well-known outside of Vietnam, but within the field of Vietnamese music, he is a towering figure (alongside with Van Cao and Trinh Cong Son) in terms of influence and popularity. He is a household name throughout Vietnam. Within an hour of his death, virtually all major Vietnamese-language news sources had updated to put news of his death on their front page. DHN (talk) 10:25, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That's sadly not going to convince many about his importance (don't forget the squabbles when people they are familiar with come up...) I doubt if Chrisye's death had been in the past month an RD would have had support, and he may be of comparable standing (in Indonesia). — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:27, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose. Much like Crisco 1492, I would like to support this, but I'm not convinced Vietnamese music is a broad enough field to post notable figures from. If it was music in general, maybe. 331dot (talk) 11:46, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
He is not just an important figure in Vietnamese music, but an important figure in Vietnamese society, period. You can see this by looking at any Vietnamese-language news source now, almost 2 days after he died, it's still front-page news (they've moved on to people's reactions, tributes, and details of his funeral). DHN (talk) 00:15, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support A top artists in one of the world's largest countries (larger population than any in Europe save Russia) with articles in 12 languages. The article needs an update and is still in the present tense, however. μηδείς (talk) 18:55, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You may want to look under the Please do not section above where it says "Do not complain about an event only relating to a single country, or failing to relate to one. This applies to a high percentage of the content we post and is unproductive." μηδείς (talk) 22:33, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support- Considering we post top musicians in smaller countries like the UK, his death should certainly be enough for RD, and I would argue maybe a full blurb as well. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 22:19, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose No evidence of even the smallest level of international significance. None of the songs mentioned in his article have their own articles.RyanVesey22:37, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Lack of English-language articles doesn't mean that they're not notable, especially since those who care and know most about his work typically don't know English. In the Vietnamese Wikipedia there's an entire category for his works. DHN (talk) 23:32, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I never suggested that they're not notable, I suggested that he's insignificant to those reading this encyclopedia. If he was significant, someone would have written the articles. RyanVesey23:56, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Updated The article now reflectes the past tense and meets the five-sentence update requirement. I call on an admin to use discretion and consider posting this. The nominee clearly meets the requirement that he be at the top of his field: "He is considered one of the great musicians of the new musical VN with a massive number of tracks as well as diverse genres..."[17] The opposes above ("I haven't heard of him", "not notable outside one country") are clearly in violation of the guidelines. μηδείς (talk) 23:20, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Where has it been established that he meets any of the criteria for including deaths? Where is the consensus that people are satisfied that he meets them? Kevin McE (talk) 00:01, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Who has said "I haven't heard of him" or "not notable outside one country"? I'm not seeing either of those quoted phrases in any of the opposes. --Bongwarrior (talk) 23:59, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"he's insignificant to those reading this encyclopedia" looks suspiciously like "nobody speaking English has heard of him", which is decidedly Anglocentric. One need not speak / read English to be highly significant within one's country. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:22, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose the fact that all of the sources provided are in Vietnamese, including the BBC article, suggests a lack of importance to the English speaking world. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:31, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Do I have to mention yet again that this is Wikipedia in English, not Anglophonopedia? The fact that the sufficient, reliable sources are in Vietnamese is no obstacle to their relevance. AlexTiefling (talk) 10:16, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Our death criteria are very clear. This has no international impact, and this was not an outstanding musician. Ergo, no post.--WaltCip (talk) 16:30, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
FWIW, ITN/DC also states that "The deceased was in a high-ranking office of power at the time of death and/or had a significant contribution/impact on the country/region," which he does pass the second part of the criteria. If one of the criteria was met, it can be considered. –HTD16:33, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
With sources like this proclaiming him to be "the most important Vietnamese musician of the 20th century" and numerous sources proclaiming to be "one of three most influential", your claim that he was "not an outstanding musician" sounds trollish to me. His death received international coverage, as shown through The LA Times, VOA, BBC, RFI, and Radio Free Asia. DHN (talk) 17:09, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support: Article seems to suggest a fairly important individual in his field. Decent article quality as well. Can't see what we lose by not posting to the ticker, it's not like we're pushing another entry off. Simple question: is the main page better or worse for linking to this article? Sure, for cultural and language reasons, 99% of people are going to think "eh, who's that?", but then they can click the link and read a decent encylopeadia article, showcasing Wikipedia's ability to cover topics from all countries, languages and cultures. Or we could just have some white space.
The nomination meets or exceeds all criteria. It's updated, sourced, well-written; Duy meets the best in his field criteria. We don't even have a pending discussion on removing Vietnam from ITN because it's so foreign. An admin should use reasonable judgment and post this. μηδείς (talk) 21:48, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ready Not sure why this was re-marked not updated after it was. Marking ready given changes of votes from oppose to support and no opposition based on invalid reasons per guidelines.
Are you claiming that the deceased was NOT "widely regarded as a very important figure in his or her field", or that the field of Vietnamese music is not significant enough? If it's the former, you obviously haven't read the article. DHN (talk) 22:05, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
LOL this should be overridden if someone says "support" per ITN/DC #1-B. Which I will. Support per ITN/DC #1-B. –HTD04:47, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
LOL this should be overridden if someone says "in what way did he have a significant impact on the region", which I will. --IP98 (talk) 14:19, 29 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
LMAO the death section has 4 references, and the LA Times calls him "Vietnam's most prolific songwriter", "captured the strength of his people through years of turbulence" isn't enough to demonstrate his lasting influence? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL –HTD04:10, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment looking at some other large wikis, it's in the huge recent deaths section of es, but is not on fr, de, nl or ru. As best as I can tell, it.wikipedia.org doesn't have an ITN section. Looking at other wikis in the region, it's on vi.wikipedia.org (obviously), but id.wikipedia.org and ms.wikipedia.org do not have it. *shrugs*. FYI only. --IP98 (talk) 22:03, 30 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think this applies for most deaths that we post in the ticker (not full blurb). Dennis O'Driscoll, whom you supported for RD, didn't even have an article in any other language besides English. DHN (talk) 04:01, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: the article's traffic over the past several days jumped from virtually nothing to more than 1000 per day without even being on the front page. The Vietnamese article peaked at about 11k per day. DHN (talk) 07:41, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support: I can't actually think of a single more famous living Vietnamese person, actors, film directors, writers, politicians included. @User:IP98 I realise that a songwriter makes more difficult cultural transit than a novelist (who can be translated) but Pham Duy can't pass notability for "in the News" then there probably needs to be a note "non-English-language musical artists can never be candidates for in the news, even if they are the most famous there is their country" and that would save wasting time with nominations. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:50, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Thought I'd posted this earlier. Kpalion has it right: large nation, large diaspora, large creative field. Overall effect: large. Can we post this now, please? AlexTiefling (talk) 14:16, 31 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Middlesbrough survive a late scare to progress at the expense of Aldershot Town; the match finishes 2–1, with all three goals occurring in the final ten minutes of the match. (BBC)
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: First openly-gay leader of a Canadian province, and of Canada's largest province with a population of over 10 million. --Nbpolitico (talk) 02:01, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose "First gay"... is getting kind of old. When she's elected Canadian Premiere we'll list her regardless of her love interests. μηδείς (talk) 02:21, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Subnational elections aren't notable enough for ITN; if this was for Prime Minister of Canada, it would be notable and get posted simply for being PM; being gay would be a bonus(in terms of ITN). 331dot (talk) 02:41, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support – a huge milestone for Canada and Ontario. Not only is she the first gay premier in Canada, she's also the first female premier of Canada's most populated province. —Bloom6132 (talk) 04:00, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
John Kiriakou, the former CIA agent, who publicly discussed the U.S. government agency's use of waterboarding interrogation techniques, is sentenced to 30 months in prison. An argument that he was a whistleblower was dismissed and he was instead convicted of violating an intelligence law, the first person to be successfully targeted under the statute in 27 years. (BBC)
Scuffles occur on the streets of Moscow as supporters and opponents clash over the Russian parliament's attempts to implement anti-gay legislation. If legalised it would result in fines for those who promote events with a gay theme. (AP via ABC)(BBC)(Reuters)
Sport
UEFA announces details of Euro 2020: it is to be held in 13 cities across Europe with no more than one venue per country permitted: the semi-finals and final are to be played in the same stadium and the venues are to be chosen in September next year. (The Guardian)
Weak support Article meets the bare minimum with regards to size, it would be nice to see some expansion if possible, but as this meets minimum standards (per prominent coverage and no major problems with article) I don't see why this couldn't be promoted to MP. --Jayron3217:58, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure what you mean how this meets the bare minimum, which for standalone articles is "three complete, referenced and well-formed paragraphs" as per WP:ITN. The article has the references, but does not have three complete, well-formed paragraphs. SpencerT♦C19:33, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support and Updated. The article is now well updtaed, meeting the three paragraph and five sentences requirement. The event, with over 50 deaths, is quite notable for a developed country. μηδείς (talk) 22:08, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's comments: Somewhat of a minority topic (Tech news and the law), showing up on top tech news sites like ZDnet and tech pages of other major news sources. --Jayron3200:45, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I can't see that there is a difference of principle between this and subpoenas or warrants directed to other internet companies (ISPs, search engines, etc) for information about their users. As story about Google indicates, they are common. Neljack (talk) 06:16, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Just as a point of information, Twitter has no employees or offices in France so it is not entirely clear this can even be enforced. 331dot (talk) 11:42, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose All I am seeing in this is just a regular court issues subpoena to internet company, is there a reason to think that this is Twitter's first such subpoena, I doubt it. LightGreenAppletalk to me10:57, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose From what I've heard, Australian courts have ordered several social networks to perform certain tasks as a result of hearings for years. I don't see how this is any different, and I doubt Facebook will appeal or refuse to provide the information upon request. They've always complied with requests. YuMaNuMaContrib12:45, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's comments: While storm was not extremely "strong" by cyclone standards, it does appear to be causing widespread damage in Australia. --Jayron3200:24, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - The coverage of the cyclone making landfall is not even wide in Australia. There's just been some flooding in and around a few areas with most of the damage cost deriving from crops. YuMaNuMaContrib12:59, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Due to the most recent reports I've changed my vote to neutral. Usually the natural disasters we post involve loss of life in the tens or even hundreds, we shouldn't post events just because it affects a developed nation. YuMaNuMaContrib05:04, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No deaths, and the storm doesn't have its own article, but what we do have describes it as weak. 22:36, 26 January 2013 (UTC)~~
More coverage now, and unfortunately one death has just been reported, and it seems the situation has deteriorated as there was a "statewide catastrophe declaration from the Insurance Council of Australia", see Brisbane Times report: [25]. Some dams ie. Awoonga Dam are apparently at breaking point. - 220ofBorg04:47, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
One death could be the result of a small thunderstorm or a passing fog. Unfortunately the Awoonga lake article is written from a solely Australian standpoint, mentioning things like AHD and hectares without conversion or explanation, so as a foreigner I am unable to tell whether the dam's failure would be significant or not. μηδείς (talk) 05:07, 27 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's comments: News over the last several days regarding North Korea's threats against the U.S. and South Korea has been fairly prominent. --Jayron3200:14, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support: Specifically per the North Korean government stating "Sanctions' mean a war and a declaration of war against us." Question, did we post this, when North Korea threatened to destroy South Korea soon? RyanVesey00:20, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - This is a non-event, a pretty empty threat considering North Korea's current nuclear capability, and it doesn't look like anything more than the usual North Korean posturing. --Bongwarrior (talk) 00:52, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The New York Times article states that US intelligence estimates say North Korea might be able to reach Hawaii and has plutonium for 6-10 boms. While it might be a threat that won't be acted upon, it's no longer empty. In addition, this was the first time they explicitly threatened the United States with a nuclear attack (it had previously only been implied. RyanVesey00:59, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
At best, they could possibly hit Hawaii with an empty missile. I don't think they're close to producing a nuclear warhead small enough to be deliverable. --Bongwarrior (talk) 01:15, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. This latest round of rhetoric is nothing new from them; not noteworthy unless there is an actual nuclear test or another missile test. 331dot (talk) 03:14, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's comments: Protests in several cities across Egypt; tens of thousands of people in Tahrir Square, several hundred injured and five dead. C628 (talk) 23:07, 25 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support but protests are basically continual now, [32] with 16 deaths has happened between this nomination and now (I've added some prose to the article). As such I've suggested an altblurb that is less specific about numbers, such that the blurb won't be made out-of-date by future events. LukeSurltc12:01, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Marked as Ready as this seems to have both the support and article quality necessary to make the main page. I've voted, so I am ineligible to promote it myself, but hopefully another admin is watching and will put this up. I also suggest the altblurb as the situation is dynamic and leaving off the numbers seems prudent right now. --Jayron3217:41, 26 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Updated by [[User:Jayron32|Jayron32]] ([[User talk:Jayron32|talk]] ·[{{fullurl:User talk:Jayron32|action=edit&preload=Template:ITN_candidate/preload_credit&preloadtitle=ITN+recognition+for+%5B%5BSenkaku+Islands+dispute%5D%5D§ion=new&preloadparams%5b%5d=Senkaku+Islands+dispute&preloadparams%5b%5d=updated}} give credit])
Article updated
Nominator's comments: The Senkaku Islands dispute has heated up considerably in the past few weeks, and this is just the latest incident in a string of incidents that includes threats by both Japan and China to use military force to enforce their respective claims to the area. --Jayron32 22:11, 24 January 2013 (UTC) --Jayron3222:11, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. I'm not convinced this minor confrontation is enough to get this ongoing dispute on ITN; only water cannons were used and no one was hurt. If there was a more intense confrontation, such as the use of arms to halt a ship or injuries, then I could see this getting posted. 331dot (talk) 22:20, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Water canons are fairly common in this dispute. When reading the blurb I though actual rounds were fired, when that happens, we can post it. RyanVesey00:56, 25 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Only water canons were used so if this to be posted in needs to be rephrased ("engages" in particular) to show only nonlethal force was used. Brightgalrs (/braɪtˈɡæl.ərˌɛs/)[1]20:28, 25 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
David Headley sentenced for his role in the 2008 Mumbai attacks
Updated by [[User:Jayron32|Jayron32]] ([[User talk:Jayron32|talk]] ·[{{fullurl:User talk:Jayron32|action=edit&preload=Template:ITN_candidate/preload_credit&preloadtitle=ITN+recognition+for+%5B%5BDavid+Headley%5D%5D§ion=new&preloadparams%5b%5d=David+Headley&preloadparams%5b%5d=updated}} give credit])
Oppose The verdict is not surprising, the principal is not that notable and certainly not at the top of his field. Hate to oppose two noms in a row by the same person, but this is just not incredible news with a high reader interest in a great article. μηδείς (talk) 20:08, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. From what I gather, this individual was not the mastermind of the attack or otherwise had some sort of leadership role; he seemed to be more of a functionary figure who just scouted things out. As Doktorbuk said, essentially this is just an afterthought. 331dot (talk) 22:09, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As I'm discussing over on WT:ITN, posting this story would be far preferable to leaving ITN un-updated (it's been four days since an update). However the arguments above are fully in line with our standard practices here. I think this shows that are current practices are in need of serious revision. LukeSurltc22:54, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Stories should be posted because there is a consensus that they are notable; they shouldn't just be posted for the sake of posting one. 331dot (talk) 23:31, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If we are in a hurry for an update, the Israeli Election article has been abundantly updated and is an ITNR item. But perhaps letting it age is the better course? μηδείς (talk) 00:06, 25 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This is a policy issue, not a legal development, and not one that lends itself to featuring a relevant good article readers are looking for, which is the point of ITN. μηδείς (talk) 04:36, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not strictly opposed to the idea per se, this seems like a newsworthy event to me, but any relevant articles, either women in combat or women in the military by country are in pretty rough shape, and by the time they were cleaned up to anything of the standard we usually post here, it wouldn't be timely news anymore. --Jayron3204:43, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. As said by others above, this is just a government policy change; if it was Congress passing a law directing such a change, that might be noteworthy enough, but this is just DOD Secretary Panetta starting a policy change(which will take time to go into effect) that a future POTUS and Secretary could change back. Also no article nominated. 331dot (talk) 11:11, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per LittleGreenApple. There is simply no major impact beyond this story. It sounds interesting and amusing indeed, but definitely not a news that bears much notability at all.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 13:11, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose As far as I understood, this is mostly a technicality as women have been allowed to serve even before. And anyway, there is nothing revolutionary about women in military. Cf. Israel Defense Forces, for example. --hydrox (talk) 14:59, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Three of the largest managers of U.S.-based money market funds announce a change of policy toward greater transparency – they will give daily rather than monthly data on fund assets. (Reuters)
A court in Thailand sentences a magazine editor to ten years' imprisonment for publishing articles that were deemed to have insulted the monarchy. (BBC)
The United States Armed Forces overturns its ban on women serving in combat, reversing a 1994 rule, and potentially clearing the way for women to serve in front-line units and elite commando forces. (BBC)(USA Today)
European champions Chelsea are defeated by Swansea City after a 0–0 draw in the second semifinal match; the game is marred by an incident involving Chelsea midfielder Eden Hazard, who is sent off after violently kicking a ball boy in the midriff during the game. (The Guardian)(BBC Sport)(Sky News)
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Surprised this wasn't already suggested. Prominent IRA member (Old Bailey bombing, high-profile hunger strike while in prison), key figure in the international dispute about Boston College's oral history of the Troubles (so I'm sure a few of the Americans will have heard the name). GRAPPLEX17:03, 28 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's comments: Published in Nature yesterday, reported in WSJ today. Science and technology are an underrepresented topic for ITN, interesting cross-disciplinary topic. --Jayron3219:30, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose no doubt this report belongs to Nature, but I really don't see the actual potential for actually being relevant to the public since DNA is a very un-atom-economical way to store information. Plus, a book has been encoded as DNA before. Nergaal (talk) 19:48, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose this is somewhat interesting ("Oh, neat") from a science point of view, but has long been discussed and the actual achievement, rather than being a huge practical advance, is instead rather academic. μηδείς (talk) 20:05, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. This isn't a new discovery, simply a different use of one; DNA has been encoded for other purposes before(such as a book). 331dot (talk) 22:12, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Nominator's comments: Cardinal Glemp served as Primate of the Catholic Church in Poland for 23 28 years, including the turbulent times of Solidarity, martial law, and transition to democracy and market economy. He was one of the most influential clergymen in a country where the Catholic Church is still a powerful force. --— Kpalion(talk)23:21, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support as the fourth most notable Pole of the 80's (behind Walesa, the Pope and the tyrant Jaruzelski--politically, if not morally) for those not too young to remember him. One of the last important Cold War figures. μηδείς (talk) 00:43, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose "Promising" a referendum is way too far away from a referendum passing. If we post this, we'd be posting the approval of the referendum as it heads to voters too. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:57, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Promising the referendum is the news event here. It is significant enough by itself, as evidienced by the news coverage of just the promise of one. --RA (talk) 22:21, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The blurb doesn't say the UK has left. Or that there is a referendum act. Or that discussions with the EU have taken place. It says that David Cameron has promised a referendum on UK withdrawal from the EU. To quote the WSJ above:
"U.K. Prime Minister David Cameron Wednesday pledged to hold a referendum on whether the country should remain a member of the European Union within 2½ years of the next general election, which is due in 2015."
