Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Battle of Bitlis

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. How on earth this is still open is far beyond me. There doesn't seem to be any consensus; if retitling is needed, it can be boldy done, if it's still felt deletion is required then a new nom should be made instead of having this languish on a two-month-old AfD page. The Bushranger _{One ping only} 06:47, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Battle of Bitlis

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

• I can find only other "Battle of Bitlis" in google books,

McMeekin refers to another "Battle of Bitlis" which took place in 1914, Fatih Ünal calls this "battle" "Bitlis Rebellion" or "Molla Selim (Mullah Selim) Rebellion"

Erickson refers to another "Battle of Bitlis" which was engaged by the 1st Expeditionary Force.

Both battle are not same as the "Battle of Bitlis" explained in this article.

• If this battle had continued about 6 months (March 2-August 24, 1916), it's very difficult for us to deal with this article as a battle.
• Sourced information can be transferred to articles such as Military career of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk#Caucasus Campaign, 1916–1917, Caucasus Campaign#Operations etc.

Takabeg (talk) 04:59, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions.

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Turkey-related deletion discussions.

Sources

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. — • Gene93k (talk) 12:47, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. Buckshot06 (talk) 22:51, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
• Keep War, campaign and battle are different concepts. The war was First World War, the campaign was Caucasus Campaign. But within this campaign there were many battles . Most of these battles have articles in Wikipedia. (like Battle of Sarikamish) So Battle of Bitlis also deserves an article of its own. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 09:55, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

It's very difficult for me to keep. Because there is no mention about "Bitlis Muharebesi " even in the series of official researches of the General Staff of the Republic of Turkey ("Bitlis Muharebesi"). But I can write about, for example "Birinci Tortum Muharebesi". If it were sources, I would have developed this article. I don't want to do "original research" :)) Takabeg (talk) 11:07, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Maybe this battle is known under some diffirent name in Turkish books? Grouping continuous campaigns of WWI into battles is not easy. --DonaldDuck (talk) 04:22, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

---

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:00, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

• Comment Not sure how this argument works. Came to this page to check location of Bitlis on a map. Just dropped a reference into the article. Bitlis was a point in the successful eastern campaign that made Kemal into the great hero positioned to lead Turkey. All of the Kemal, Turkey, and WWI articles related to the Ottomans need attention. you guys are nothing if not ambitious. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.39.35.50 (talk) 21:32, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment I have fixed and checked this reference. It is viable. --Kansas Bear (talk) 23:11, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
• Comment. Checked some Russian sources.

  NG Korsun. Pervaia mirovaia voina na Kavkazskom fronte. 1946. pp. 71-74. To describe Turkish 2nd Army offensive and Russian counteroffensive in July-August 1916 he uses term "Ognot operation".

  [1] EV Maslovskii. Mirovaia voina na Kavkazskom fronte, 1914- 1917 gg.. 1933. ch. 26. He describes battles near Bitlis in 1-2 paragraphs but do not use name "Battle of Bitlis".

  [2] William Edward David Allen, Paul Muratoff Caucasian Battlefields: A History of the Wars on the Turco-Caucasian Border. Chapter 37. "The Offensive of the Turkish Second Army, August-September 1916."

There certainly were battles near Bitlis in July-August 1916, but, apparently, "Battle of Bitlis" is not established term.--DonaldDuck (talk) 04:08, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

• RetitleSince its agreed that the events took place, & that there are sources for them, can we find a title that does not imply more than the sources demonstrate . I suggest Bilitis campaign, 1916. DGG ( talk ) 16:48, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

I think that we can deat with the Ottoman offensive under the title such as August offensive of the Ottoman Second Army (1916), Offensive of the Ottoman Seconde Army. August-September 1916. If we focus on only "Bitlis", article will become "Nazarbekov's abandonment of Bitlis" or "Nazarbekov's retreat from Bitlis". Takabeg (talk) 13:51, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Frankly I don't understand the rationale to rename. The battle is a fact and it is quite important . It was later on mentioned in one of Mustafa Kemal's parliamentary speeches . The title is also appropriate because the battle was fought mainly around Bitlis. I don't aggree with the suggestion offensive or abandonment. In all battles one side attacks and finally one side abandones. That's no reason to rename a battle. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 10:05, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.