Hi. There are some "new" editors that are edit warring on Camila Cabello discography:
A few days ago, on November 13 user Maxgoldman12334 moved songs Easy, Cry For Me and Living Proof from the Singles section to Promotional singles section without explaining their edits, with no discussion and without providing reliable sources. Since then, they were reverted. On November 18, user LOVI33 did the same edit with no discussion. On November 20 I reverted their edit because sources says otherwise but as soon as I did it, another user GetawayDress reverted my edits. I send warnings to the user but they keep reverting and user LOVI33 re appeared again [1]. Please just check the edit history of the article.
They don't stop reverting me and everyone since weeks ago. Looks like the users have an agenda: they try to change the status of songs like Easy and Cry For Me to promotional singles because they are the less successful singles of the album's singer Camila Cabello. Many users had tell to them that sources don't support their changes, but they keep reverting everyone [2].
This behavior is the same on articles like Easy (Camila Cabello song) and Cry for Me. I don't know what to do cause they are 2 disruptive editors right now (GetawayDress and LOVI33) editing and reverting on their own and I don't want to break the 3 revert rule, so I have stopped. Best regards. Miaow00:45, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
Just for the record, user GateawayDress made this edit on the talk page [3].
Both users (GetawayDress and LOVI33) had been making disruptive edits today without any type of consensus on the articles mentioned above, reverting in a synchronized way in some of them. Originally, in all these articles the songs Easy and Cry for Me have appeared as single per the sources there even on her discography, but since a few days ago these users have been changing it to promotional single without any support from the sources cited there. Today I just realized they are making such edits and reverting everyone that restore to a previous version of them. Miaow01:55, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
I am not involved in this in any way, so I'd like to suggest any admins looking into this issue outright block GetawayDress. This user has a history of problematic edits—they have outright vandalised articles in the past (on Megatron (song)[4], [5]) and they mix this with constructive edits, but they have clearly gone over 3RR (I count nine reverts on Romance (Camila Cabello album) earlier today—the latest five are here: [6], [7], [8], [9], [10]) and reverted constructive edits without explanation here, and it's gone on long enough. LOVI33 needs to stop as well and receive a stern warning from an admin. As for the issue at hand, all editors need to stop reverting each other and discuss. This has gone on long enough on both sides. I stopped caring about what was a single or promotional single in regards to this album a week ago and I don't think anybody on this noticeboard particularly cares about the content dispute at the centre of this. Ss11202:00, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
Blocked GetawayDress x 2 weeks for disruptive editing. This is not a first offense and their editing history suggests they did not learn from their last time out. -Ad Orientem (talk) 04:10, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
Fallyisback changing numerous articles from Native American to Indian or American Indian
This is just a sampling. The terminology used has been long standing and there seems to be no legitimate reason for all of these changes. I have warned them on their talk page as have other editors prior to today. Indigenous girl (talk) 02:05, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
You know, editing while tired, I just mass-reverted them and made sure they were aware of previous discussions about the naming issue. But now, paging up their talk I see that they never responded to previous, escalating warnings in October. Rather, they just backed off for a bit and have now resumed the exact same, disruptive editing spree. I think we have a classic WP:RADARWP:SPA. So I'm raising the level 2 warning I gave them to a level 3. I predict a block in the near future. The name implies a returned user. I'll look for similar blocked sock patterns tomorrow. - CorbieVreccan☊☼02:32, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
My edits have no intention on being disruptive. I’ d first like to explain the edit I made on “Native Americans in the United States.” I replaced the phrase “Native American and Alaska Native” with “ “Native American and Alaska Native” because according to the U.S census, ”Alaska Natives” and “American Indians” are both Native Americans. The said phrase “Native American and Alaska Native” was also in reference to the U.S census of 2010, which racial identity category states “ American Indian or Alaska Native.” Furthermore, my other edits also deal with the same issue. Native American refers to both American Indians and Alaska Natives. My edits changing “Native American” to “American Indian” and sometimes “Indian” (depending on context) are because the article is only referring or discussing American Indians and not “Alaska Natives” Now I understand that American Indian and “ Native American” is sometimes used interchangeably, but in the United States it is factually incorrect. I hope I was able to clear up a few things. I will also be more descriptive when explaining my edits, as I understand they can be a bit lacking. Anyway, Thank You for the feedback and am hoping that you understand my motive: which isn’t to harm/disrupt anyone or anything. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fallyisback (talk • contribs) 02:38, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
Comment - Fallyisback has, since mid October ... - Fally registered their account on October 27th, that is not mid-October. Besides bombarding this, apparently, newbie editor's talk page with templates – in the space of an hour: 01:34 (warning), 01:38 (warning), 01:45 (warning, struck out), 01:46 (warning), 02:07 (ANI notice), 02:34 (warning) – have either of you engaged or attempted to engage constructively with them? All but the last template came after FiB had stopped editing (hiatus between 01:25 and 02:15) and all of them came after they stopped editing articles. Mr rnddude (talk) 06:13, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
Hi Mr rnddude. My apologies for getting the specific time line inaccurate. I am happy to strike through my mistake and correct it if you would like. FiB had been warned previously for disruptive edits, not by myself. I understood that giving them warnings was appropriate. I did not warn them on every edit they made, nor have I gone back and reverted all of the changes that were made on longstanding consensus terminology. Conversation has occurred on their page and although they have not edited since they are firm on their changes being correct. I am not sure what to do going forward. Indigenous girl (talk) 19:24, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
The first warning was appropriate, it's the five that followed that weren't. That FiB believes their edits to be correct is evidenced enough by the fact that they made them in the first place, since most editors don't go making changes they believe are wrong (exception: vandals). The normal course, after bold edits are reverted, is to hold a discussion (one that doesn't involve threats of blocks, preferably). FiB, unless, by some miracle, you get consensus to change "Native American" to "American Indian" this editing needs to discontinue. Refer to WP:ONUS. Mr rnddude (talk) 07:52, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
User:Dboora - Persistent Reversion of Irrelevant Information
Dboora has persistently tried to put in information into the article The Apprentice (British series 15), pertaining to claim it is relevant to know this for anyone reviewing the information about the series' broadcast. Unfortunately, their claim on relevance is rubbish - the information pertains to a chart denoting the performance of entrants to a contest connected to the programme, and how they fared in each stage - a business related task in which for the majority of all stages, members work in one of two teams. The table therefore denotes who won on a task, who lost, who led the team to their eventual result in the task, who was brought back to face scrutiny on performance and contribution, and who is eliminated from the contest. The information being put forward relates to a minor role, which doesn't have relevance to this table. Unfortunately, the user has not heeded the edit summaries regarding the reversion of the original edit and subsequent reversions of their reversions, to the point they are now pushing this towards an Edit War. What makes this galling, is that they make rather cheeky closing remarks in their summaries which seem demeaning to those generally attempting to both warn them and suggest they discuss the matter in the article's talk page.
The editor in question was given warnings last year for their behavior, including the possibility they could be blocked. They have no regard to discuss the matter when advised to take it to the article's talk page, and as the editor trying to reason with them that their edits raise problems and need discussion on, I have become increasingly annoyed that they will not listen. I need an Admin now to deal with this matter, before the editor pushes me into doing something I will regret. Please help me, as I really cannot deal with another problematic editor, after another had to be blocked for going too far (although in the defence of that editor, they did have Aspergers and little understanding of what they were doing). GUtt01 (talk) 21:15, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
I see no discussion of this content dispute at the article talk page, and I see no mandatory notification of Dboora on the user's talkpage. I have corrected the latter for you. Gricehead (talk) 10:32, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User Davide King has recently been consistently pushing his POV and editing the lead of the Domenico Losurdo article, ignoring other opinions on the discussion page and refusing to engage in a debate on that page before editing. I suggest that he should be banned from editing the article on Losurdo. 213.149.62.144 (talk) 14:35, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
Pushing POV? According to the article history, Davide King hasn't been reverted by anyone, nor has the editor been notified of any questions or complaints. No issue at all. @213.149.62.144:, please do not randomly file an ANI report unless there's a behavioral issue. Now can someone close this discussion? Jerm (talk) 19:59, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
If ANI is the drama-board...then Jimbo's talk page is an entire city of drama. Those with delicate constitutions might do well to avoid it in general. I don't think a formal ban is needed, but perhaps a gentle note that staying away from the drama-boards is the best way to not get involved in drama. Captain EekEdits Ho Cap'n!⚓04:29, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Yunshui's actions seem appropriate under the circumstances. Other editors have taken over responsibility for the article reviews. Nobody died. Guy (help!) 01:03, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hello IP user, I understand where you are coming from, but as it clearly says at the top, if you are just plain confused, please ask at the WP:Teahouse, or in this case even Yunshui's talk page. UsedtobecoolTALK✨10:50, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
I'm not just plain confused. I want to hear other experienced users' opinions about Yunshui's behavior. I think this page is for discussion of urgent incidents and chronic, intractable behavioral problems. 114.162.224.59 (talk) 11:14, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
Please contact Yunshui at their talk page and ask them this question directly. Please note also that you are required to notify them about this ANIO thread, which you have not done.--Ymblanter (talk) 11:19, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
(after edit conflict) All Yunshui has done is to invalidate the acceptance of this article by a now blocked user, with the edit summary containing, "needs re-checking via AFC". It is unfortunate that you have been caught up in this through no fault of your own, but you simply need to resubmit the articles to AFC where they can be reviewed by someone else. If you are not a paid editor then you can put a note on the talk pages explaining the position. Phil Bridger (talk) 11:36, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
114.162.224.59, you do not come here and complain about a highly qualified and experienced admin's 'intractable behaviour'. Call it 'action' if you will, but there is more to this than Yunshui who is a CU and OS is permitted to disclose, even to me, a fellow admin. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 11:57, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
Comment. I submitted and accepted both articles, so they are back in mainspace. I did not find any problems with the prose nor any copyright violations. I left it unreviewed, so if anyone wants to give it another look they are free to do so. –MJL‐Talk‐☖15:10, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
IP editor, you've asked for experienced editors' assessment of Yunshui's actions. I hope you are hearing loud and clear that their actions were entirely appropriate in the circumstances. I'm sorry you got caught up in this, but we take undeclared paid editing very seriously, and even though it was the reviewer, rather than the author, who has been accused of this, a brief period of 'quarantine' for these articles while they were checked over was indeed called for. You should really have discussed the matter with Yunshui on their talk page before you came here - I'm am sure they would have been willing to explain everything to you.
I have taken the time to look over both of the articles, and I agree with MJL's assessment of them - they are neutrally written and about notable subjects, so I have now marked them both as 'reviewed'. GirthSummit (blether)15:58, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
Note: There's another article - Draft:Sadaharu Yagi, that Yunshui also moved back to draftspace because the blocked editor accepted it - if anyone would like to inspect that one. I have no idea why Yunshui marked articles that were accepted - but not written - by the blocked editor with the PAID template (unless of course they know something we don't). Black Kite (talk)18:49, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The more I look at this, the more it seems to me that friction concerning Snooganssnoogans is exposing a weakness in WP. A lot of comments above suggest that he's doing the right thing in the wrong way. Some note, accurately, that 1RR would prevent him protecting articles against attack by POV-pushers. Others note, accurately, that he has a tendency to edit-war. Ultimately 1RR would require the proliferation of discussions on Talk pages often with limited eyeballs.
I propose that, for at least the period until the end of the 2020 US election cycle, we set up an American Politics noticeboard, where editors who specialise in this topic area can raise issues in relation to articles that are subject to disruption, without leaving any editor feeling they are fighting a lone battle to protect the project, with the attendant risk of burnout. Alternatively we could set up a new WikProject for American Politics as an intersection of WikiProject Politics and WikiProject United States.
I feel that a centralised discussion area might help to prevent the current proliferation of fires around the project. This has worked reasonably well for fringe science, biographies and reliable sources. Guy (help!) 01:15, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Promoted up one level to separate from Snoogs thread, as some people are misperceiving this as an alternative to addressing Snoog's conduct, which it is not.Guy (help!) 09:43, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Oppose. This solution is absolutely ludicrous. To respond to widespread evidence of Wikipedia policy violations on the part of Snoogans with "let's make a noticeboard" is just completely dismissive of the integrity of Wikipedia. I would support your proposal if it included 1RR on Snoogans, but it seems that direct evidence of his battleground attitude isn't enough: we must need the edict of a deity to condemn his conduct for what it is. It doesn't matter if 1RR would impede Snoogans from repelling POV pushers: his actions have demonstrated a clear need for punishment. He ignited the dumpster fire. Get someone else to do an impartial patrolling of AP2, since it seems Snoogans can't seem to do that. You can't help Wikipedia if you violate its policies. Are we seriously going to resort to "he can violate the rules all he wants if he catches people violating those same rules"? --MrThunderbolt1000T (talk) 01:45, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Oppose- We already have talk pages for the purpose of discussing edits and Snoogans doesn't seem to like them anyway, "it would force me to dedicate countless hours to starting talk page discussions and keeping tabs of dozens of on-going disputes without any effective way of ensuring a stable status quo version of the article." [14] If there is legit vandalism, I have confidence that any one of other other editors can deal with it. Also, nothing would stop him from reporting vandalism to WP:AIV. I can assure you that Wikipedia will not collapse due to an insurmountable amount of uncontrolled vandalism just because Snoogans is under a 1RR restriction. Some have asserted that Snoogans is doing the right thing (even if he may be going about it the wrong way). He is not. He is engaging in POV-pushing edit-warring.--Rusf10 (talk) 02:06, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Support This is a good idea, I think, regardless of whether Snooganssnoogans individually has crossed any lines or not. It's a much bigger issue. After all, American politics isn't going to get less fraught over the next year. I've wanted to solicit third opinions and ask for expert input and been flummoxed by the lack of an obviously active, well-trafficked central location to do so. Yes, we already have talk pages, which go unwatched, and we already have a WikiProject or two that are at least in the vicinity of relevant, but they may not be geared up for the particular challenges that lie ahead. None of our Noticeboards are perfect, of course, but they're not bad examples to follow. (Parenthetically, I note that it's logically possible to support creating WP:AP2N and believe that Snooganssnoogans should be put under 1RR. This is a bigger-picture question.) XOR'easter (talk) 02:47, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Comment – I fear that such a noticeboard will end up looking like this thread, which in turn looks like a lot of AP2 talk pages. If you ask me, the structural solution is to ECP and 1RR all of AP2. – Levivich05:25, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Levivich, I rather hope the opposite will be true: interested editors will be able to collate discussion of controversial editing in a controversial area, much as we do with WP:FTN, and thus forestall the problem of individual editors burning out defending the project. Guy (help!) 10:21, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Levivich and JzG, I have myself contemplated proposing a blanket ECP across American-politics pages. I haven't yet been convinced that it's necessary — at least, not convinced enough that I was willing to start the drama-filled process of a proposal debate. XOR'easter (talk) 16:56, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Support. Levivich's concern is reasonable, but we need that discussion to take place somewhere, ultimately, and I feel that a centralized noticeboard has more of a chance to attract outside voices and get people to calm down than limited discussion on talk pages. While this particular discussion might be particularly rancorous despite the number of people involved, I feel that in general, adding more people to a discussion helps stabilize it and calm it down, because at a certain point you get enough experienced editors who, personal views or not, know the policy and understand how a particular dispute ought to go. Also, much like WP:RSN, a centralized board might have a better chance of building up a broad consensus about recurring issues that are otherwise overlooked due to the discussion being scattered over a bunch of talk pages. We're going to have to have those potentially-ugly discussions somewhere, and I feel a dedicated noticeboard is better than scattered talkpages. Although, one caveat - does a clear WP:BLPN / WP:RSN / WP:NPOVN issue go to one of those noticeboards, or to the hypothetical WP:AP2N? There is certainly also some advantage to putting issues in front of editors who are not knee-deep in AP2. (Though in practice political disputes can get arcane and offputting enough to the point where, in my experience, only people who are already involved in the topic area really weigh in when they come up on those boards anyway.) --Aquillion (talk) 08:31, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Aquillion, A reasonable question, and one we already deal with in cases where BLP and FRINGE overlap, for example. We can post notification of BLP issues at BLPN, linking to the thread, and move threads to the board with the widest group of editors knowledgeable in the subject area. A modest amount of curation is required but past experience indicates it is not that big a problem. Guy (help!) 09:45, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Support per Guy: it should have enough eyes to avoid becoming a walled garden, but with the expertise/specialisms that are often (ahem) lacked on this board. Those who !voted in opposition should be given the chance to speak again in light of Guy's clarification. ——SN5412919:11, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Support This really is a separate issue involving a lot more than one editor. The next year in American politics is going to be the most difficult year Wikipedia (and perhaps America) has experienced so far in terms of different parties trying to manipulate our articles - and we know from what's happened on social media these "parties' are unlikely to be purely American. Neither ANI nor AE are appropriate places to discuss the issues Guy and others have suggested could be handled at the proposed noticeboard. {u|Levivich} your structural suggestion just isn't practical. Even now new pages are being created daily and the number is going to continue to grow quickly, at least that's what I see happening. No one would be able to find all the pages, let alone spend the time to ECP them, add edit notices etc, and a bot wouldn't be able to do it either. One subsidiary function of the proposed board could be to let others know about new pages. A number of issues are common across multiple articles and handling them article by article won't work. I don't know how well such a proposed board would work, but I think it would be better having one than not, and if it proves disastrous, which I doubt, we can shut it down. [[User:Rusf10, -User:MrThunderbolt1000T, your opposes seem to have been based on a misunderstanding, do you still oppose? Doug Wellertalk19:35, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Support. Wikipedia exists in the real world, and, in the real world, more POV-pushing on the English Wikipedia is concerned with American politics that any other such broad topic. A noticeboard is a good way to deal with this issue rather than a reliance on lone editors on particular pages. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:46, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Support Sure..."we don't need another noticeboard"...but the alternative is what we have today. Centralizing these issues together could do some good and I'm willing to give it a shot. Buffs (talk) 20:44, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
I wouldn't say dead. It's been useful and has resulted in stability being brought to, e.g., terrorism lists, Trump impeachment articles, HK protest articles. It's not the busiest board, but it's been effective at getting editor eyes rapidly on an article. – Levivich21:30, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
As someone who was directly involved in the terrorism lists issue, the Current events noticeboard was definitely a valuable resource during that discussion. Simonm223 (talk) 17:03, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Comment This is an interesting idea. I don't think anybody disagrees the topic area has problems. I don't know whether this might be a helpful solution or if it would just turn into AN/I 2.0 - another venue dedicated to endless bickering. I think there might be some structural changes that could help with that, but I'm not sure what yet. What structural elements could be put in place to ensure that a new noticeboard would aid editors in working collaboratively vs. engaging in partisan warfare? As for putting the entire topic area under ECP, I would strongly oppose that. That's too high a barrier for new editors, and yes, we occasionally get good new editors, even in controversial topic areas. A couple high profile BLPs might be good candidates for ECP, but definitely not everything. I just semi-d a couple BLPs yesterday that had zero protection...Semi-protection or even pending changes is a high enough bar for the vast majority of political articles. ~Awilley (talk)20:59, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Support – Farming out these disputes to a dedicated noticeboard might help focus on recurring issues, attract better-informed participants, and relieve some of the stress on AN/I and AE venues. Or it might totally fail… In both cases it will be fun, so let's try it! — JFGtalk00:32, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Support If the board gets broad community support it would be a useful alternative to having those conflicts ending up at WP:BLPN or WP:RSN when they don't really belong there. Nblundtalk02:37, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Support this excellent idea. This would save lots of time and be central place for these specialized discussions and issues. If a talk page template is created for this, please include a link to WP:AP/N (or whatever). -- BullRangifer (talk) 03:35, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Well actually, I didn't forget about it completely. I actually check that page, but I forgot about it within the context of this proposal... I'm just going to see myself out. –MJL‐Talk‐☖05:37, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Support I don't like this, and I understand the "not another noticeboard" opposition. But it would centralise discussion, it would reduce those interested missing out threads on the more obscure pages, it would place discussions under the view of a cadre of editors knowledgeable about the topic and it would reduce some cruft onto ANI more generally. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:38, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
I support JzG's suggestion for a specialised AP2 noticeboard, especially because I'd like to see ANI relieved of the American politics bloat under which it now groans. Bishonen | talk20:38, 15 November 2019 (UTC).