How? Why? It will take a year, at least, before we know what (if anything) he will ask the EU to repatriate. It will take until 2015 to know if he is still Prime Minister. Most of your reasoning falls foul of CRYSTAL doktorbwordsdeeds23:40, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Huge news in the UK, but nothing has actually happened yet. ITN will (would?) certainly post the referendum itself. So far Cameron has simply announced his intention to fight the next election on a manifesto which includes a promise of a referendum. That's a long way off; it may well (hopefully imo) never happen. Modest Geniustalk00:06, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. ITN shouldn't be covering campaign promises. The actual referendum itself, should it come to pass, would be a good fit, however. Resolute00:25, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Not even government policy, as the PM's coalition partners are against this move. This is just a manifesto pledge for a far-off election. AlexTiefling (talk) 00:34, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support The Prime Minister of the UK promising a referendum on withdrawal from the EU is huge news, and a major development from the status quo. 87.63.85.30 (talk) 09:03, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Honestly, I have a really hard time seeing this being actualised and as per above, this should only be posted when it it actually happens. Also, I suggest someone change the title of the nomination, at the moment it's extremely misleading. YuMaNuMaContrib12:51, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Irish politicians respond to High Court Judge Paul Carney's order that a man who plead guilty in court to repeatedly raping his daughter as a child be granted bail and provisional released. TaoiseachEnda Kenny comments on a nation "filled with revulsion" at the outcome of the case, while opposition politician Gerry Adams refers to abuse his father inflicted on others. (BBC)(Irish Independent)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Oppose The article is a mess. It needs to be restructured before it can be linked on the main page. In particular, the various section sub-headers should be removed and the content phased into a broader section.--WaltCip (talk) 21:50, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The nominated event is listed on WP:ITN/R, so each occurrence is presumed to be important enough to post. Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article and update meet WP:ITNCRIT, not the significance.
Nominator's comments: polls close in 11 hours and results will trickle in soon. Im just working on adding some stuff there (here was a citations tag on the page though, once that gets done an update with reactions can make this ready) Lihaas (talk) 08:13, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Not ready, for the simple reason that the results haven't been announced yet, let alone incorporated into the article. They're due to come out on Wednesday. Modest Geniustalk23:57, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Technically the article is ready, and it would be nice for us once to have a link up for something before it is 36 hours old. We've got consensus that Netanyahu's current coalition has won. Given the uncontested results, the staleness of the current listings, the fact that the article is technically updated, and the lack of necessity to wait for ever single statistic to be confirmed, we don't need to lag on this. μηδείς (talk) 01:38, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Of course it's not ready. We don't know who won yet. The page says estimates are based on exit polls. There are no officially reported resultss. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:40, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Well, again, technically, the article is ready when it has been updated, which it has been as of the nomination. I am sure you understand that point. My real underlying concern is that we have an admin post this as soon as we get a one-sentence update that the Netanyahu coalition has officially won. Not a day's delay due to lack of attention, or waiting for even more of an update than just the declaration of a winner. We shouldn't be waiting on the filling in of statistics before we post this. μηδείς (talk) 01:47, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support posting now - I heard the results announced yesterday on the radio. The article appears updated enough for a blurb to be posted. Do it now, please. Jusdafax09:45, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The finance ministers of the European Union are ready to give their needed approval to those countries within the EU that want to establish a Tobin tax, that is, a tax in financial transactions. (Reuters)
In Brazil, a helicopter crashes in São Paulo's north zone, leaving one pilot dead and four more people injured. (IG News)
Five people are killed in an explosion at a healer's home in Chitungwiza, Zimbabwe, causing hundreds to flee and nearby building damage. (Reuters via IOL)
An Irishman, who pleads guilty in court to repeatedly raping his daughter as a child, is released on bail with a suspended sentence. His daughter, who says she was raped "as frequently as having dinner", is said to be devastated. (Irish Independent)(Irish Examiner)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Weak Oppose, his significance in his field doesn't appear to be quite up to scratch for RD. Still, a colorful character nonetheless (By the way, he passed away on the 21st).--Kawaii-Soft (talk) 13:30, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. A 'colourful character' isn't really enough. No BAFTAs, no Academy Awards. I would say that Death Wish was a somewhat notable film but otherwise not particularly a notable career.--Johnsemlak (talk) 14:24, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I wonder whether that's really the right yardstick to apply, though. It seems a bit like assessing Jeremy Clarkson as just a motoring journalist, or Don King as just a boxing promoter. Winner is not some long-ago great that nobody's really thought about for years. His real talent, rather than his film directing, was in creating a larger-than-life persona and keeping it in the public eye really right up until a fortnight before he died. That's why he is being remembered so widely, and what the Sunday Times thought it was worth paying a fortune for his columns for. Jheald (talk) 15:27, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Not to be snarky, and with no disrespect toward you or your nomination, but using that yardstick, we'd include Gilbert Gottfried, Snooki, and Carrot Top in RD. The questions are notability and impact, and the answers are that he didn't have enough of them. Oppose -- Mike(Kicking222)17:28, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Having an effective PR team is not one of our death criteria. Not among the most important film directors (or food critics, or insurance salesmen) of his generation. Kevin McE (talk) 18:43, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Was not a leading figure in cinema; to a large extent his contemporary fame rests upon a catch phrase in a series of TV adverts. Not significant enough in my opinion. Modest Geniustalk21:55, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Given his standing in his field (one real movie of note) he hardly compares to dear abby. Can't speak for TV adverts, maybe someone could give a youtube link? μηδείς (talk) 22:44, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - His TV adverts are hardly sufficient claim to fame on their own. His movies, while noteworthy, do not make him a leader in his field. He was quite a polymath, but not so outstandingly so that I think we need to include him here. AlexTiefling (talk) 23:27, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support for ticker Has a varied and well regarded back catalogue, very well regarded career as (an often utterly self-obsessed) restaurant critic, and is a cultural touchstone for many doktorbwordsdeeds14:54, 24 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Could you clarify more specifically what changes you are recommending? (Also, the item is already at the top of ITN, so I don't know what you mean by "bump"). SpencerT♦C02:34, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Reactions elicited and th e Algerian govt has announced the end of operations with some 23-odd hostages dead (foreign). Key being the operations ver (and similarly to the ]]26/11]] incident)Lihaas (talk) 01:33, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Unless there are demonstrations internationally that are notable in themselves, we don't generally post public reactions to events that occur, only the events themselves. SpencerT♦C09:03, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Rather than just saying that somebody else should write a new blurb, writing one so it is ready to post would be much more useful to the posting admin :). Thue (talk) 06:18, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The death toll has risen to at least 48 hostages killed during a four-day siege at a gas plant, raising the number of militants and their captives killed to at least 80. Algerian troops had found the bodies of 25 hostages at the complex on Sunday. (Reuters)(BBC)
Indian Cabinet Committee on Political Affairs on Thursday decided to raise the cap on subsidised liquefied petroleum gas to nine cylinders per household in a year from existing six. (The Hindu)
A NASA spacecraft, Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter, is providing new evidence of a wet underground environment on Mars that adds to an increasingly complex picture of the Red Planet's early evolution. (NASA)
In basketball, the owners of the NBA's Sacramento Kings reportedly reach an agreement to sell a controlling stake in the team to a Seattle-based group, fueling speculation that the team will move to Seattle. (ESPN)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Oppose We knew when he was elected that he'd be sworn in on Jan 20. Bzweebl is right that this wouldn't be considered for any other nation. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:57, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral we don't normally post these, but it is on the front page of bbc.co.uk, and that seems to be a highly important benchmark these days. --IP98 (talk) 19:42, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Neutral on the actual story but it's probably overkill to have the first one on TFA and the second on ITN so quickly. GRAPPLEX19:47, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
support as its all thats in the news regardless are personal opinions. Plus we posted australia's elecion thirce, and canada/uk twice. Obama's actual election was in Dec too.Lihaas (talk) 01:36, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The Algerian army stages a final assault on a gas facility near the town of In Aménas, where militants took an unknown number of foreign workers hostage on January 16. Totally at least 23 hostages and 32 terrorists were killed for the four days of crisis. (BBC)(CNN)(Reuters)
Another 100 flights are cancelled at Europe's busiest airport, Heathrow, with some passengers forced to spend the night sleeping on the terminal floor. (BBC)
Four climbers are killed by an avalanche in Glen Coe in the Scottish Highlands while descending the south side of Bidean nam Bian. A fifth member of the party is airlifted to hospital with serious injuries, while a sixth escapes unharmed. (BBC)
Article:Ahmed Dogan (talk·history·tag) Blurb: An assailant identified as Oktai Enimehmedov attempts to assassinate opposition leader Ahmed Dogan at a party congress. (Post) News source(s):BBC Credits:
Weak support per precedent, the Gabrielle Giffords shooting was posted and she wasn't even the leader of her party in her legislative body as this man is. I'd support it more if he had actually been wounded, but as a matter of fairness it should be posted. 331dot (talk) 12:31, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I've changed my mind to weak oppose. This man seems to have been the only one in danger, unlike the Giffords shooting where many were wounded and others killed. 331dot (talk) 12:36, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Oppose. We don't usually post changes to the organizational structure of political parties. When he's prime minister, we'll deal with it then. --Jayron3206:20, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Very Strong Opposition The incumbent minister of India was not the Vice-President of the INC. The suggestion by the nominator that he is likely to be the Prime Ministerial candidate of the INC or the UPA should be treated as the personal opinion of the nominator. Prime Ministers in India can be definitely defined only after the results of the Union elections are announced and after the alliances are forged. Besides this organizational changes are not considered as ITN candidates.Regards, theTigerKing06:53, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Interesting, but not suitable for ITN as the position is not important enough. The fact that he might be a candidate for PM doesn't make it important enough. If and when he is elected PM, that will get mentioned. 331dot (talk) 10:37, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Pile on Oppose. To be fair, this did make very big news in India, and CNN is running an analysis article on its main page. But even when we step aside from the politics, this is not ITN-worthy by a long shot. MikeLynch (talk) 16:49, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Support update to blurb, universally considered one of the greatest baseball players of all-time, one of the most beloved figures in American sports, front page news on practically every American news website, which is unheard of for any athlete, top story in the New York Times [44], second top story in CNN [45] who named him "one of its greatest, most dignified ambassadors" in baseball five page obituary from the associated press, more reactions should be coming tomorrow, as this news broke during the evening. It is safe to say he was the American sports equivalent to Donald Bradman. Oh and its a FA to boot. Secretaccount06:50, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Instead of updating to a full blurb, what about nominating if for TFA instead? It has not yet appeared on the Main page. --Tone20:04, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Probably agree with Tone, TFA is a better place to go, although it is desirable to feature FA content on ITN. However, I wouldn't quite say Musial is the US equivalent of Donald Bradman. While these apples to oranges comparisons are always complicated, Musial wasn't the very best at his sport, merely one of the very best. (note, I'm a St. Louis Cardinals fan). Among living MLB players the closest equivalent would probably be Willy Mays or Hank Aaron. Also, my feeling is that the RD ticker was created in part to allow figures like Musial who are familiar to only part of the Wikipedia audience to be posted with less fuss; a nomination for a full blurb in the past would have likely resulted in a bitter debate.--Johnsemlak (talk) 02:56, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Oppose I actually considered nominating when I heard the news. In the end I was not convinced he passed ITN/DC #2. 17 years as an MLB manager. Hall of Fame is too inclusive to give every inductee a pass. --IP98 (talk) 01:51, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
An important figure, but not a very important figure. He is far from one of the top 10 most important people in his sport, and that's saying a lot, since a top 10 figure in a comparably popular sport like rugby might not pass RD, though I have no precedent for that. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 02:30, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
17 years, 1 world series, radio show, a book. Basically a run of the mill baseball manager. He wasn't a drugged up loser, but he wasn't very important either. --IP98 (talk) 02:32, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Yeah, a managing career of one World Series win isn't enough really. Unlike Musial above, Weaver isn't one of the all time greats. He did have a good computer game named after him though.--Johnsemlak (talk) 02:45, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Very important manager, one of the great "characters" of the game, still not of the same league as Stan the Man above, who until he died was the greatest living baseball player; and I'm not sure you'd get much debate on that. Weaver was well known, but not "greatest at what he did" territory. --Jayron3206:22, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Weaver was one of the greatest masterminds in regards to pitching, which is the main reason why he was elected to the Hall of Fame relatively fast, otherwise not among the all-time greatest managers, even with those who are still living (Cox, Torre, and a few others). OpposeSecretaccount06:54, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Wikipedia is not an obituary service. Not significant or important enough a person for the front page (as, no doubt, will be the conclusion upon most of us editors when we pass on too) doktorbwordsdeeds07:34, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment It does need work. From reading the lead, I'm not sure what this competition is. I presume some sort of car race, but what kind of car? What's the competition exactly? – Muboshgu (talk) 01:58, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I shouldn't have to click through to a second page just to figure out what the highlighted page is about. The term "rally raid" is still not used in the article anywhere, so I oppose – Muboshgu (talk) 18:16, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose and request to remove from ITN/R No offence, I do not get how this managed to make it into ITN/R ever. I have never seen this ever mentioned in the news, none in the history of the event, if it ever appears, it only get a tiny snippets, literally like college football. Only newsworthy to a small minority of motorsport enthusiasts. Donnie Park (talk) 04:04, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
my nomination is based on what I observed, events that were more deserving that was refused nomination, example the FIFA Club World Cup, which a month ago was heavily opposed, stating that it was insignificant when according an article in the Evening Standard on the 17th December, it stated that it may not be important to people in Europe but it is in South America and ask South Americans and Africans public. Donnie Park (talk) 04:17, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It's a top tier tournament in an international motorsport classification. WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not an argument, nor is WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. We post plenty of football, I'm sorry that we didn't post <<insert your favorite event here>> didn't get posted. --IP98 (talk) 12:43, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Being a top level tournament in one classification of a sport is not a pass to main page prominence. We didn't post Larysa Solovyova retaining her women's -63kg powerlifting title in Aguadilla last year. There is no call for your sarcastic closing comment. Kevin McE (talk) 13:03, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It was a direct response to Donnie Parks remarks. To be clear, I don't care about the Dakar Rally, but it's certainly more broad in scope than "women's -63kg powerlifting". --IP98 (talk) 13:11, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Donnie's comment was that this is not significant enough, not that he didn't like it. I would agree that it is of greater scope than the womens -63kg powerlifting, but your comment was not predicated on scope, but on being top level in a classification of a sport. Kevin McE (talk) 13:40, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
We're way OT here but Donnie specifically linked to the 2012 FIFA Club World Cup as a "prime example". Regarding the tier, in this case it's "rally racing", not, for example "mens age 35-42 closed top 4wd rally raid". --IP98 (talk) 13:49, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
We probably ought to stop, but the top level of competition in rallying is the World Championship. This is only the top level if you chose to focus on one specific sub-category of rallying, the rally raid (power lifting rather than other forms of weightlifting in my example), but then choose to be selective among that subcategory (cars rather than bikes, quads or trucks in your text, -63 kg women in mine). Kevin McE (talk) 14:07, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I would agree with Donnie Park that this event seems to be a niche event that is of interest to a very small number of enthusiasts. I've supported it in the past but I believe it wasn't posted last year, plus the article has several issues.--Johnsemlak (talk) 05:22, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, and oppose the assumption that that the recurrence of the event is generally considered important enough to post on WP:ITN on the basis of many of the above comments.Kevin McE (talk) 13:10, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately, too many insignificant events are, that's the problem. If you go to the talk page, you'll see a link discussing whether to remove Dakar Rally from ITNR doktorbwordsdeeds17:54, 21 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support I am surprised there is opposition to this. I am against ITNR as such, but this race is historically notable and a record has been set. μηδείς (talk) 04:22, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support Premier example of a rally raid, and arguably the most famous race of its kind. It has been posted before, and there is enough information to create a solid article update. SpencerT♦C20:58, 25 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
CommentSupport RD I would support this if it is picked up by any major news outlet(s) outside of Japan. At least Google News can't find any at the time being. --hydrox (talk) 13:15, 19 January 2013 (UTC) ed: picked up by the Washington Post. --hydrox (talk) 01:01, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support for full blurb. Even if sumo is not a very international sport, he was arguably the most successful sumo player in the modern era (sort of what Pele is for football). Nergaal (talk) 22:44, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
RD support, really worried that we are still so far away from an agreed and publicised consensus on who might get a death blurb in the RD era that this can be seriously suggested for a blurb. Kevin McE (talk) 09:53, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
A large explosion rocks Aleppo, Syria, causing several casualties. Syria TV says that it was a rocket launched by "terrorists". Syrian rebels state that it was a Syrian Air Force jet causing havoc in the city. (Reuters)(The Hindu)
French journalist Yves Debay is killed by a Syrian sniper while he was covering clashed between Syrian forces and rebels. In a separate incident, Al Jazeera reporter Mohamed al-Horani is killed by a Syrian sniper while covering clashes in Busra al-Harir. (CNN)
Lottery winner Urooj Kahn's body is exhumed after investigators concluded he was poisoned by cyanide. (Chicago Tribune)
An unknown assailant throws acid in the face of Sergei Filin, who is the artistic director of the Bolshoi Theatre, leaving him partially blind. The attack is attributed to the current power struggle for the famed Russian opera house. (BBC)(AP)(Reuters)
Before we decide, do you have any links to prominent news sources, so we can judge how prominently this is In The News? --Jayron3214:42, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Is there any way to compare this with other protests in Pakistan? We posted the Catalonia protests, but those were widely viewed as record-sized protests, while the press in this case is reporting 40,000 people, if I read the article right. μηδείς (talk) 03:03, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I must weak oppose until there is evidence this event is being covered by international media in some form; discussions in the last few weeks have shown me that is an important consideration. 331dot (talk) 10:16, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Opposed due to update the long march article doesn't have enough sources for the amount of prose. Specifically the reactions section is largely unsourced. Ul-Qadri's article is better, but the long march section doesn't cover enough of the event to carry it through to the MP. Agree this is a fairly major development. --IP98 (talk) 12:43, 19 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
EVERY square inch of the page is sourced and the source is profvided. So does hat mean yu support or have another reason to oppose?
I count two inline sources in the entire reactions section. There are two whole huge paragraphs totally unsourced. There are direct quotes from government officials with no sources. I added some fact tags to help. --IP98 (talk) 01:12, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
EVERYTHING is sourced, i know, i added i. Itsoverref-fin, i feel, to ad d same ref without an intermediate diff references. The section ref includes all those quotes. You can read it.Lihaas (talk) 04:03, 20 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The Algerian Army assaults the complex with helicopter gunships, reportedly killing 15 kidnappers and as many as 34 hostages. According to local sources, at least 7 hostages remain alive and in captivity. (Al Jazeera)
Algerian news agency ANP reports that during the Algerian Army assault 600 hostages were freed. Terrorists claim that they killed 35 hostages during the battle and that 15 terrorists were killed. (USA Today)
The number of French forces in the country rises to 1,400, more than half of the planned 2,500 strong force, as its troops continue to fight insurgents in Konna and Diabaly. Chad prepares to send the first 200 troops of a 2000-strong force to assist in the military operations as part of a regional mission. The European Union votes to send 450 to 500 "non-combat" troops to Mali, half of them are trainers. (Al Jazeera)
Two car bombs explode in the city of Dujail, Iraq, leaving at least 7 dead and 25 wounded. (Xinhua)
A bomb detonated on a bus carrying pilgrims in Iraq. In a separate incident a roadside bomb detonated and injures two pilgrims walking to Hussein ibn Ali. Another bomb detonated at a bus stop killing 7 people and wounding 28. Also a civilian vehicle was hit by a roadside bomb leaving 2 dead. In total 33 people were killed in one of the most violent days this month. (AP via USA Today)
Militants belonging to Somali group al-Shabaab announce they have executed the Frenchintelligence agent who was the target of the unsuccessful French rescue attempt on January 11. French officials believe the hostage was killed during the mission itself, and the group is using the incident to manipulate the media. (Al Jazeera)
Support Only RD- She's definitely well known within the English-speaking world, but her article isn't very impressive, and she wasn't influential for a full blurb regardless. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 20:59, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD or full blurb, per Susan, probably one of the most influential women journalists in history, clearly meets criteria #2 of deaths. Secretaccount21:06, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Question: If we do post this, what name should we use? Pauline Friedman is her birth name, but is a redirect to her married name "Pauline Phillips". However, per WP:COMMONNAME, she is universally more recognized by her nom de plume "Abigail Van Buren". I suspect almost no reader would recognize either of the Pauline names, but many would recognize Abigail Van Buren instantly. I think, if we do post this in the RD ticker, it should be under Abigail Van Buren. After all, if Martin Sheen died, we wouldn't post it as "Ramón Antonio Gerardo Estévez", even though he's never legally changed his name to Martin Sheen. What does everyone else think? --Jayron3221:13, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The ticker isn't super crowded, and the two Jan 11 items will likely expire off soon, I'm ok with an "aka" either "Dear Abby" or "Abigail Van Buren". Dear Abby is shorter.... --IP98 (talk) 21:28, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
On the contrary, the ticker has two items already, and we usually only put 3 names on it. Having a legal name and a pen name at the same time would make it too long. I think we should just post it as Abigail Van Buren and do it that way. --Jayron3221:46, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nearly every news source I can find calls her Pauline Phillips in the title. On the other hand Dear Abby gets a lot more hits. My feeling is that as an encyclopedia we should use her accurate name, so I'd say Pauline Phillips. I don't think Abigal Van Buran is really as well known as 'Dear Abby' and 'Dear Abby' is way too unencyclopedic. We could solve this by moving to a full blurb but my feeling, and it consensus so far agrees, that this is an RD ticker item. So let's stick to Pauline Phillips and let readers learn her pseudonyms in the article.--Johnsemlak (talk) 22:52, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Name We wouldn't say Reginald Dwight passed away. We should use the name--pen name or columnist--that she's known by. (Opposed, BTW) μηδείς (talk) 22:52, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's comments: Significant development, a whole bunch of national aviation regulators have grounded the worldwide fleet of Boeing 787s, including Japan, Europe, India, China, and the U.S. Covered in major news sources around the world. As a nice bonus, there's a free pic to use as well. --Jayron3216:24, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support the concept of posting this; covered worldwide, involves a new aircraft used worldwide, but suggest a shorter blurb, perhaps simply by dropping the first part of the proposed one. 331dot (talk) 16:32, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Oppose at this time. In the US this affects 6 planes (only United had them), and I think the number worldwide is rather small since they've only started rolling the 787's out. It would be different if it were, say, the 737's which are more widely used and would be in the thousands and would have major effects on the airline industry. This at this point is effectively just a bad business break for Boeing. Now, if down the road, FAA and others say "sorry, we're not going to allow the 787's to fly again period", which would be a huge economic impact on Boeing which has invested a lot in this, that would be different. Right now, its a standard regulatory thing that's a small impact to anyone outside of Boeing. --MASEM (t) 16:33, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Noting a change from outright Oppose to Weak Oppose; WaltCip's pointer of the improved article is a factor towards including in ITN, though I still stand by the fact that the 787 fleet is tiny relative to worldwide aircraft fleet sizes, with the only major impact on Boeing and a few airlines. --MASEM (t) 17:10, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support - The number of 787's in circulation should not be a factor; it's still the latest iteration in the Boeing line, and the entire fleet being grounded would certainly be significant international news in the topic of interest. Aerospace news (save for crashes) seems to be fairly underrepresented on ITN. Also, the Boeing 787 article has been significantly updated as a result of the news, which makes it a prime candidate for being posted on the front page.--WaltCip (talk) 17:08, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support as expected, several other national aviation authorities issued grounding orders following the FAA. It's a big deal when a top tier manufacturer has such a significant event with such a highly engineered piece of equipment. By comparison, the Boeing_737_rudder_issues which caused multiple aircraft crashes did not result in a grounding. --IP98 (talk) 17:25, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support Boeing calls it the most technologically advanced aircraft on the planet and also for all the reasons mentioned above. But the blurb is clumsy. An alternative[1]:Boeing787 Dreamliner aircrafts are grounded worldwide following the risks of battery fires.Regards, theTigerKing19:22, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support universal grounding of newest commercial airliner, with multiple problems on aircraft of differing ages. A serious issue, not just the batteries, but the cracked cockpit glass, the failed brakes etc., affecting aircraft one month or one year old. Multiple failures on multiple aircraft of varying flying hours. A truly notable failure for any new aircraft. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:05, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Three car bombs explode near military checkpoints and government buildings in Idlib Governorate, Syria, leaving 24 people dead. Two other bombs were defused by government forces. (Reuters)
Nominator's comments: This story is of international significance. I believe it stands apart from the French military action in Mali which we have a blurb for. Jusdafax22:18, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support I was going to write and nominate this but was too lazy and decided to let someone else do it. Should the blurb mention that hostages included US, British, French, Norwegian, Japanese and Irish citizens or that it was in response to French intervention in Mali? I don't think it should mention both for sure. RyanVesey22:53, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
In my view, the word "international" in the blurb covers it. The French/Mali military connection is well covered in the article but this is a separate event with its own stories in the media. Jusdafax23:01, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good, it's not a major issue. The article currently states an estimated 41 in the lead, up to 41 in the infobox, and exactly 41 in the Hostages section. In addition, it doesn't make it clear if the 2 deaths are part of the number of hostages, or if there are ~41 living hostages and 2 who died or if there are 39 living hostages and 2 who died. I bring that up here because the blurb should be more specific on the hostages rather than saying 20-40 and should mention the deaths. RyanVesey23:09, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Good point, the New York Times said it appeared to be a reaction. I'd say post it without the Mali reaction information until something can be proven. RyanVesey23:22, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I'd leave out the motive-speculation (the US lied about Benghazi for weeks) and say "some three dozen", or "tens" if the number of hostages is important. I am in support of this as long as will pull it quickly if they are freed. μηδείς (talk) 00:04, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I can't support the blurb in it's current state and I've unmarked it as ready. I checked the New York Times which mentioned 20 attackers, which might have led to the confusion. At a minimum, the blurb should say "up to 41" instead of "20 to 40". RyanVesey00:20, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment -"At least 41" seems ok, as 41 appears to be the figure most reported. So I am good with the alt blurb, and suggest we re-mark as ready. I just did a news sweep and there is no sign of this being resolved soon. I see strong consensus to post. Jusdafax02:27, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
While i support this inclusion, perhaps we should link it to Mali (the explicit reason given) with a bump for that bold article/.Lihaas (talk) 06:05, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
UPDATE NEEDED- Reports say there has been an attack on the compound by the Algerian troops. The blurb needs an update regarding that right away. It appears some of the hostages and most of the hostage takers are now dead, with some hostages liberated. My thanks to any admins free to work on this. Jusdafax20:08, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[50][51][52][reply]
I'd gladly do so, but the article needs updating first. The article, and its sources, are still couched in ambiguous language "reportedly" "allegedly" "unconfirmed reports" that sort of thing, and if we have good confirmation of further significant developments, we need two things: 1) A solid update to the article that removes eariler unconfirmed reports and wishy-washy text with more updated, solid, and unambiguous sources that confirm the recent developments and 2) a blurb to replace the current one with. If you can come up with that, we have an update for the blurb coming. --Jayron3220:54, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Problem being, there is a wealth of contradictory information even in the strongest news outlets at this moment. As I suggested elsewhere, my own suggestion is to add from the end of the blurb, replacing the ending period with a comma, "with a subsequent raid by Algerian forces resulting in multiple fatalities." On the other hand, perhaps the best thing to do is let the dust settle over this tragedy until there is definitive word on what actually happened. It seems the crisis is still in progress and that there are unliberated hostages still held. Jusdafax21:31, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Update As I suspected this moved very quickly and the blurb is hugely stale. Whatever admin posted this should take responsibility for the update. μηδείς (talk) 22:56, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
support update and came here to say that. Though only thing is the actual number of dead is unconfirmed from Mauritania/Islamist source to Algerian source. Apparently some Algerian escaped and other hostages are still held.Lihaas (talk) 02:20, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Leaning support - It is an unusual story, an event which has caused massive disruption on rail, buses and road, and has tragically seen people killed. The article is concise and well referenced (thanks to those who helped out after I created the bare bone article), which should satisfy our criteria. doktorbwordsdeeds10:16, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral - I'm a Londoner. This is a serious and tragic incident. But I think it remains to be seen whether it's got the sort of wide-ranging effect that a good ITN story should. AlexTiefling (talk) 10:40, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
*Support An unusual incident in the center of Europe's largest metropolis, this is notable. If it had happened in the US, it would already be on the main page. Getting (talk) 10:59, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Removing support, I no longer wish to contribute to this matter due to certain users causing problems. I remove my support, please disregard the original vote I made when counting the results. Getting (talk) 11:18, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Certain editors being the one you ordered to "kiss your ass", or the certain editor who reverted your unsolicited article move? doktorbwords
Oppose Getting's point is ridiculous. As strange as it is and temporarily disruptive as it is, this is not a serious incident with minute international implications and wouldn't appear on the main page had it happened anywhere. Therequiembellishere (talk) 11:01, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Local incident; I'm American and I would oppose it if it happened in London, New York, Los Angeles, Tokyo, the North Pole, or anywhere. The idea that it would get posted because of some US bias is wrong and mildly offensive. 331dot (talk) 11:05, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That last sentence is OTT. To say that there might be a systemic bias towards stories heavily covered in the US media, and to say that specific contributors are consciously holding US and non-US stories to different standards, are two entirely different things. The former might be a valid point, particularly if a seemingly equivalent story has been put forward, as in this case. The latter is an allegation that has not been made here and should not be made lightly. —WFC— FL wishlist16:05, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't wish to bog this page down debating my comments; so I will only say that I stand by it. I'm willing to discuss it elsewhere if desired. 331dot (talk) 16:25, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I would argue it shouldn't have been; too few casualties and otherwise didn't involve large numbers of people. Things change in seven years. 331dot (talk) 11:25, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose it really is a minor aviation incident and it's only getting major coverage because of the city. Yes we posted a small plane hitting a building in NYC in 2k6, if I had been here, I would have opposed it. --IP98 (talk) 11:56, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral Unsure. Like people say it's been getting a lot of coverage because of the location, yet also is relatively minor in terms of how aviation incidents can go. Canuck89(talk to me) 12:32, January 16, 2013 (UTC)
It's tricky. On the one hand, the casualty figures are mercifully low. On the other, this was clearly very nearly much worse - the stricken chopper just missed another tall building, and came down in the middle of the main road into Vauxhall bus station from the south in the middle of the morning rush hour. But then we don't post what might have been. As it is, this has not been much worse than any provincial light aviation accident. How much metropolitan panic needs to be added to such a story before it becomes front page news? AlexTiefling (talk) 12:37, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
oppose 2 deaths, local incident (not even UK-wide, only London). Conversely theere were 80+ uni deaths in Syria yest. Even unusual for the civil war natureLihaas (talk) 12:40, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral The article, while short, is postable. Therefore, the credibility of this as an ITN candidate really depends how heavily this has been covered by organisations other than the BBC. I would hope that admins ignore arbitrary rationalisations of the death toll, and instead focus on arguments which reflect on the level (or lack thereof) of international prominence this story has received. —WFC— FL wishlist16:05, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The death toll is certainly relevant; if we posted every event with two deaths, ITN would be bogged down with postings While international coverage is relevant, it should not be the sole criterion in determining what happens here. 331dot (talk) 16:27, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
ITN serves as the Main Page's link between what is encyclopaedic and what is newsworthy, in the hope of attracting readers whose initial interest was the latter. Assuming that the subject merits a Wikipedia article, and that said article is of reasonable quality, why on earth shouldn't coverage be the overriding factor? —WFC— FL wishlist19:41, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Clearly death toll is not relevant, it's the impact on international news which is important. 331dot, how many deaths for you to accept an ITN? 10? 20? 50? 25,000? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:35, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know, but certainly not two. If we post this two death incident for the sole reason that it was reported in many places, then we would have to post them all. International reporting of an event is not the sole criterion to post here, as I've seen other events rejected despite being reported worldwide. 331dot (talk) 02:43, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose- Obviously a plane crash is a local incident because it can only happen in one place, but I agree that this is just too small-scale to be notable. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 19:25, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Now on main page of diewelt.de ("Tote nach Helikopterabsturz in Londons Innenstadt"), lemondre.fr ("Deux morts dans un crash d'hélicoptère à Londres"), elmundo.es ("Un helicóptero se estrella en Londres"). The Rambling Man (talk) 20:40, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose A small crash like this, however tragic for the victims, is by itself not notable, and given there's no destruction of a landmark or other notable issue involved it doesn't raise to the level of ITN. μηδείς (talk) 19:49, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose As soon as I saw that Google was listing this article under other news stories on this event I came here, just knowing that somebody would be trying to get it ITN. This is a local news story, with few deaths. It is not "major". It is not "international". Abductive (reasoning)20:04, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Note, it says above "Do not complain about an event only relating to a single country". Everyone complaining that the event isn't international seems to be ignoring this. 2.28.216.166 (talk) 10:59, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
My complaint is not based on the fact that the event occurred in the UK; it is based on the fact that it is an event limited in scope to a single city. I wouldn't care if it was in the UK, US, Japan, or wherever. 331dot (talk) 14:19, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
That's staggeringly irrelevant to this discussion. Sporting contests and fatal aviation accidents are not comparable. And you know full well that the main reason for opposition to NCAA sports here is that they are not the highest level at which those sports are played - not that they are confined to the USA. AlexTiefling (talk) 16:33, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's comments: It is very rare for a major government official to be subject to arrest, and the conflict between the judiciary and executive is creating a crisis. There are also reports of thousands of protesters in the streets denouncing the current government. --Dragons flight (talk) 21:43, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Highly interesting development and it could get big really fast. I am on the fence and like others here will continue to watch for developments. The update in the article is one sentence... very inadequate. Jusdafax21:54, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support since the arrest order for a pm in office is clearly notable. However, the article should be updated regarding the events leading to today's verdict.Egeymi (talk) 21:59, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
oppose arrest order only from a politicised judiciary acting only afer the long march's organiser's whims. Instead consider the new ITNC nom below.Lihaas (talk) 22:24, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support' - Lihaas, we can't understand the nomination below, let alone vote on it. I agree with Jusdafax and others with regards this interesting and notable story, and think it deserves to be on the front page doktorbwordsdeeds22:38, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
btw0 i appreciate this comment as not bite-y, i can comment on this. Thanks for commenting on comntent.
As an aside, i was nominating it before this gets rapidly posted without conent. Ive added stuff to the page and am working on the main section now.Lihaas (talk) 23:39, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. This is certainly a big enough story. But are we looking at a situation where his actual arrest might be imminent? Should we wait for that to happen? Formerip (talk) 23:12, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support once suitable update written. Receiving prominent international coverage, and an arrest warrant for a PM is certainly sufficiently notable. Lihaas may very well be right that this is the action of a politicised judiciary, but (1) I don't think it's our place to judge the merits of actions in the news; and (2) I don't see that that makes it any less notable - it still produces a standoff between the government and court. On balance, I don't think we should wait for the actual arrest, given (1) the possibility the government will ignore this and it won't happen; and (2) the fact it's already receiving lots of coverage. Neljack (talk) 00:14, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support but the update is still mighty thin. Trouble is, this news item is fast going stale and I see no effort being made to actually arrest Ashraf. At least, nothing I am seeing in the news. Jusdafax08:54, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Support but Wait till arrested Given the long union of Military coups and the civilian governments. The directions of Supreme Court may not be implemented and could be challenged as well, if the opinion of a well known constitutional expert of Pakistan are to be taken into account.Regards, theTigerKing19:25, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's comments: Massive demonstration in scale, akin to Arab world protests. I will just go about updating an article. --Lihaas (talk) 22:19, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Another badly written nomination from Lihaas. I can't even tell who or what this proposal is about. Could a kindly admin close this, please? AlexTiefling (talk) 22:24, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - I agree with Alex. The nomination has been badly written by Lihaas - as is so often the case - making a full appreciation of its merits difficult. But even if that hurdle is cleared, I then agree with Muboshgu, in that an article should exist before we consider its worth for the front page doktorbwordsdeeds22:32, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"ANother badly written..." Where is that then? Instead of attackign editors and disrutping the collegial atmosphere consider commenting on CONTENT!!!!