Support Last election cycle, one super PAC used over a million USD on online-campaigning: LA Times: Be nice to Hillary Clinton online - or risk a confrontation with her super PAC. It's not like Wikipedia is immune to that kind of campaigning. For some reason, the powers that be allowed Cirt to evade his politics topic ban despite the socking becoming an open secret. We are going to need scrutiny on things like that. Right now there editors who edit American politics 14 hours a day. So if the scope is broader like this, it will be needed. Now this kind of critical discussion often needs to be held on off-site Wikipedia criticism sites because it's outside the scope of ANI and AE. --Pudeo (talk) 22:58, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Hmmm - This sure seems like something to be discussed at VP or otherwise somewhere other than as a [former] subthread of a specific ANI matter. Worth noting that the current events noticeboard has never really gotten off the ground -- as most of the AP2 issues seem to be related to [reasonably] current events, maybe people could just start using that first? — Rhododendritestalk \\ 01:40, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
Support as an editor with very little interest in American politics, I would welcome anything that reduces its pollution of the rest of the Project. Alexbrn (talk) 07:21, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
Support in principle, with details to be worked out by consensus. Please don't call it AP2 noticeboard though. Let's not perpetuate Arbcom's forking silliness. Just call it American Politics Noticeboard (WP:APN aka WP:TRIBAL).- MrX 🖋 12:31, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
MrX, fair point. Or possibly current politics, since Brexit causes all the same shit and was also the result of Russian covert operations. Guy (help!) 18:15, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
A general politics noticeboard might be the best way to do it, since all political topics have similar problems, just at a lower scale outside of US + Britain due to enwiki obviously leaning towards an English audience. Also, including a wider variety of politics might reduce the danger of it turning into a pure WP:BATTLEGROUND. --Aquillion (talk) 19:27, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
I partially disagree here. While this might work for the Americas and (most of) Europe, we’d be ill advised to extend this internationally, as Eastern Europe, Central Asia, the Middle East, South Asia and East Asia all have very different and complex reasons for their issues. We’d be better advised to make regional noticeboards if this proves to be a global issue. Thus far, the existing noticeboards seem to be able to handle the issues on the English Wikipedia, aside from maybe South Asia (India-Pakistan-Bangladesh). Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 04:16, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
Comment I agree with the need to relieve AN/ANI of the AP2 burden. I'm concerned that creating a specialized noticeboard for AP2 topics will make it a hotspot of disruption that will attract even fewer independent voices, and as a result will be even harder to moderate. It also offers far too easy a target for sustained disruption. JzG, are you visualizing this noticeboard as a location where sanctions may be levied? If so, you do realize you are proposing the creation of only the third venue where sanctions may be placed based on community consensus? Also, AP2 stuff is terrible, but it isn't qualitatively worse than our other political dispute areas (ARBPIA, ARBIPA, and a couple of others). A general politics noticeboard would be something I'd be a lot happier with; it also avoids giving the impression that we take American politics disruption more seriously than that in other areas. Vanamonde (Talk)21:19, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
Vanamonde93, I envisage a forum where articles may be discussed. I would not expect sanctions discussions to happen there, certainly in the first instance. I would expect sanctions requests to go to the usual venues should an editor be considered sufficiently unmutual. Guy (help!) 22:02, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
I see. Well, I'd support the creation of a noticeboard to discuss content related to politics in general. There is a need for more focused dispute resolution with respect to politics. I would oppose the creation of a new noticeboard where sanctions may be levied (Thanks for clarifying that that's not what you want, JzG, but I think this proposal has taken on a life of its own) and I would also oppose anything that's AP2 specific; we don't need another locus for the frequent-flyers of this topic to argue ad nauseum among themselves; what the AP2 disputes need is incisive input from voices less familiar with the whole mess, and who are thus less likely to get lost in the weeds. Vanamonde (Talk)15:55, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
Support This area has been fraught with long-term problems since the wider divide of ideology in American Politics emerged, primarily traced to the doubt cast on reliable sources in mainstream culture, which is a persistent problem (even among veteran editors). This is in addition to the huge time sink of LTAs, sock puppets, POV warriors, and SPAs who seem to frequent these pages nowadays. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 04:03, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
Weak support I'm very torn on this idea. We're at the start of what I think will be the most divisive election in recent US history. Pulling the madness out off the existing boards, ANI and DRN in particular, would be helpful IF AND ONLY IF there is a solid core of admins willing to actively monitor and help defuse situations. Being aggressive about using 0RR/1RR on articles and even short blocks (2-4 hours) to stop initial disruption and get editors to discuss. My real worry is that this may help some, and then we'll have Israel-Palestine, India-Pakistan and Eastern European boards popping up and that needed core of admins gets more and more dispersed. Ravensfire (talk) 04:16, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
I didn't take this to the 3RR admin page because this is part of a larger pattern of disruptive removal of information. This dispute goes beyond content and involved the pattern of behavior just blanking information that the editor does not like, ignoring various attempts to get feedback from others, clarifications, etc. The diffs below precede the recent 3RR:
I added this information from the source Myroslav Shkandrij. (2015) Ukrainian Nationalism: Politics, Ideology, and Literature, 1929-1956. New Haven: Yale University Press pg. 19 : [19].
E-960 removed parts of it (specifically, reference to Jews being victims in the camps, and the words concentration camps) without prior discussion: [20].
Volunteer Marek did not change the words "concentration camps" despite misgivings but did remove reference to Jews. Another editor, Paul Siebert, didn't have a problem with reference to concentration camps or Jews, but suggested different wording: [22]. No further input from Volunteer Marek.
So based on Paul Siebert's feedback, I changed the wording and added the info:[23].
E-960 changed the wording without consensus [24] and removed it again [25], adding a false edit summary that his version was the original statement (clearly, as we see, it was not. I had written the original statement).
I then added the text plus the full quote from the original source into the reference to make clear that it was supported by the text: [26].
I then found another reference and included it: [28].
E-960 removed it: [29] with false edit summary about no consent on the talk page for my edit (he was outnumbered 2:1, for what it is worth). As if there was consent for his version.
So one editor has seen no problem with the text I added, E-960 objected to it so he kept reverting. Even after I changed it to match the other's opinion, even after I changed it by adding an additional reference, etc. he kept reverting.
Seeking more opinions, I opened an RFC on this topic: [30]. The contributor concluded here: [31]: "First, the source was quoted not verbatim, so quotation marks are misleading. It uses "supported" in a context of not only military, but "university professors, priests, lawyers and doctors". With respect to interned Jews and other nationalities it says "sympathetic". Second, this source does support this statement, and Jews are mentioned explicitly, partially because their testimonies "described murders and abuse." However, I don't know if this source provides a mainstream viewpoint, or it represents just a minority view. Taking into account that the publisher is very reputable, and that the book was cited in 25 articles, it is likely that it is not a minority view, but further analysis is necessary to confirm that."
On the rfc, E-960 accused me of forum-shopping:[32] and flooded the rfc with off-topic complaints about me.
Then he, the same editor that kept removing information sourced to a book published by Yale University Press, added information (diff:[33]) from a Polish nationalist website: [34]! This strongly suggests that he is biased.
After another editor questioned the words used: [35] E-960 then blanked the entire section without waiting for further discussion: [36].
I added additional information. He reverted it: [37].
I restored the blanked paragraph. He then blanked the entire paragraph again: [38] with false edit summary that there was some sort of consensus not to have the paragraph included.
The issue isn't strictly about content, it is about disruptive behavior of removing anything and everything he doesn't like (i.e., something critical of the Polish government's behavior), refusing to take into account others' feedback, and then adding stuff from a Polish nationalist website. Wiki shouldn't be a nationalist's battleground.
I had brought this to the attention of an admin on his personal page (here:[39]) but he said he didn't have time to read it so I am coming here (I don't think this is black shopping, he simply didn't have time to look at it).Faustian (talk) 22:07, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
Faustain, pls consider that you were the editor who FIRST inserted the new and contentious material into the Polish–Ukrainian War article (other editors simply reacted to your changes), here [40] adding weasel words "Poles claimed" in front of longstanding statements which contained reliable reference sources, and later more changes here [41]. Your edits were reverted by users E-960, Volunteer Marek and GizzyCatBella, and discussions were initiated on the talk page, per Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle. However, you restored those disputed edits drawing a rebuke form users KIENGIR [42] and Volunteer Marek [43]. Then you disparaged some of the editors by calling them "Polish editors" here "two Polish editors should not own wikipedia articles..." Faustian 19:21, 17 November 2019 (UTC) and here "...hopefully Polish editors will not remove?" Faustian 19:08, 17 November 2019 (UTC). When the original talk page discussions were not going in your favor, you opened up two RFCs literally a day after the first discussions were started here [44] and [45]. Then here [46] an anonymous IP restored some of the disputed material you first added, prompting user Volunteer Marek to revert, and to raise concern that this may be a sockpuppet "We can discuss the changes but this is obviously disruptive editing by a SPA sock"[47]. Unfortunately, you only see fit to accuse other editors of misconduct when they restore original content, however as evident, your editing is rather disruptive. --E-960 (talk) 08:28, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
The reason I added "claim" was because the information with "claim" placed in front of it was from questionable Polish-language sources that contracted a clear English-language reliable source. Two of the Polish editors who reverted those edits have extensive block histories for edit warring (one of them seems to be banned from editing on World War II-era Poland-related articles). I opened an rfc to get other people to take a look at this article. Very telling that you feel that this is a bad thing.Faustian (talk) 12:25, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
I would point out that this [[48]] has caused me some concern as it involves claiming sources say something they do not really say as well as some pretty dodgy use of snippets. As well as link s that seem to be to host front pages, rather than articles.Slatersteven (talk) 14:39, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
I agree with Slater. Polish–Ukrainian War has that familiar mix of: edit warring by established accounts + communication through edit summaries + arguments on the talk page about whether the RfC statements are neutrally-worded + accusations of violation of various WP:ALLCAPSBLUELINKS + a lot of mention of the ethnicities of sources and editors. – Levivich17:24, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
My "edit warring" was the direct result of the tendentiousness. "Revert" means to return to a previous state. My "reverts" mostly did not do that - I added more references or augmented the statements that were being deleted by the tendentious editor, in the vain hope that the result would be solid enough not to get erased again [50][51]. That having been said, thanks to the intervention of other people including Slatersteven, the situation on this article caused by the tendentious editor seems to be stabilizing.Faustian (talk) 12:37, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
At this point I no longer know if he is editing honestly, trolling, determined to have his way or no way, or what. This doesn't appear to be defensible behaviour. Guy (help!) 16:13, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
If he wants to take his ball and go home, I'd say let him. There's no need to antagonize him any more. I don't think he's done much wrong to require any sanctions; he was involved in a heated, but IMHO good faith dispute, his position was not upheld by consensus, and if that consensus means he doesn't want to contribute to Wikipedia anymore, let him go. As far as I am concerned, he's free to go or stay as he chooses. If you're concerned about his contributions, let him take them away, and instead of reverting him, add the information back in your own words with your own sources. Problem solved. --Jayron3216:17, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
I read that more as part of his tantrum rather than an admission of actual guilt. It's easier to claim he falsified the information so you'll let him remove his contributions (that's the "taking his ball and going home bit"). Perhaps he even things we've accused him of that (no one has, though) but really, I don't think we need to do anything. Willing to let someone else read into it and come to an outside view though. This is just how I read the situation. --Jayron3216:37, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
I agree. My inpression was that this editor made two very small 'errors' but acted wholly in good faith. He/she simply overeacted to our shared wish to improve this encyclopaedia. Their first minor mistake was unwittingly adding content based on a source they didnt know we had elected to distrust. Having taken umbridge at the way other editors dealt with them over the matter, they not unreasonably felt they wanted to withdraw all their work they had donated to improve the article. That seems a real shame. Their second 'error' was omitting the word "apparently" or "I'm told that" from their edit summary when deleting text they had been advised was unreliable. I am surprised you couldn't see that Guy, and I think if I had been them I would be doubly annoyed at Wikipedia for then taking them here to ANI. It would only serve to reinforce my belief that Wikipedia isn't the place for me. Maybe one lesson for us here is that our default ways of dealing with minor problem edits can easily be misinterpreted and seriously turn new people away who might otherwise go on to make sound contributions for many years. The alternative lesson is that some people will inevitably be easily offended and riled up by any reasonable challenge and are going to feel driven away, no matter what we do or say. I suspect the reality is somewhere between those two extremes. Nick Moyes (talk) 00:04, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
Alternately, you could read his words and see that he thought we were politically biased leftists for not accepting a source that had been deprecated for being literally untrustworthy for factual claims, and that he kept attributing its deprecation to us being biased against conservative sources rather than to it being literally untrustworthy for factual claims ... I am utterly unconvinced that there is any level of gentle response that would appease an editor quite this determined, and especially along these particular lines - David Gerard (talk) 00:58, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
I have encountered User:Feinoa a couple of months ago on a few pages I edit. While I believe they are editing in good faith, they seem to have some issues with understanding our guidelines as well the collaborative nature of our project, which are unfortunately causing disruption. Some of their behaviour is manifested as persistent edit warring and a refusal to initiate/participate in discussions on the talk page. Here are some examples
Long term edit warring and refusal to discuss at Grab (company). Here are the diffs. Although multiple editors have suggested them to open a talk page discussion, that has never happened
(Aug 2019) - I reverted to the stable version in Sep 2019. Explained on their talk page about my revert and requested them to open an article talk page discussion
Persistent removal of templates without attempting to discuss -
Oct 2019 cn tags removed with edit summary weirdly obsessive amounts of citations - Reverted by another editor pointing out that citation is mandatory in Wikipedia
Cn tags removed again Oct 2019 claiming "Not when there's 13 of them in a single article, with many of them absolutely unnecessary and not requiring a citation needed tag at all" - Reverted and editor points to WP:WHYCITE
Nov 2019 cn tags removed again after a month. No explanation or edit summary given
Edit warring to include information where source doesn't support the statement. It's not clear if they understand the importance of WP:V and citations
(There could be other problematic edits, but I haven't looked them up)
I believe that Feinoa is editing in good faith and it is clear that their intention is to contribute positively. However, some of their actions are creating a bit of mess which requires cleanup. I have tried to explain the issues multiple times on their talk page such as here, here and here. However, I am not sure if they are listening and they are accusing me of Wikihounding (see here and here). So I think it would be better if other members of the community could perhaps advise Feinoa about our guidelines and collaborative editing on Wikipedia.--DreamLinker (talk) 08:49, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
I agree that these edits and diffs show a long-term pattern of issues related to edit warring. Feinoa's contributions show evidence of participation on some talk pages (mostly the talk page for the Singapore article), but it appears that these issues have continued despite this participation. I also agree that Feinoa has been given multiple notes, notices, and warnings from different editors on his/her user talk page about these different issues as well, and that the issues have continued despite those repeated attempts to ask him/her to stop. At some point, things need to go up a notch and enough needs to be enough.
I think that the best thing to do is leave a warning on Feinoa's user talk page pointing them to a permalink of this ANI discussion, note the long-term issues that have been ongoing, and state that this long-term behavior needs to stop and that discussion and proper dispute resolution is expected from him/her moving forward. I'd conclude the warning message letting him/her know that, moving forward, editors will either immediately leave an edit warring notice if Feinoa repeats this same edit warring behavior on a particular article - and that these notices will serve as an indefinite finial warning, or they will file an appropriate report seeking administrative action if such a warning for the particular article has already been given. Then, stick to that ultimatum. I think that this will give Feinoa one final chance to stop the behavior (like you said, Feinoa seems to be attempting to edit in good faith - this will be an appropriate next step to take without jumping too far), and if this doesn't succeed and if it continues, he/she knows exactly what is going to happen. ~Oshwah~(talk)(contribs)13:28, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Here is the present AfD Editor removed my RPA template and the first PA and then added a different personal attack calling me "consistently disruptive".
FYI: I looked back in my history to see where this was coming from. the only other experience I found where I had conflict with the editor in July 2019 when the editor did a non-administrative closing of an AfD and editorialized the closing
Support warning Winged Blades of Godric for personal attacks and incivility and then I would ask another editor to RPA at the AfD- I do not want to edit war. Lightburst (talk) 18:08, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
You are a disruptive influence on nearly all AfDs, I have seen and I won't strike that. I have self-removed my first comment. ∯WBGconverse18:15, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
@Winged Blades of Godric:Do not make personal attacks anywhere on Wikipedia. Comment on content, not on the contributor. Personal attacks harm the Wikipedia community and the collegial atmosphere needed to create a good encyclopedia. Derogatory comments about other editors may be removed by any editor. Repeated or egregious personal attacks may lead to sanctions including blocks or even bans. Consider yourself warned. Paul August☎18:40, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
Paul August, just to confirm, can someone not be incompetent, even when they show incompetence towards a task they clearly cannot do? Secondly, can someone not be disruptive when they disrupt something? To you, this might be impertinent for me to ask, and I don't really care, but to me it's an opportunity to clarify semantics, which we should all care about. CassiantoTalk19:26, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
Obviously some people are incompetent. You seem to think it is not a personal attack as long as it's true. A personal attack is a personal attack whether it's true or not. Paul August☎19:51, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
Since when has the truth been "uncivil"? Would you describe John Wayne Gacy as a murderous scumbag psychopath, or is this "uncivil" in your world? Secondly, how can some people be incompetent but it be uncivil to call them so when they beg to differ? Thirdly, and linked to point two, would you take umbrage at someone who is skilled to be called "skilled", when they think they're not? Maybe you could also define what is a personal attack? I bet if differs to my interpretation. Do you not see what a lot of subjective bollocks this is? CassiantoTalk20:24, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
Paul August, do you seriously wish that I dig up old diffs of you calling other editors to be engaging in disruption and/or disruptive? I have self-removed incompetent, an hour before this was filed; not sure what's your issue with it ... ∯WBGconverse19:01, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
@Winged Blades of Godric: Dig away ;-) Outside of places like ANI, or ARBCOM, which are designated as places where it is appropriate to discuss other editor's behavior, I've never called another editor "disruptive" or "incompetent". And my "issue with it" (as I wrote above) is that "Personal attacks harm the Wikipedia community and the collegial atmosphere needed to create a good encyclopedia" and it's against policy. Have you read WP:NPA yet? Paul August☎19:37, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
I consider taunting another editor by asking if they've read an established policy to itself be a sanctionable personal attack at worst, and unproductive gutter-sniping at best, along the same vein of WP:DTTR. WaltCip (talk) 19:43, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
Your patronizing tone is well noted. My question was about your's choosing to be bothered with an edit of mine, that I have already self-redacted prior to this thread. At any case, I point you to SlaterSeven's reply, later in the thread - deeming PressReleases as materials lending passage of GNG/SIGCOV is textbook incompetency.