At any rate, this is a work in progress and unlike the incessant bickering preferred here im ading content to WP. Do you do that instead? I was bringing to attention before the above gets posted (and completely derelict of context) as there was another more prescient, notable and covered iisue in Pakistan at the momentLihaas (talk) 22:38, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Please consider providing some content that we can actually comment on. Not only are the march and cleric red links (update: the cleric link was a red link when I posted this, now it points to the figure), you didn't provide a reference. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:40, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, now the page exists, but there's still not much to go on. In the future, you should really create the article and make it substantive before you nominate, so the discussion doesn't get derailed the way this one did. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:55, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - We already covered Puerto Rico's statehood campaign, in a far less partial manner, just after the US election and accompanying referendum. This is just a small part of the same campaign. AlexTiefling (talk) 21:46, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think this is actually quite notable. Have we ever had a movement that visited every single member of Congress in a single day for the same cause/goal? Evenmoreso, this is about changing the political status of a whole nation. —Ahnoneemoos (talk) 22:05, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Puerto Rico isn't a "nation". It's a commonwealth. As for your question, maybe we have. I know that an organization I'm affiliated with makes visits to Capitol Hill in a similarly organized manner on a regular basis. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:19, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
(after ec and hamfisted deletion of my comment by Lihaas) I'm British, so 'we' have no Congress for activists to bother. You may wish to pay some attention to the movements for the independence of Scotland, Catalonia, and the Basque country before you assert that this is a unique movement for a political change to a whole nation. I have great sympathy with the Puerto Rican statehood movement; but this is just one publicity campaign for it. We are not here to report on publicity stunts, but on actual deeds and decisions. And replying assiduously to every opposing voter is most unbecoming. AlexTiefling (talk) 22:21, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Well, first of all, this is not about statehood movement since Taking of Congress did not identify itself with a specific status. Second, yes, Scotland has similar movements but I was referring in the context of U.S. history. Regarding my replies, don't we thrive on Wikipedia (and IRL) when we discuss things like rational people and express our opinions and counterarguments to persuade others? I'm so confused. —Ahnoneemoos (talk) 22:33, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - This smacks of Occupy-style "citizen news" to me, and we rightly defeated every attempt to get that rabble onto the front page. I have every sympathy - truly - with the ambition to get Peurto Rico a new status as the newest full State of the USA. I wish them every success. But this kind of story is not for Wikipedia - it's part of the long lobbying process, and however spectacular it may be, it's not "news". When the Occupy IP addresses flooded ITN/C to make their case, we correctly and rightly reminded them that they were just acting, just slogan shouting, just lobbying. They weren't "news" in the sense we needed for the front page of Wikipedia. Neither is this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doktorbuk (talk • contribs) 21:54, January 15, 2013 (UTC)
This is not like Occupy since this is not a protest; at all. Didn't you just contradict yourself by calling it spectacular and then saying it is not news? o_O —Ahnoneemoos (talk) 22:05, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I did. A "spectacle" can be anything which is attention grabbing. But a fireworks display is not news. A fight in the Italian parliament is not news. A small gathering of people waving flags, whilst spectacular in its widest sense, is not news. 22:18, 15 January 2013 (UTC) doktorbwordsdeeds22:33, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Identifying yourself as a compulsive liar is a good way never to be taken seriously. Making an apparently false claim to be a founder of Wikipedia is highly misleading whether or not you also claim to be a liar. You seem to be a lot newer than the similarly named user AnonMoos. You also, according to the last paragraph of your user page, appear to have a conflict of interest in this case. AlexTiefling (talk) 22:50, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As an aside, "Taking of Congress" does not appear in context in a Google search, save for the Wikipedia articles that this user has created.--WaltCip (talk) 23:19, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No hablo Español. But a search of Google News in English and Spanish hasn't yielded a damned thing about this, and I don't think the links the OP has provided are to reliable news sites - or even to news at all. There is, bluntly, no evidence that this campaign even exists outside the puff-pieces of professional publicists. AlexTiefling (talk) 23:36, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have been thinking of nominating this myself but given the current situation--he has admitted to doping in a taped interview which will be shown on Thursday in the US--it might be better to wait until the 'official' confession (or whatever it is). Plus, once the interview is released there will presumably be a lot more to report and a much larger basis for an update. So I would say, Support posting as soon as the interview is released, unless enough details of it are confirmed earlier.--Johnsemlak (talk) 18:24, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - As Alex above. "Cheat confirms he cheats on chat show" has an alliterative tang to it which may be attractive to poets, but whatever the heck you want to call it, it ain't news doktorbwordsdeeds21:55, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Wait - seems possibly notable to me, as an important turning point in the most high-profile doping case I can think of. But we should wait until after the interview has been aired. Right now we don't know exactly what he will say. Thue (talk) 22:09, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The NYT article talks about cycling being excluded from the Olympics if IUC officials have known too much, which is hinted at. And I get the impression that his conviction was not really internalized everywhere until now, with many people saying he was unfairly convicted. Thue (talk) 22:44, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
WP:CRYSTAL is why I think you can't vote oppose to this before the interview has actually aired, and we know what is in it... Thue (talk) 23:04, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It's an interview. Unless he proclaims himself to be the Messiah, announces that he's running for president, or reveals evidence of life on Mars, I'm not sure how he's going to make the cut. Besides, the nomination is for content in the interview which has already been announced. AlexTiefling (talk) 23:15, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose we posted when they yelled "you cheated" and took his awards away, no reason to repost now that he's admitted "well, yeah, I cheated". --IP98 (talk) 22:35, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - so he decided to admit what the world knew already. Good for him for admitting it, but there's no reason to devote mainpage space to this topic which has become a bore. LadyofShalott02:57, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support but lets wait until the interview actually airs. There are already enough other sites reporting the contents of an interview that has yet to air. AutomaticStrikeout (T • C) 20:38, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support As someone who's always denied any involvment in doping, this is a major development. Also it can include the fact that the IOC have stripped him of his Olympic bronze from Sydney in 2000. LugnutsDick Laurent is dead08:51, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Convicted criminals often deny that they committed the crime they were convicted of; it's not news when they finally admit it. 331dot (talk) 10:52, 18 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Since it was posted at RD, this guy has gotten a ton of attention both in the US and internationally. I think he might deserve a full blurb. Nergaal (talk) 17:29, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: a million times short of the profile of person that has been considered worthy of full blurb in the era of an RD column in any discussion. Kevin McE (talk) 18:57, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Opposeagain, although I shouldn't have to, since this has already been discussed and posting a second thread is a way to make an end run around all the opposes already listed below. μηδείς (talk) 19:13, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support - This story has been in the news for days now. Swartz was a major figure in his field, and his death was unexpected. The legal issues are of continuing interest in light of attempts to have him pardoned. For me it's not about what Swartz "deserves", it's the magnitude of the story and the fact that it has "legs." Jusdafax21:25, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Eugen, it is not 'obvious' that the subject deserves this. You're supposed to produce actual arguments here, not just insist your chosen story should go up. Conversely, I think Kevin's characterisation of this story as 'a million times short' is very unfair. But we have already posted this story to RD, and I'm not sure what more needs to be said. AlexTiefling (talk) 21:56, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - I opposed him even getting on the front page, so be sure as hell that a full blurb is being opposed. He is very much "another Steve Jobs" in my opinion - a man for whom post-mortem adulation has come from a very narrow slice of Internet-enabled people whose over population in a niche has enabled his life to be inflated/overblown to something it was never going to be. He was someone who created the RSS system, as I understand it, and for that he deserves credit. He does not deserve praise. He does not deserve adulation. He certainly doesn't deserve front page prominence on Wikipedia. doktorbwordsdeeds22:01, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support I agree with Jusdafax that this story has legs. The update in the article is better than many I've seen get full blurbs as well. That said, I qualify my support as weak, since though he's not 'a million times short', he does feel a bit less notable than others who would be given a blurb. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:02, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose because I don't see what we gain by adding a generic blurb. If he's as famous as you say, a [nationality] [name] [occupation] [dies] [age] blurb would add very little. Propose an interesting blurb and people might change their minds. —WFC— FL wishlist19:53, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Article needs updating Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Oppose Why is the director of a film with low viewing figures and no awards to be considered for a MP position? Is every director represented at Unsimulated sex to be considered RD-worthy? I see nothing in his article that suggests a major international profile, or status at the top of his profession. Even within Japanese cinema, not an evident outstanding player. Kevin McE (talk) 19:08, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support A long, storied and recognized career, far more notable than two blank spots at RD and a long-suicidal petty criminal who knew people who actually designed and founded real accomplishments. 07:58, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
Nominator's comments: Iconic retailer with international prescence and 90 years of history. Arguably the highest profile casualty of the current economic downturn. [59] --yorkshiresky (talk) 08:43, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Leaning support I think you're right to call this a high profile casualty. There's often business-led nominations on these pages though this kind is often overlooked or objected. It's perhaps not rippling around the world's news pages to the degree I'd like but am certainly supportive of the intention doktorbwordsdeeds09:53, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support We really lack such business stories on the main page and it's hard for me to recall what was the last time we posted a corporation or organisation entering administration or going bankrupt (perhaps it was the case with Rangers F.C.).--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 10:24, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral I won't !vote either way because I'm still a bit bitter over the s... storm over posting the Hostess bankruptcy. HMV was obviously big in the UK, and had a strong position in Canada, but had spent the last 5 years winding down it's international operations. This seems like the end of a slow death. --IP98 (talk) 11:55, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, going into adminstration isn't the same as bankrupcy, it's possible HMV could still survive this. As per IP98, I think this is one stage in a long slow death, rather than a singular dramatic event. As the operations of the company are mostly restricted to UK and Ireland it doesn't particuarly strike me as a story of great international reprecussions. --LukeSurltc12:18, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral. As LukeSurl says, going into administration isn't the same as bankruptcy; also it isn't making big news everywhere (not on the BBC UK mainpage, only a sidestory on the CNN page). But then, it was big in the UK and in India as well, though it started disinvesting in India and Australia many years ago. MikeLynch (talk) 12:42, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Note: HMV boss "Confident in finding solution" - Link. This isn't unexpected though I will admit HMV is pretty iconic. I remember the Hostess brands fiasco even though I wasn't even a registered user back then (I think) - a lot of support-votes seemed to be based on Hostess being "An Iconic brand" which to me isn't such a bad rational, yet Hostess is/was a much larger company than HMV if I am correct. And I rather liked Twinkies you know... --Kawaii-Soft (talk) 13:23, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The company isn't in bankruptcy, let alone liquidation. No impact outside of the company (nobody misses Tower Records). Comparing this to Lehman Bros. gives me the context to say no. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:45, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"Wasn't very influential"? Sorry, but I can't recall a modern record store with such an international reach. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk)16:39, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I'm really no expert in business, but the article on administration clearly states that, in the UK, 'Administration is analogous to going into "Chapter 11 [bankruptcy]" in the United States'. But personally, even for a reasonable-size company like this one, I would rather post when it closes down. Too bad... I still like having physicals of my records, and as mentioned, HMV is pretty big here in Canada. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk)16:39, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Companies whose business revolves around physical media have been dying for a while now. This isn't exactly news in that regard. I guess my support or oppose would depend on whether we posted a blurb for Blockbuster when it hit bankruptcy. If we did, I support. If we didn't, I oppose. Resolute16:40, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If I see Nipper looking upset, I'll apologise. HMV has failed to evolve in the way that would have been necessary for them to survive, lest you missed the implication. Kevin McE (talk) 22:45, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Question Is this the company that used the logo of the dog looking at the Gramophone? I would support if that image were to be allowed on ITN. Otherwise nobody will know what HMV is. Abductive (reasoning)22:15, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Government forces conduct air raids against rebels south of Damascus, as well as in Aleppo, with local observers reporting dozens of deaths, including children. (Al Jazeera)
Myanmar government forces shell the rebel stronghold of Laiza for the first time since the resumption of hostilities in 2011, killing 3 civilians and injuring 6 others. (Al Jazeera)
A police officer is wounded after a grenade attack in Benghazi, as Italy announces the temporary withdrawal of the country's consulate in the city after an unsuccessful attack against the consul two days earlier. (Reuters)
Comment. The consensus in the previous years indicated that the GG are of smaller importance than the Academy Awards so only those should be posted (rationale is that we post a couple of film festivals already). --Tone08:44, 14 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose. The GG's are not the top level award in film; consensus also seems to suggest that they've been treated that way before. If they are posted, the blurb should be left alone; we don't need to list more than what's there. 331dot (talk) 10:24, 14 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Weakest of opposes - The Golden Globes have some level of notability and coverage in the U.S. national media anyway... Honestly, posting this comes down to subjective taste.--WaltCip (talk) 14:50, 14 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support The Golden Globes may not be the highest up awards for film, but they're still significant. Also, blurbs are cheap when the timer is red. Ks0stm(T•C•G•E)02:08, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's comments: TV. poor blurb, i know (but it can be changed). Has been ongoingfor a while, US ambassador commented this week too. KIA shot down govt helicopter gunship yest too. ICG due to "honour" Thein Sein controversially in NYC Lihaas (talk) 02:33, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose As above, and indeed as below with Belfast. There's no single "hook" on which we can hang a blurb, largely because there's not been a single event worthy of a nomination. We are not a news ticker. doktorbwordsdeeds10:07, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's comments: Impeachment of chief justice is noteworthy in itself but this is the first impeachment of a chief justice in Sri Lankan history and has resulted in a constitutional crisis. --obi2canibetalkcontr21:18, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for now. The headline does sound notable but BBC and Al Jazeera English websites both don't have this on their front page at all currently. It appears this could result in fallout that might be more notable--report it then.--Johnsemlak (talk) 22:57, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Support Extensive and very good article - the sort of content we should be showcasing. Story now on the front page of BBC News and reported extensive by the international media, including Reuters, Washington Post, Los Angeles Times, The Independent and the Hindustan Times (see the article for links to them). A particularly notable impeachment given that (a) it ignores a Supreme Court ruling; (b) Bandaranayake refuses to recognise it; (c) it has sparked protests in Sri Lanka, as well as lawyers and judges effectively going on strike in protest; and (d) it has drawn international criticism (including from the UN, the Commonwealth,, Britain, Canada, the US and the International Commission of Jurists). Neljack (talk) 02:47, 14 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment On reflection, the blurb should reflect the disputed legality of the removal, per NPOV. Perhaps this could be done by adding the words "despite the Supreme Court ruling the impeachment unconstitutional." If that's too long the nominator's shorter alternative blurb could be used, with the words I have proposed added. C628's blurb refers only to Parliament, when it was the President who removed her after impeachment by Parliament, so I don't support that blurb. Neljack (talk) 04:13, 14 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Posted. I used a slightly edited version of what C268 proposed as a blurb; I concur in thinking that the blurb should mention the controversy because that's what makes it especially notable. SpencerT♦C22:12, 14 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It think the blurb is missing some detail; the impeachment by parliament occurred on 11 January. It was the ratification of this decision by President Rajapaksa that occurred on the 13th. Currently the blurb makes no mention of the Presidential action. Also the term "impeachment" implies only that the individual was formally accused, but not necessarily that they were removed from office (e.g. the Impeachment of Bill Clinton). --LukeSurltc23:42, 14 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hm, I see what you mean but the suggested blurb is quite lengthy; I'll put it up for the meantime because that's more accurate but I'm still open for suggestions or other possibilities. SpencerT♦C00:56, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's comments: There have been a number of estimates making it ever more unlikely to hit. It seems fitting to post this final "now we know it won't hit". Thue (talk) 22:36, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral the article is excellent, graphics, structure the kind of thing we should highly at ITN. I think the orange tag could be easily resolved. Neutral because it seems a bit odd to post something that wont happen in 3023 years. The odds were "only" 2.7%. Either way, this means I have to update a lot of code. --IP98 (talk) 22:42, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I know you put the "only" in quotes, but a 2.7% chance if a 1480 Megaton impact event was a very big deal. A non-trivial chance of such an even should never be connected to the word "only", in quotes or not!Thue (talk) 22:55, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That was the peak estimate in 2004, shortly after discovery and while the orbit had not yet been accurately determined. Before the 2013 flyby, the chance was 1 in 250,000 (according to our article). Modest Geniustalk13:33, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, as the crux of the story is an event not occurring, indeed, an event not occurring in 23 years time. ITN is for things happening now. LukeSurltc22:46, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose something that won't happen, and something that really only made news because it won't happen. If, in five years time, NASA work out they made yet another calculation error, and we're all doomed, run it. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:56, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Great article, shame about the nomination. There's nothing for the front page here, is there? Something which might not have happened anyway is proven not to be possible. It's not news, it's a conclusion. doktorbwordsdeeds23:11, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support because this is a good article, in the news, and of great readership interest, which is what ITN is for. The prediction part is beside the point. μηδείς (talk) 23:29, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
While I do understand your point, I don't think we'd be featuring a story about Jenna Jameson getting married, which is a featured article that would also be in the news and of great readership interest. Significance should still play an important part in ITN. SpencerT♦C02:53, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, Jenna gets an average of around 7,000 hits a day. This asteroid got around 2,000 a day until it was confirmed it wasn't an issue, and now it's heading back to it's 2,000 day average. Jenna's article would doubtless go into orbit should she announce a marriage or something similar. So these stats really aren't useful either way. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:34, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Most folk round here have long since realised that using page view stats is pretty much nonsense, as they always get artificially inflated. I'd always advise people to ignore anyone who uses page view stats. doktorbwordsdeeds20:39, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Artificially inflated? as in by readers? If you're making some sort of actual, not just made up accusation, give the evidence or citation. μηδείς (talk) 04:55, 14 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If there's coverage of an issue out there in the real world, then there would be a spike in readership stats, before it falls back to normal (as Rambling Man has shown with his example). They're unreliable - something is popular, artificially, when there is coverage. You can't use them as evidence to back up your claims because anyone can show how a page gathers attention at the peak of its outside Wikipedia coverage doktorbwordsdeeds05:19, 14 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. Essentially the story here is that something which was highly unlikely has now become extremely unlikely. I don't see that as significant. The article isn't that good either - it's lacking in citations and a large chunk of it is a long list of unreferenced proseline. Modest Geniustalk01:09, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose; I don't think this is the kind of non-event that should be included in ITN. It wasn't very likely in the first place, and now it's just even more so. Should we post every time the estimate of the end of the universe is revised? No. Same with this. 331dot (talk) 02:35, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's comments: Protests started a while ago but are still onlgoing. This sectarian bent comes less than 1 year after the last IMC report --Lihaas (talk) 21:51, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: There's no new development here; the "protests" have been violent since they started over a month ago. While I'd have supported their addition then, it's pretty misleading to state that they have "turned violent" now. GRAPPLEX21:55, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Leaning oppose As often is the case, Lihaas is wrong to say they've turned violent all of a sudden. There's been violence for the best part of a month, if not more. I'm not sure how to handle this nomination because it's been going on for so long and there's plenty of articles to choose from. I'd go to support if things can be worked out somehow doktorbwordsdeeds22:14, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As is always the case, doktorbuk has nothing but venom and spite and NPA on his ITNC comments.
Oppose as an "in the news" article since this has been going on for around six weeks now. If anything, lately it's getting less relevant. People are talking and trying to arrive at a solution. If this had been nominated five weeks ago, perhaps.... The Rambling Man (talk) 22:25, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Comment: Both Doktorbuk and Grapple X above commentators have good points in regards the development of the protests. Essentially it is that the protests have lasted so long that makes them quite notable. The structure of ITN doesn't really address long-term stories like this that well, being better suited to acute, single events. It's tricky, as cumulatively this is a reasonable candidate, but nothing acutely notable has happened on this particular date. LukeSurltc22:25, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
In response to your above comment, dokotorbuk said "As often is the case, Lihaas is wrong". And youll find through archives numerous instances of him biting at me instead of refraining from NPA and comment on content. I thus stand by what i say unless and until he wishes to change that pattern.