I read WP:NPA, following your sage advice and see that it starts with Do not make personal attacks anywhere on Wikipedia. It does not hold ANI/ARBCOM to be special places, at all. Now that you have indirectly accepted of having called other users as disruptive at ANI/ARBCOM, may be a mass-apology is in order, going by your new found definition of PA? ∯WBGconverse20:00, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
This is Wikipedia, if you deal with Wings you have to have a Wikipedian-backbone of "assume good faith", and just accept them as they are. My only comment would be to ask Wings to let up a bit on editors who can't take a boatload of insults without going to the authorities, and apologize to those editors once in awhile. Good for the soul. Randy Kryn (talk) 19:02, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
I agree with Paul. First, Wings removed the more attacking comment only after being pushed into it and never apologized for it. Second, calling someone disruptive is a personal attack. If there's evidence for it, then seek sanctions against the editor for persistent disruptive activity. Otherwise, don't call someone disruptive. I might add that Wings could have made their point without resorting to name-calling, so the insult is gratuitous.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:08, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
I wouldn't be opposed to getting rid of WP:CIV. It's an irredeemable dumpster-fire of subjective policy that leads to nothing but wasted time and breath on drama boards. Let people sort it out amongst themselves. That day will never come, of course. WaltCip (talk) 19:35, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
Support a discussion that includes—indeed focuses on, as it would seem to be the root cause of the affair—the alleged disruption from AfD, and any passive-aggression concomitant to it. (Which, as Slatersteven may be alluding to, is as much a form of incivility as aggression itself). ——SN5412919:28, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
Nope, what I was saying is why do we even have rules if the attitude towards those who break them is "well get used to their behavior". Our polices must apply to everyone or no one.Slatersteven (talk) 19:31, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
Maybe you'd like to live in a dystopian world where everyone speaks in fluffy pink language to one another whilst languishing on pillows of marshmallow and honey, but nothing would get sorted and this project would be all the more worse for it, if that were possible. This project, in years to come, would've been built on people having frank discussions, and honest, if somewhat heated at times, debates. CassiantoTalk19:40, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
Or maybe people should just not be dicks? If in your view that creates a dystopian future, perhaps you are on the wrong project. PackMecEng (talk) 19:42, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
...is exactly the type of subjective bullshit CIV seeks to confuse upon. Your WP:DICK might be another person's DICK. That doesn't make you right because you've said it first. And with regards to the wrong project? Maybe I am. Maybe we all are. Who knows? In 20 years time when there's a better online encyclopaedia out there, we might all be asking the same question. This one is failing and it's the fault of people not being able to talk constructively to one another and being strangled by safe spaces and snowflake "rules". CassiantoTalk19:48, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
However I must say that whilst WBG was not exactly civil I am not sure it raises to a serious PA, if (and it is an if) the user has done something that was incompetent then it should be called out wp:CIR. If they did indeed argue a press release established notability that would be incompetence as it is a gross misunderstanding of wp:n.Slatersteven (talk) 19:36, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
Not really Slatersteven, I did a quick search and saw overwhelming evidence of GNG. As did other editors. That I picked one PR is not problematic IMO. Lightburst (talk) 20:16, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
oppose- this user seems to spend half his time making specious arguments at XfD and the other half dobbing people in for things. Calls people vain, disruptive, and paranoid himself, yet is very sensitive and litigious when he's on the business end. This is not behaviour that I care to reward. ReykYO!19:33, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
I do consider camping at someone's contributions history in the hope of catching them out to be sad and pathetic. I'm not going to pretend otherwise. ReykYO!19:49, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
Sigh...always a fun place to visit this ANI. "You pays your money, you takes your choice", I'm afraid. In other news, how did your complaint to Arbcom go about you being "outed" (i.e., have the name of the account mentioned to which your current account still links to...?) You see, you are very keen, as mentioned above, to drag people to noticeboards, but seemingly have something of a blindspot for the necessary policy and procedures. Or is that a PA in you book too? ——SN5412919:54, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
I twice went to the editor's talk page. I was twice ignored. RPA the edit, editor restored. Then left a second personal attack. Here I am slogging through AfDs and contributing. It is ok if you do not like my contributions. I was discussing policy and the article. Not the editor. If personal attacks are ok we should rewrite the policy. Seems pretty clear by my actions that I was trying to avoid this messy place. Lightburst (talk) 20:01, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
The PA has already been removed. So I am out. If WBG is ok to go on like that attacking, lets rewrite the policies. Have a great weekend everyone. Lightburst (talk) 20:05, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
I agree with the above statements of Paul August, and I note that the participants in this discussion who happen to actually be administrators are generally on the same page. With respect to "snowflakery" comments by Cassianto, there is a concept called broken windows theory which would be worth your attention. It teaches that when low-level violations are permitted, this signals potential perpetrators that higher-level violations can also be gotten away with, while the enforcement of even the most basic laws signals that the law will be enforced throughout. On Wikipieda, civility is the law. We enforce it so as not to descend into the chaos of moral relativism. As for the proposition that an encyclopedia of nearly six million articles, including a substantial selection of in-depth coverage rivaling or exceeding the quality of professional endeavors, is "failing" is an... interesting... hill to stand on. Of course, those who really believe that this project is actually "failing" don't stick around to lament that feeling here. BD2412T20:25, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
The broken windows theory relates to Giuliani and his view that if you live in an area with a broken window, the rest of the neighbourhood will deteriorate. I agree with that theory, but it is not relevant to this discussion and is about as far removed from your point as is possible. Seeing as no one else is able to define it for me, maybe you can: what is a "personal attack"? CassiantoTalk20:33, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
I can assure you that broken windows theory is not contingent on there being an actual physical window that is actually broken. With respect to the definition of a personal attack, that is thoroughly described at WP:NPA, but can be summed up with the admonition that arguments should be addressed to the issue, not to the characteristics of those arguing the other side of that issue. There are specific fora where editor conduct itself is the issue being examined. AfD is not one of these. BD2412T20:53, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
No, I want your interpretation of it, not a lot of subjective nonsense written by complete incompetents...oops. Surely you're able to think for yourself and don't have to rely on other's views to justify your own? CassiantoTalk20:59, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
The admonition that arguments should be addressed to the issue, not to the characteristics of those arguing the other side of that issue is my interpretation of it. If the argument for a specific course of action, such as deletion of an article, can be made on the merits, then that is the only argument that should ever need to be made. BD2412T21:04, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
As I have indicated, that would depend on the context of the discussion. It is not unheard of for people to come to Wikipedia for the purpose of trolling. However, it would not be appropriate to use such a label merely to counter someone's disagreement in an editing dispute. BD2412T21:37, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
ANI threads need to have a consensus of all participants contra your attempted grant of privilege to the POV of janitors. At any case, Broken Windows Theory has a tonne of criticism, (many of which are not event mentioned in our article) and to put in a nutshell, neither the academia nor the practical word has been much kind to the proposition. That being said, I am thinking about bringing a proposal to deprecate WP:CIR, how can an outright PA (as so many of you seem to hold) be ever a supplement to a guideline? ∯WBGconverse20:46, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
Administrators have been vetted by the community as having trustworthy judgment. Of course, anyone can post their opinion on this noticeboard, but ANI is not a vote any more than any other discussion; the administrator who closes this discussion will properly take into account the judgment of those who participate. BD2412T20:58, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
Oppose - You know the project has gone to shit when terms such as "incompetent" are now considered a personal attack. Lightburst may I suggest you grow up and grow a thicker skin?. –Davey2010Talk21:10, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
Not to be disrespectful but that's your opinion, I see no condescension in my post, I simply don't agree being called incompetent should be labelled as a personal attack .... Idiot, Moron etc sure but Incompetent ?... Not really but like I say Agree to disagree :). –Davey2010Talk21:31, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
Support a warning Actually, I was about to give a formal warning to WBG when I saw this had been brought here. "incompetent" when used as a reply to an argument in an AfD is a PA; the proper thing to say is, at most, something like "your argument does not seem relevant". A negative term directly addressed to a user is a PA. The key characteristic is it being directly addressed to the user, which is why saying "CIR" is not a PA, tho if said inappropriately it may also be impolite. I agree completely with 'BD2412 and PA. The behavior of the other party is not relevant. If one replies to a PA by a PA, both parties are in the wrong. This is the sort of behavior I hope the next arb com will finally address.
But , Atsme, condescension is not literally a PA; it is impolite, and impoliteness short of a PA is also a matter of concern. But it is very hard to judge the degree of things like condescension,; direct PAs are much easier to determine, so its reasonable for us to start improving matters by dealing with them, before we get to the subtleties. . DGG ( talk ) 21:33, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
The issue isn't whether "incompetent" is universally a personal attack, it's that in a very normal AfD discussion about sources, WBG, for no reason, called the editor incompetent to belittle them and discount their opinion. If you want to know why the "project is going to shit" it's that any time someone popular gets told meta:Don't be a jerk editors come out of the woodwork to argue why and under what conditions we get to be jerks to each other. If WBG (or anyone) has legitimate concerns about WP:CIR or other disruption on the part of another editor, the proper way to handle it is to bring it to a noticeboard like this with evidence (see WP:ASPERSIONS), not engage in ad hominem at AfD. I agree with BD2412; looking at the first diff posted I do not believe that is the kind of interaction we should be encouraging. Everyone has off days, we can recognize that without circling the wagons and normalizing toxic interactions. (edit conflict) Wug·a·po·des 21:41, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Lazy-restless was indefinitely blocked by Drmies on 18 November 2019. There is consensus that should Lazy-restless be unblocked, they will be subjected to an indefinite topic ban from (1) the subject of religion and (2) the subject of sexuality - broadly construed for both subjects. (non-admin closure) starship.paint (talk)01:40, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Lazy-restless caught my attention after he had made this comment, and his history on Wikipedia shows that he has been trying to push a WP:FRINGE theory, which claims that Muhammad is a messiah of Hinduism. So far it is clear that Lazy-restless has no idea what is WP:RS, WP:SPS, WP:FRINGE and WP:BATTLE.
I just looked a bit more through their editing history. That, and their latest edits/comments suggest someone clueless about the Vedas, when Bhagavat Purana was written, etc. That is not the problem here though, as we don't expect editors to be experts in the subject or field they are contributing. The problem is the repeated disregard for our content guidelines, repeated use of questionable and fringe sources in topic areas that are sensitive/controversial/provocative. Possibly a WP:NOTHERE who should move their attention to subjects/topics other than Indian religions, broadly construed. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:07, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
Another problem with this user's edits seems to be quotation farming.[58] I support a topic ban from religion since the problem is wider than just Hindu-Muslim relations subject. Aman Kumar Goel(Talk)18:52, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
That is problematic. I favor a warning, rather than a topic ban as an incremental step to let them learn / reform.@Lazy-restless: Why this recent massive WP:QUOTEFARM-ing of primary sources here, without a cite to any WP:RS? Would you be willing to self-revert please, and instead focus on summarizing scholarly sources such as this. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 03:31, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Topic ban from religion and from sexuality indefinitely,[updated] or even block. I've dealt with this user before and they are a pusher of fringe viewpoints. For example, here, after misinterpreting a scientific study, he said All your edit attempts based on sexuality and orientation seems pseudointellectual to me. and pointed to some preacher's blog as justification. In this talk page discussion he wants to use centuries old Christian sermons as sources, and he points to a YouTube video and claims the articles, either theoritical or informative, about homosexuality in English wikipedia tend to be too much influenced by homosexuality-friendly western notion's point of view.
The AfDs and other evidence above show he has been doing this for years. The first AfD is from 2014. (He used to be "Sharif uddin".) He's also made a bunch of edits to LGBT in Islam which I never had time to look over. It's clear that he does push fringe theories, and that this is an ongoing pattern of behavior which he is not stopping despite what others say. He's already had the chance to reform and has not. In my experience such users often succeed in placing their poorly sourced POV content in a few places where it remains for years, because those places weren't scrutinized, so we need to prevent any further damage from him continuing to do so. -Crossroads- (talk) 17:38, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
I've updated my proposed topic ban to include sexuality and to be indefinite based on the evidence below and on thinking it over. Since this has been ongoing for so long, and they have over and over again, many times, been admonished by others and yet not changed their overall behavior, I see no benefit from this being temporary. It just means he can then resume the behavior with the possibility no one will notice and more damage can be done, and that someone must put forth effort to notice and to bring him back here. -Crossroads- (talk) 17:08, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Topic ban from sexuality and from religion. Lazy-restless is one of our more problematic editors, on both religious and sexual topics. He, for example, will add a bunch of text that shouldn't be added, disregard WP:due, repeatedly commit copyright violations, engage in WP:Synthesis, misrepresent sources, and edit war. His talk page extensively documents these and other problems, as seen here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here. These examples span years. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 13:46, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Support a time-limited topic ban per Flyer22 Reborn, say 1 to 3 months (I have struck out my earlier "favor warning" preference, in light of the evidence presented and their continued more-of-the-same editing without responding to my question above); if they repeat after the sanctioned period, recommend indef. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:20, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
The problems with this editor continue, as their edits to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Religion prove, and to Islah, which they turned into a quotefarm. Other indicators of their inability to work on a collaborative project is a total lack of edit summaries. They seem to have a really, really hard time with copyright, and it's funny to see how many times they were warned for messing with various sexuality templates. Finally, of course, they never bothered to show up here to discuss matters, and as it turns out they've been warned many a time, and blocked three times for various kinds of uncollaborativeness. So, I propose we have had enough of this, and I am going to block indefinitely for a combination of disruptive editing, refusal to communicate, original research, edit warring, and, in the end, incompetence. Drmies (talk) 03:10, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
I agree with the block, but in case there's a successful unblock request (somebody is already suggesting what needs to be done for an unblock) I support indefinite topic ban from religion and sexuality as proposed. It could be lifted in the future should we see some understanding of how to use reliable sources pertaining to the two subjects, but the mere passing of time will not achieve that (not for someone who has been editing here since 2014) and so I think it needs to be indef. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 19:15, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This IP, self-identified as "Lutz Fehling", came to the Teahouse to complain that they were blocked on dewiki. It's been repeatedly explained to them that they're barking up the wrong branch of the wrong tree, and they've even acknowledged understanding of that, but they continue to post inappropriately about censorship, conspiracy, "bad wikipedia people", etc. Clearly WP:NOTHERE and disruptive. They have used at least two IPs in the last few days, and there may be some collateral in a /24. A couple weeks' timeout should be enough to get them to find something else to do. —[AlanM1(talk)]—03:11, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
A new-ish editor has been recently adding excessive links in articles. Some of the links are probably just fine, but they go on to link every occurrence in an article, sometimes making two blue wikilinks to the same article in a single sentence. This is a typical example. I left a message on their talk page referring them to MOS:DUPLINK. There was no response and this editing pattern has continued. MB03:15, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
This does look to be becoming a bit of an issue, especially considering they're adding multiple links to the same article in a section, which is against WP:REPEATLINK. I don't know why they think it's necessary to link to Federalist Party and Democratic Party multiple times in consecutive sentences. Ss11205:40, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
A block for you: I hereby award you the "Friendly block for non-communication" in recognition of all your contributions to the mainspace even to the neglect of your own user talk page. UsedtobecoolTALK✨07:41, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
The overlinking is indeed excessive, and some of it needs to be removed; on the other hand, some of their links look useful. This is a new editor, we should not be talking about blocking just yet, let's give them a chance to take on board what people are telling them. I'll drop them a note. GirthSummit (blether)11:14, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
MJL, they haven't responded directly, but looking at their contribs shows a big improvement. They're still adding links, and I think are still going a bit too far, but they have reined it in a fair way. GirthSummit (blether)09:09, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
MJL, as far as I'm concerned, there's no administrative action required here. I've dropped them another note with a link to SOB (an abbreviation that always concerns me slightly!), but this seems like someone who is capable of responding to suggestions, even if they're not very communicative. GirthSummit (blether)15:26, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
AP2 noticeboard proposal advertised but now archived
I don't know what to do about this. Malmmf is doing great work updating NCES attendance data, and is now also adding the NCES faculty and ratio data, but is still not updating the ref access date. In fact, the refs are now worse. He or she is now removing the access date completely, along with the title field and the publisher field, and formatting the ref as a bare URL See [59] for example. This is not appropriate. Meters (talk) 22:07, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
It would also be appreciated if Malmmf would start adding edit summaries again. About 38,000 edits so far this year, but only 420 edit summaries..... Meters (talk) 22:21, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
When I was told to update the access date, it didn't register to me that they were talking about the references I had been putting in whenever I made the updates; I thought the bare URL was fine (clearly my mistake), and I thought they were talking about when I was updating a school page that already had an NCES reference that I could use instead of the bare URL I was using. That's clearly my fault for not understanding correctly; I had seen a bare URL ref on some other pages and thought it was fine. I've begun updating again and adding access date and other info, so let me know if I'm now doing it correctly. Malmmf (talk) 09:31, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
Hmmmm, I'm finding it difficult to believe that "it didn't register to me that they were talking about the references I had been putting in", because when you were first told about this in January 2019 (see above), the editor said: "However, the access date to the source cited has not been changed. Could you clarify?" to which you responded with "Yes, I just sometimes forget at times to change the access date. The school enrollment numbers & years are correct, it just sometimes slips my mind to change the access date. Will work on that."
Noooo bare URL's are not good; see WP:BAREURLS. Yeah it's better to follow Wikipedia's policies and guidelines instead of using other articles as a basis in that some of them will have issues, in this case the bare URL's you encountered. Also, many school articles are in a problematic state. Looking at your contribution history, I can see that you are updating NCES stats at a rapid pace which leads me to think that, by not updating the access date or removing this including the other reference fields (forgot to mention this here, thanks Meters), it could be a way of "speeding things up" or maybe just being lazy? Anyway, I can see that you are now updating the access date which is good but there are two more problems I can see now:
1. You're adding the ref name as <ref name=NCES></ref> (example diff) which is slightly incorrect. The correct format is <ref name="NCES" /> — see WP:REFNAME
2. An editor posted on your talk that you added two different values for ratio. I had a look at the infobox before your edit and there was no ratio parameter, so you added two ratio with different values which I'm not sure how you managed to do that, also please ensure that a parameter is not used more than once
There is nothing wrong with using <ref name=NCES>. The quotes are only required if there is a space or other special character in the ref name.Now that the refs are no longer being stripped down to bare URL I'm more concerned with the continued lack of edit summaries. Meters (talk) 19:56, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
The quotes is the default way, I mean the ending </ref>. Yeah that's the other problem, just a simple "Updated NCES stats" or something would suffice. Steven (Editor) (talk) 20:44, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
For the January 2019 response I gave recognizing that I was forgetting the access dates and would work on it, I DID know that it was for the references I had added in; however, that was almost a year ago and I took a super long break in which I did not update NCES stats, and I just now recently started up again, and I just hadn't thought of it. Also, when I used to update NCES stats, I was just updating enrollment and using the source once, so I didn't have to worry about adding <ref name="NCES" /> that allows me to use one source for multiple things; now that I was told to also update ratio and staff, I had to figure out how to correctly format a source that will be used multiple times, which I clearly was doing wrong as I was turning them all into bare URLs. Thanks for the correct ref name; I will start using that. I will work on the edit summaries as well. Malmmf (talk) 22:44, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
Much better now. Access dates, no bare URLs, and about half of the edits have summaries now. I'll just point out that it would be better if you were consistent with your ref names though. It works when you define a ref name without quotes (<ref name=NCES>) and reuse it with quotes (<ref name="NCES"/>) in the same article, but only because you are using a ref name with no spaces or special characters. If you try that with a more complicated ref name it will fail. Meters (talk) 04:10, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
Yep, much better and please take your time when updating so you can ensure everything is done correctly, there is no need to rush. Will post a note on your talk about the dedicated parameter and accompanying templates. Steven (Editor) (talk) 22:41, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
talk:Father was blanked by a vandal. I would like to revert the page but because it contained a blacklisted link it is being blocked. Can this be done by an administrator or is there another way to do this? Thanks! Paisarepa (talk) 02:27, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
@Paisarepa and AddWittyNameHere: Next time you encounter this problem, try to save the page contents to a sandbox. It will fail but it will list the blacklisted link so that you may find and remove it. You want to remove them because the talk page will not archive if it contains a blacklisted link. — Berean Hunter(talk)03:53, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
Fair point, Berean Hunter. Figured restoring it to the status quo, even if that meant including the blacklisted link, was preferable over leaving it blanked, but you're absolutely right that going that extra step to actually hunt down and remove said link would have been even better. AddWittyNameHere03:55, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
Persistent unsourced changes / vandalism to genetics data by Florence IPs
A series of IPs that geolocate to Florence, Italy, have been making many unsourced and seemingly-random changes to genetics data in various articles, over the past half a year or so. They haven't responded to warnings and requests to communicate. I've reverted many of their changes after checking the cited sources to confirm. I got temporary page protection on one article where they've been particularly disruptive lately (see Talk:Haplogroup E-M215 (Y-DNA)#Unsourced and unexplained changes to data). I'm not sure if anything can be done in terms of blocking. Mainly I wanted to point it out, and see if I'm correct in continuing to revert them, as I don't want to be seen as edit-warring.
The edits appear to be vandalism, i.e., the numbers are just randomly made-up changes rather than actual data found in another study that is not cited. For example in this edit: [60], many of the integer parts of the numbers are changed, while the decimal parts are left the same, which seems unlikely. Also, the number of participants in the study is left the same, while only the outcomes are changed. When their changes are reverted, they edit war and repeatedly change the numbers, though sometimes with different numbers than they used the last time. Again this suggests that it's random vandalism rather than legitimate numbers from other unnamed sources.
IPs include:
62.19.169.105 (talk) (I left a "final warning" for vandalism today on their talk page)
- the above are from the range Special:Contributions/62.19.128.0/18, and are all short-term, only lasting one day. I think they're all the same person, though a couple have only one edit so it's hard to say. I guess it's not possible to block the range, since there are a fair number of other anonymous editors there too.
IamNotU, I have soft-blocked the range and some of the more persistent IP addresses with a note that they should create an account. This will at least prevent the IP hopping, intentional or not, and allow for a single point of communication unless they sock. — Berean Hunter(talk)04:26, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This editor is spamming links to pornographic websites into Deepfake. These websites use sophisticated digital graphics to create faked celebrity porn. This editor is trying to include staged pornographic images in Masturbation. In my opinion, this editor needs a block but I would like input from uninvolved administrators. This is a new account that made a quick series of uncontroversial edits to get autoconfirmed and then set out to add porn to the encylopedia. Cullen328Let's discuss it08:05, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
First, I did not added spamming links to deepfakes. In the pornography section I listed current websites hosting that content, which is basic encyclopedic content, and then cited each one, as one should do to WP:VERIFY. That is not WP:SPAM. Second, I didn't realize there would be disagreement about the masturbation images. I'm currently discussing them on the talk page right now trying to build consensus per WP:BRD.