I'm not being spiteful, I'm underlining how here (and somewhere further down this page), there's been reason to point out an error in your conclusions of a story. If I can sidestep this tangent, I have to echo the point made above about this on-going unrest. It's been violent (in the widest sense of that word) for almost a month. If we can all work out an article and a blurb, then perhaps we can move towards posting, but if you're suggesting that things have become violent only now, then you're misguided. doktorbwordsdeeds23:14, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I find it impossible to express myself with decorum, but will make myself explicit if necessary--it's just no good all around. μηδείς (talk) 23:37, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: relevant date for nomination dropped off the bottom of the page several weeks ago. Scale of protests absolutely trifling by world standards. Kevin McE (talk) 23:58, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Stale. Whilst the protests are ongoing, the real event was the first set. No significant developments have occurred - 'it's still going on' is all that can be said really. If something changes, there's definite scope for ITN, but not right now. Modest Geniustalk01:13, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose These aren't protesters, but chav scum who are causing trouble. I doubt they could even spell loyalist, let alone engage in a political debate about it. Best ignore these idiots instead of giving them more attention. LugnutsDick Laurent is dead10:05, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No, I agree with Medeis. 'Chav' is a racist term - the fact that it does not, technically, describe the people Lugnuts is applying it to is neither here nor there. The meaning of 'scum', affixed to a racist epithet, should be obvious. AlexTiefling (talk) 22:02, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
While I find Lugnuts' contribution characteristically unhelpful, I am totally bemused at the notion that chav describes or defines a race, or that its application is limited to people of any given race. Classist, if you wish, but by no stretch of the imagination racist. Kevin McE (talk) 22:37, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Article:Nguyen Khanh (talk·history·tag) Recent deaths nomination (Post) News source(s): No English-language sources yet, but several Vietnamese-language sources [62][63] all cite [64] as the main source. He reportedly died January 11. Credits:
Article needs updating Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Support RD per ITN/DC #1. Though just announced, he died on Jan 11 and the post should be back dated that time, and expire off with the rest of the Jan 11 items. --IP98 (talk) 11:36, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - No, the collection of objects is really big. The story is really small, and we already have, or had, a thread about it further down this page. AlexTiefling (talk) 23:38, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I am renominating. Previous objections were largely based on the lack of an article, which has grown respectable in the past 48 hours. Subject is getting across-the-board coverage in mainstream media, and the discovery now appears to challenge Einstein's theory of a 'smooth cosmos.' I'll add that to the blurb. Jusdafax23:49, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have a conflict of interest, I should think, so if someone could give it a quick SNOW close... thanks. I will add the original nominator to the article. Jusdafax00:04, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Spencer! It seemed too heavy-handed for me to do that. Also, I have no problems with DarthBotto getting credit. He was just ahead of the curve on the first try. Jusdafax02:18, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment My problem is the challenging relativity part. Challenging Einstein usually doesnt pay off as proven by a certain muon recently. However we did post that muon carefully and i'll be ok if this one is made clear as well that 1.2Bly is the limit that this structure seems to breaking. Right now blurb is a bit vague and need to be more specific -- Ashish-g5501:37, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Agreed, there should be no mention of the Einstein bit. It's a record, simple as that. If we can post a record number of balls kicked into a net in 12 months, we can post this for sure. --IP98 (talk) 01:41, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The Einstein stuff can certainly be removed if it is sufficiently disliked for the blurb. Let's get consensus on having a blurb at all. I forgot that this qualifies as a minority topic, so it shouldn't be a bitter struggle. Jusdafax02:14, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'll change the blurb then to a piped link. I edited the article a bit and made a redirect from the full name. I probably should have just moved it instead, but at this point I don't want to cause formatting trouble, so I will use the piping. μηδείς (talk) 02:47, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Not featuring in news, and we no longer have a policy of preference for "minority topics". Moved to appropriate date: work on article does not change the instructions. Kevin McE (talk) 06:59, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The story is most definitely featuring in the news. The prior wait votes below amount to present support votes now. This is pretty clear cut--is the largest thing in the universe unpostworthy, while the oldest woman in nebraska for two weeks was? μηδείς (talk) 07:46, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Your Google link disproves your claim. Adding the News filter, the results are overwhelmingly from specialist journals, not mainstream news sources. There are 21 headlines on the BBC Science and Environment page, and this is not among them; guardian.co.uk has a specific space news page: 28 stories on it, and this one is nowhere to be seen. Kevin McE (talk) 19:15, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The BBC Science and Environment page links to its article on this subject in the "watch-listen" section in the top right hand corner, the google news search largest structure universe provides plenty of links, the first one for me being the Times of India. Martin451 (talk) 19:34, 16 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Like I said: 21 Science and Environment headlines, and it is not among them. It is accessible, but not immediately visible: that is not giving a story a high profile. The google search you suggest also gives a set of results in which major news sites are conspicuous by their absence. Kevin McE (talk) 00:18, 17 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
oppose ITN is becoming a silly ool for posting most deaths (with death posting being well over 50% ecerntly), also his notability IMO is not outstanding. Deaths in XXXX is good enoughLihaas (talk) 21:23, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
What exactly are you basing that on? I don't fully understand your remarks. The nomination makes no mention of the deceaseds nationality. Was there a Romanian web developer who died recently and was intentionally not nominated to the front page of the English Wikipedia? --IP98 (talk) 22:00, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I had no idea what nationality he was. As an RSS pioneer and someone making the front page of the international BBC news page, it transcended the nationality. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:33, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Notoriety seems to be what is essentially petty crime (JSTOR and PACER). We don't post the execution of murderers, we definitely don't post the suicide of a book warez pirate. Co-authorizing the RSS specification is no where near creating C (which was rightfully posted). Finally no evidence in his article that he passes ITN/DC #2, which is the most important criteria. --IP98 (talk) 21:28, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Heh, funny guy. In that case, disregard any mentions on any news websites worldwide. What a ridiculous argument. Funniest post of 2013 so far. Well done!! The Rambling Man (talk) 21:58, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! I'll be sure to oppose the nomination for your win of the "FIFA Most sarcastic Wikipedian of the year" award. --IP98 (talk) 22:03, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No, FIFA don't administer such awards, they tend to focus on association football in case you weren't aware. But thanks! Still laughing at your ridiculous argument. Giggles all round, nice fillip for us all for the new year. Well done!! The Rambling Man (talk) 22:11, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Your mindless sarcasm, Lionel Messi, all irrelevant bullshit to me. If the front page of bbc.co.uk is so valuable, please nominate the pollution in Beijing or Doha's disappearing old city. I still haven't stopped laughing at your absurd insistence on implied notability from 80 square pixels of web space. Right behind new taxes in Greece right? Really? --IP98 (talk) 22:26, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, take a break dude. "irrelevant bullshit"? "absurd insistence... from 80 square pixels of web space" [sic]. Really? Your comments here severely detract from some of your more cogent arguments. Cheers. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:29, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I got derailed at your "laughing" and derisive remarks. But please let me know when you nominate the new Greek taxes. --IP98 (talk) 22:33, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, when financial apocalypse gets more relevant again, I'll let you know. In the meantime, I suggest you chill out and find someone else to take a pop at about Messi's ITN etc. If you don't like the process, change it. If you can't be bothered to change it, don't moan about it. Thanks for the lols. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:40, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No no, it's on bbc.co.uk today, so it must be notable today. You don't want "disregard mentions on news sites" do you? Please, get a nom up, it must be important, it got some space at bbc.co.uk. I'm perfectly chill, just trying to learn the ropes here. If something on the front page of bbc.co.uk it is notable? Then, please, please, please nominate new Greek taxes, pollution in Beijing, and Dohas' old city straight away. Lickity split! --IP98 (talk) 22:46, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Are you still commenting here?! I suggested this nomination was notable since the BBC had noted it. Nothing more about any other news story. If you have something to complain about, take it elsewhere. Claiming, as you did originally, that the BBC is not a reliable source for news stories is absurd and you've entirely undermined your contributions thus far. Cheers for that. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:51, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Where did I make the statement that "the BBC is not a reliable source for news stories"? I said that web space is cheap space and doesn't establish notability. I certainly did not make the statement you've suggested. --IP98 (talk) 22:56, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
By suggesting "web space is cheap" and that I needed to wait to see it on the news, you attempted to undermine the relevance of the BBC news homepage. You have a grudge. Don't take it out on me or this news item. You hated the Messi article being run, I didn't even vote for or against it, so leave me alone. If you want to change the process, do that, don't go on endlessly here about something in your mind you dislike about this process. I'm still in favour of running this article, most others aren't, so don't stress, you'll be fine and it won't run, and we can wait until the Greeks take another 50 billion euro bailout and all that. Whatever. That's not really what Wikipedia's ITN is about. Perhaps you should consider working over at Wikinews if that's your thing. The Rambling Man (talk) 23:00, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You derided my remarks way before I mentioned FIFA. I was responding to your sarcasm with more sarcasm. I'm opposed to this for the reasons given, not Messi. "Leave me alone", your remarks were insulting and hurtful, and you totally misunderstood my initial argument. Next time keep your sarasm and your "lolz" off of ITN please. --IP98 (talk) 00:25, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support for RD ticker, unexpected early death (at 26 years old) of a "co-author of an early RSS specification". Seems like a no-brainer for the ticker once the article is improved sufficiently. (I don't even understand Lihaas' oppose, linguistically or logically). I'm not sure the reason for nom was "being an American", either. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:30, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. My immediate thought is "no". But I also think we should wait and see how the news media treats it. The background story, the circumstances and the age perhaps give it more significance than "barely famous computer person dies" - maybe we should allow the BBC et al to be the judge of that. Formerip (talk) 21:34, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose not a major figure. Death not reported as a major front page news outside of anglosaxon papers so far Italy, France (only in the quick news ticker), France (minor news toward the bottom), Ireland, Spain, Germany, India, India. Let's save RD ticker for major, notable figures and remember that we should aim to cover all subjects and not be biased towards IT and the Web. SnowolfHow can I help?21:43, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Just as a point of information, it's being reported in La Monde's homepage, far from "minor news toward the bottom", very much in the top 1/4 of the homepage. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:56, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for both Not notable enough under usual measurements so can't possibly be allowed on the front page. Very, very minor "interest group". Not carried on many news sources in a significant place. doktorbwordsdeeds21:46, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Further comment. News isn't carried everywhere instantly. I see that this is now on the homepages of Le Monde, El Mundo and La Stampa, for example. Formerip (talk) 21:52, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As nominator I might suggest we wait until some facts become known. It's on the front page of the BBC already; it might get carried more broadly. However, even if the fact that the non English language media don't cover this turns out to be true, those media ALL use RSS which Swartz co-developed.--Johnsemlak (talk) 21:54, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose for either, regardless of the continued, baseless, racist Anti-Americanism that no admin seems to care to address. The guy seems to have been "notable" as a serial petty thief, not someone recognized as at the top of any field or close to it. μηδείς (talk) 23:45, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
'Support' for actual item, not merely RD ticker. Hugely influential activist who died young; that alone should be sufficient, idiotic claims of "anti-Americanism" or "not a major figure" notwithstanding. --Calton | Talk00:35, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support for RD ticker as nominator. It's had enough global coverage and I think the co-developer of RSS is pretty notable. Plus the death at the young age.--Johnsemlak (talk) 02:11, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support RD Not so much as a software engineer, but as an online activist. His death is gaining wide global coverage ("widely regarded as a very important figure in his field"). At least in addition to those mentioned earlier a front page scoop in newspapers from Sweden to Australia and from India to Canada. --hydrox (talk) 02:37, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No, it probably would not be an option. It's not a new article, and a massive amount of expansion would be required to bring it up to meet the 5x expansion requirement.SpencerT♦C02:50, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have read the article, but I stand corrected. I was just looking at bytes in the page history to guesstimate the amount of prose in the article, and I did not check the initial amount of prose when the new flurry of editing was occurring. This is the article when improvement started so this might possibly be eligible for DYK given enough expansion. SpencerT♦C06:30, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Still 8kb of prose away from being big enough; that means it needs to nearly double in size within the next three or four days. Like I say, not really an option. GRAPPLEX20:43, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ticker OK, blurb no. A case where heavy internet-users (a group that overlaps significantly with wiki editors) are likely to be more interested than the general public. LukeSurltc12:01, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This really should never even have been posted, but was for the exact reason Luke gave. Any objective assay rules against an upgrade. The guy was associated with things that were associated with things, and his biggest claim to fame was 4 million petty thefts. μηδείς (talk) 04:41, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Does one assess the suitability of an individual death for ITN objectively (by surveying reliable sources) or subjectively (by personally assessing the merits of the deceased)? I guess it's not an either or, but there has to be a threshold where the objective evidence (the sheer amount of news coverage) should to some degree preempt our editors' subjective assessment of the topic. Though I kind of agree that there wasn't so much actual concrete technical merits to his name, his death still received a very considerable global news coverage. Which puts it In the news. --hydrox (talk) 18:03, 15 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
support the entire conflict was otable (for the interim even higher headlines than Syria) and this is better late than neverLihaas (talk) 21:21, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Question SHould we link to the Seleka coalition (also the agreement was with the po0litical opposition as well), led to dissolution of assembly. Maybe we should revisit the blurb?
Séléka Coalition is currently a redlink so there's nothing to link to (I'd obviously prefer using that instead of "rebels" if there was a suitable enough article), and also we can't post every single part of the compromise in the blurb. The coalition government is being created now, and those general elections will be occurring later within the year. Also the elections article is just a copy/paste from the conflict article and doesn't really add anything new to the blurb. We can post the election when it occurs. SpencerT♦C02:58, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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Article:Large quasar group (talk·history·tag) Blurb: A large quasar group, the largest known structure in the universe, is discovered. (Post) Alternative blurb: A collection of supermassive black holes over four billion light years across, is discovered, which theoretically challenges existing cosmological models. News source(s):Fox News, The Huffington Post Credits:
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I'll assume you are joking that a former treas sec actually is like an injun scalping people from horseback. But if you aren't, you'll hafta 'splain yerself. μηδείς (talk) 23:22, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
To you, maybe. He was prime minister for nearly three years. Was he not famous during that time? And the term you're looking for is "chancellor" – "treas sec" is meaningless. Kindly do some research next time. 91.125.81.135 (talk) 11:04, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support I want to support this but I don't think the content is ready for it. If "large quasar group" is an existing theory, it needs an article to flesh out the 5Ws covered for that topic, with a subsection for this particular large quasar group. I see how it's a big deal, but to go the the main page the article has to inform and hopefully interest the drive-by reader, not baffle them. I'm totally unqualified to do the required work myself. --IP98 (talk) 23:35, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Not least because a scattered formation of 73 quasars cannot sensibly be called an 'object', but also because I'd be willing to bet that the margins of error for the size of this thing and the Sloan Great Wall overlap. And also because this doesn't seem like headline news, except to deep-field specialists. AlexTiefling (talk) 00:13, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose. Much as I like astronomy stories (and was actually involved in the PR for this announcement), it's a very technical subject. The theory of large-scale structure is poorly constrained as it is, so an object which is 'too large' by a small factor isn't going to revolutionise our understanding of cosmology. This story is of interest to astronomers, and cosmologists in particular, but not so much to the general encyclopaedia reader. There are all sorts of subtle observational effects that affect the result. Also, the article doesn't distinguish between LQGs as a general class, and this particular LQG. Modest Geniustalk19:05, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose As hinted above, the definition of what has been discovered, and indeed the definition of "discovered", is so inaccurate that putting it on the front page without improving the article seems hasty doktorbwordsdeeds19:16, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Support: I actually just wanted to nominate this myself. This is a significant intervention with foreign troops on the ground + air strikes. One of the top stories in international, English-language news media (see sources above). --RJFF (talk) 21:21, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
PS, we don't even need to say Mali twice: "France commits troops to aid government forces in the Northern Mali conflict" is even meilleur. μηδείς (talk) 23:19, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Image? Should we add an image of Sévaré which seems to be close to the current centre of fighting and the place where the French troops landed? File:Sevare panneau.jpg for example. A crossroads is even quite symbolic for the conflict. --RJFF (talk) 00:26, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose its only rhetoric, no boots on the ground. Meanwhile, in CAR a peace deal was signed with a call for election in a year and a dissolution of the assembly..Lihaas (talk) 01:23, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The capture of Konna by the rebels - who have imposed strict Sharia Islamic law in northern Mali - had caused panic among residents in the towns of Mopti and Sevare, 60 km (40 miles) to the south. Calm returned, however, after residents reported Western soldiers and foreign military aircraft arriving late on Thursday at Sevare's airport - the main one in the region.
Comment. It seems that between nomination and posting, the article was moved to "Mali conflict", which is obviously not a great title (it fails WP:CRITERIA in terms of precision). That's being discussed on the article talkpage, but maybe we could amend out blurb by adding the word "current", which would make it read a little better. Formerip (talk) 17:08, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
A gunman opened fire inside a classroom of Taft Union High School in Taft, California. A 16-year-old student was critically wounded, and another student was shot at but was not injured. The gunman surrendered after the classroom's teacher ordered him to drop his weapon. The teacher also suffered minor injuries after being struck by a shotgun pellet. A 16-year-old student, the suspected gunman, was arrested. (CNN)
Nominator's comments: seems significant probably aimed to disrupt peace talks - The French interior minister said the deaths were "without doubt an execution". EdwardLane (talk) 11:49, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support Given the fact that the organisation is active in the whole region of Kurdistan, which covers more than a country, the assassination seems to be of persons leading a party of much importance. In addition, it's not so common to see such things happening in Paris and it surely adds extra plus to its notability.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 13:14, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have no idea what your alphabet soup means, FIP, but I think Drmies's point is - to put words in his mouth - that there is a missing "updater" (creator) parameter in the form above. LadyofShalott00:34, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's comments: Being called "one of the deadliest days in recent years" in Pakistan. Four bombs, two in both Quetta (80+ dead) and Mingora (20+). Death toll is unconfirmed and floating from source to source, but it's accepted that it's exceeding 100. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk)00:37, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The blurb seems to be stylistically not appropriate with bolded article in front of the message. Change into something like "More than 100 people are killed and 270 injured in several bomb blasts in Pakistan." makes more sense to me.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 13:21, 11 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Retired British businessman Christopher Tappin is sentenced to 33 months in prison by a U.S. court after pleading guilty to selling weapon parts to Iran. (BBC)
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
As we generally confine anniversaries (and even then, usually 10 or 100-year ones to OTD), I suggest the nominator withdraw.--WaltCip (talk) 22:55, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Seven years is not a long run for a radio show. 'Monumental' is a preposterous overstatement. When the Grand Ole Opry marks its 100th year of broadcasting (in 2025) perhaps we'll mention that. (And even then, probably not in ITN, because as WaltCip correctly notes, anniversaries are not news.) ETA: Apparently Lørdagsbarnetimen predates the Grand Ole Opry by just under a year, making it the longest-running radio show that's still going. AlexTiefling (talk) 23:08, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment to nominator: While we posted the ending of the longest running drama in television history (Guiding Light), anniversaries are more suitable for WP:OTD (though generally they are restricted to significant, rounder numbered anniversary years). Best, SpencerT♦C01:54, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's comments: He was a well-known economist and winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics in 1986. His extensive contribution to the public choice theory is considered fundamental in this sub-field, and his name is generally included in most of the academic works pertaining fundamentals of economics. --Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 15:35, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The article has only be updated by three senetences so far. A comment on his importance from a couple noted financial papers should help. μηδείς (talk) 18:07, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support I have added comments from US and European sources calling the Nobel Laureate the leader of public choice theory for a generation and the "Founder of the New Political Economy" which makes his standing and influence in the field clear. μηδείς (talk) 19:16, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose It has long been established that "merely" being a Nobel laureate is not a pass to ITN. I see no evidence of bringing the subject to the wider public, low page viewer stats, no coverage of death outside obits columns and business columns. In short, no non-specialist interest evident, so little grounds for inclusion. Kevin McE (talk) 23:11, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
And why exactly would that be relevant and not original research/synthesis? If there is no wide coverage of his person in reliable sources, then he's not that important. If his biography has very low page viewer stats, then he's probably not a widely-known individual who belongs on the front page. Mocctur (talk) 04:19, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose. He is not a Nobel laurate and in any event merely being a Nobel laureate (or in his case: A Sveriges Riksbank laureate) doesn't mean that one's death is ITN material. Vast amounts of people have received these prizes and we post it when they receive their prize, not when they die. The treshold for posting deaths is much higher, usually only heads of state or extremely famous people get posted. Before his death, this guy's biography had around 100 readers a day (compared to 16,000 on average for Albert Einstein, a long dead scientist). 100 readers a day is what relatively obscure people's biographies get. (if we limit comparison to economists, John Maynard Keynes, also long since dead, has around 2,000 daily views on average). Mocctur (talk) 04:06, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Well that's...interesting, maybe you should write the Nobel Committee and tell them your opinion of their handing out those prizes? In any case, he's been nominated not merely on the Nobel win, but on the accolades of his peers and the press for creating a whole branch/school of economics. As for heads of state, this is an RD nomination. He doesn't have to be a head of state who dies in office in order just to get a ticker notice. μηδείς (talk) 04:21, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
He hasn't won any Nobel. Maybe you should write to the Nobel family with your new information that he has received one of their 5 prizes? There is no such thing as "the Nobel Committee" that is involved in the Riksbanken Prize, there are 5 separate Nobel Committees selecting the recipients of the prizes established by the Nobel family and they have nothing to do with the Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences, and the Nobel family has expliticly forbidden the use of the term Nobel prize in connection with this completely unrelated prize. In any event, for a supposedly super-famous scientist (as we must assume as his death is nominated to be featured on ITN), his biography is extremely lacking and short. Mocctur (talk) 04:24, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose We established two things recently - Nobel Prizes do not automatically mean notability, and death ticker does not mean lowering standards. Both those issues are important here. doktorbwordsdeeds05:39, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't suppose being a nobel laureate was ever specified as a reason not to post, merely that it is not of itself sufficient reason to oppose. I opposed, but relative novelty of her sex and nationality among science laureates/ITNRD nominees, and her centenarian status, were used to argue for inclusion. Precedent does not obligate us. Kevin McE (talk) 11:05, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
So we don't post the death of a world-renowned and notable economist, because some users want to illustrate the point that the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences is not a 'real' Nobel Prize? He was a distinguished and influential economist with or without Nobel Prize. Having received one of the most prestigious awards that someone in his field can win is certainly an additional point, although it is not the only criterion. Support obviously, and remind others that this is not for a full blurb, but only for recent deaths. The criteria are notability and significant update. The article has been updated sufficiently and in his field, Buchanan was clearly of high notability. --RJFF (talk) 00:13, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
We don't post if the only reason we are given to post is an award (at best) no higher in status than a Nobel prize, given that we have a long standing consensus that nobel laureate status is not sufficient to mandate posting. If you wish to present evidence of a public profile and impact much higher than that of the "typical" laureate, you might change people's opinion: that is the purpose of discussion and debate. Kevin McE (talk) 11:05, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Support - This news must be appeared in "In the News" for it must arrest the attention of wide community and should be discussed for of its importance regarding the human rights. Upali Giniwelle (talk) 15:22, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I think this a shocking case, and questions should be asked in the legislatures of the western powers as to why they continue to regard this barbarous regime as an ally. However, Wikipedia is not the place to right great wrongs, so let's keep the discussion here focussed on whether this is a genuinely major news story, rather than whether it's a genuinely grotesque abuse of human rights (which it obviously is). AlexTiefling (talk) 15:27, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support posting, oppose current blurb First, the statement "Asian Human Rights Commission has ruled that Nafeek's case has received the most attention from International human rights" does not belong. The years don't belong. I'm also concerned by the statement "unintentional homicide". While it may have been unintentional, it seems that she was not executed for unintentional homicide. Per [69] she was "beheaded for smothering the infant after an argument with the child's mother in the town of al-Dwadmi.". (Wording of the Saudi Interior Ministry). How can we word this to make it clear that she was beheaded for what was considered intentional by the courts, but unintentional by Sri Lanka and her family? RyanVesey15:39, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Week Oppose posting amounts to a criticism of Saudi Arabia, not praise for the deceased's notable actions. I have suggested a better blurb. The article needs cleanunp for style, grammar and tenses. μηδείς (talk) 18:19, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Regular oppose. This is obviously terrible, tragic and whatever adjectives other editors would like to add. But I'm not seeing what makes it unexpected. Someone being executed for "unintentional homicide" would be something we could post, but that doesn't seem accurate AFAICT. Neither of the proposed blurbs is neutral, BTW. Formerip (talk) 18:37, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I assume you mean mention of the protests is unbalanced? Could just drop that and go with "Sri-Lankan Rizana Nafeek is executed in Saudia Arabia for the death when she was 17 of an infant under her care." But without mentioning the protests readers will be clueless as to why this was posted. μηδείς (talk) 18:46, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, I think mentioning protests is fine (have they been "international", though?). My problem with your version is that is makes it seem as if she was convicted under some sort of negligence law. Formerip (talk) 19:02, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not exactly convinced this has been in the news enough recently to merit inclusion. The BBC's article is from 11 AM this morning, but an ebb in the wildfires in Australia is currently bigger news on its Asia page (this doesn't even make its front page). It is not on NYT World at all. I might be convinced by the culmination of coverage over time. Obviously it's front page news for Amnesty International.--Chaser (talk) 19:20, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Right now the blurb says "international protest" referring to an appeal by the Sri Lankan government for clemency. I do see the issue with describing the execution being for the death of the infant. I am not familiar with consensus over her guilt. If we say was executed after being found guilty of murdering the infant in her care we are being strictly factual, but quite overlong for a blurb. I think a safe compromise is "Despite international protest, Sri-Lankan maid Rizana Nafeek, then 17, is executed in Saudia Arabia for killing an infant in her care." OH, I see I didn't upload the other altblurb, so I have moved this to the template. μηδείς (talk) 21:28, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I agree with FormerIP. I can't see how we can be neutral and unbiased by posting this story, the emotive elements of which can be seen clearly at the start of this nomination. doktorbwordsdeeds21:42, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Both blurbs fail to be neutral or accurate/precise, and attempt to force emotive language in order to demonstrate the notability of this story. The subject was convicted and executed under Saudi law. Posting this is akin to showcasing the execution of an American death row inmate, which we would never do (or at least ought not to).--WaltCip (talk) 22:10, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You may notice that I have opposed the nomination myself. It might help for you to suggest a more neutral blurb, because it may go up even despite our opposition. μηδείς (talk) 22:51, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
ITN discussions are not headcounts, and a number of support !votes are of those essentially saying we have a moral obligation to post stories like this -- which we do not. We are not a news ticker, and we are certainly not the Human Rights Watch.--WaltCip (talk) 22:58, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hey, all I suggested was that you propose a better blurb if you have a problem with both the ones that have been proposed, which is what you said. I have done that plenty of times, updated articles or suggested better blurbs for nominations I have opposed or no supported. I hope peopl realize that we can do that, that we can work objectively to influence the project in a good way even if we oppose a certain decision? Indenting to lecture me about 'not a vote' is kind of way beyond the point. μηδείς (talk) 02:16, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Leaning support normally this has little impact, however the case seems so unusual that ITN might be appropriate. However, I personally don't understand what did the Saudis say, why did they behead her exactly? Why did they ignore international pleads? The article leaves lots of questions unanswered for such an unusual case. Nergaal (talk) 22:56, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Righteous indignation is not grounds for ITN inclusion. Repugnant as many might find capital punishment, or capital sentences for offences as a minor (in one's own jurisdiction), this is in accordance with Saudi law. So the story boils down to "Laws of Saudi Arabia applied in case that arises in Saudi Arabia". We certainly should not be presenting defence claims that were not upheld by the court as though they are irrefutable fact. A tragic story, but we not an Amnesty bulletin. Kevin McE (talk) 23:26, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per the reasons given by others; this is not the forum to publicize actions against human rights around the world. Unfortunately, this sort of thing happens more often than not. 331dot (talk) 02:46, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You seem to be rather umfamiliar with the facts. Or perhaps you can name some 17-year-old girls (at the time of the crime of which they were convicted) who have been executed in the US? μηδείς (talk) 04:39, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. This person is notable only for their execution. Whilst a deplorable act, executions aren't that unusual, not even executions of other countries' citizens. As far as I can tell there has been little interest or reaction beyond Sri Lanka - whilst that isn't a reason to reject the item, it does point to a lack of significance. I'm also concerned about the apparent vote stacking (support votes without any real reason given) by editors who have otherwise never been involved in ITN. Modest Geniustalk23:08, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Although I agree with AutomaticStrikeOut that the death penalty has its benefits, this is a clear case where it should not have been imposed or even considered. YuMaNuMaContrib02:14, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I am tempted to oppose this, but if the article can be restored with a five sentence update on her importance and notability it might fly. The lack of sources beyond the Advocate and The Huffington Post may be a problem, though.μηδείς (talk) 03:14, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose RD items should have a standalone article and based on the discussion Hot Stop mentioned, it seems as though Manford was not notable enough to merit a standalone article. SpencerT♦C05:53, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have to object strongly to this pretended new "pre-existing standalone article" criterion. The interweb is hugely recentist. The fact that unemployed twenty-somethings in their momma's basements haven't made an article about something yet implies that the summum bonum of human knowledge is video games and soccer players. That being said, a five-sentence update is still not too much to ask for, is it? μηδείς (talk)
Barring extremely notable circumstances that lead to someones death, if someone's not notable enough for their own article while they're alive they're certainly not notable enough to be featured on the death ticker. There are about 600,000 living individuals with their own articles on Wikipedia right now; surely if she was truly notable enough an article would have existed before she died. Hot Stop(Talk)06:50, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This is not a "new "pre-existing standalone article" criterion"; see Wikipedia:ITN/DC#Deaths which states that "the article as a whole must be B-class and/or be satisfactorily filled out with no major omissions of the person's life and effect." An article doesn't exist that even comes close to fulfilling these criteria and based on that judgement, I don't believe one can be made in time for possible posting. That said, I do understand your point about not having an article, but I disagree that a 5-sentence update to the PFLAG article (if I interpreted what you said correctly) would be worthy of posting to RD. SpencerT♦C01:06, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The central crux of ITN is to direct people from the front page to an article. This person is clearly not notable as an article would have been created. I condemn most strongly the uncivil and personal attacks from Medeis, another example of their disrespect and rudeness doktorbwordsdeeds14:22, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Apparently citing recentism--see our article on wikipedia and its statistics [71]; that 90% of contributors are male, 75% under the age of 30, 70% single, 90% have no child--struck a nerve. I think opposing a blurb on a 92 year-old woman whose fame dates before 1990 because our readership hasn't gotten around to writing an article on it yet strengthens a pernicious bias. μηδείς (talk) 18:41, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it was the tone of writing you used when citing recentism, for example referring people who opposed the nomination as "unemployed twenty-somethings in their momma's basements" was probably over the line. Again, it's not the truth behind the point you are trying to make, it's the specific word choice you use in making that point that makes the difference between a neutral observation and a rude insult. Even more troubling is the obtuse way you seem to refuse to recognize the difference when confronted with this. --Jayron3221:43, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That's entirely false, Jayron. I did not describe the people opposing this nomination as unemployed, etc. Please reread what I said. I am also certainly not following any anti-American editors from thread to thread talking false offense at what they have said or I can imagine they might say. μηδείς (talk) 22:49, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That's a really disappointing "Oh, yeah...well!"-type response, especially from you, Jayron, as an admin and one of the better thinkers here. Please just look at who's following whom from thread to thread here with their attacks and if you won't act at least don't tell me I deserve false blame anyway. μηδείς (talk) 05:34, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
In a fifth night of protests in Belfast, protestors throw rocks, "missiles", and petrol bombs at police, with law enforcement responding with water cannons and plastic bullets. (BBC)
The Malian army used artillery on Islamist rebels in Gnimignama in the first skirmish between the two belligerents since April 2012, when Islamist and Tuareg rebels first assumed control of the region. (BBC)
India claims two of its soldiers have been killed during a gunfight with Pakistani forces in the Indian-controlled portion of Kashmir. This report comes two days after Pakistan made a similar claim of the death of one of its troops due to an Indian cross-border operation in the disputed region. (Reuters)
AIG, the insurance giant that has recently paid the U.S. treasury back funds it received on "too big to fail" grounds in 2008, says that it may join a lawsuit against the U.S. for the supposedly harsh nature of the bailout terms. (Reuters)
A new inquest begins into the death of British singer Amy Winehouse after it was discovered that the original coroner was not qualified to conduct the inquiry. A second inquiry into Winehouse's death concludes that the singer died of alcohol poisoning. (AFP via France 24)(CNN)
That is a completely different item. There was consensus when that was nominated to wait until a peace deal was agreed upon or if the rebels took over Bangui. SpencerT♦C01:44, 10 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Pope Benedict XVI addresses ambassadors and diplomats from nearly 180 countries gathered in the Apostolic Palace’s Sala Regia. They are present for the Pope’s traditional address to members of the diplomatic corps who are accredited to the Holy See. Pope Benedict urges an end to the “slaughter” in Syria and stresses the “grave responsibility” to work for peace around the world. (Catholic News Agency)
Law and crime
A court in Delhi, India, charges five men with the murder of a 23-year-old woman who was gang-raped on a bus in Delhi on December 16, 2012. (BBC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nominator's comments: I know this is perennially nominated, and it has not passed the past four years that it has been nominated but there has not been consensus to post before (this does not mean there has been consensus not to post). Although there is a good chance that this nomination will not have consensus to post, I firmly believe that consensus can change, so I nominate this for the following reasons:
The first American football game ever played was between two college teams, so college football has a history, legacy and cultural effect that are longer than that of the NFL and professional football [72]
The college American football industry is a multibillion dollar industry, and the BCS national championship is the most-expensive "gemstone" of this industry [73]
In terms of the local economic impact (excluding TV and other consumption related to the national championship outside of where the game is being played, it is estimated at $400 million. [74]
One of Notre Dame's regular season games (vs. Navy) was played in another country [75]
It has been projected that this national championship game will be the most-watched game in the history of college football, and the game is being broadcast on television internationally [77] and [78].
The BCS national championship trophy is made by an Irish artist and is made of Waterford Crystal, which is distinctly Irish. [79]
Oppose College games are not the highest level this sport is played at, and that's that. Rugby originated at Rugby School, but we don't post secondary school Rugby games. Things like the craftsmanship of the trophy are of vanishing insignificance to the notability of the tournament. AlexTiefling (talk) 23:27, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support per Spencer's excellent nomination. Unfortunately this college sports issue is perennially debated here with no pathway to a consensus. I certainly understand that users outside of North America find US college sports befuddling. I think one of the best arguments that can be made is that for all the flaws of college sports, there is a parochial passion to its fans that is similar to the find of passion you find in European soccer and which you don't generally find in professional sports in the US.--Johnsemlak (talk) 23:32, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support Johnsemlak is right that these college programs bring on some of the most incredible fan devotion you can witness (the sheer unwillingness of Penn State fans to see the fault in Paterno's behavior being a chief example). Just travel in the southern US and talk to locals about the nearby college football programs. And kudos to Spencer for a well thought out and clear nomination. I was going to oppose, but then I noticed that the 2010 and 2011 NCAA Men's Division I Basketball Tournaments were posted after the championship game, and college basketball is closely analogous to college football. The 2012 tournament wasn't posted, though, which shows there is no 100% consensus on how to treat college sports in the US. I'm leaning support based on Spencer, Johnsemlak, and the 2010 & 2011 NCAA basketball championships. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:42, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Strong oppose any and all university-level sport items. We have this discussion several times per year, and every time it gets shot down. I've explained my opposition to such items many times, so won't bother to repeat it all. This is a non-professional game, open to university teams only, and isn't even the final of a competition - the participants are chosen via some opaque and arbitrary 'ranking'. Yes, consensus can change, but can we please stop nominating these on the off chance that buying enough lottery tickets will result in one instance where ITN/C wasn't paying attention? Modest Geniustalk23:46, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - A nicely done nomination, but I'm afraid for me the fairly standard objections as discussed above outweigh the rationale in favour. LukeSurltc23:54, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Withdrawing the nomination as nominator. This obviously won't be posted, so there's no need to waste more time on this. I guess my whole point of the nomination was to point out the major economic effect of the game (as opposed to the same rehashed arguments about college football not being the top level of the sport), but I think it's clear that simply considering money isn't a good way to gauge the notability of a sports championship. SpencerT♦C00:49, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Nominator's comments: As FIFA are the governing body of world association football, this is the most authoritative selection as to the best player in the world (the award used to be called "FIFA World Player of the Year" before it merged with a French award). While there are several soccer ITN/R items, these all relate to clubs or nations. This is the most definative award regarding individual achievement in the world's most popular sport. --LukeSurltc20:32, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
OpposeStrongest possible oppose with every fiber of my being recurring event, not on ITN/R, with no indication that this was unexpected or significant. The award only has a WP article for 2012, 2011 and 2010. The 2010 article is marked as "Low-Importanace" for wikiproject:football. Yes Messi kicked a ball into the net lots of times, but so what? He won the award in 2011 and 2010 as well. We could just as easily nominate Heisman trophy winners, MBA MVP, and whatever the NHL version of it is, to name just a few. --IP98 (talk) 21:54, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It's a popularity contest for crying out loud. Selected by a secret vote from coaches, captains and "sports writers". LOL! Someone please put a bullet in this thing. --IP98 (talk) 01:51, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, but no one is promoting the Heisman Trophy or the Hart Trophy. This is being paraded around as "the top award from the top body of the most popular sport in the world" but it's not FIFA making the selection at all, it's a sampling of sports writers, coaches and captains. --IP98 (talk) 02:04, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
But don't they do that on behalf of FIFA? If it's just a bunch of coaches and writers getting together on their own and saying someone is the best player, then you would have a point there. But isn't this FIFA asking these people to select someone? 331dot (talk) 02:20, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Doesn't make it any less of a popularity contest, or give it any more exceptional value. This isn't being awarded by the "top governing body" of the sport, but rather a secret cabal of writers, coaches and players. It's FIFA branded, but that's all. --IP98 (talk) 03:42, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Any award like that is a "popularity contest". It might be a "secret cabal" but it is still one selected by FIFA and since it's their award they can decide how it is awarded. That is certainly different than people doing it on their own. 331dot (talk) 11:22, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You mean the Hart Memorial Trophy. I'm also leaning oppose because I'm not sure about the overall prestige of this award, since it's only in its third year and has gone to the same player all three times. In fact, the second and third place finishers are pretty stable as well. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:00, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
IP98, I nominated the event for ITN/R, but was told that it would need to pass ITN/C before it could be considered there. So opposing on the basis that it isn't on ITN/R is somewhat Catch-22 (there's a guideline to that exact effect in the box above). The reason the award only has three yearly pages is because it has only existed for those three years. The two awards that merged to form it both have annual pages (see Ballon d'Or 2009 and 2009 FIFA World Player of the Year etc.). LukeSurltc22:14, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That argument was really made? That doesn't make any sense. I don't usually follow WT:ITNR so I didn't see it. I stand by my oppose though. --IP98 (talk) 22:48, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
ITN/R is made to eradicate the nomination process for recurring events that always get consensus to post. Of course, in order for us to know if it is indeed worthy of that label, it would have to have had consensus to post at least once. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk)00:04, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This isn't the place, but, wouldn't it just be easier to to just post a nom to ITN/R and let it get !voted up or down there? If it has to pass ITN/C once, it's likely to get inconsistent piecemeal coverage year over year, depending on the whims of the editors currently participating at ITN. --IP98 (talk) 00:09, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's a matter of exposure. True consensus happens here, while at WT:ITN/R, it feels more like a back-room deal. If we're going to make it secretive, we might as well make sure it isn't controversial. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk)23:05, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support if the NFL lockout got posted which is relevant to one country, I am not sure how an international award in the most widely watched sport on the planet can get any serious opposes. Nergaal (talk) 21:58, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
(1) NHL, which is relevant to the US and Canada as hosts of teams and all of the European countries that see their best hockey players compete in it; (2) A lockout and an award are apples and oranges. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:00, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Reply thats NHL lockout not NFL and it has wide interest in Canada, the United States, Russia, Finland, Norway, Demark and Sweden to name a few. Secondly, I am sick and tired of hearing about how football is "the most popular sport in the world" and that rationale is supposed to justify every insignificant nomination. --IP98 (talk) 22:02, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Suggestion for all those who can't be bothered to note the difference between NFL and NHL: There is a difference. --IP98 (talk) 22:42, 7 January 2013 (UTC)8[reply]
@Nergall--I do support this nom but the notability of the Ballon D'or prior to 2009 is shaky. Only Europeans were eligible, and Pele and Maradona (two players North Americans have heard of) never won it, that despite the fact that Maradona played in Europe.--Johnsemlak (talk) 04:14, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Weak oppose, not because it's about soccer (certainly a sport with worldwide appeal) but because I haven't seen other similar awards posted(MVP awards in the NFL, NBA, etc., Heisman Trophy, etc.) though I'm willing to be corrected if I am wrong. 331dot (talk) 22:08, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Unlike other MVP awards that are more notable, this one is awarded across MULTIPLE leagues, not just a single league (technically the pool base is much higher here than any other sports award). Nergaal (talk) 22:13, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support It's the most prestigious individual award given to a footballer, and as stated above it's a global award. It's certainly got a lot of flaws but it's still high profile enough to post. Yes, we don't normally post MVP awards but this is unique in that it is awarded by the global sporting body of the sport and it's the most popular sport in the world.--Johnsemlak (talk) 22:42, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Reply There are already 5 association football stories on ITN/R for a year, so thats plenty of football trivia for the worlds "most popular sport". We haven't posted previous Baloon d'Or, or World Footballer of the Year, or European footballer of the year or whatever other name it's had. Messi got posted when he broke that record back in May, so Messi has had his 15 minutes of ITN fame. Enough Lionel Messi please. --IP98 (talk) 22:46, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Soccer is by far the world's most popular sport, this is by far its most important award, and it's for the whole world in the most global sport. It's not a convincing oppose reason that we don't bring some regional awards in smaller sports. Add to the blurb that it's the fourth consecutive time Messi wins. Two prizes were merged in 2010 but Messi won both of them in 2009 and lots of reliable sources say fourth consecutive (many of them would probably also say it if he had only won 2009 FIFA World Player of the Year and not also Ballon d'Or 2009). He is the only player to win either of them four times. PrimeHunter (talk) 22:44, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
5 ITNR events for football isn't that much considering there are, last time I checked, 5 marathons, 5 golf events, etc. I agree we should be wary of posting too much football, I think we're getting it about right. Football-related nominations are often rejected.--Johnsemlak (talk) 23:41, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
They're rejected but only after beating back a flood of "this is the most popular sport in the world" and "top competition from top governing body therefore news" supports. The only reason that it's gotten this much coverage is because of Messi's goal scoring streak, but we posted his record, this adds nothing new, and sets the precedent that every MVP award for a top governing body in a major sport should be posted. --IP98 (talk) 23:59, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Support because elected as the better player of the World 4 consecutive years by the world sport jornalists, what else you need?.--Feroang (talk) 01:23, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment What else do we need? Better argued support votes, generally. Please don't assume your preferred outcome is a foregone conclusion. AlexTiefling (talk) 01:25, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Sports writers?!? Really? This most prestigious award, given to the top player in the top tier by the top governing body, is selected by a bunch of sports writers?!? We're heaping support on the sports illustrated footballer of the year?!? Really?? I see some coaches and captains now vote as well. So there isn't some prestigious FIFA panel carefully selecting the top player based on evaluating an openly documented criteria, it's a popularity poll! I'm adjusting my !vote above accordingly. --IP98 (talk) 01:50, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Shows categories but not who picked him or the rationale. The issue here is that this is being shopped around as the "most prestigious award given by the top governing body of the most popular sport in the world" when really it's a secret ballot of anonymous coaches, players and "sports writers". It's branded FIFA but it's a far cry from having the sort of gravitas that is being suggested here. --IP98 (talk) 03:40, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You have 15 posts in this discussion. We know your view by now. Maybe you are used to sports with other award processes but voting is common in football and I haven't heard of anybody else who detracts from this official FIFA award because of the process chosen and controlled by FIFA. I think the award would generally be considered less prestigious if it was decided by a small FIFA panel, and Messi would probably have won with almost any process. PrimeHunter (talk) 06:23, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The problem here is that it's only considered "prestigious" because it is FIFA. The FIFA MVP award is OMFG support and everything else is lesser. Because there is some international overseer of "association football", it's supposed to be the definitive "best player in the world", but really, it was an obvious pick by a secret cabal of sports writers, coaches and captains. It's totally absurd to think that this is anything more than a FIFA popularity contest. All over the place we see "if we could post the end of a strike with 'limited international reach' then holy f%!*ing s#!@t we can post the FIFA MVP award". As if there was any comparison! It's like, the opinion of the supports is that if the opposes only "understood how amazingly important football is, and FIFA, and this award" then they would understand. Convince me! All the supports said was "very important, obvious support". Get real. Chinas rail network is infinately more important than this idiotic award and it got bumped for this. I think it's time I took a break for a while. Can't get the national elections of San Marino to the main page, but you can get a fucking football award. --IP98 (talk) 11:37, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
However little I personally care for football, I care even less for your contempt towards those who find it highly culturally important. Perhaps you should take a break from taking ITN so seriously? Honestly, who dies if a football award is mentioned on a website homepage? Calm down. AlexTiefling (talk) 12:49, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support Not just a run-of-the-mill award, getting coverage worldwide. Without getting too parochial or WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, if the end of a strike in a sport with limited international reach is notable, so is this. Black Kite (talk) 07:03, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Posting. There seems to be more support for posting than the opposition, the article is in good shape, the timer will start going red any time soon and there are no other stories here that look at least close to get posted. --Tone11:19, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Without arguing whether or not the supports outweigh the opposes, since when does "the timer will start going red any time soon and there are no other stories here that look at least close to get posted" mean that we should push something up for the sake of it? – Muboshgu (talk) 16:41, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I think Tone may have over-emphasized that aspect in his posting reason, as I feel there was enough support regardless, but there is a need to be cognizant of the fact that there was a two-week-old item on ITN. These petty arguments about notability need to be put in context. -- tariqabjotu16:46, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Pull the current blurb, support if it mentions that he's won the award for a record fourth time. A recognition of the best player in a sport is not something so special that merits inclusion, but winning the award for a record time inputs some small plus to its importance.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 12:30, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