Considering how this user continually emphasizes that these are citations to porn (and even gave an off-topic explaination of what deepfake porn was in an incident request), they just seem to be against pornographic material and want me blocked because I'm contributing to porn-related articles in a way they disagree with. As for personal attack against me abusing autoconfirmed privilages, Deepfakes doesn't even have autoconfirmed protection. I could edit that as an IP. I didn't wait to become autoconfirmed just so I could add content some people may disagree with. Please assume good faith here. VF9 (talk) 08:21, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
Again, content you don't like is not categorically spam. I'm not removing warnings to delay action. I just don't like looking at them, especially when they're incorrect. And potential good faith copyright violations really shouldn't be discussed here, especially when the commons admins have already told you they were not copyright violations. VF9 (talk) 09:11, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
This editor seems to be on a bit of a mission to add unnecessary images into Wikipedia articles that some might deem staged and pornographic, whilst justifying their actions on the grounds that Wikipedia is not censored, and therefore it's ok to add them against the views of other editors, when both text and images (usually less graphic) already exist in the article that explain the topic perfectly well. I have just undone their addition of a moving gif image to Fingering (sexual act) on the grounds that such an image adds nothing of encyclopaedia-enhancing value to the article that isn't already fairly obvious from the current Commons artwork on the page. They immediately reinstated it, citing my own edit summary as justification to reinsert it -no pun intended (diff). Notwithtanding the edit warring they've been warned about on their talk page, this matter seems akin to any other editor being told that material they are repeatedly adding is not enhancing the encyclopaedia, yet continues to do so. This and further edit warring to get their way against the views of other editors is disruptive, and should lead to a block if it continues. Nick Moyes (talk) 10:47, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I'm having some issues with Mriganka Reading around not using sources[63], editing episode counts for future dates[64] and general lack of communication[65]. I've left short nice messages, longer nice messages with details and why and there are multiple templated warnings for various issues from other editors as well. At this point, I would really appreciate an admin reviewing this and blocking to force them to communicate. There's a feeling of COI / Undeclared paid editing with their focus on certain topics (Rengoni and related shows). Thank you. Ravensfire (talk) 16:17, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
Any thoughts or comments from anyone on this? [66], [67], [68]. Seriously admins, could use some help here. It's a utterly stupid, minor thing, but still could use some help. Ravensfire (talk) 13:53, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
@Ravensfire: I've blocked them for 31 hours. If they continue the disruption, please let me know. I'm getting the sense that this is a WP:CIR issue, with emphasis on English not being their strong suit. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 15:17, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
On November 1st I deleted the above mentioned article on CSD-A7 grounds, however Oakshade (talk·contribs) felt that the article should be reinstated and took it to deletion review, where the consensus was that the article would likely end up deleted either in csd or at an afd. It was closed with the article still red linked, then for some reason revisited several days later by Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk·contribs). When an afd was filed no one bothered to notify any of the deletion review participatns, which in my opinion was a clear and blatant attempt at disruptive editing by intentionally attempting to game the system when so many others had clearly and unmistakably voiced the article's likelyhood of deletion at AFD. I ask the admin community to look into this on two grounds:
Was the apparent deliberate attempt by Oakshade to omit a notification constitutes a clear and obvious attempt to game the system, and if so,
(refined the above question to preserve its essence) Did the failure to notify the previous participants of the sudden change in the deletion review closure results from "remain deleted" to "relist at afd" prevent consensus building from the previous editors who expressed an interest in the case, and if so
Nope, I'm still lost. Why would Oakshade be responsible for notifying people of an AfD initiated by SportingFlyer, based on an undeletion by Jo-Jo Eumerus? WilyD14:48, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
Because Jo-Jo Eumerus waited 5 days after the deletion review was closed as "no consensus and therefore should be kept deleted" to "no consensus therefore it would be listed at afd". If that had happened right after the closure of the deletion review then the participants would have known to go over the afd because that was the consensus at DR. Why wait 5 days to decide that you made a mistake and then tell no one about it? That sounds awfully convenient, All the more so since people like me walked away from the deletion review under the (apparently mistaken) impression that the issue was resolved as "remain deleted". My summation here is that after Jo-Jo Eumerus realized his mistake and corrected it he failed to assume good faith by not notifying the deletion review participants of his error, and that knowing the article would have otherwise been deleted Oakshade made a deliberate attempt to hide the fact that afd was ongoing to artificially inflate the support camp by preventing the oppose camp from participating in the review. Thats why we are here. TomStar81 (Talk) 14:44, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
Jo-Jo Eumerus undeleted it based on a conversation with Cunard. So, again, how does Oakshade have any responsibilities here? WilyD14:48, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
Because he was the one who stood against the csd originally, which in turn set this whole thing into motion. He saw who initiated the deletion review, and he Ivoted in the afd. He knew that the deletion review people had opined for relist and deleted and made no effort to inform them between his post at the afd on November 20 and the closure on November 24. WP:CONSENSUS requires that everyone have a chance to weigh in, and those at the deletion review weighed in, so why then intentionally fail to mention the afd when so many believed the original deletion was correct or that an afd would result in deletion? TomStar81 (Talk) 14:58, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
TomStar81, but the DRV did notopine for relist and deleted; there was no consensus in the DRV, and some (such as I) opined for "restore and do not list at AfD". Everyone in the DRV should have realized that by DRV procedures a "no consensus" on a speedy deletion defaults to OVERTURN, because a speedy is supposed to be an uncontroversial deletion, and if there was no consensus to endorse the speedy, then it was not uncontroversial, and so should be overturned. DES(talk)DESiegel Contribs15:40, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
@DESiegel: yes it is, and I have no excuse. I'm tired, and cranky, and pissed off over this whole affair. That being said, two wrongs don't make a right. I aplogize to the community and to Oakshade for my angry comments. We have enough drama, as an admin I should know that, and it is conduct unbecoming to add to it in this manner. TomStar81 (Talk) 14:58, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
(Multiple EC) This is why you should never WP:ABF. As they've already explained, Jo-Jo Eumerus did not "wait" for anything. They made an acknowledge mistake. When they were informed of that mistake, they promptly corrected it [69][70]. Yes this was about 5 days after the mistake happened, but it wasn't because they or anyone else was waiting to that no one would notice, it was just because that's how long it took for someone to notice. After this happened, SportingFlyer who participated in the deletion review and clearly wanted the article deleted opened an AFD. User:Levivich who also participated in the deletion review and also initially wanted the article deleted then joined. Later, Cunard and ScopeCreep also joined in. Cunard was obviously aware of the deletion review, maybe not ScopeCreep. Eventually Oakshade about 4 days after the AFD was opened also joined in. Somehow according to you Oakshade had responsibility to inform people of the AFD, and no one else. In reality anyone could have informed the participants and nearly all of them knew about the deletion review, really the only one who had more expectation would be SportingFlyer who opened the AFD but frankly that's very minor. But I say expectation for a reason, IMO it would have been better if they had do so, but there is no requirement and I don't fault them for not doing so since it takes times especially with so many participants. And it's not like the deletion was that lacking in notifications or participants. I mean I could ABF that you were aware of the AFD and chose to ignore it because you wanted to make some dumb procedural point but I see no reason to make such a weird assumption so I don't know why you are doing that about multiple editors. Nil Einne (talk) 15:05, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
Because some one out there should have considered the rest of the participants and whether or not they would like a chance to weigh in on the matter. I maintain - and long have maintained - that failure to notify interested parties about such matters constitutes a breach of good faith because if someone cared enough to weigh in the first time around then they are likely to participate later if give a fair chance to do so. Why then cut out the rest of us? In this case I could understand why the nominator wouldn't alert us if he didn't know about the deletion review, but others like Oakshade did and that information concerning the decision to open the afd should have been passed to the rest of us so that we could have a fair chance to participate in it if we so desired. Now I've been intentionally cut out the process, along with maybe half a dozen others, and the results are closed and certified as "fair" when they clearly aren't because we were never given the chance to participate. I feel that this general situation of failure to notify almost always taints an afd by destroying the spirit of consensus since its obvious without the previous participants an outcome tilts in favor of one side or another. Where then is the consensus when those who would help build it are not invite to be a part of it? TomStar81 (Talk) 15:25, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
(edit conflict) See User_talk:Jo-Jo_Eumerus/Archive_52#Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2019_November_4#Lera_Loeb for why it was undeleted and sent to AfD. I was not aware of the AfD, or I would have participated. I argued at DRV that this was NOT a valid A7 speedy. I haven't reveiwed the soruces enough to have a view on notability. To the best of my understanding, when an article previously at DRV is restored and sent to AfD, there is no obligation, not even a best practice, of notifying the DRV participaants, and it surely does not invalidate the AfD result. DRV merely speculated on a possible AfD result, and did not do the kind of source analysis that ought to be done at an AfD. Nor was the article available for cleanup during the DRV as it would be at an AfD. I agree that Process is Important but I see no process violation here. My advice: wait six months. If you still think this article does not belong, nominate it fgor a new AfD then. DES(talk)DESiegel Contribs14:40, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
(EC) Considering the person who opened the AFD, which is SportingFlyer not Oakshade, clearly wanted it deleted as their opening statement says, as you would expect when someone opens an AFD, I find it quite troubling you're suggesting they're attempting to game the system. Are you seriously suggesting they didn't actually want it deleted but just opened an AFD in the hope it would fail since no one noticed it? If not, I urge you to clarify your comment. I do agree it probably would have been better to notify the deletion review participants. As others have said, anyone could have done so although if you weren't aware of this AFD then I don't fault you for not doing so. Whatever the case, I don't see a reason to "void" the results. IMO, it would be acceptable to reopen the AFD if there is compelling reason to think there may be a different outcome if people were notified. Or maybe even open a new AFD despite the reason AFD. But considering this closed as keep and not no consensus, and while participation was small it wasn't that small and included at least one deletion review participant who changed their mind, and that people probably don't apply the same level of scrutiny before commenting on deletion views since they tend to be procedural issues as much as anything, I'm not convinced a delete was likely. At most a no consensus so really I see no point. So while I wouldn't oppose re-opening the AFD or opening a new one, I wouldn't support it either. Nil Einne (talk) 14:46, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
I'm glad that TomStar81 has acknowledged their mistakes but considering how this issue seems to have clouded their judgement, I would oppose re-opening the AFD or opening a new one in the short term based solely on their belief that a different outcome is likely. My comments on not opposing or supporting stand for other editors who feel the same. Nil Einne (talk) 15:30, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
Oakshade here. For the record, I had absolutely nothing to do with the DRV review results that officially ended as "No Consensus" nor the nomination of the AfD. The AfD was created by a different editor and I was simply a participant. In the DRV, administrator JoJo Eumerus initially deleted the article, but it was explained to them by Cunard (talk·contribs) that no consensus overturns speedy deletions per the official Wikipedia:Deletion review#Closing reviews[71] and then quickly reinstated it.[72] Again, I had nothing to do with that reinstating of the article. I had absolutely nothing to do with the AfDing of this article so it's extremely odd that I'm being accused of not notifying anyone as there is no obligation for I or anyone to notify anyone of an AfD except for the article creator (me). Again I was simply a participant in the AfD.
More disturbingly this is appearing that TomStar81 is angry that their initial A7 criteria deletion was considered invalid and hence it was overturned. When they first deleted it I politely asked that it be re-instated [73] (I first thought he was the the tagging editor and I apologized to him for that confusion). Initially TomStar81 left an very un-administrator and threatening comment on my talk page threatening that if I take their initial deletion of the article on the grounds of A7 to DRV, I will end in "defeat."[74] It was pointed out to TomStar81 by multiple administrators and editors that the arguable notability and significance-satisfying verbiage and independent coverage already linked in the article negated A7 as A7 is a much lower standard than notability.
This ANI is sadly looking like a sour grapes situation. When we don't get our way, TomStart81 should practice the maturity we expect in all administrators and editors; accept it and move on.Oakshade (talk) 15:18, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
Except that is not what happened at all. The article was kept deleted, then posted at afd. You had see in the deletion review so many that leaned toward deletion -either certifying the csd or moving it to afd - and yet for four days you sat on the afd intentionally cutting these people out. If we are invited to participate, and it ends up being a keep, then I will be the first to congratulate you, but when you are so afraid of involving the delete-minded editors that you hide the presence of the afd from us to artificially inflate the keep votes so that the article remains here then I object - loudly. Its not that hard to get on your keyboard and compose a message and leave it with the DR participants or use the ping system to draw our attention to the article's afd. If I can do, then surely you can do it too. TomStar81 (Talk) 15:38, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
There would be no need to congratulate me. I don't see dispute outcomes as "victory" or "defeat" for parties. Again, this wasn't my AfD. The AfD nominator, who wasn't me, actually participated in the DRV, as did others in the AfD. You can start an ANI against them, but that would also be a nonsensical one. Please listen to the other adminstrators and editors. Oakshade (talk) 15:44, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
Comment. There is not a requirement that participants be notified per WP:AFD in addition it is not even required to notify the creator of the article. While not required, it is generally considered courteous to notify the good-faith creator and any main contributors of the articles that you are nominating for deletion. I am unsure how I would have !voted, however I !voted at DRV to overturn the speedy and relist. Lightburst (talk) 15:32, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
But you would have had the opportunity to participate, and thats why I'm here: we should have been notified. In this case, under these circumstances, we should have been notified. We should have. And for us to have been cut out like this does, I feel, constitute an act of bad faith. TomStar81 (Talk) 15:40, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
I agree with you regarding a good faith effort to notify. I am an editor who looks for WP:ATD. I look through AfDs every day and I did see this one, however I did not have the time to investigate. One thing that is maddening is that an article can be nominated over and over, so if you feel that it is not fit for WP, you can nominate it again. Lightburst (talk) 15:43, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
In fairness I did think about doing exactly that, however after filing the afd and previewing it I sat and thought for a moment and realized that I was editing under the influence of my emotions, and that it would likely not be seen and a good faith effort to relist and gather the whole body but an attempt by one disgruntled editor to disrupt to make a point. I thought about telling Oaksheild to piss off in foul language, and was editing to that effect, then decided that that course of action would more likely be seen as a personal attack. I thought about deletion review, but why would you review an article that was saved? That seemed a dick move by any standard, so weighing the options I decided here would be best. In the court of opinions we can debate the matter in a civilized fashion under the watchful eyes of the admin corps and they can arbitrate the issue. TomStar81 (Talk) 15:50, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
(edit conflict) TomStar81 Current procedures do not require -- do not even recommend as good practice -- that participants in previous discussions about an article's possible deletion be notified of a new deletion discussion. If you really feel that this should be mandatory -- and so essential that failure to notify should void the AfD, then i suggest starting an RfC at WP:DEL or soem other appropriate page to make that the procedure. Perhaps a bot could be created to automatically make such notifications. But the community has not adopted thsat as a written guideline or policy, and it is common practice not to ping the participants in a previous AfD when a new one is filed.
I also don't see any grounds for repeating that you and others were intentionally denied a chance to participate. I doubt very much that anyone was attempting to exclude you. There was an error in procedure in the initial close being followed by a delete, but I do not see that as intentional, and it is simply not routine for participants in prior discussions to be notified (unlike article creators) so the fialure to do so does not amount to a surprising lapse. Normal procedure was followed. I think you should drop this stick. DES(talk)DESiegel Contribs15:53, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
If consensus here emerges to that effect I will do so. I'm aware that I lean inclusionist, so I tend to be very pissy when no one drops me a line since once something gets deleted it generally doesn't come back. I believe I've put forward mandatory notifications before, but given the presence of the LTA page (and cases of this nature) its not gotten a lot of traction. I made a issue out of this because of the failure in the procedure which I'm sure would have impacted the outcome of the afd in this specific case if only we had been told about it, but no cared enough to come get us. Its sad, but its not the first time its happened and I'm sure it won't be the last. TomStar81 (Talk) 16:02, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
I don't think there's a conduct issue to review here. We've got ourselves tied in a knot but the procedures have been followed as written and nobody has behaved in bad faith. Arguably there may be an issue for DRV but I wouldn't personally bring it there. The old article was poor and used atrocious sources and needed to be deleted, but it's been thoroughly overwritten and the sources have been fully replaced with better ones. I think we're looking at a WP:HEY improvement.—S MarshallT/C16:01, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
If there is, I certainly can't see what it was, and TomStar81 seems to be conflating different editors in a way that makes their accusations impossible for me to follow. If, somehow, the DRV undeletion was incorrect, and deletion was proper ... well, we have a new version that was kept at AfD, so now everything's where it's supposed to be. WilyD16:17, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
::Since I was pinged, I will say that I think that the system was gamed by not notifying the DRV participants. The turnout at the AFD was far less than at the DRV. I don't know what if anything should be done. This may be a case of the system being gamed in a way that cannot be set right. There is so little harm done in having a useless stub that it isn't worth righting, but the article is a useless stub. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:40, 25 November 2019 (UTC) Striking only because of edit conflict when the thread was closed while I was posting. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:41, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
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Hello, i m French (Sorry for my english) and i watch Scout MLG User page Is getting blocked on french Wikipedia because he made massive personal attacks and massive Neo-nazi activity :[75]
And i checked his userpage on English wikipedia he is already blocked for socking. Since several months, I noticed on my watchlist and global account infomation that User:Scout_MLG is adding a lot of strange edits on other language Wikipedia project, and mostly in Neo-Nazi activity:
- in Chinese Wikipedia (His Userpage): [76] and his talk page: [77]
There is currently a glock request at meta. Also, I've re-blocked your VPN. It's bad manners to request admin action from behind a VPN. -- zzuuzz(talk)10:01, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
Administrator note I have abbreviated the very long title. The concern appears to be alleged stalking of edits and disruptive behavior by the above IP. -Ad Orientem (talk) 05:24, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
The cause of this is apparently due to a dispute I am having with him/her in regard to another article. Sometimes, entire sections that predate my edits have been removed from an article. The article in which the dispute has originated appears to involve at least two users, however, only one user appears to be going through my edit history and sabotaging other articles. I am not sure how to proceed with handling this situation, and would like to talk to an administrator. All other relevant information is as follows:
User who I believe to be going through my edit history and sabotaging articles: 2604:2000:1280:A126:78A5:E4A9:CC09:2263
Hi B719603. First you need to sign your posts, especially here. Second, you need to notify all concerned parties on their talk pages which as of this comment you have not done. Third, you need to provide diffs if at all possible. I advise you to correct these issues and consider lesser measures before coming here. See WP:DR for suggestions. -Ad Orientem (talk) 05:20, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
My apologies. I am new to using these noticeboards. I do not know how to access the users talk page; the user is using his IP address as far as i'm aware. If you could tell me how to do this, I will notify the user as soon as possible. Also, I will continue to seek a solution outside of this noticeboard. B719603 (talk) 18:45, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
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Alainlambert (talk·contribs) was blocked for 24 hours by El C for edit-warring, primarily at John Brennan (CIA officer), where he was warned about BLP by multiple editors. I was among the editors who reverted and warned. Upon release of the block he made one edit, and created Spurjump (talk·contribs), who continued to edit-war, and acknowledged that they were evading their block [83], apparently in retaliation for being reported by Muboshgu at AN3. Because of this acknowledgement, I've blocked Alainlambert for a week for abusing multiple accounts and for continuing to edit-war via socks. Since I've reverted (on the basis of BLP), I bring this up here for transparency. Given their lack of constructive engagement [84][85] I suggest an indefinite NOTHERE block. Acroterion(talk)01:16, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
@Acroterion: Spurjump is an Architect 134 joe job, Unrelated to Alainlambert. You were right to be suspicious, but Alainlambert should be unblocked - they were simply being framed by an LTA. ST47 (talk) 01:27, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
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This editor has repeatedly adding production codes with The Futon Critic links on Episode tables (specifically on yet to air episodes), claiming that the The Futon Critic links provide the production codes when they do not provide them for certain TV series at all, despite several warnings. This is considered to be improperly source of content and WP:OR as the production codes are not on the reliable sources which make them unsourced. Assuming the production codes based on the numbers next to the episode titles on The Futon Critic links is also WP:OR. — YoungForever(talk)00:49, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
(Non-administrator) I would advise copyediting this comment. The grammar is off and makes it difficult to discern what the problem is. In general, The Futon Critic is a reliable source and one that is used quite often. If the user is deliberately using them to "cite" something that they don't actually say, that's definitely disruptive. The operative word being deliberately, which would need to be evidenced. Copyedited. DarkKnight214902:00, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
No judgment on the grammar, by the way. As someone who often uses a mobile phone and is frequently busy, I regularly go back and edit my own talk page comments for clarity. DarkKnight214902:06, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
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This user has just been blocked again for disruptive editing, and has still never engaged on Talk. Over 6,500 edits, of which exactly 5 are on talk pages despite a block for failure to WP:ENGAGE - and all of those are page moves not comments. I am wondering if this block should be upped to indef until the user starts communicating? Guy (help!) 10:26, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
This is the same MO as Kev519, a proven WP:SOCK. Their entire editing style is exactly the same. I support the indef block, and a SPI might be needed also, I just don't have enough support to open one. - Galatz גאליץשיחה Talk12:36, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
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I don't think we need yet another AN/I thread about minor issues on that article talk page caused by people sniping at each other. If this turns into actual disruption, then yes - but this is not what AN/I is for. Black Kite (talk)15:32, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
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User is accusing me for assuming bad faith and issued warning on my talk page. When asked then he gave blanket statement, not differences. But I think they are talking about this edit. Now, as per my simple understanding goes, this is not personal attack or not assuming good faith. I am in long conflict with editor. It will be better if someone will let user understand.--Harshil want to talk?14:30, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
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Greetings, I have been on an extended wiki-break, and got back to serious editing this past September.
I need some administrator intervention for NetJets. I have done some significant work to the article, updating citations and adding new info. Some of the new info that was added paints the organization in a negative light.
Yesterday, two anon-IP addresses deleted a large chunk of this info (see Special:Diff/927933910). A quick WHOIS and Geolocate report that both IP addresses are assigned to NetJets, which leads me to believe there is WP:COI and WP:PAID issues here. One of their comments was that a current discrimination case (which has two citations in the article) was pending investigation, so they removed it.
I have reverted all the changes from the IP addresses, however, I intend to disengage from editing this article until this matter is resolved (to avoid WP:3RR). KD5TVI (talk) 15:51, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
My understanding with stuff like this is that the standard practice is that the article just gets extra monitoring and patrolling for a few days (or until the disruption is over). Usually these things peter out in a short amount of time, but until and unless there's actual on-wiki disruption there's not much there can be done. (If that does happen, it's possible that the article might be semi-protected especially if there is a wave of IP or brand new accounts showing up to perpetrate coordinated disruption). Michepman (talk) 01:45, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
(edit conflict) @Nick Thorne: I'm not an admin, but have (also) taken a look, as your post rather piqued my curiosity. I suspect your post has helped to raise interest in a few of us now watching those pages, but I don't see any concerted attempt by hordes of new editors to change the various Spaghetti Monster-related pages. If a page comes under concerted attack by multiple editors (and there are 81,000+ 'followers' of that Facebook page) you can post a request at WP:RPP. Preemptively semi-protecting a page isn't something we do, so I think you're right in that there's nothing to do here. But at least, thanks to you, I've now found me a new 'religion' - or should I say 'parody religion' - to admire. Nick Moyes (talk) 02:04, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Good catch. I'm stunned that a user who has been a part of the community for 10 years would suddenly start vandalizing an article just because of a Facebook post. Michepman (talk) 02:06, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
They are both long term accounts, but neither of them has made any significant number of edits (<50 for one, and ~150 for the other). So, inexperienced, but still, tough to AGF when both of them obviously saw (and removed) the comments saying not to change the "satire" and "parody" terms. Meters (talk) 04:41, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
It is come to my knowledge that a person User:Störm is flooding AFD since long and few Administrators/Editors have warned him few times such as this User:FOARP. User is nominating almost all good articles which are notable. I can point few articles now and i can provide more information and articles. Few on his nomination no one has respond yet since 12 November because they are notable but his tags are still visible. He don't know urdu language and others then how come he is nominating AFD ? Wikipedia says articles must be notable so i can point you this article , you are almost welcome to Google it or read it in urdu language.
he has put AFD tag without even googling that there are enough references available and not even this , it has Dawnnews , bbc and voice of america reference too in urdu language but the thing is why he didn't googled before ? the english references are available so you can check.
I have added all the reference now
Now this page Kamal Mustafa (filmmaker) this page has 5 news references + 1 international newspaper of London. and 5 to 8 urdu newspapers references such as Daily nai baat , humsub , hamari web and urdu point one of the largest urdu blogs / newspapers.
this are only two wikipedia pages i have shared but there are many who he has nominated for AFD but they are all notable and even BBC is covering that. Kindly tell him not to flood the good and old wikipedia pages such as ustad ghulam mohammed khan and always Google first before nominating AFD any page because some references are in other languages except english.
Ustad Ghulam Mohammed Khan may have been a very famous musician, but currently in the article all five references are articles about other people with passing references to him which only prove he existed - we definitely need more than that. Also, this is the English Wikipedia - there is nothing wrong with Urdu sources, but equally you can't complain if someone sends an article to AfD, if they can't follow WP:BEFORE because the articles that prove notability are in a language they can't read. Black Kite (talk)12:39, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for your response , Dear Kite that five references is added by me to tell that there are reference available such as this which i will add now it is mentioning him and i am adding more references but the thing is there should be a rule that anybody who is nominating AFD must check news in all the languages such as English , hindi and urdu. i can pass 5 to 10 references mentioning him in hindi newspaper but the thing is it will be understandable by hindi editors. Thanks Memon KutianaWala (talk) 12:45, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
It is absolutely fine to add non-English sources to an article, but if you're nominating an article for AFD it is not reasonable to ask people to search for sources in any language - that's clearly not possible. Black Kite (talk)12:49, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
I understand but i am saying that anybody who is nominating AFD must google the reference first i have added more than six references and before there were no referenced added.
Can you provide evidence of the claim of “flooding”? I looked through a lot of their recent edits and they weren’t even AFD edits. Is he really “flooding AFD” or did he just nominate a couple articles you disagreed with and you decided to take him here? Sergecross73msg me13:07, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
I am not agreed or disagreed but i have seen few which were nominated AFD please read here
I have seen few more of his nomination which were actually not eligible for deletion but he has put the AFD. I want to mention that i am not against of anyone or him but i want to know why he has nominated those two articles for deletion ? Ustad Ghulam Mohammed Khan has references available instead of AFD he would have make the article better as Ustad Ghulam was one of the famous musician in pakistan and almost all urdu newspapers have articles on him.
Fatima Sohail I have seen many references in Google of Miss Fatima as she was working in Dunya News can someone check ? the article was created in 17 september 2019. @User:ReykUser:Sergecross73
User talk:Störm for this page Kamal Mustafa (filmmaker)i created many pages and including this because i see enough references and anybody can urdu understand it , but i agree you guys can speedy delete that page , but for Ustad Ghulam Mohammed Khani have added enough references there including Tribune , VOA (pashto) and other newspaper. almost 10 to 20 newspapers have mentioned ustad ghulam mohammed khan but you will not understand because of urdu language so i have added those who are mentioning them and atleast have him.
If you can understand Urdu i can pass out 5 to 10 newspaper references. Not every artist/musician or public figures comes in BBC , CNN and if they don't come in those it doesn't means they are not notable there are many other news outlet who are notables.
I take no position in whether these nominations were all good or bad, but the fact is that this person has been rapidfire creating AFD nominations without having anywhere near the amount of detail needed to back them up, and in several cases was creating second AFDs very quickly after a previous one failed. Michepman (talk) 02:31, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
These seem reasonable nominations of borderline notable firms in the same field. (I !voted weak keep on some, delete or redirect on others, but none of the nomination was absurd or disruptive). DGG ( talk ) 05:31, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
I ran into Toa at the Sharyl Attkisson page around 24 June 2019, and have been on the opposite side of him 100% (and would add here that admin Guy is also of an opposing view, in a dispute that has roughly equal numbers, as can be seen by this RfC). This is the only article we've worked on together. He has come after me at unrelated venues since then to weigh in against me, and is ramping up his WP:HOUNDING lately.
He showed up 15 minutes after me at the COI/N, 23 November, mischaracterizes my statement there, and mentions my topic ban as a reason I should be ignored.
He did the same at RS/N at another unrelated thread 16 October, where I was trying to address a serious BLP violation (the community unanimously agreed with me at this RfC), and tried to discredit me.
Per WP:HOUNDING "Even if the individual edits themselves are not disruptive per se, "following another user around", if done to cause distress, or if accompanied by tendentiousness, personal attacks, or other disruptive behavior, may become a very serious matter and could result in blocks and other editing restrictions."
I'm not sure how this is defensible behaviour. Please place a one-way I-ban on this user. I haven't got the time to dig up all of the interactions between us, this is a sampling, but I believe this meets any rationale definition of disruptive. I'm hoping non-involved admins will take a look at this. Thanks, petrarchan47คุก21:59, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
This request is so frivolous it is barely worth responding to. I have the COI noticeboard on my watchlist. I responded there because I noticed it on my watchlist. I noticed their contribution at conspiracy theories after she posted on my talk page and reverted it for clearly stated reasons (she removed a reliable source and replaced it with an op-Ed from a food critic for a men’s magazine).
Petrarchan seems to think any interaction with her is hounding, which is unfortunate but well within her pattern of casting aspersions on other editors. I would suggest this be disregarded and Petrarchan cautioned against both frivolous reports and aspersion casting. Also, while I appreciate the ping, a direct notification at my talk page is mandatory if I remember right. It’s been 20 minutes or so with no notification. ToaNidhiki0522:17, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
I'm sorry I forgot to ping, but please don't follow me around and try to discredit me at unrelated noticeboards, or overturn RS and re-add blogs, mischaracterizing it as you as are doing here. Bringing up my unrelated topic ban is disallowed. You have done it twice now (another time at Attkisson Talk). A one-way I-ban would stop this behviour, otherwise known as trolling, which is disallowed. I am not following you to any other pages. I am not out to disrupt your editing experience. I expect the same. petrarchan47คุก22:39, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
...but I believe this meets any rationale definition of disruptive A better example of "disruptive" might be frivolous attempts to block people who oppose your continual and failed attempts to get your way at Talk:Sharyl Attkisson, like you already tried
at the COI board.
WP:Hounding is not ok - per policy; it includes ...to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work. This is with an apparent aim of creating irritation, annoyance, or distress to the other editor. The heart of the dispute is a BLP which is governed by strict policies. There was a prior discussion at BLPN that addresses a very similar issue that has plagued the Attkisson BLP. In a nutshell, a BLP is not the place to debate or refute the science or theories - those debates belong in the respective articles about the science or theories. ”For a biography, it is enough to simply state what their views are and link to the articles which expand on those views...” It appears to me that Tao’s disagreement with Attkisson’s views are the crux of the problem, and what gave rise to his tendentious editing and hounding. AtsmeTalk📧13:14, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
”Tendentious editing” lol. No coincidence that two of the editors most supportive of scrubbing the Attkisson page of criticism of her anti-vaccine reporting are wanting me forced out. You have to be joking, and you certainly aren’t in any position to lecture given your history. ToaNidhiki0514:14, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
WP:Hounding is not ok. Sure. Nor is littering, tax fraud, advanced mopery, and taking the last slice of cake, and those as equally relevant here. Also irrelevant is the invention out of whole cloth of some sort of personal right of reply on Wikipedia and claiming this non-existent right is required by BLP policy.
I also have difficulty finding any sign of hounding. @Petrarchan47: you are such an experienced editor that I would have expected you to ping User:JzG when you refer to his opinion here on ANI (in the first line of your OP), especially since you don't make it very clear who he is of an opposing view to: you or Toa? Guy had better have an opportunity to clarify, if he cares to. There, I've pinged him for you. Bishonen | talk20:14, 26 November 2019 (UTC).
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Using edit summaries to make personal insults: [99] (Fuck off you daft prick.)
Apparently rejecting policies and guidelines if he doesn't agree with them: [100] (I don't care what MOS says...)
Closing talk page discussions that he is involved in, [101][102] despite {{atop}} saying that it should only be used by uninvolved editors or administrators.
Removing my comments from talk page discussions: [103](I see that the deleted comments were subsequently restored by Davey2010.)
Starting to follow me around Wikipedia in order to revert my edits [104] and implying that he plans to continue doing so: you don't get to carry this charade on other articles. (I have decided not to edit any articles in the meantime.)
(In due course, I shall raise an WP:RFC regarding the underlying issue of citation template syntax.[105] But the reason for this report is simply regarding the user's conduct.)
@DrFrench: UK date format is DMY, so why are you changing those articles to YMD or MDY? In effect, you have created your own problem with Davey2010, the way I see it, it is your mess to start with regardless of Davey's slightly toxic attitude. Govvy (talk) 13:07, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
@Govvy:I can see how that might appear to be the case. And if I had amended format of the dates from DMY as displayed in the text I would agree with you.Yes, the UK date format is DMY and the article text reflects that.
There is, however a clear difference between how the text is displayed and how it is formatted within citation templates. I explained to Davey2010, [106] the {{use dmy dates}} template ensures that dates are displayed in the chosen format. It's akin to whether you choose to use |access-date= or |accessdate= in a citation template. It should be non-controversial, as the displayed result is exactly the same. (WP:CS1 and MOS:DATEUNIFY explain in more detail.)
Date formats were not being changed on a personal whim. I was attempting to improve the citations in that article (67 in total) and standardising the date format was helping me to be accurate whilst editing and also ensuring I complied wth all the requirements of WP:MOS. But we're getting off-topic: that's a discussion for the RfC. --DrFrench (talk) 13:37, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
In relation to the content dispute, I fully support Davey and Cassianto's edits in relation to the date formats.
Davey, please continue to tell other editors what you damn well want, especially if it means dishing out a little bit of the truth. Ignore the sanctimonious nonsense people like Paul August are dishing out. You don't choose to give offence, others choose to take it. CassiantoTalk15:54, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
@Cassianto: So you don't think calling someone a "daft prick" ought to be considered offensive? Really? Whatever you may think, however, calling people "names" is offensive. And it serves no good purpose. Moreover it is against fundamental Wikipedia behavioral policy, and one can be blocked for it (see WP:NP). Paul August☎17:19, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
Hey Davey2010, I've lost count of how many times I've thought "Fuck off you daft prick" when looking at contributions here on Wikipedia. But the difference is, I've never actually said it. I think an apology for that comment would go some way towards settling this. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:51, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
Boing! said Zebedee I have a lot of respect for you and I do mean a lot of respect - You're a very reasonable guy firm but fair .....
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User:Gogreen needs a word re: why we're actually here.
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This is a new user, < a week old, whose only edits are of a WP:NOTFORUM nature. Most are to article talk space, including disquisitions upon two black nuns whom gave their vows also became pregnant when they went to Africa but let us have mercy on their souls alone for when they are in labor and giving birth god shall demand his obedience on labor, The mind is strong but the flesh is weak without the libelous reports the truth will some day prove we all have hairy legs and arm pits notwithstanding the Long term feminist movements from the Elizabethan writings of the bi, and Thanks to the encyclopedia reference to dogmatism by the Catholic church and it's partner in juxtopositional tormentors now.org think that their gods.including frances.genocide of feminists of usame2...on the talk page of Littlemore Priory scandals. As such, completely irrelevant. Gogreen has been warned about not using Wikipedia as a forum, but has continued to do so. Note edit summaries such as [107].Clearly they need a carefully- but simply-worded explanation, or other action, as to what it is we are doing here and that, currently, their editing is nowhere near expectations.Of course, if anyone else thinks it's odd for a "new" editor to find a relatively obscure noticeboard for their first edit, I couldn't possibly comment... ——SN5412916:13, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
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86.24.216.121(talk·contribs·WHOIS) is a SPA on the Danny Williams (footballer, born 1988) article, who makes (largely) correct updates to the playing stats (and I say largely because they have occasionally added matches not supported by sources). However, of more concern (and the subject of numerous messages, warnings, and a recent block) they repeatedly fail to update the date parameter, thereby actually creating false stats.
Why is this a problem? Let me put forward a simple hypothetical situation. As of 1 November 2019 John Smith had 15 appearances, and his infobox correctly reflect those facts. He then made a further appearance on 2 November 2019. That same day a well-meaning editor updated the number of appearances but not the date, so the infobox says he has 16 appearances as of 1 November 2019. That is not correct. Then another well-meaning editor comes along, sees the old date, and assumes the infobox has not been updated at all. They then update the games and the date - so his infobox says he has 17 appearances as of 2 November 2019. That is also not correct. The same thing then happens a week later, and a week later, and before you know it the stats are massively distorted.
This is therefore potentially a major problem, and something we see far too frequently on soccer player articles. I am therefore raising this here for further input/advice. GiantSnowman10:14, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
That definitely is a problem; an editor who repeatedly cannot/will not update such parameters should be blocked as being disruptive and/or CIR. Britishfinance (talk) 10:59, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
Multiple reverts and WP:TE on the same content by Snooganssnoogans in which Neutrality and Snooganssnoogans repeatedly revert content inserted by Rebecca jones (and later by me) over a couple of days. I noticed on my watchlist. Then Acroterion admonished Rebecca (and me) when I agreed that the edits did look like vandalism. I used the wrong term, instead it looks like WP:TE or WP:CIRCUS. Eventually El C locked the article.
Article subsequently locked 02:35, 12 November 2019 El C
Might be useful if this article had a 1RR, it has worked well for the blockchain space at WP:GS/Crypto. Also admins can review the behavior of the involved editors and give feedback (I welcome it as well).
Thanks!
Jtbobwaysf (talk) 03:31, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
I was thinking of applying 1RR to the article, may still do so once the protection expires. But, Jtbobwaysf, per WP:ONUS, why don't you wait for the RfC to conclude rather than edit war over the contested addition? El_C03:34, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
You and the single-purpose account Rebecca Jones are edit-warring new content into the lead of the article. Content that multiple editors on the talk page have objected to as inappropriate for the lead. After attempting to bully (3 reverts within 24 hrs) content contested by multiple editors into the lead (!) of the article and falsely accusing others of vandalism, you now drag me here? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 03:44, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
The OP doesn't have especially clean hands, and I've had to remind them and Rebecca Jones that disagreement isn't vandalism. I remind them again - don't cast aspersions to win an argument. Acroterion(talk)03:45, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
I support 1RR being applied to this article and the user Snooganssnoogans receiving a further warning. The track record of this account shows nothing but biased editing in order to further their own personal opinions and biases. Apeholder (talk) 03:51, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Look at the history of this page and their user talk page - when they have the amount of complaints they do - at what point does it go from an "aspersion" to a legitimate concern? Apeholder (talk) 04:00, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
I just reported Snoogansnoogans last week for gaming the system on reverts. They routinely do a 3RR and stop before going to 4RR, just as they have done on the article in question today. If, as their last edit summary revert says[118], that there are multiple editors that disagree with this edit, then why are they not letting those editors also do the reverts? I recommended last week Snooganssnoogans be placed on a 1RR for six months and ElC closed that and said I could take it to AN/I, etc. Well, here we are, once again, same story. The best part of this is that just before Snooganssnoogans did their last revert to 3RR, they warned another editor for edit warring on another page[119]. Oh and hey, this isn't some conspiracy theory of fake news...its all in the diffs. Snooganssnoogans may indeed be dealing with, as they claim, SPS's and or bullies (or bully--->to force something into an article, I suspect is the intended acrimonious insult) as they called me last week[120], but well, its okay I suspect if they engage in "aspersions", right?--MONGO (talk) 04:19, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
I just had another editor arrive on my talkpage to complain [122]. So far I've been chiefly concerned with the application of the "vandalism" epithet to disagreement as a means of gaining the upper hand. My review of editor behavior has thus far been confined to Julian Assange, where it's mostly bickering and some WP:RGW activity. Acroterion(talk)04:34, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Administrators aren't omniscient, and I've spent much of this evening dealing with puerile image vandalism rather than conducting wide-ranging reviews of editor conduct. Until now this thread was concerned only with behavior surrounding Julian Assange, where the scope is pretty narrow. Some of this might be best raised at AE, since some of these topics are under restriction. We have content disputes with folks running right up to three reverts. I'd suggest 1RR be applied to the articles at issue. But I'm signing off for the evening. Acroterion(talk)04:50, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Snooganssnoogans's edits (like mine) were perfectly proper; new and disputed content certainly cannot go in the lead section of a biography without a consensus for it, which is of course lacking here. That's what WP:ONUS is all about. Neutralitytalk04:36, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
By the way, the information that Assange was imprisoned in Belmarsh prison was added to the lead on 2 May, so it's hardly "new". I think it's useful, but it's certainly not worth edit-warring about. I think the major behavioural issue has been created by Rebecca jones who has been constantly edit-warring and labelling other edits as "vandalism". After she repetitively did that, I made a comment on the article's talk page on 22 September and on her talk page on 24 September. Yet she has continued to do it. Jtbobwaysf and others seem to be tacitly supporting or excusing her behaviour. I think this is a case of WP:Boomerang.--Jack Upland (talk) 05:02, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
No doubt some bad actions are happening all around really and ElC was correct to lock the pages down to prevent further edit warring. Is there proof others are engaging in 3RR games on multiple articles tirelessly week after week though?--MONGO (talk) 05:16, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
When one patrols hundreds (if not thousands) of controversial politics pages, one is bound to do a lot of reverting. Just in the last week, I spent time repeatedly removing content which I discovered was added by a COI PR account[123] and wasting time reverting and talking to what was obviously a yet-to-be-exposed-sockpuppet account[124]. Users such as yourself may have opted to turn a blind eye, hope that someone else will step in, and let these editors abuse the editing process. Others, such as myself, don't let editors bully bad content into articles, and sometimes part of that is doing lots of reverts (while also adhering to BRD). Snooganssnoogans (talk) 05:42, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
You were absolutely bullying content into that page. You failed to adhere to BRD by repeatedly edit-warring new content into the article. I started the talk page discussion, not you. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 05:56, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for calling my good faith edits "bullying". You routinely wait till you're at 3RR to start discussion. That image was added by another editor in good faith...you just didn't like it. But instead of taking out another image of lesser quality, you just revert warred till you reached 3RR.--MONGO (talk) 06:11, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
And Snoogans continuing to bully on these talk pages. Its these types of WP:OWNERSHIP focused editors that drive away other editors, especially when they are skilled and skirt to avoid violating the 3RR and the admins are too weak/afraid to sanction a clear pattern of violation. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 09:34, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Regarding WP:OWNERSHIP: The case you bring to us here is a case where you edit-warred new content into the lede of a BLP, despite vociferous objections from many other editors, and reverts from other editors. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 21:23, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Just to be clear: The disputed part of the lede (that Assange's life is at risk) was added in a series of edits by Rebecca Jones on November 1 (which are hidden due to copyright violations).[125] So it is new (and the source cited is from 1 November 2019). Snooganssnoogans (talk) 05:23, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
However, when you removed the disputed part on 8 November, you also removed the rest of the sentence, which had been there since May. And that was a little heavy-handed.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:08, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Yes, and just for clarification: I only removed that part (the long-standing content) once[126], and that was that time. So entirely consistent with BRD (not that you're accusing me of anything). Snooganssnoogans (talk) 07:25, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
I have not comment about this specific page but Snoogan's overall editing approach works against building consensus. I agree with those who feel their edits are POV pushing. Snoogan is very good at never actually crossing the line but spending a great deal of time way to near it. One problematic example is they are happy to get into long term edit war but too often don't go to the talk page to discuss the disagreements. That applies to the case Acroterion mentioned on their talk page. Some edits are inaccurate to the source and phrased as to make the article subject more distasteful than it might otherwise be. For example this edit where a correlation is referred to as causation [[127]] or this case where the editor ignored the objections of two other editors (one being an IP editor) [[128]]. Despite a back and forth that lasted over a month Snoogan didn't raise the question at the talk page. Snoogan's is very happy to make bad faith accusations against editors who disagree with Snoogan's edits such as here where I was accused of willfully ignoring a RfC that was in the talk page archive and occurred before I edited the page for the first time.[[129]] The long term pattern of behavior was noted by @Awilley: here [[130]]. In summary, I don't think any particular edit or action of Snoogan's crosses the line but there are many cases of poor edits that look like attempts to discredit or place "half truths" (factually correct but lacking in context or mitigating details), frequent edit warring (but great car to not step over the 3RR line), and rather than using the talk page as the first place to civilly solve disagreements, they only reluctantly go to the talk page. Once at the talk page the ideas of those who oppose are dismissed without due consideration and not infrequently with uncivil comments that either assume bad faith or fail to FOC. I have trouble believing Wikipedia as a whole is better for Snoogan's edits. As such I don't think Snoogan's actions here should be viewed as a generally good editor who just was edit warring. Instead this should be a problematic editor who has practiced avoiding the line while walking along it. Springee (talk) 05:33, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
This is an aggrieved editor who I have clashed with repeatedly and who generally has a POV contrary to mine. In my last encounter with this editor, Springee was removing text agreed upon in a RfC on the Wall Street Journal page (I created the RfC because I do actually build consensus) about the editorial board's promotion of fringe science, including a citation to the most prominent academic book on the climate change denial movement. Despite having never read the book and despite having been pointed to the RfC, this editor repeatedly removed citations to the book, falsely claiming that the book (which he had not read) did not support the text.[131] After pointing this editor to direct quotes from the book that supported the text, the editor moved the goalposts and kept arguing against inclusion of the book. This is a good example of why editing in American politics is so dysfunctional and why it's fraught with conflicts: failure to stick with a RfC, dismissal of the best sources, and constant shifting of goalposts. The example also highlights the difference between me and others in terms of building consensus: I started a RfC to settle the content dispute in the first place... Springee violated the consensus reached in the RfC, refused to start a RfC of his own, yet kept edit-warring his preferred changes into the article. Springee, Mongo and these other editors are holding me to a standard that none of these editors adhere themselves to. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 05:53, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
There is a long line of aggrieved editors with whom Snoog has edit warred.