That's fair, but we still need to agree on whether to improve it or not. Most of the news emphasize the notability of his record-breaking fourth consecutive award, and it's even likely to deduce that the excessive coverage compared to the previous years might be generated from this achievement.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 12:57, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The reason I didn't put it being his fourth award when I originally nominated is because it's slightly arbritary whether its his third or fourth award; it's his third FIFA Ballon d'Or, but he also won the (non-FIFA) Ballon d'Or in 2009 before the merging of awards metamorphised it into its current incarnation. It's difficult to communicate this nuance in a single sentance, and brevity is generally a good thing in blurbs. --LukeSurltc13:00, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If only it were true that women's athletics and female actors were hugely overshadowed by their male counterparts; I seem to recall Jessica Ennis and Victoria Pendleton being the faces of this year's summer olympics, and did someone say Meryl Streep several times over? Try being less knee-jerk in your reactions and actually be realistic for a second. Thanks. GRAPPLEX04:46, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
We don't include Best Actor, so I'm not sure why we would have Best Actress. Also, we do post the results of some Women's Olympic events, and I don't have a problem with that. My comment was exclusive to football (soccer). Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 05:07, 9 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's comments: High profile nomination to a high profile post of international significance. I will be working to add reactions to the nomination to the article, as it looks to be controversial given his withdrawal from consideration for the same job in Obama's first term. Jusdafax19:05, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose We basically don't do standard cabinet level appointments, no reason why these should be any exception. Anything below VP or Speaker (as second in line to the US president) is just too local a matter. μηδείς (talk) 19:10, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - There are people all over the world who would disagree with you, 331dot, about the CIA leadership and subsequent policy being "a local matter." Jusdafax19:45, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It is a local US matter, as CIA policy is ultimately directed by the POTUS; the CIA Director merely carries out his policies. Also, I'm still fairly new here but I haven't seen cabinet posts or agency heads posted here often, if at all. If we have the habit of posting the Treasury Secretary, Secretary of State, Chancellor of the Exchequer, etc., then maybe, but I would likely oppose those as well. 331dot (talk) 20:49, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously lots of things lots of people do have widespread actions, perhaps 'parochial' would have been a better word than 'local'. Nothing bad about your nomination, Jusdafax, but then logically we'd be listing the secretaries of state, defense and treasury, the UN ambassador, the joint chiefs of staff, homeland security, maybe attorney general, ...you get the point. I can imagine a situation where one such nom might make sense, but this isn't it. μηδείς (talk) 20:53, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose now; maybe reconsider once approved by Senate but even their I don't see this as that important. (and to Medeis' list, I would add SCOTUS judge appointee as the only other critical nom to be considered). --MASEM (t) 19:40, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - I seem to recall we don't generally post wholesale cabinet reshuffles in other major powers (except for the big Chinese one that also produces a new Premier, of course) so there's no compelling reason to post this single appointment either. (As a matter of policy, not just because Other Stuff Exists.) AlexTiefling (talk) 19:45, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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The President of SyriaBashar al-Assad delivers a rare television appearance addressing the Syrian crisis and denounces the Syrian rebels as "enemies of God and puppets of the West". It is his first television appearance since June 2012. (BBC)
Wait until either this is 100% approved (not tentative) or perhaps on the first day of regular play commencing. --MASEM (t) 19:06, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I would support if we did the same for the NFL and NBA lockouts in the last couple seasons. But even in that case, I would post when the deal is ratified. It is exceedingly unlikely that this will not happen, but you never know... Resolute19:06, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support posting (though still, at ratification), per precedent. If we posted resolution of the NBA lockout, this is equally worthy. Resolute20:39, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I'm going to teach our American audience a British phrase now. For crying out loud......For bloody crying out loud........For bloody, ruddy, damn crying out loud, and then some, blimey heck, blooming Hell and wowzers aplenty........I laughed at seeing this nomination, genuinely laughed. Of course it's not suitable for the front page, it's an administrative skermish, at most, amongst a vocal minority within a minority interest sport. Don't tell me it's a high-profile sport, for heaven's sake, because it's not. It's always been a minority interest sport which fails to grab attention, and this is underlined by constant tedious paperwork shuffling like this making it as a "headline" when the rest of the sporting world actually, you know, PLAYS SPORT. Of course I oppose this nomination, I'm duty bound to do so. This is a sport at least, unlike chess, but putting it on the front page would give it so much undeserving "notability" you could suggest calling toilet roll as wallpaper by the same token. doktorbwordsdeeds19:28, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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I happen to oppose this, but you need to seek professional help and stop posting your offensive trolling here. And I ask any admins present, why is this continuous biased attack on Americans allowed? Can we please have a formal warning, if nothing else? μηδείς (talk) 20:17, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You have no right - none at all - to insinuate that I require "professional help", and I ask you to withdraw that remark. If you're trying to call me a "troll", I point you to an entire page worth of heavy sarcasm from you which has been as constructive as wet rice paper. My opposition to this one nomination is not "anti-Americanism" and I suggest you spend a few more days away from the keyboard if you're seeing things through such a blinkered vision doktorbwordsdeeds22:03, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This isn't going to be pretty so can it be taken somewhere else please? There's not much to be gained for the rest of us to have this argument on this page. Perhaps an admin could collapse/delete this sub-thread before it takes up half the page... LukeSurltc22:19, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose It is of interest to some sports fans in US and Canada but outside that regional area of no significance at all. ✍Mtking✉19:53, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support (when "official"). Of essentially total significance to the sport of ice hockey. Support is based on the same rationale that such mid-tier (in an international scale) sports get ITN/R postings, i.e. it's nice to have some slightly specialised things from time to time. Article is reasonably good and the story has an good narrative to it. LukeSurltc20:01, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support per the precedent mentioned by IP98. Canuck89(converse with me) 20:20, January 6, 2013 (UTC)
Oppose. No broader significance, only of interest to "some sports fans in US and Canada" as someone said (and even in the US and Canada, only a minority cares about entertainment sports, let alone hockey). Post it on an appropriate portal or something. Vanasan (talk) 20:36, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
What's most mind-blowing about your comment is the sheer confidence you place in your bafflingly ignorant comment. Some sports fans? A minority? EricLeb01 (Page | Talk)01:35, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Wait until the deal is finalised. It's on the margins of significance, though I tend towards supporting. But only once everything is finalised and a date is set for the first game. Modest Geniustalk20:51, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Whether ITN is "slow" is of no concern. We do not - and should not - care about the colour of the ticker. The nomination is the thing which matters, and this one don't matter doktorbwordsdeeds22:28, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
who said anything about colour of ticker. I said ITNs been really slow lately which is a fact. Opposing every thing does not help. There is always someone who thinks things are not important enough for ITN for almost every single nomination. At this rate we will have month old items on front page. it is your opinion that "this one don't matter", you have said it above multiple times already, we get it. looking at comments there is fairly strong consensus towards posting, just perhaps wait till full resolution. -- Ashish-g5523:10, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It's the first week of January. News is always slow at this time of year. Take a look at most news agencies - they're all struggling for things to talk about. Modest Geniustalk23:18, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
O ya im aware of that hence we need to adjust accordingly. its still better to have some new content on front page rather than holding onto our rather arbitrary importance criteria. If news was plentiful we obviously have luxury of rejecting lot more stuff. -- Ashish-g5523:22, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Modest Genius. Ashishg, you didn't mention the ticker explicitly but that was the point you were making. ITN may look "stale" but that's just the way things are. It doesn't matter that nothing is getting posted, that's fine. We're Wikipedia, not Buzzfeed or Reuters doktorbwordsdeeds23:26, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No i did not mention ticker because that wasnt the point i was making. Im totally ok with waiting till we have full resolution and then posting. ITN is not breaking news. Im saying because things are going slow we need to think accordingly and adjust our so called "importance criteria" so that we have some new stuff on front page. However i think i've re-iterated same point enough times now. So im going to stop talking on this topic now. -- Ashish-g5523:33, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support as the resolution of a long-running labor dispute affecting fans and those dependent on the NHL playing. The NBA lockout ending was apparently posted as well. 331dot (talk) 22:48, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. What on earth is the relevance of this? Did something important happen? No, it's only petty and irrelevant bickering within a sport few people care about and would be US centrism to feature it too. Say, would we be post a similar deal relating to some sport in Kenya? (eg., "the Kenyan Canoeing League and the Kenyan Canoeing Association reach a tentative agreement to end the lockout of athletes.") Mocctur (talk) 23:51, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Probably not Kenyan canoeing, but if all the Kenyan long-distance runners went on strike, then maybe yes, that would have significance. We post things about all sorts of sports here, Sumo and Hurling are two examples of sports that are somewhat geographically limited. LukeSurltc00:10, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support - Both a significant development in an international sport, and a welcome resolution in industrial relations. Claims of solely local interest are unfounded. AlexTiefling (talk) 00:17, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support when official, per prior discussion on beginning of lockout (linked by Bongwarrior). Top (or top 3) news on much of North American sports news sections. US centric? Are you kidding me? This is Canada-centric, if anything – and it isn't so, because Americans are fans of hockey as well. I'd back my full support behind any lockout of the top league of most sports, and most of us supporting probably would as well; there is no double-standard here. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk)01:32, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support (when official). This is major news in Canada and the U.S., and parts of Eastern and Northern Europe. Tell me how that's not international enough. Hot Stop(Talk)01:57, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Weakest support ever. It's tedious and parochial, but we really need to get back into the habit of posting news stories, or we will forget how to do it. Formerip (talk) 02:01, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support No, the NHL is the league, all the other leagues (like Europe) are made of players not good enough to play in it. So this is not just a single league. In case anyone just thinks this is Americentrism, hockey isn't really that big in America, not minority but not as big the other 3 major North Americn sports, though with historical (somewhat recent) expansion there are NHL teams everywhere. It's almost like we have 3 and 1/2 major sports. It's big in areas with high amounts of cold and lack of dryness, like Colorado, Massachusetts, Minnesota, North Dakota, Cornell (on the New Hampshire/Vermont border), maybe Wisconsin and Chicago?, I know they do ice fishing there (Wusconsin, not Chicago). Of course it's not going to be well known in England, where it doesn't get cold enough to ice skate on frozen ponds. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 02:50, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Cornell is in Ithaca, New York. Dartmouth is on the NH/VT border. If only we had easy access to some source of information which would allow us to avoid such embarrassing mistakes. Where could we find such a thing? --Jayron3204:11, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I was intending the redneck Ivy in middle of nowhere which plays the big hockey game while somehow thinking the location of only Ivy which is more redneck, cold, in the middle of nowhere, conservative, outdoorsy and sports and skiing loving and doesn't have my major. Forgive me for Freudianly putting the location of my least favorite Ivy because the whole thread was starting to make me think of Sarah Palin and Alaska. Also, the Internet wouldn't have helped because, 1. When your personality puts a high enough value on avoiding unenjoyable effort (otherwise known as laziness) and you have decentish brainpower, you use subconscious shortcuts alot, which by definition happens without realizing it 2. If I wasn't using a laziness-helping subconscious shortcut, I wouldn't need to look up anything.
This is not a non-controversial post. I think this should be examined more closely to ensure that we are not wrecking precedence by posting this..--WaltCip (talk) 13:44, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There's not much worry about precedence given three of North America's big four leagues are now at the start of ten-year deals. 2016 is the next expiry (MLB), after that we're looking at 2019-2023. Resolute14:50, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Post-posting support. Major development in the major professional league of a major international sport. (FWIW, Olympic sport with strong popularity and high salaries in top league equates to "major" in my book). IgnorantArmies – 14:55, Monday January 7, 2013 (UTC)
Post-posting support. As stated above, we posted the end to the similar NBA lockout. The NHL is a significant enough league for many reasons (as evidenced by the fact that its championship is an ITNR event here). I'm sure it seems to many users outside of N American that this seems to happen all the time here but as mentioned above the NHL now has a deal in place that will last many years so it's not as if we'll have this for the NHL every year.--Johnsemlak (talk) 22:45, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Amused. Anyone who has ever been to Canada in the winter knows that hockey runs the country, from four-year-olds just starting out in peewee hockey all the way up to the NHL. Hockey is to Canada as football/soccer is to most other parts of the world -- but even more so. Equally ironically, hockey and the NHL does not mean much to the majority of United States residents outside the original U.S. franchises (New York, Boston, Detroit, Chicago), plus a couple of other northeast franchises (Philadelphia).
If anyone is still reading this (or cares), I thought I would toss in some objective examples of just how Canadians view hockey. Start with the Canadian five dollar bill, with its illustration of pond hockey and its quote from "The Hockey Sweater". Go next to The Greatest Canadian -- notice the two NHL-related finalists? (Don Cherry's nomination was the result of a protest vote to keep Don Cherry as a hockey commentator.) Canadian television ratings for Stanley Cup finals (NHL) -- without a Canadian team, they are around 2/2-1/2 million; with a Canadian team they are always over 5 million. Canada has a total population of 35 million.
Even water usage has been traced to hockey games; with a sudden increase in water usage timed to commercial breaks.
Finally, during a critical hockey game (Stanley Cup final, World Championship gold, Olympic gold), many Canadian city streets, even major streets, go completely quiet. The traffic is less than a quarter of the usual, and many of those cars are running the radio game broadcast. The moment the game is won, horns start beeping everywhere. - Tenebris 17:13, 11 January 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.254.156.17 (talk)
Support Abso-bloody-lutely, as soon as it's official. It is a major international sport, and the NHL is THE league for it. --Calton | Talk00:48, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The male friend of the Delhi gang-rape victim – the only witness in the case – on Friday spoke for the first time in front of the nation and exclusively told Zee News that his friend was "positive" and wanted to live even after the horrific incident that took place on the night of December 16. (Zee News)
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Oppose. I don't see how this is significant in global terms. There are apparently no casualties either. Also, the article is very short. Vanasan (talk) 15:18, 5 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
From above: "Do not complain about an event only relating to a single country". Global significance isn't a criterion any more. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk)15:26, 5 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
From above: " I don't see how this is significant in global terms." No complaint whatsoever over event relating to a single country, only to it being insignificant in global terms. Worse things happen in Africa and elsewhere on a daily basis without being featured on ITN. A major catastrophe with 100 casualties would be significant in global terms, some property damage is not. Vanasan (talk) 15:38, 5 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
My view on that is that a story needs to be significant in an international context (i.e. of a significance that would make the news across the world), whether it's confined to a single nation's borders or not. LukeSurltc12:37, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If it is such a big story, why does the article only comprise 5 sentences? The article doesn't demonstrate how this is ITN material. Vanasan (talk) 15:58, 5 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose at this time. I don't think this event has reached the scale necessary to be posted in ITN; the US has had many fires like this one (and worse) in the last few years. I don't believe they have all been posted(but I could be mistaken). If the scale of this fire increases, it may be worthy of being posted. Article needs more detail as well. 331dot (talk) 21:24, 5 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Wait and see : ABC news this morning is reporting that Tas Police have "grave concerns" for 100 missing persons, if it turns out that there has been loss of live then post. ✍Mtking✉19:56, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As of 8 January all the missing persons have been accounted for. I think it's safe to say that this is a minor though nonetheless tragic bushfire. YuMaNuMaContrib14:06, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's comments: We seem to be struggling for consensus on anything. This is a very, very important story for Pakistan, and we have not previously posted anything about it. Formerip (talk) 01:43, 5 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Just for clarification, it was posted on October 15 after [[Wikipedia:In the news/Candidates/October 2012#[Posted] Malala Yousafzai|this discussion]]. RyanVesey01:50, 5 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I was solely clarifying your statement "we have not previously posted anything about it", whic I understood as "we have not previously posted anything about Malala Yousafzai". RyanVesey02:14, 5 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
OK. I'd now like to clarify my previous statement with the clarification that your clarification was perfectly clear. If anything is unclear in this clarification, I shall re-clarify on an ongoing basis, as the need for clarification becomes clearer. Formerip (talk) 02:21, 5 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. It's not natural to cover everything that happens in this story, and it doesn't seem like a major event, she is merely continuing treatment while living outside the hospital with her family, so little new has happened. While the story that was previously posted on October 15 was an important story for Pakistan, each new development in the case isn't. Vanasan (talk) 01:54, 5 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose We've already posted this story (as above) and I don't think we should update things by putting it on the front page. As Vanasan says, every update isn't necessarily important enough doktorbwordsdeeds07:22, 5 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support A significant development in a major worldwide news story, and something Wikipedia readers will plausibly be looking for more information on. -- Khazar2 (talk) 13:57, 5 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
9 people are killed by a car bomb at a petrol station in the Syrian capital of Damascus. The bomb reportedly hit the Barzeh al-Balad district, as large numbers of people were queuing for fuel. (BBC)
Police clash with demonstrators in Belfast over when the Union Flag is to be flown over their city hall. (BBC)
Business and economy
Joblessness in the United States remains constant, with latest official figures showing a modest job creation total of 155,000. (Al Jazeera)
Swiss bank Wegelin & Co., the nation's oldest, will cease to operate after pleading guilty to a US tax evasion case and being fined $57.8 million. (BBC)
Six Russian tourists are killed and two tourists are seriously injured after a snowmobile towing a sled veers off a ski slope, crashes into a barrier, and flies into a ditch on Italy's Mount Cermis. (BBC)
U.S. media report that celebrity Naomi Campbell has been assaulted in Paris. Reports say two men on a motorcycle tried to make off with her handbag during the attack. (BBC)
The Church of England drops its prohibition on gay clergy in civil partnerships becoming bishops, so long as they promise to be celibate. (BBC)(The Guardian)
Oppose sticky. The article is not being consistently updated with new bits of information that could potentially be ITN items on their own. Continuing demonstrations occur elsewhere, and I'd say wait until something important happens and possibly post a new ITN item if there is a major incident. SpencerT♦C19:39, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose sticky As per the reasons from my honourable friends above. I have great sympathy with those involved and am genuinely concerned by the incidents but feel it's not necessary to put a sticky on the front page doktorbwordsdeeds23:55, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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What makes this "tedious and trivial flim-flam"? Virtually every time a recent death nomination is made, people complain that the death was too boring. Now we have a death that is very much not boring, and you call it tedious and trivial flim-flam. RyanVesey08:16, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
According to every post we've ever had by doktorb, existence itself is tedious and flimflam, and not a single one of his comments says anything otherwise. μηδείς (talk) 22:39, 5 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support. I'm concerned about the notability of mountaineering, but when I swap it out with other lines of work which have notable participants I can't see how this one can be excluded. 331dot (talk) 10:47, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Support "seven summits challenge" is certainly not "flim flam", and we post articles all the time that were created after the event. Lastly, he wasn't some million year old footballer/cricket batter/sitar player/actor/news writer, all of which we've posted recently and in some cases of dubious notability; he was hit by lighting on the top of a mountain. Since his "thing" was mountain climbing, it seems to be much more notable than it would be if he died at 74, having climbed nothing but the stairs in 30 years. --IP98 (talk) 15:08, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support Wikipedia is not a source, the fact the article is new is like the claim of tedious flim flam--it reflects on us not the subject. μηδείς (talk) 17:07, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I agree that the fact that this individual didn't have an article until he died means that he wasn't newsworthy enough to be posted on the front page. The article is also essentially an orphan, further indicating his lack of importance. I do suggest DYK as being struck by lightning on Kilimanjaro, while a terrible personal tragedy, also makes for a great DYK hook. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:47, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Is the gentleman a record mountain climber or not? I am no fan of the sport, but if he is a record mountainclimber the nom should be posted as doubly notable. μηδείς (talk) 22:36, 5 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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[Posted] Oldest Swiss bank Wegelin to close after US tax evasion fine
Nominator's comments: Switzerland's oldest bank is to close permanently after pleading guilty in a New York court to helping Americans evade their taxes. 2.97.27.172 (talk) 02:17, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support We supported the HSBC/Libor nomination (and one other, I think), and this seems to be on the same level "narrative wise", if I can put it like that. Luke is right - the article needs attention. But it seems highly suitable for the front page doktorbwordsdeeds10:18, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Reply perhaps this is "shameless ... centrism is once again rearing its ugly head on WP:ITN". ... can be Euro or finance, whatever you like. no? --IP98 (talk) 22:16, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose the notability here, if any, is that it was fined to death by a foreign power. I'm sure many of it's assets and board will find a new home in a new corporate person, these things are like hydras. This has nothing to do with UBS/libor, it's a straight up case of good ol' tax evasion. It certainly doesn't mean the end of Swiss banking, there are many others for the wealthy to hide in. --IP98 (talk) 15:12, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Quote from article lead: "At the beginning of 2012..." and then it talks about them announcing their closure. I'm not sure how others feel about this, but putting something on the ITN template that was announced a year ago? gwickwiretalkedits19:41, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support - If this is not a year-old story, per the above, it is ITN-worthy and of great interest to international readers. Sorry I don't have the time to dig deeper at the moment. Jusdafax21:43, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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Nominator's comments: Mainly, I couldn't resist the above section-title. But I also think its an interesting and unusual enough story concerning a significant enough national debate around a significant enough celebrity. Unfortunately, the article is locked for updating at the moment. Formerip (talk) 22:37, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support This is a unique, historical event, and will have high readership interest. Someone who isn't having computer trouble should compose an update and request that an admin post it to the article. μηδείς (talk) 22:55, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Support. They have now accepted his reques and this appears to have delighted many, many Russians. It is also not every day one hears Russia called "a great democracy". This is without doubt a unique event in world history and "serious in its implications for France's international image" as the source says. --86.40.197.254 (talk) 23:03, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, he's not the only one leaving after that massive tax hike. More to the point, it's just fallout from the event that would have been a better choice for a blurb. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk)23:04, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as per AlexTiefling. Personally I can't afford this the superlatives that others are using here. That said, the section-title here is exquisite. LukeSurltc23:06, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Oppose Despite the Smirnoff-ism, it's not that important that Depardieu is now a Russian citizen due to French taxes. The French taxes are the most important part of this, and they're not so newsworthy. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:08, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support, primarily because of the personalites involved and the "light" it sheds on current French politics. .. but probably secretly thinking of all those BLP battles editors have over something as straightforward as "nationality" Martinevans123 (talk) 23:09, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose This is a much bigger story than one celeb having a strop. ITN avoids this kind of celebrity driven story at the best of times, it's worth swerving around now more than ever doktorbwordsdeeds23:23, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
General comment. Within reasonable limits, I'm all for maintaining a certain level of seriousness on ITN, really I am. But people are opposing a blurb about how the Frenchest Frenchman most people have heard of is suddenly Russian on the grounds that we should have instead posted a story about changes to the French tax code??? Surely some of you must be sensitive to the risk of self-parody? Formerip (talk) 23:41, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The opposes based on tax ideology are cute, but they don't negate the fact that this is the most famous man in France renouncing his citizenship to adopt a Russian one with the approval of the most powerful Russian autocrat since Stalin. Can we have comments based on that unusual circumstance, as opposed to ones simply in favor of a confiscatory tax rate? Or is that too much to expect? μηδείς (talk) 02:41, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
All right: I oppose this because a sycophant declaring an autocrat to be democratic on the basis that they're friends and he's been done a favour is not news. It's scarcely gossip. If some random Hollywood leftie did a bunk for Venezuela or Cuba, saying flattering things about their leadership, you can bet your last peso I'd oppose that as an ITN story too. AlexTiefling (talk) 10:40, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Article updated Recent deaths of any person, animal or organism with a Wikipedia article are always presumed to be important enough to post (see this RFC and further discussion). Comments should focus on whether the quality of the article meets WP:ITNRD.