Edit warring warnings on Snoog's talk page in last two weeks: 1, 2, 3, 4.
WP:ANEW filings in last few months: September: No violation because didn't breach 3RR; October: No violation because didn't breach 3RR; November: Report declined. quote El C: "I'm sorry, but this just isn't the venue to address these sort of potential problems. Such a venue would be AN/I, where, for example, such specialized sanctions as a six month 1RR restriction, and so on, can be proposed and implemented." [emphasis added]
I stand corrected. (Although I still don't understand, when we're talking about multiple DS areas [BLP and AP2], why a report to ANEW can't result in admin action without a 4RR. This 4RR requirement at ANEW seems prone to gaming, as seen here.) – Levivich06:18, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Levivich, if I had seen the edits at Great Leap Forward I would have blocked that IP that you claim Snoogans was edit-warring with. Removal of academic publications with a BS edit summary is vandalism (the book was published by Routledge, for crying out loud), so if there was ever a case to call for an exemption to EW, this is it: they were reverting some blatant vandalism. And if you had looked at the IP's other contributions, you would have seen they obviously have a bone to pick with the author of that book, and those edits combined with the BLP violations in the edit summaries (Acroterion, are they worth revdeleting?) are enough cause for a block. So thanks, Snooganssnoogans, for reverting that. Drmies (talk) 03:04, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
I strongly disagree. Patrolling controversial topics means one will inevitably be involved in content disputes. The fact that Snooganssnoogans hasn't violated 3RR here is instructive - being repeatedly and tendentiously hauled into 3RRNB and having those reports declined because they expressly were not violating policy is not remotely a reason to impose sanctions. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:14, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Those diffs are not examples of a "content dispute". They are examples of edit warring. There's a big difference. Content disputes happen on talk pages, not with the undo button. – Levivich06:16, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Your proposed example of Snooganssnoogans' wrongdoing, Killing of Mollie Tibbetts, is in fact an instructive example of the good work that they are doing. One of the editors they reverted, 88Dragons, was expressly a sockpuppet of a banned user; another, GlassBones, is a single-purpose account who has self-admitted that they are here to push a right-wing POV - they said on Talk:Hunter Biden that It should be obvious that the editors of Wikipedia are overwhelmingly liberal and will do nearly anything to protect the left-wing bias in all articles about political figures. These are problematic users, and reverting problematic edits by problematic users is the opposite of undesirable behavior. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:18, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Dear NorthBySouthBaranof (talk): Contrary to your fallacious statement, I did not self-admit on the Hunter Biden talk page that I edit Wikipedia to push a right wing point of view. What I take issue with is those editors who edit Wikipedia with a bias, in most cases a strong liberal bias, rather than editing from a neutral point of view. There should be no bias, liberal or conservative, in Wikipedia articles about political figures, but sadly that is not the case. The language of the Hunter Biden article, and the statements made on the Talk page by numerous editors, bear this out. GlassBones (talk) 02:03, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Please don't do that bullshit thing where you cherry-pick one example out of several dozen and then argue that it's "instructive". I already labelled that as one of the "lesser examples". Don't pretend there isn't a problem here. – Levivich06:20, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
I picked literally one article at random to investigate; I could go through each and every one of your examples and probably find many of the same patterns. There isn't a problem here. Well, actually, there is a problem - there is a problem with right-wing POV-pushing on the encyclopedia often involving defamatory claims and unreliable sources. In fact, here's another example: their reverts on Jack Posobiec involve removing clear attempts at whitewashing a fringe far-right conspiracy theorist involved in promoting the Pizzagate nonsense. The edit they reverted instead described Posobiec as a journalist and reduced the reliably-sourced factual descriptions of him to "characterized by critics and political opponents." NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:25, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Just wow. So you're upset that in wiki-voice we couldn't outright call this person a "fringe far-right conspiracy theorist" and instead had to attribute it to critics?--MONGO (talk) 06:35, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
You do realize that we go with what reliable sources say, right? Reliable sources factually describe him as such — it's not merely what "critics and political opponents" say. Unless you're going to argue that everything cited in the lede from ABC News to the Columbia Journalism Review, The New York Times, and Philadelphia are "critics and political opponents." If that's your argument, you're on the wrong encyclopedia project. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:40, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
In the diff you showed...here seems the removal of those very same sources was done by Snooganssnoogans. He restored the link to pizzagate which is fine, but why remove the other reliable sourced things? Is the effort to merely malign the BLP? Please don't tell me I am on the wrong encyclopedia project.--MONGO (talk) 06:51, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
There's a decent argument that the sources referenced are either passing mentions or cytogenetic. Anyone who supports that sort of sourcing is definitely on the wrong encyclopedia project. - Ryk72talk07:19, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
In an article that is geared towards maligning and being a borderline BLP and NPOV wasteland, a few balancing positives for the sake of human decency are of course unacceptable. Apparently reliable sources are only reliable for the portions of information that support the predetermined biases, right?--MONGO (talk) 07:34, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Sure. Let's look at Julian Assange - where Snooganssnoogans appropriately removed disputed material from the article lede (which had previously been removed by Neutrality) and directed the user to the talk page. Jtbobwaysf's attempts to force disputed material into the lede by edit-warring, despite multiple objections, in contravention of the BRD cycle, is what's actually objectionable here. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 06:35, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Why am I going to bother responding to each when this is the weak sauce you bring? I literally couldn't even remember editing the Great Leap Forward, yet for you this is yet another example of problematic behavior... so what is it? Oh, it's where I am restoring a peer-reviewed book by one of the leading scholars on genocide when two new accounts were ludicrously claiming this scholar was not an expert on the topic just so that they could whitewash the page.[132][133] I should be rewarded for this kind of editing - it says more about you than me that you consider these to be horrible edits. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 06:30, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
(ec) It's so telling that one of the examples cited here is me removing text added by a sockuppet account with a neo-nazi-ish account name[134] who added nonsense on the Killing of Mollie Tibbetts. It's almost as if a prolific and highly active editor who patrols controversial politics pages will end up doing a lot of reverts. I'm so sad for you Levivich that this neonazi sockpuppet didn't start a spurious edit-warring noticeboard discussion so that you could lump it in there with the other spurious complaints by aggrieved editors who were not given carte blanche to force BS into Wikipedia articles in contravention to WP:BRD. I have a list of complaints against me listed on my userpage, many from fringe folks on internet forums... seeing as how you're throwing spaghetti on the wall, to see what sticks, feel free to add those to your list of complaints against me. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 06:21, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
(ec) I also have a history with Levivich. Every time someone a brings a complaint against me, no matter how meritless and weak, this editor must enter the fray calling for sanctions on me. Levivich has been on my case ever since he sought to scrub RS content from 2018 United States elections (because he personally disagreed with what the RS were saying), and the dysfunction went so far that he even brazenly removed content[135] shortly after it was approved in a RfC (started by me - because I do build consensus).[136] Ever since, he's been in every discussion where someone raises a complaint about me to argue on behalf of the filer of the meritless complaints (when those filers are inevitably boomeranged) and/or saying I'm a huge problem that needs to be dealt with. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 06:21, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Definition of edit warring: "Edit warring is a behavior, typically exemplified by the use of repeated edits to "win" a content dispute. It is different than a bold, revert, discuss (BRD) cycle. Reverting vandalism and banned users is not edit warring; at the same time, content disputes, even egregious point of view edits and other good-faith changes do not constitute vandalism. Administrators often must make a judgment call to identify edit warring when cooling disputes. Administrators currently use several measures to determine if a user is edit warring".--MONGO (talk) 06:24, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
For clarification allow me to emphasize the wording "...content disputes, even egregious point of view edits and other good-faith changes...". Yet you label such things as "bullying"...--MONGO (talk) 06:27, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
As can be seen from the riveting conversation above, Snoog & Friends will inevitably argue that because Snoog was right on the content, therefore his edit warring was justified–laudable, in fact. This will continue so long as the community allows it. Put me down for supporting a 1RR restriction, of course. – Levivich06:39, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
I second this. Snoogans has often engaged in edit warring, and whether or not he has engaged in constructive editing, it's at least clear to me that he engages far more in unconstructive, uncivil reverting. He's engaged in personal attacks and he reverts without discussion: as one user said before, there's a history of Snoogans discussing content disputes. While some may beg to differ, the countless reports filed against him, regardless of outcome, combined with this particular incident thread packed with activity, show that there's definitely a problem. I've tried to discuss content disputes with him, but for someone who points out failures to engage in BRD, he sure doesn't like to talk about said disputes like an adult. Snoogans says that these reports are "meritless," but then again, look who likes to edit-war, make meritless reverts, use hypocritical logic and move the goalposts. --MrThunderbolt1000T (talk) 07:06, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
For context, this is an editor whose unproductive edits I've reverted on Brian Kemp (a few weeks ago) and Concealed carry in the United States (earlier today). Earlier,[137] this editor falsely accused me of stalking him to those pages (despite the fact that I'm a regular editor on both and precede him on both), and then doubled down on the false claim when I pointed out the error[138]. The editor only knows me from those two disputes (and yet can't even get them right), and is still here talking about my history as if he's intimately familiar with it. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 07:20, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
That's laughable. First off, there's your contributions, with an extensive list of all the times you've engaged in edit-warring and content disputes. You're the one who thinks an NAS review is infallible and that all other studies are fallible. Your reverts are typically unconstructive and your lack of logic regarding academic qualification equally so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MrThunderbolt1000T (talk • contribs) 08:05, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
This, right here. Snoogans is out of control and he needs to be held accountable for all of the ridiculous, malicious things he does. There's insurmountable evidence. If nothing is done about this, then I'd seriously have to question Wikipedia, its stated intent and everything else. Snoogans is clearly out of line and nothing has been done, but something has to be done. --MrThunderbolt1000T (talk) 08:13, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
"Unhinged rant" was in response to the most random unhinged rant accusing me of being in favor of the dictatorial regimes in Saudi Arabia and Jordan.[140] I was not aware that "shit" as a description of a source was prohibited here. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 08:19, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Here's a few more from the Tucker Carlson article - 1, 2, 3, and then 1, 2, 3, 4. In general this is a big part of Snoogans editing style. I would support a 1RR or a topic ban from AMPOL2, but since that is nearly exclusively where they edit it would be a soft site ban, so would prefer something less drastic. Mr Ernie (talk) 13:34, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
I'm another "aggrieved" editor, though I'm not a "right-wing" editor. I also had an experience with Snooganssnoogans repeatedly going right up to the 3RR line, but not crossing it (as far as I recall). For those editors arguing that Snooganssnoogans is being attacked by "right-wing" editors, note that in this case, Snoogans was actually pushing what is generally regarded as a right-wing view: arguing that high Iraqi casualty estimates in the Iraq War had been discredited. Starting in October 2017, Snoogans began aggressively "bullying" (to use Snoogans' phrase) through large-scale changes to Casualties of the Iraq War ([141][142][143]). These changes were controversial, among other things because they implicitly labeled the most widely cited studies on Iraq War Casualties as not "credible." I and a number of other editors objected, reverting some of Snoogans' changes. There were also a couple of editors who broadly supported Snoogans' changes. However, Snoogans did not obey WP:BRD, but instead repeatedly went right up to the 3RR line. Because of the unwillingness of other editors to match Snoogans revert-for-revert, Snoogans' changes remained in the article for nearly two years, without there ever being a consensus on the talk page for the large-scale changes Snoogans had made. To give one example, over the course of 5 days (9-14 July 2018), Snoogans reverted the article 11 times ([144][145][146][147][148][149][150][151][152][153][154]), undoing the edits of four different editors (myself included). During this spree of revert-warring, Snoogans also took the time to make further significant changes to the article along largely the same controversial lines ([155]), which Snoogans must have known the other four editors would object to. This is not what WP:BRD looks like.
Finally, after a DRN that went nowhere ([156]), I proposed changes to the lede on the talk page, and pinged all involved editors, including Snoogans. Two other editors, including one who had previously supported Snoogans' edits, agreed to the updated lede. I waited for three days, during which time Snoogans did not comment: [157]. I then updated the lede, as discussed on the talk page: [158]. Exactly 20 minutes later, Snoogans reverted my edit: [159]. Just to recap, Snoogans did not respond for three days to my ping, while the only other editor who had supported Snoogans agreed to the updated lede. The moment I changed the lede, though, Snoogans swooped in to revert. I asked Snoogans to self-revert ([160]), but they ignored that request, instead demanding an RfC - essentially, Snoogans was asserting the right to revert endlessly until an RfC overruled them. Snoogans' excuse for not engaging in the talk page, but instead reverting against the consensus of the other three active editors, was that "I cannot spend the rest of my life dealing with this BS" ([161]). Now, having an RfC is fine, but asserting one's sole right to control an article against all other editors until an RfC is held is not right. We finally had the RfC, and something very close to my proposed lede was accepted.
It seems that I'm not the only person who's had this sort of experience with Snooganssnoogans. Maybe this is all a right-wing conspiracy to get Snoogans, but I'm not right-wing, and in the case I describe above, Snoogans was the one arguing the right-wing position. -Thucydides411 (talk) 17:36, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
I did say "the occasional far-left editor", which you are. Your recollection of the editing on the Casualities of the Iraq War page is a complete mess, and involves multiple editors supporting and opposing various versions of content over the span of a year or more. In your case, you were removing any and all peer-reviewed research from the body which called into question an inflated estimate of the number of casualties in the Iraq War (a left-wing talking point is to exaggerate the casualties of the war). Removing peer-reviewed research is not a uniquely right-wing thing to do. As I said, the occasional far-left editor sometimes does it. Besides scrubbing peer-reviewed research on that page, I primarily know this user as one who scrubs RS content on the Julian Assange, Wikileaks and Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections... because on the far-left (just like the far-right), Russia apparently did not intervene in the 2016 election. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 19:15, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Anyone can go check the talk page of Casualties of the Iraq War and see that your claim about me ignoring peer-reviewed research is a bald-faced lie. I actually did a thorough literature review ([162][163]), in response to your cherry-picking of papers by one particular author. The issue is not who was right or wrong on the content question, however (although I'll note that the RfC you demanded as a condition of ending your revert-war found in my favor). The issue is that you repeatedly violated BRD and tried to revert-war your edits through, regardless of how many other editors disagreed with your edits. Ultimately, nobody was willing to revert as much as you (in the example I gave above - and there are others - you carried out 11 reverts against four editors in less than 5 days on that one article). That is not an acceptable way to edit. -Thucydides411 (talk) 19:47, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
This appears to be a rather intractable debate, with slightly more support for the proposed limitation than against it, but not the clear consensus required to impose an editing restriction. Snooganssnoogans is hereby warned to take care to avoid the appearance of either edit warning or asserting page ownership, and strongly advised to initiate a talk page discussion pursuant to the removal or reversion of any material appearing to have been placed in an article in good faith. BD2412T02:21, 24 January 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
A pattern of edit warring has been shown as well as a disregard for the views/concerns of other editors. Snoogans feels that they are making good edit and when they go to the talk page they are able to persuade or use RfCs to correct problems with articles. A 1RR limit doesn't prevent their making article changes nor does it prevent consensus building. However, it does prevent the pattern of reverting others without trying to discuss or build consensus. This should result in a minimal impact to good article changes and reduce the number of edit warring complaints. Springee (talk) 13:43, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Meh. Snoogs is the textbook example of being right in the wrong way. I'd like to hope we can find something other than cudgels to fix this. Guy (help!) 13:59, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Support I think everyone who edits American politics has experienced Snoog's edit-warring or battleground behavior. This is a consistent problem. Just look at the above diffs. Red Rock Canyon (talk) 15:00, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
The notion that 1RR would have a minimal impact on patrolling is absurd. As someone who patrols hundreds (if not thousands) of controversial American politics pages (which are rife with bad edits), it would force me to dedicate countless hours to starting talk page discussions and keeping tabs of dozens of on-going disputes without any effective way of ensuring a stable status quo version of the article... it would make it effectively impossible to patrol pages (many of which do not have other active veteran editors on them), because I cannot start a talk page discussion every time a neonazi sockpuppet adds anti-immigrant propaganda to a page (literally one of the examples of 'problematic behavior' cited against me by Levivich who has spent almost a year gathering data on me due to his vendetta against me, yet these are the examples he brings to the table)... the consequence would be to allow editors (whether they are new acounts, blatant COI accounts or regular editors who edit in a problematic way) to abuse the editing process and let bad content slide into countless articles. Three of the voters above, Springee, Mongo and Levivich have a history of edit-warring new content into articles (in violation of WP:BRD), and with me removing that content (in two cases they edit-warred changes which violated a consensus reached in a RfC[[164]][165][166][167]). Mr Ernie and Red Rock Canyon have a right-wing POV. The goal is purely to prevent one of the most active and prolific patrollers in their topic area from being able to prevent them and like-minded editors from bullying bad new changes into articles. The standards that they hold me to are standards that they themselves do not adhere to in the slightest. You would for instance never in your wildest dreams see me, a supposedly horrific edit-warrior, violate a RfC consensus, yet that is precisely what the proposer has done (and being the good editor I am I had to revert him when he did that[168][169]... 1RR would have stopped me from doing that, which is what this editor wants). Snooganssnoogans (talk) 15:43, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
You're responsible for this. If you didn't engage in edit-warring, battleground behavior, lying and the like, this wouldn't be an issue. Because you act like American politics is your courtroom to preside over, this is why all of us are here. Why don't you become a constructive editor and stop accusing people of right-wing POV for disagreeing with your reverts? You engaged in an edit-war with me and several other users, even engaging in a personal attack because you can't accept a lede representing a body accurately. This is ridiculous. If you want to patrol American political articles, then stop being an edit warrior, a hypocrite, and a liar. Don't complain if your refusal to be civil and reasonable gets you impeded from patrolling. Everybody here has seen your battleground behavior and your edit-warring. I was 100% willing to have a civil conversation on the matter, and gave you ample time to respond, but just like you always do, your first instinct is to revert. It looks like to just about everyone here that you can't take being wrong. --MrThunderbolt1000T (talk) 18:07, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
I was actually with you up until you started casting the aspersions. But the problem is that you are the one bullying bad new changes into articles. Take the Bill Barr page for example. Two sections you edit warred to include, the secularists blurb and the Trump hotel party blurb, do not have consensus as encyclopedic topics. That's the problem. You have a different view of what should be in articles, and one that I don't think conforms with NOTNEWS and DUE. You also edit war to include such changes, as is widely demonstrated in the diffs above. The 1RR restriction is an attempt to stop that. Mr Ernie (talk) 15:53, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Just one thing I want to clarify: I didn't spend a year gathering data on Snoog. That would be weird stalkerish-type behavior on my part. The diffs I posted here I gathered in about 20 minutes yesterday, by going back through Snoog's mainspace contribs to October 30 (two weeks). It's really easy to do: click on his contribs, filter by mainspace namespace only, and look for the repeated "undos" (the +/- bytes changed is a dead giveaway). I have done this before–IIRC in another ANI thread about six months ago, and that one was a deeper dive (I went back more than two weeks). But I have no idea what "the worst" examples of Snoog's editing are; I only can say that there are lots of recent examples of edit warring and, specifically, gaming 3RR. – Levivich16:43, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
This is yet another editor who sought to bully bad changes into an article with a right-wing POV. On the William Barr page, which is covered by 1RR and consensus-required (to restore challenged edits), this editor edit-warred contested content back into the article, which I reverted[170][171]. I did not file an edit-warring case against the editor (despite the blatant violation of consensus-required) nor did I revert him again. When I informed the editor that he should seek a consensus, the editor threatened to edit-war again, demonstrating the kind of attitude in which he approaches editing with[172]. Again, these editors (most of whom have right-wing POVs) do not in the slightest follow the standards that they apply to me. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 16:46, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
You're leaving out a very important fact. These so-called "bad changes" were overwhelmingly supported by uninvolved editors when I opened up an RfC, which closed in favor of the changes that you tried to edit-war out of the article. You have a very hostile attitude and many of the editors here have said the same. Your stalwart refusal to recognize this is a cause for concern. May His Shadow Fall Upon You ● 📧19:34, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
The RfC did not conclude in favor of the text that you edit-warred into the article (a misleading snippet)[173][174], but a different NPOV version of the text (a full quote which made it clear what the context was)[175]. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 19:53, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Oppose I’ve had conflicts with Snog before in the past but his work combatting quackery and politics agenda editing in general is solid. He was one of the major people, along with myself and others, that uncovered a sockpuppet ring on Center for Immigration Studies. He should be more careful but this is excessive. ToaNidhiki0517:30, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