Oppose I don't think just any Taliban leader deserves to be posted here. Besides, there is nothing in that article about the guy's life since 2009, with the exception of the death of his brother in 2011. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:00, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Nothing about the man, his life, his death, his assassination, the reason for his assassination, or his policies towards people other than his own clan is of any worth. doktorbwordsdeeds19:34, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This strikes me as a case where RD is somewhat inadequate. Because this was a targeted assassination it is the incident of his death that is the story, rather than this simply being an obituary-type story. LukeSurltc19:43, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Futile support major leader of a top organisation that is effectively threatening the inegrity of a UN state wih a large population (some 200-odd million). Would a "targeted" assassination of Obama or any state leader be dismissed on that reason? Far more worthy than many RD postingsLihaas (talk) 00:30, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The appropriate word would be "misguided", not "futile", since were this to be posted it should go under ITN for the assassination, not RD for the death. Your comparison with the elected president of a major democracy is interesting. μηδείς (talk) 01:54, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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Support for Recent deaths list because of substantial life achievements. However, the death in itself does not seem to be that extraordinary or of enough impact for the upper ITN list. Mikael Häggström (talk) 14:09, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Leaning oppose for both blurb and ticker. Just from reading through the article, I don't see anything that stands out. No awards or prizes and nothing to suggest he had a particularly strong reputation. I also don't see anything additional in a Google translate of the Romanian version. He's not even mentioned in the fairly in-depth Cinema of Romania article. Formerip (talk) 14:23, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Language and cultural barriers mean it's difficult for the unitiated to assess what standing this man had in his field. As per FormerIP I am probably leaning oppose the ticker (with total opposion to a full blurb), but am open to persuasion by new information from the better-informed. LukeSurltc14:34, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose No international significance in cinematography. Is known in Romania as one of the few directors intensively active during the communist dictatorship, a privilege often linked to his ties with the regime as hinted to in the ro.wiki article. Should be mentioned though in Cinema of Romania. --ELEKHHT14:53, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure how "witty" comments are supposed to be constructive here, but I admire your "wittiness" for making NZ the 51st state. The RD is heavily biased towards people from English-speaking countries, and if this guy was from UK he would automatically get RD. Please read the article (which I admit is only a start-class) to get yourself educated. Nergaal (talk) 15:36, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As expected you picked on the micro-detail so I rectify: for you "around the world"=87.5%USA (i.e. 7 of 8 links provided). If you imagine the en.wiki article about him provides you proper education, you're deluding yourself. The poor quality of the article is the second reason I oppose the posting. --ELEKHHT15:46, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Are you implying that WP:ITN on en.wiki should not rely on the quality of articles on en.wiki to determine their postworthiness? If so, what is the point of discussing the quality of any articles regarding persons outside the English-speaking world? Let's limit postings strictly to those of persons in English-speaking countries.--WaltCip (talk) 18:15, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Romania isn't in the United States yet. So 100% of the above quoted sources were international sources. --12.41.124.5 (talk) 22:39, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I am fairly certain the criterion is top of his field or significant innovator, not top of his field for his country. Were it the latter, there are well over 200 countries....μηδείς (talk) 23:00, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
WTF this has to be posted support as the (one of the) greatest film director in Romanian (population: 19 million) history. If that's obscure to you, well that means that dude who played hurling (or Gaelic football, I forgot already; population: 6 million) has to be mainstream. –HTD16:35, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Reply Gaelic football is on ITN/R. If you feel that's inappropriate, please discuss at WT:ITNR. If you feel that dead Romanian film directors should be added to ITN/R, and get an automatic pass on notability, please feel free to discuss it there. --IP98 (talk) 17:22, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Oppose No evidence he passes ITN/DC #2. Other than being prolific, no evidence of important achievements in his field in the article. --IP98 (talk) 17:22, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Not true RD was not created to lower the bar to entry, it was created to deal with the perceived flood of death noms which were passing ITN/DC. There has been absolutely no consensus to lower the requirements now that there is a "death ticker". --IP98 (talk) 01:28, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I note that this is being [[Wikipedia talk:In the News#Deaths: when to blurb, when to use ticker?|discussed right now] and the discussion has not been closed, so there is no official rule on this debate anyway. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 23:47, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Blurbs are used when the figure is of very high status and merits more recognition than just [person] dies at the age of [age]. The ticker is there to replace those dully worded blurbs, nothing more. EricLeb01 (Page | Talk)00:48, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Rebels halt their advance towards the capital Bangui and agree to peace talks. (Reuters)
President François Bozizé fires both his army chief of staff and his son, Jean Francis Bozizé, as defense minister, taking the ministerial position for himself. (Deutsche Welle)
An unnamed gunman, 33, kills 3 women and injures 2 men in the village of Daillon, Switzerland, opening fire from his apartment, and pursuing the attack in the street; he threatened police when they arrived and was shot and hospitalized (it is speculated this will renew debate about males retaining their arms after their mandated military service). (Chicago Tribune)[permanent dead link]
Article:No article specified Blurb: Three are killed, two injured in a shooting in Daillon. (Post) Alternative blurb: At around 8PM GMT time, three are killed and two injured in shooting in Daillon. The suspect was shot and wounded by police. News source(s):[92], [93], [94] Credits:
Oppose: While tragic for those involved, the magnitude of the incident is not at the level that is typically posted at ITN. Incident would probably also need an article of its own. LukeSurltc13:13, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose and suggest a SNOW close; we don't even have an article to link to in the event this was posted; but three deaths, while tragic, is not of sufficient scale to list in ITN. 331dot (talk) 23:45, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Gunmen kill five female teachers and two other people in an ambush on a van carrying workers home from their jobs at a community center in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province, Pakistan. (AP)(BBC)
Comment The blurb is obscure to the point of uselessness for the average reader. Can't we say something like "In an all-time comparison of chess players, Magnus Carlsen achie
Support. Would also support an alternative blurb, but I think most people who understand such things would say that you can really reliably compare chess players across time, just as you can't compare footballers or boxers - it's just a noteworthy numerical achievement. Maybe Chessplayer Magnus Carlsen achieves the highest-ever official ranking score in the game. Formerip (talk) 18:18, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I definitely don't "understand such things" but what seems to be implied is that this does allow a ranking between players who've never played each other, correct? If so we should make that clear in some way, even if we don't ourselves think it's very accurate. Some sort of brief clarification offset by commas is called for. Otherwise it would be as unclear to the uninitiated as saying "In baseball, Joe Schmo sets a record in RBI's." I'll be happy if someone suggests better verbiage than I have. μηδείς (talk) 18:52, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It does allow comparison of players who have never played each other, but not across time, because then you are comparing players who have had no opponents in common, so the comparison is fairly weak. Even as a rough guide, it doesn't work at all, because it is pretty clear that scoring has tended to become more generous over time. (I don't want to give the impression of being an expert on this - I had a rough idea and I just Googled a little). Formerip (talk) 19:08, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It's not a ranking it's a rating (2861) every 200 points down is 3 to 1 point ratio all the way down to I dunno 0? (the worst chess players on Earth), I know for sure 100 is possible. How about Magnus Carlsen becomes the highest rated chess player of all time. ? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 20:48, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No, it is about ranking. It's the system the World Chess Federation use to calculate their rankings. But, as I tried to explain above, it's really a misuse of the system to try to compare Carlsen to past players on the basis of his score, and so to use words such as "...of all time" would be misleading. Formerip (talk) 21:00, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. I do remember reading though that opening theory advances so fast (computers have helped) that the best players of the past would be greatly disadvantaged or have trouble with the best of today. But if Capablance had grown up in Magnus' time instead of teleported he might have him beat. And then there's rating inflation. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 21:45, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose A minority interest achievement in a minority interest sport, with almost no discussion in enough places to justify front page prominence. We're better than this. doktorbwordsdeeds21:38, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
We're better than this. Rating or ranking, it's an arbitrary score awarded by a barely known group in a barely recognised 'sport'. We're not here to deposit everything on the front page (cf. death ticker) doktorbwordsdeeds22:02, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
And are you suggesting a tournament between greats like Bobby Fischer (dead 1/17/2008), Garry Kasparov, Magnus Carlsen (not world #12 yet Jan 2008) etc. to determine who's the best? The numbers are not arbitrary, they're determined very mathematically with a series of equations by the FIFA-like body of chess. And like it or not chess is one of stereotypical thingys of human intelligence. We're an encyclopedia aren't we? We don't have to follow the evening news on everything (and in the event it was mentioned (I don't know) well there you go). And what if we follow this article's lead and just call him the highest rated FIDE world number 1 ever? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 22:44, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Well I guess you could be of the opinion that a new world's best known chess player ever is not ITN worthy. He's barely 22 years old you know, still can improve more. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 23:25, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Points are used because they have to give you something for not losing (cause it's harder) or punish you for not winning (cause winning is better) so both sides get a half a win. Otherwise, it's just a win counter. The ratings adjust for things like strength of opponent. And yes, you do get monetary prizes based on performance in chess. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 01:58, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Please name any game older than chess still being played in tournament. I am no expert nor fan, but I still laugh at thy comment.μηδείς (talk) 22:10, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support. The news coverage I pointed to earlier is here. There may well be new coverage now that it is official. The blurb I would use would be something like: "In chess, the world number one Magnus Carlsen achieves the highest rating of all time, breaking Garry Kasparov's 13-year record." I did also promise a picture back then. I may try and upload that now, but some of the ones in the article might be better. I agree the update is a bit weak as well, and might try and do something there as well. The distinction between the general Elo rating system and the FIDE rating (piped link to a subsection of the Elo rating system article) is an important one. And this is a rating record, not a ranking record. Carcharoth (talk) 23:22, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support, I'm not knowledgable in chess, but the achievement seems to be notable. I'm open for having something new on ITN... we don't get stuff like chess here often. ComputerJA (talk) 01:05, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ready Given the prior and current consensus, and that this is well updated from when it was marked wait in the prior discussion, I am marking this ready. It really should go up ASAP. μηδείς (talk) 01:18, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Look at the prior discussion linked to above by IP98. The consensus then was to wait until Jan 1--not to wait and then require an entire new update. This is ready to go. μηδείς (talk) 03:28, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I am very much aware of that discussion, and I saw it as it took place. I also see, based on your link, that the article has seen significant changes in the past month. However, the vast majority of those changes have nothing to do with the event up for nomination. That's why I couldn't, and can't, see more than maybe two sentences about it in the body (under "Rating achievements"). I'm removing the [Ready] designation. -- tariqabjotu04:03, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
For example, this achievement is not mentioned at all under the 2012 section. It's not clear at all there that the London Classic victory led to this record. -- tariqabjotu04:08, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Tariqabjotu is right to point this out. It should be trivial to source, as the only games played in the most recent rating period (since FIDE moved to monthly lists) were the eight from the London Chess Classic. Indeed, the sources that mention this specifically are already in the article. I'll see what I can do in the next hour or so. I should also point out that my "13-year record" in my suggested blurb needs sourcing and needs to be in the article (so please don't anyone use that yet). It is 13 years (and 6 months) since Kasparov last appeared at 2851 (July 1999), but the point at which Kasparov first achieved the highest ever rating is a different point (and he surpassed Bobby Fischer's record, which was set when the Elo rating system first started in the early 1970s). Anyway, I'll go add some sourced updates to the article. Carcharoth (talk) 05:57, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I've added this. There is more out there in the reports from mid-December, such as this one from Leonard Barden in The Guardian chess column on 14 December 2012 where he stated "Carlsen's rating is now 2861, more than 50 points clear of his nearest rivals and consigning Garry Kasparov's 2851 mark to the history books." For something slightly different, you have this report from NBC Sports, which is part of a group of reports that got caught up in the 'media frenzy' (as stated here, and for chess this is the equivalent of a media frenzy). There are also (now the holiday yesterday for most organisations is over) some more current reports emerging. It should be clearer today and tomorrow what news organisations end up covering this and to what degree, but I saw several reports from around the world (Russia, Spain, Romania) with more likely to follow. If more reports do come out, I'm happy to add updates as needed. Carcharoth (talk) 07:06, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Anybody else who supports this nomination had better argue in favor of it themselves, because if 10,000-15,000 bytes worth of updates to a 75,000 byte article with no flags and two threads entirely in favor of its posting don't matter, I don't see what matters, anywhere, and certainly my continuing to point it out doesn't. μηδείς (talk) 04:45, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support and marking ready. This is the only "WR" in chess, and we post records in notable sports/games/events. Anybody saying that chess is a minority game then they are watching too much baseball. Nergaal (talk) 05:33, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Support in principle, but obviously the article has a long way to go. Also, I'm not sure "Houphouët-Boigny stampede" is a phrase commonly being used to describe the event. Formerip (talk) 14:19, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Weak support pending significant expansion of the article. Significant number of deaths, and news outlets are covering it. The blurb should maybe be amended to include the country that the stadium is located in. --HazhkTalk to me14:23, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think you read what I wrote or the nomination. The article, and this section, is titled 2012 Houphouët-Boigny stampede and, until twenty minutes before your comment and twenty minutes after mine, the article also said the event happened on December 31, 2012. -- tariqabjotu15:49, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Considering I asked "Didn't this event occur in 2013...?", I'm obviously not contesting it being listed under January 1, but rather I am contesting that it occurred on December 31, as the article suggested, and in 2012, as the article's name suggested. So... you didn't answer my question. -- tariqabjotu16:36, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Your question was not evidently contesting anything. Please don't expect others to second guess any hidden agenda you have. The only source in the nom didn't specify time, so I sought to help you by finding another source that did, and additionally checked the time zone of the country for you. Next time, I won't bother. Kevin McE (talk) 16:47, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support re: notability (as per any disaster with this number of deaths). As above, the article needs significant work before posting. --LukeSurltc17:13, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Updated This is now almost 5000 bytes with clean-up into separate sections and paragraph form so far as we have content for such paragraphs. I think it is ready. μηδείς (talk) 18:41, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Can you fix the template, Spencer? I figured I immunized you from claims of conflict of interest by intentionally not listing you as an updater, BTW. μηδείς (talk) 18:55, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Shucks, that's nothing. I just type fast. Funny thing is Spencer and I had many overlaopping edits without a single edit conflict--was really remarkable.μηδείς (talk) 19:28, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
knowing thishad no chance of posting, ive still added a link to the page where its mentioned with the min. update requirementLihaas (talk) 13:31, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: While unfortunate, this is an all-too-common occurrence in that part of the world, and something like this would need a standalone article (which I don't think would pass AFD). SpencerT♦C14:14, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose No article, so that's a cross against it from the start, but as Spencer says, not notable enough an incident in a part of the world where this kind of thing is (sadly) common. There is an ongoing narrative against charity workers and nurses in Pakistan which might be worth exploring in time. Lihaas seems to have nominated this just to attract readers to his work, which is a regrettable decision. doktorbwordsdeeds14:59, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Nominator's comments: ITN/R: article updated months ago but for some strange reason we post this at the time of elevation rather than election. Kevin McE (talk) 18:16, 31 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. There's something not quite right about the article. It lists three unsuccessful candidates, but in the table lower down it looks like there are others. Formerip (talk) 19:22, 31 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Done There's now a five-sentence update on the last stage of his life. --hydrox (talk) 12:07, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
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