My editing on Center for Immigration Studies is an instructive example of the great lengths I go to to achieve consensus and to engage in discussion even when the opposing editors are obviously not making good edits and are obviously not operating in good faith. I spent upwards to two years (!) combating what was ultimately revealed to be a nest of 5-10 sockpuppets, and wasting dozens (maybe hundreds) of hours meticulously dealing with their concerns, starting RfCs, looking up the sources that they were bringing to the table (and usually always misrepresenting them), and of course also doing a lot of reverting. For most of those two years, it was up to me alone to deal with those editors. If 1RR had been in effect for me, then I would not have been able to deal with that nest of sockpuppets, and those editors would (1) have been able to insert and keep their awful content in the article and (2) would likely not have been exposed as sockpuppets. My user talk page is also full of complaints from these very same sockpuppets, which Levivich might take as evidence of what a horrible editor I am (because adding ten spurious complaints together must somehow equate one legitimate complaint, am I right?). If anyone wants to understand what editing on controversial Am Politics is like (and why reverting is often necessary), please read the Center for Immigration Studies archives, starting perhaps here[179]. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 17:42, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
I would argue the details of Snoogan's accusations against me, especially the false claim that I was reverting against the outcome of a RfC that I was aware of, but I think the above kind of drives home the point. No one is opposed to Snoogan reverting actual socks/vandalism. It's when they POV push and refuse to engage in discussion with experienced editors that things become a problem. It's worth noting that Snoogan's account has a TBAN related to spamming the material into a large number of pages at once.[[180]] In that case it was clear the material Snoog was adding was not just to patrol. The edits were seen as often POV pushing. Snoog is getting a pass on their bad behavior because they also do some good. In that case the remedy was narrow to try to lance the boil while saving the rest of the body. I think this 1RR is similar. If the edits are good, make the case and others will defend them. If they aren't and others disagree we avoid edit wars. Anything that encourages discussion vs reversion is likely a good thing. Springee (talk) 19:31, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
"If the edits are good, make the case and others will defend them. If they aren't and others disagree we avoid edit wars. Anything that encourages discussion vs reversion is likely a good thing." This is coming from an editor who was edit-warring changes to content approved in a RfC literally days ago. I can't get over how brazen it is that the filer in this case is the same person who days ago literally edit-warred out consensus text, only for me and other editors having to revert it back to the consensus version (incredibly, this is also one of the examples that Levivich cites as part of my "problematic behavior": me restoring content approved in a RfC)[181][182][183][184][185]. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 20:03, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
In those last three reverts in that string of five, you're putting a single cite into the lead. "Should we include this cite in the lead?" is an easy enough question to pose on the talk page. But by your own admission (above), you don't want to take the time to engage in content disputes the right way: As someone who patrols hundreds (if not thousands) of controversial American politics pages (which are rife with bad edits), it would force me to dedicate countless hours to starting talk page discussions and keeping tabs of dozens of on-going disputes without any effective way of ensuring a stable status quo version of the article... it would make it effectively impossible to patrol pages (many of which do not have other active veteran editors on them), because I cannot start a talk page discussion every time a neonazi sockpuppet adds anti-immigrant propaganda to a page [...] the consequence would be to allow editors (whether they are new acounts, blatant COI accounts or regular editors who edit in a problematic way) to abuse the editing process and let bad content slide into countless articles. The answer might be in patrolling fewer pages, because you're right: content disputes take time to resolve. You can't "patrol" the entire AP2 topic area. – Levivich20:29, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
There's literally a weeks-old fresh RfC about the inclusion of the text and the cite. How many RfCs am I supposed to start about the same content? This is what I'm talking about when I'm saying that standards are being applied to me that none of these editors come close to adhering to: I start a RfC to resolve a content dispute, spend hours putting together a solid RfC with appropriate sourcing (academic books and articles), the content gets approved by consensus in the RfC, and then when a "good" veteran editor such as Springee decides to brazenly revert the RfC consensus on multiple occasions[186][187][188][189][190], I am suddenly supposed to start a new RfC? Also, I remind you that this is not some random editor I'm talking about: the editor who is proposing 1RR on me right here right now is the same user who just days ago brazenly violated a RfC consensus on multiple occasions. The shamelessness is absolutely stunning.Snooganssnoogans (talk) 21:16, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
(1) the RfC was almost six months ago, not "weeks-old fresh"; (2) the RfC language was "fringe", not "pseudoscientific"; (3) the RfC wasn't about whether it needed a citation, or that particular citation; and (4) what you're supposed to do is discuss it at the talk page and not revert. Even if–and I want to make this next part absolutely clear–even if you're right about the content. – Levivich22:03, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Why are you so reluctant to actually describe Springee's brazen and blatant edit-warring as edit-warring while you at the same time lambast me for restoring the RfC consensus text? I can't emphasize this point enough: the standards that are being applied to me are standards that none of these other editors come close to adhering to themselves. I'm supposed to seek and build consensus (through for example crafting RfCs), yet they have anointed themselves the powers to literally revert RfC consensus text. As for the specifics: (1) The RfC was concluded in June. (2) Pseudoscientific and fringe are the same thing, in particular in this context (and this semantic difference was not cited as a reason behind the reverts). (3) The RfC question included the citation and the discussion shows multiple editors referencing the book in support of the content. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 22:28, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Everyone you edit war with is also edit warring with you. Obvi. What sets you apart IMO are two things: (1) you edit war way more than anyone else I've yet seen–with 9 editors on 7 articles in the last two weeks, and more if you include the more-justifiable "lesser examples"–and (2) you steadfastly refuse to change, even a little bit. I can't get an "OK, I'll cool it" out of you (so far). Sanctions are a last resort, and "please don't edit war so much with so many other damn editors" is not really a big ask. – Levivich02:52, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
I can certainly start more talk page discussions and do so earlier (and I certainly intend to do so). If you're wondering why I do not do that more often, the reason is that it's a huge time sink and every creation of a talk page discussion jointly with a revert will inevitably cut down on the amount of patrolling that can be done and the cost is simply more bad edits slipping into the encyclopedia. And it's not as if I don't start talk page discussions: This encyclopedia is littered with talk pages that contain one comment by me where I explain why I reverted content without a response in sight (these lonely comments by me fulfill a bureaucratic check mark but are in all actuality a complete waste of time). 90% of the edits I revert once or twice are just ridiculously bad edits that don't belong on the encyclopedia, and would never stand the scrutiny of a RfC (see the edit that set off this noticeboard discussion, as well as Springee's brazen and repeated removals of RfC consensus text) - having to start a talk page discussion for each one (as opposed to putting that duty on the editor who is edit-warring new content into an article) would in most cases just appear to serve the sole purpose of filling some bureaucratic check mark. Waiting on an another editor to revert the bad edit (which is often not a realistic thing to expect on poorly patrolled pages) again adds a headache, because that means I have to observe a ludicrously bad edit, let it slide for a day or more, register the edit in question with me in some way, and then come back days later to revert it. The sole effects would be to make patrolling a way more time-consuming endeavor, make it easier for bad content to get in, and let bad content sit and fester in an article for days. However, I certainly do intend to start more talk page discussions, let other editors revert bad edits instead of always instantly reverting bad edits when I see them (for example, I'm sure a dozen different editors would have ultimately reverted the edit that set off this noticeboard and reverted Springee's removal of RfC consensus text), and register edits with me which I check up on days later. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 03:39, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Support Snoogans has engaged in recurrent edit-warring, personal attacks and battleground behavior. Snoogans usually refuses to engage in civil conversation regarding content disputes, this being Snoogans's talk page, where my message (Concealed carry in the United States) went unanswered by him for days, and he engages in personal attacks, as cited by Pudeo above, and he engaged in a personal attack against Apeholder on Apeholder's talk page. Many diffs and other evidence have been cited as to his edit-warring, battleground behavior and lying. As Levivich pointed out, Snoogans has been edit-warring and engaging in battleground behavior against some of Wikipedia's more experienced, dedicated and knowledgeable editors, disrupting the goals of Wikipedia. Snoogans is clearly acting contrary to the guidelines and just being a pain to anyone that has a different opinion. No amount of service to Wikipedia, whether true or false in its existence, justifies or excuses this behavior. I'm 100% in favor of 1RR. I would have no issue if Snoogans breached 3RR to combat vandals and trolls as he claims, but the facts show that he breaches 3RR regularly to win content disputes and to assert battleground behavior. --MrThunderbolt1000T (talk) 18:32, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Support - I didn't read any part of this thread; I saw a proposal to implement 1RR and that's a yes from me. 1RR should be our standard everywhere, but here's as good a place as any to start. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 20:05, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
I've struck this - thanks to a kind email from Doug Weller I realize that the section header is not reflective of the discussion as I interpreted it. I do support applying 1RR everywhere, but that's not what this proposal is. In retrospect it was a silly thing for me to have commented on it in the first place; consider me neutral. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 01:46, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Support 1RR for Snooganssnoogans for continued pattern of disruptive behavior, WP:TE, and clear evidence of WP:BATTLE here [191]. Even Snooganssnoogans recent comment on this very ANI page (below) [192] evidence the continuing WP:1AM issues. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 20:31, 12 November 2019 (Utc)
Comment leaning toward oppose but am confused by the. Claim of regular breaches of 3rr. You breach 3rr regularly, you get blocked frequently. I see no blocks for edit warring. What I think I do see is a political conflict being carried out by some although not all editors here. Not surprising I guess given the area. And a subject heading that looks like it's for a restriction for a topic area or at least thought to be one by at least one editor. Doug Wellertalk22:18, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Doug, 3RR is not an entitlement and you know that. Playing the game of revert warring repeatedly to that threshold is a form of gaming the system. My original thought was a site wide 1RR restriction for six months. Seems this mess will likely end up in arbcom court since this is a multifaceted behavioral situation.--MONGO (talk) 23:52, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Oppose after further consideration and examination, especially per Aquillion and Johnuniq. I'm asking User:Snooganssnoogans to be especially careful about edit summaries in the future - taking it down a notch should avoid another long discussion like this one. Doug Wellertalk06:17, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Oppose the behaviour is pretty hostile, but there is always another editor in disputes who should hopefully recognize and stop it with a conversation. I just can’t see how this arbitrary lower limit helps. Kingsif (talk) 22:33, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
Support 1RR on AP2; (would also support a topic ban on AP2). Per the above diffs; which are a representative sample, not an exhaustive list. - Ryk72talk01:10, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Oppose as written. While Snooganssnoogans does need to tone it down, this is part of a larger problem in the AP2 topic area; many of his disputes are with the same group of people (who often lack clean hands themselves when it comes to revert-warring and WP:BATTLEGROUND conduct), many involve edits that ignore a consensus on the talk page, and so on. Certainly WP:3RR is not an entitlement, but it's a red-line rule because that makes it simple to enforce in complex situations; despite what some people say above, in situations that go beyond that easily-defined red line, the context does matter. Where there is extensive problematic editing on all sides, the appropriate thing to do is to go to WP:RFAR so the conduct of everyone involved can be considered in that context, rather than having everyone he's in dispute with line up to demand one-sided restrictions with no deeper analysis. --Aquillion (talk) 01:31, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Oppose I agree with "reverting problematic edits by problematic users is the opposite of undesirable behavior" by NorthBySouthBaranof above. Simplistic lists of reverts (which don't violate 3RR) are not evidence of anything other than the obvious: AP is a highly contested area where a lot of reverts occur. Johnuniq (talk) 01:54, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Support 1RR in AP2. This has been getting worse (or at best not improving) since 2016.. Better late than never taking action. It should be accompanied with a no personal comments sanction because of their long-standing habit of casting aspersions. 🌿 SashiRolls t · c02:01, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Oppose: Now, I've read through this, and I originally wanted to comment earlier, but I went away from my keyboard and got distracted. Anyway, Aquillion has phrased his objection far better than I could, and I would like to echo it: Snooganssnoogans does need to take it down a notch or two, but I fail to see this as the proper solution absent a deeper analysis. — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤)03:04, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Support 1RR in AP2 Given their long history of edit warring and battle ground behavior something needs to be done. I do not agree with the bad people on all sides argument given that Snoog is so prolific at running up to 3RR each time. Followed up by lets call it aggressive pursuit of their personal goals. I also fail to see the deeper analysis needed in this situation given the examples above from just recent weeks of a problem that has been on going for years. Short a AP2 topic ban this is the lightest step I can see going forward. Also a side note for the arguments that their reverts were justified because they felt they were right let me quote WP:EWAn editor who repeatedly restores their preferred version is edit warring, regardless of whether those edits are justifiable: "But my edits were right, so it wasn't edit warring" is no defense.PackMecEng (talk) 03:42, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Support as a 1RR would rein in Snooganssnoogans' battleground approach to some extent. An enforcement of CIVIL would also be of use, per Pudeo's comment. There is no good reason for that uncollegial language. It serves only to discourage non-battleground editors from contributing to these topic areas as they will not see dealing with such behavior as a worthwhile use of their free time; this may be the purpose of the edit warring and incivility. Hrodvarsson (talk) 03:51, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Support due to Snooganssnoogans constant, long-term battleground approach. Agree that he constantly gets to the 3RR limit in order to dissuade others. Does not show a collaborative approach to building the Wikipedia. XavierItzm (talk) 10:10, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Oppose because as per usual - and this happens with both "sides" - it smacks of again trying to remove an opponent; the fact that a significant number of the support comments are from people involved in the AP area with a certain POV is telling. 171.33.201.13 (talk) 10:57, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Is it also telling that your editing history consists of vandalizing articles with "poop poop poop", I wonder? --Pudeo (talk) 12:41, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Support There is a longer pattern of tendentious "my way or no way" editing, and with the recent hostile and uncivil edit summaries, I think 1RR is justified. I already posted the incivility diffs above but here's them for easy access: [193][194][195][196][197][198][199]. Edit-warring is bad enough itself, but combining that with edit-summaries with expletives is terrible in a topic area that is already controversial enough. --Pudeo (talk) 12:41, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
What do you see as the problem? Guy suggested that Snoog's editorial direction was good but the way they went about doing it was not. Let's be generous and for the moment assume that to be true. In that case we still have a clear pattern of edit warring (without crossing the 3RR line), frequent refusals to engage in talk page discussions when their edits are questions (even when pinged [[200]]) and the general civility issues [[201]]. They were tband from mass edits that were clearly not just patrolling [[202]]. They also have been frequently reported to the 3RRN. While those were seen as not a violation of 3RR since they didn't do the 4th revert, how many times do we expect editors to show up at 3RRN? All that is a problem even if we don't assume there is an issue with the content/edits they push. It's very clear that many editors are concerned This also ignores the strong bias by inserting almost exclusively negative material in Republican/conservative articles and removing similar from Democratic/left leaning articles [[203]]. When subject to a 1RR limit civility is more important since you must convince others that you are correct and seek compromise instead of bludgeoning your "preferred" version. Snoog might find that many who they think are "POV pushers" would be happy to compromise with a civil editor. Springee (talk) 14:32, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
What do you see as the problem? Attempts to shoehorn an inappropriate detail, written to imply a misleading conclusion, into the lede. And then an army of the usual suspects coming out of the woodwork to silence the editor doing so, hoping they can slap enough sanctions on him to prevent any future resistance to POV-pushing. Grandpallama (talk) 19:33, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
:::: "pushes against the POV-pushing that occurs on AP2 articles" Are you willing to consider that perhaps Snoogans is engaged in Pov-pushing himself? JBlackCoffee52 (talk) 16:45, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
I'm open to considering most anything. But not that largely empty argument, especially from a relatively new account against a long-standing account that has been at the forefront of resisting POV-pushing. Grandpallama (talk) 17:48, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
You accuse others of bias and POV-pushing but take on faith that snoog doesn't do the same. Also, we need to remember WP:AGF and WP:BITE. If an editor is new, an experienced editor should help them rather than attack them and drive them off. Springee (talk) 18:22, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Whom did I accuse? What do I take on faith? I've been around Wikipedia a while, and I'm relating what I've observed on articles and on the noticeboards. I observed that Snoogans fights against POV-pushing, which is generally acknowledged as a fact by the neutral editors weighing in. As for AGF, it's important, but it's also not a suicide pact when dealing with those who aren't editing in good faith, themselves. Grandpallama (talk) 20:29, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
How is one block from 3 years ago general civility issues? How is adding relevant PolitiFact ratings a bad thing? Being "frequently reported to the 3RRN" and yet not violating 3RR shows a willingness to play by the rules even on topics where tempers run high. Having a political lean, or even (gasp) a bias, is neither a crime nor a violation of Wikipedia policy. XOR'easter (talk) 16:52, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
The block was one example of incivility. Others have also offered examples. Running up to the 3RR line repeatedly is not showing willingness to play by the rules. Please read wp:3RR, "The rule is not an entitlement to revert a page a specific number of times." Springee (talk) 17:03, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
The civility sanction was from when I was a new editor. I called an editor who was stalking me across Wikipedia (in what an admin called a "strategy to harass" me[204]) a "sociopath". That editor, SashiRolls is actually one of the 'support' votes in this thread, and the editor has a longer list of blocks and sanctions in the last few years than any active editor in American politics. That said, the use of the word "sociopath" was of course unnecessary and unhelpful, and the civility sanction was appropriate. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 17:10, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Kind of you to repeat yourself without fear of being disciplined. Don't worry, if you're on 1RR in an article happenstance should bring me to, I will observe reciprocal 1RR with regard to you. I'm not looking for a leg up, just looking to keep you from going all zombie on others. I'm more attached to the "no personal attacks" sanction, but that doesn't seem like it's going to happen despite everyone shouting in the middle of the central aisle there that you should "dial it back"
As an example, may I suggest dropping "brazen" from your quiver unless you're talking about something which can be independently verified is made of brass? 🌿 SashiRolls t · c23:42, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Oppose I'm willing to extend a fair bit of goodwill to an editor who has the endurance to deal with the constant deluge of far-right POV pushers in the AP2 area. Heavens knows I found it taxing my interest in participating in Wikipedia at all because there's always an AN/I thread, a troll always gets indeffed and then tomorrow there's a new crop of trolls. Attempts to remove a check on this troll-farm because they were a bit forceful on the revert button are not going to improve Wikipedia. They will just make it more like Conservapedia. Simonm223 (talk) 14:37, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
What about the reasonable, centralist editors who have to deal with a far left POV pushing editor who is unwilling to engage in talk page discussions? The fact that so many think a 1RR is a good idea says that something is wrong. Springee (talk) 14:54, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
I doubt a whataboutist straw man is going to do much beyond get all the usual suspects who want free reign to smear anybody left of Reagan on Wikipedia riled up about how they're all "classical liberals" or some such nonsense. Simonm223 (talk) 19:10, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Support- Snoogans has been gaming the system for years with the 3RR rule. What he is calling patrolling pages is actually just ensuring his preferred version of the page stays intact.If there is any actual vandalism on a page, I am confident that one of the thousands of other editors on wikipedia not named SnoogansSnoogans will catch it. Snoogans is probably one of the most biased editors on wikipedia and makes no secret about it. In fact he is proud of it, don't take my word for it, just look at his user page. From the point of view of anyone outside wikipedia, Snoogans appears to be on a mission to add negative information to BLP articles of persons with a certain point to view (presumably one that conflicts with his own personal views). Enforcing the 1RR will take away one of the tools that Snoogans uses to push his own POV into articles. Although I am supporting this restriction, I don't think it goes far enough. I would actually be in favor of a topic ban.--Rusf10 (talk) 15:38, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Support per Rusf10, just above. Snoogans’ user page alone should be enough for any editor here to support not only a 1RR but a topic ban in AP2. This is a proud repeat violator of WP:BATTLEGROUND and should be dealt with as such per established policy. Jusdafax (talk) 16:28, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Looking at the home page I think that is a violation of WP:POLIMIC. A number of those quotes are to Wikipedia talk pages. Previous, similar lists have been removed. Springee (talk) 16:48, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
This is my userpage[205]. It shows clearly what it entails to edit and patrol on the topics of conspiracy theories, extremism and fringe rhetoric in American politics. It also sheds light on why the overwhelming majority of 'support' votes here are right-wing POV editors (and the occasional far-left editor - because I also fix bad editing from the left) whom I have butted heads with in the past. That you want to impose a ban on me from editing in American politics because far-left and far-right conspiracy theorists hate what I'm doing and because they seek to doxx and harass me says a lot about you. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 16:53, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Your home page list is a violation of WP:POLEMIC, "Users should generally not maintain in public view negative information related to others without very good reason. Negative evidence, laundry lists of wrongs, collations of diffs and criticisms related to problems, etc., should be removed, blanked, or kept privately (i.e., not on the wiki) if they will not be imminently used, and the same once no longer needed." Springee (talk) 17:03, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
How is a collection of insults (many of them off-wiki) that Snooganssnoogans has received negative information related to others? That seems to miss the point of WP:POLEMIC. XOR'easter (talk) 17:14, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Comment Snoog's statement just above, "... the overwhelming majority of 'support' votes here are right-wing POV editors ...", is an example of that battleground behavior and mentality that everyone's talking about. – Levivich17:07, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
I voted in favor of 1RR, but Snoogans has a right to defend themselves when the community is proposing some restriction on their editing. -Darouet (talk) 19:15, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
I highly doubt that: I see a number of editors who've endorsed above, myself included, who have tended to edit on the "left" side of the American left-right political divide. -Darouet (talk) 20:07, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
I guess there are a number of voters here that rarely edit political articles (like me). This statement and some others shows Snoo's WP:1AM attitude that there is no place for. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 05:00, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
@Jtbobwaysf: - I am an editor in the AP2 topic are. While not everyone supporting is right-wing, in my view, pretty much all of the prominent right-wing AP2 editors are here supporting this. starship.paint (talk)07:52, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
I didn't even know what AP2 was today until I googled it and realized this was American Politics. Not my cup of tea to edit with really pushy editors, I mostly stayed in the in other eclectic areas of the wikispace. But I recognize the laws of physics and if Snoos has pushed on people across a wide range of articles eventually he will feel push back. Wikipedia has a big problem with editors driving out weekend editors, and it is editors like Snoos that do that. Certainly he can find a way to edit cooperatively in any area. I was also surprised by the way that the admins showed up on the Assange page and started threatening a POV editor (who had opposite POV as Snoos). It just struck me as a overreaction, and thus it drew my attention. Wikipedia is about shining light on things until the truth is revealed, and in this case this editor and the behavior around him certainly attracted a lot of attention and therefore, there must be an issue that needs examination (rather it is this particular editor, policy, or both). Jtbobwaysf (talk) 09:03, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Wikipedia is about shining light on things until the truth is revealed This is absolutely not what Wikipedia is about, and is a prime example of the attempted railroading of Snoogans that is occurring here; the conclusions you're reaching also show you're not very familiar with the players or environment of AP2. Grandpallama (talk) 15:04, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Railroading is not what is happening. The proposal isn't tban from 2AP. A 1RR limit shouldn't be a problem if the changes Snoog is pushing are neutral and reasonable. The repeated problem is that Snoog frequently refuses to engaged in discussions with those who object to snoog's reversions or even snoog's content pushes. There is no reason why so many of snoog's content disputes go to 3RR before they come to the talk page. A constant refrain here is that isn't just those on one side of the divide trying to silence the other side. That is effectively saying that those editors are all acting in bad faith and ignores that they might have legitimate grievances. I don't agree when Guy says snoog is "being right" but Guy is correct with the "in the wrong way part" The fact that snoog is working "in the wrong way" is the problem. Why would more conservative editors likely object more, well look where snoog is directing their efforts, the recipients of snoog's battleground behaviors and aspersions are more likely to be on the other side. After looking at snoog's decided to follow their lead and do a web search. This link was interesting [[206]]. So of ~500 BLP snoog was involved with, they added information effectively saying the BLP subject made a false or true claim to a bit over 200 articles. For Republican articles it was 208 "false" 0 true. For Democrats it was 3 for each. With that sort of bias of interest it's not surprising that more right leaning editors would have issues with snoog's behavior vs those on the left. Again, "in the wrong way" is still "wrong". A 1RR restriction doesn't block snoog, it just forces them to spend more time discussing and reaching consensus vs driving other editors away. Springee (talk) 15:34, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
"Citing" a thread from a forum made up of a small coterie of banned and otherwise disgruntled users is not particularly persuasive of anything. I mean, I suppose it's better than citing a thread from the "WikiInAction" subreddit that's literally run by Nazis and anti-Semites, but only just. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 15:41, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
That is an evasive reply. There are two possibilities here, 1: the material presented in the thread is wrong and thus we can dismiss it. 2: the material presented is correct. If the material is correct it certainly indicates why one side vs the other is more likely to have been the subject of Snoog's civility issues. Springee (talk) 16:41, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
This link was interesting [[207]]. So of ~500 BLP snoog was involved with, they added information effectively saying the BLP subject made a false or true claim to a bit over 200 articles. For Republican articles it was 208 "false" 0 true. For Democrats it was 3 for each. A goofily fallacious argument to make, and an example of the railroading I'm talking about. Snoogans inserted properly-sourced material into articles about right-wing BLPs, and that means that he should have 1RR, because he isn't doing the same on left-wing figures? We don't put restrictions on people just because we don't like their edits, unless their edits violate policy. Really, this entire effort is tiresome and wholly transparent. Grandpallama (talk) 17:56, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
No, you are wrong. It's not an air tight argument but is it really reasonable to assume that snoog is unbiased and Republican BLP subjects are actually making false claims at a ratio of 70:1. You also jumped to the conclusion that the material was RS or more specifically DUE and added in compliance with NPOV. Snoog's chosen addition to Mark Levin appears to fail that bar. We don't put restrictions on people just because we don't like their edits, unless their edits violate policy. Well you are correct but your statement doesn't match the facts on the ground. Snoog does violate policy (CIVIL, NPOV and edit warring). They are smart enough to make sure no single edit/revert war crosses the line but that doesn't mean the cumulative impact isn't problematic. Sorry, there are too many editors complaining and citing examples to just say this is a few editors who had their POV-pushing content reversed. Springee (talk) 18:22, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
It's clearly not an airtight argument, because it's not even a good argument. Snoogans can be incredibly biased. Editors aren't required to be NPOV--their edits are. You also didn't provide a diff (to me, at least) regarding Mark Levin, but a diff to an off-wiki site where the usual suspects are bemoaning the fact that they can't POV-push to their heart's content. Snoogans may occasionally have violated CIVIL, but 1RR doesn't make any sense in response to that. An argument is being made, poorly, for NPOV, but that argument "doesn't match the facts on the ground." You may be able to make a case for edit warring, but more neutral editors need to weigh in and agree with that, and from my read, there is far from consensus that 1RR is appropriate or is going to be enacted. The number of newer editors popping out of the ether to declare their support for such a sanction is just one of a few red flags at play here. Grandpallama (talk) 20:25, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
snoog is biased. That isn't against the rules. However, it's clear that many of their edits are not viewed by the wider community as improvements and often they are simply an effort to add negative content to articles regardless of whether the content is DUE. That isn't good editing. Neither is biting those who disagree. Look at snoog's 13:22, 6 November 2019 comment and the replies here [[208]]. The RfC is clearly against snoog's preferred content. Notice snoog's 30 Oct edit [[209]]. snoog is very certain that their preferred edit is correct yet the later RfC shows their judgement is clearly off. It's possible @Mr Ernie: is a right-wing POV pusher. Or perhaps they are concerned with things like BLP and impartial tone. Springee (talk) 20:56, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Snoogans made an edit, properly sourced. It was reverted. Snoogans took it to the talkpage, where its inclusion was rejected by consensus; Snoogans didn't attempt to reinsert it. I don't know what you think you're proving, other than that Snoogans follows policy. We don't penalize people for following policy, and we don't put 1RR restrictions on people just because we don't like their edits, which is what I said at the very beginning of my comments. Continuing to bludgeon those who are disagreeing with the lack of soundness of this proposal, when you are the proposer, is increasingly problematic. Grandpallama (talk) 21:19, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
On the talk page where their judgement has been shown to be clearly wrong. Look, you are really missing the big picture here. The issue isn't that snoog has a POV though that does have a part in the issue. The issue is that snoog edit wars, doesn't follow CIVIL rules and has lots of problematic editing behavior. Limiting them to 1RR is a clean way to avoid many of the complaints here (and I'm sure there are many more examples) while still allowing them to contribute. Just because you haven't been subject to their battleground behavior doesn't mean others are making it up. Perhaps it's just a deep state, Ukrainian ploy to get all these editors to complain about snoog. Springee (talk) 21:26, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
*Support per diffs above and Red Rock Canyon's comment: "everyone who edits American politics has experienced Snoog's edit-warring or battleground behavior. This is a consistent problem". This edit by Springee warning Snooganssnoogans to stop "wp:bludgeon those who don't support your POV" is further evedince. UberVegan🌾19:22, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Support absolutely. please don't accuse me of being a right-wing POV editor, neither am I an occasional far-left editor. User Snooganssnoogans is an edit warrior that needs restrictions.Govindaharihari (talk) 19:36, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
*Support Snoogans's statement that "the overwhelming majority of 'support' votes here are right-wing POV editors (and the occasional far-left editor - because I also fix bad editing from the left)" is an admission of his own ideological bias. Were he authentically a neutral editor then he would receive equal opposition from both sides. JBlackCoffee52 (talk) 20:41, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Have you read that page? Because your odd interpretation of it suggests you need to revisit it. Having a bias doesn't preclude one from editing certain pages unless their bias results in POV-pushing. Snoogans is disliked by a number of editors commenting here largely because he pushes against the POV-pushing that occurs on AP2 articles. Grandpallama (talk) 15:04, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Were he authentically a neutral editor then he would receive equal opposition from both sides. Frankly, that's not how life works. XOR'easter (talk) 00:50, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
That's a case of false balance. The simple fact is that when I add content that may reflect poorly on left-leaning figures and causes, there isn't a slew of editors who come out and claim that high-quality RS are unreliable (multiple editors voting 'support' in this thread do so), that peer-reviewed science is bunk, and promote whatever conspiracy theories that are popular on the left. I can add research showing that voter ID laws don't appear to have any negative impact (contrary to what Democrats say)[210] and that immigration can have adverse impacts (which goes against Democratic talking points)[211][212] without any pushback, but if I add peer-reviewed research on the positive effects of immigration and research that suggests adverse impacts of voter ID laws, then you have to deal with a cavalcade of right-wing editors who dispute the content. I mean, the editor who started the call for 1RR, Springee, literally removed RfC consensus content on multiple occasions which was based on multiple peer-reviewed studies and expert content about how a major publication engaged in climate change denial.[213][214][215][216][217]. One of the editors voting 'support' in this thread, MrThunderbolt1000T, just yesterday fought to remove text sourced to a state-of-the-art literature review by the National Academy of Sciences on Concealed carry in the United States, because apparently he personally knows the literature better.[218] Those are illustrative examples from just the last few days. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 00:44, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Here we go again with "state of the art," as usual. Narcissistic charm and childish hostility. You're not the judge of credibility court, bud. You're just proving the accusations of WP:BATTLEGROUND. You accuse me of "brazen falsehoods," yet you act like saying "state of the art" makes your favored paper the right paper. Your conduct is ridiculous and narcissistic. --MrThunderbolt1000T (talk) 01:36, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
So why are you making false accusations against me? You have repeatedly, falsely claimed that I removed RfC material on multiple occasions but it was removed only once and that was before I was aware that it was added after a RfC. Rather than discussing the issue civilly you went right into actuations. I've explained why your claim is false here [[
Comment At least half a dozen of the "Supports" are from new-ish editors, at least one of which is a very obvious sock, and a couple more are from editors with long block logs in this area. I don't think this is something that ANI should be looking at. Black Kite (talk)21:11, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
^This. I suggest editors weigh this comment before casting a vote, and before closing. One account also appears to be an SPA with a strong POV in the topic area, but then again, they’re relatively new, like several others. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 23:01, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
No, it is just their way of hand waving BS. Yes everyone supporting this must be an evil so and so. You notice their only opposition to it boils down to "I like what they do". So luckily that kind of argument holds no water policy wise and is easily ignored. What matters is the clear and demonstrated pattern of edit warring, disruption, and battle ground behavior that needs to be corrected. PackMecEng (talk) 00:07, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
I don’t know what you’re talking about PacMecEng. I certainly never said anyone was “evil”, nor implied it. Or was this a comment on something else? If you aren’t speaking to me, I’m not sure I’ve been given you any cause for anything but good faith. I try to be fair and evaluate edits based on merit and adherence to policy. As far as i know, the only interaction I’ve been ever had with you, as I recall, was thanking you for an edit. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 02:40, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Levivich, I’m not sure if you weren’t addressing me, but I assume from the context you were. I certainly didn’t mean you. That should be obvious. I meant MrThunderbolt1000T. You’re obviously not a new user, so I don’t get why you’d lump yourself in that statement, nor do I get the aggression. You’re an editor in good standing, and you know I’ve appreciate your work here. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 02:40, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Oh, I run an SPA with a strong POV? That couldn't be farther from the truth. If you bothered to take a look at my contributions before making such a baseless claim, you'd see that most of my edits are focused on articles outside of AP2. The majority are grammatical fixes, not even ‘’’remotely’’’ political or capable of exhibiting POV. The two times I've had content disputes with Snoogans, I was pushing a completely neutral and fair representation of the facts. If you're going to accuse me of having a “strong POV” and having an SPA, then Snoogans should be much more of a concern to you. Me listing my political opinions isn't exhibiting a POV-pushing attitude, or being an SPA: it's literally *just stating my beliefs.* Oh, and no, I'm not “new.” I've had a Wikipedia account for four years. If I remember correctly, my first edit was to a hurricane-related article, and I don't just edit articles about hurricanes. --MrThunderbolt1000T (talk) 19:04, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Sorry Symmachus Auxiliarus, that wasn't really directed at you and I didn't mean to come off as aggressive. Going back to BK's point (and other comments similar to it), even if there are half a dozen editors who are new or whose !votes should otherwise be discounted, that still leaves over a dozen editors in support. It's frustrating to see editors dismiss, for example, my concerns, because of how they feel about other editors who share my concerns. That doesn't make much sense, you know? – Levivich05:20, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
On a similar note, there's an oppose !vote from an IP address with no edits besides vandalism, using the phrase "as per usual" and claiming knowledge of the AP area. Hrodvarsson (talk) 05:29, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Oppose - Looking at what started this, no, this should not result in a sanction. Snoog is the type of editor who is usually right but can be rash in the course of being right. We need editors familiar with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines to be active on challenging articles like this, even when it makes them a target for, say SPAs, like is happening here. — Rhododendritestalk \\ 22:37, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Oppose I can't help but suspect that the amount of voting here has more to do with Snooganssnoogans' prolific editing rather than their actual level of disruption. They occasionally revert too readily (which is true of a lot of us) but they've been responsive to criticism and have shown improvements since I first interacted with them, and they've remain pretty restrained in the face of a fair bit of undeserved provocation. I don't see anything here that can't be handled with a gentle caution to dial it back a bit on the reverts and try to write for the enemy a bit more. Nblundtalk23:26, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
This editor just followed me here from the talk page of a right-wing pundit where this editor is advocating that we whitewash RS content about an anti-transgender speech that the far-right pundit held.[219]Snooganssnoogans (talk) 01:36, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Support 1RR if not outright topic ban for Snooganssnoogans. This is not his first proverbial rodeo in this contentious area. Normally this should warrant AE topic ban of proportionate duration rather than drama boards but here we are. Their disruption exceeds contribution to this topic. ConstantPlancks (talk) 05:08, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Quite the inaccurate aspersion as the sources weren't written when I edited that article. Also an interesting definition of edit-warring considering your behaviour being discussed here. But continue ConstantPlancks (talk) 05:33, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Oppose - This hodgepodge of context-free diffs seems very weak. As for calling bullshit "bullshit", yes, that's appropriate. Sometimes bullshit should be identified as bullshit. Treating this as automatically "battleground" is completely unpersuasive. Grayfell (talk) 06:40, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Oppose per Nblund and Aquillion. In addition, obviously not everyone supporting is right-wing, just that it seems that pretty much every (prominent) right-wing AP2 editor is here supporting (yes, some left-wing AP2 editors are here opposing, but fewer, it seems - and I might as well say I lean left on some areas). starship.paint (talk)07:57, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Oppose A unilateral sanction against Snoogans isn't the solution here - maybe 1RR needs to be implemented for all editors in AP2.-- P-K3 (talk) 13:24, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Oppose. An insufficient justification for this unilateral sanction. Also, she/he is a very reasonable contributor - based on my experience of interaction with them. 1RR for the page is sufficent. My very best wishes (talk) 16:47, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Support 1RR limit on Snooganssnoogans, based on my experience with this editor at Casualties of the Iraq War. I have described these experiences in detail above. Snoogans makes far too much use of the "Undo" button, often ignoring BRD. A 1RR limit would allow Snoogans to continue editing, but curtail this particular behavioral problem. -Thucydides411 (talk) 19:52, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Comment - Regardless of whether you think Snoogan is justified in his battleground tactics, bear in mind that Snoogan's own position is: "As someone who patrols hundreds (if not thousands) of controversial American politics pages (which are rife with bad edits), it would force me to dedicate countless hours to starting talk page discussions and keeping tabs of dozens of on-going disputes without any effective way of ensuring a stable status quo version of the article" [[220]] Edit warring is not a substitute for spending time on talk pages. 3RR is not an entitlement or a license to edit war. This is true for anyone of any political bent, and this behavior is not OK. It's not excusable even if you agree with Snoogan's viewpoint. The imposition of a 1RR rule is enforcement of Wikipedia's most basic policies, and would encourage Snoogan to talk with other editors to reach consensus, rather than just revert them all the time. May His Shadow Fall Upon You ● 📧20:37, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
^This editor has already voted and commented in this thread. I can't get over the nerve that this editor has in lecturing me about edit-warring when the same editor violated 1RR and consensus-required on the William Barr page to add misleading content[221][222]. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 02:33, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
And then I opened an RfC, and all outside editors agreed with my proposed edit, and you were the only Oppose. Again, further demonstrating that you edit war in order to keep your WP:OWN version of the article in place even when others disagree with it. "But I'm right" is not a justification for edit warring. May His Shadow Fall Upon You ● 📧14:19, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
As was already pointed out, the version that was approved in the RfC is different than the version which you tried to edit-war into the article. That you feel the need to be dishonest about this is illustrative about why editing in American Politics is so dysfunctional. Here are the diffs.[223][224][225]Snooganssnoogans (talk) 14:34, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
I was hardly "edit warring" but my point is that you were literally the only person who was against my edit in the RfC. So please don't claim that you were doing anything other than trying to WP:OWN the article. But I suppose this is all a moot point as an admin has justifiably placed a 1RR restriction upon you. Perhaps now you'll discuss on talk pages instead of edit warring. May His Shadow Fall Upon You ● 📧14:40, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
(1) the page was covered by 1RR and consensus-required, which you blatantly violated. Of course, when you edit war it can't be "edit-warring"... (2) You're intentionally conflating the text in the RfC with a different text that you were edit-warring into the article. The misleading text that you were edit-warring into the article was opposed by three editors on the talk page[226], whereas the different text that was ultimately approved[227] in a RfC was approved near-unanimously. The need to tell fibs about this does not reflect well on you. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 14:52, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
^I have a history with this editor on the Illegal immigration to the United States page where this user edit-warred debunked anti-immigrant propaganda and poorly sourced text into the article[228][229][230], as well as removed the best possible academic research on the subject (a recently published 642-page state-of-the-art literature review by the National Academy of Sciences[231]) with a false edit summary just because it failed to portray illegal immigrants in a horrible light.[232] If 1RR had been in place for me at the time, this editor might have succeeded in edit-warring the debunked anti-immigration propaganda into the article, and would have been able to remove a National Academy of Sciences report (which are often considered the gold standard lit reviews) from Wikipedia. That's relevant context. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 03:18, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
The edit in question begins with A report released by the United States Department of Justice and United States Department of Homeland Security]]. He decided that the official government reports on the situation were not to be trusted, nor any reliable sources that mentioned them or anything else he disagreed with, and edit warred and argued nonstop until I and others just gave up trying to deal with him. I still believe that mentioning what the American government says on the matter is important. I'd like more people to just look at this [233] and tell me if there is a problem with Snooganssnoogans editing and how he represents what's going on. DreamFocus13:29, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Multiple fact-checkers had debunked the anti-immigrant propaganda that you added to the article, as I explained to you in detail on the talk page[234]. However, even after you were notified that you misused a primary source, and fact-checkers and RS such as PolitiFact,[235][236] NY Times[237], and FactCheck.Org[238][239] had debunked it, you still insisted that it belonged in the article. In short, you repeatedly edit-warred debunked anti-immigrant propaganda into the article, and then removed the gold standard literature review on the subject. If 1RR had been in place for me, you would have gotten away with it, and the encyclopedia would have been worse off. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 14:45, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Oppose, although I have to say I'm torn. On the one hand, Snoog is a dedicated and productive patroller in a difficult area, and I really think his tendency to revert isn't an expression of battleground mentality, but of a desire to see articles reflect consensus as he understands it. The fact he doesn't violate 3RR shows he knows how to color inside the lines, and when the consensus is against him, he knows how to let it go and move on. On the other hand, it'd be extremely funny to see a bunch of the people who engaged in edit wars with him successfully get him sanctioned for edit warring. The lack of self-awareness is just... *chef's kiss* peak AN/I. In all seriousness, I endorse Aquillion's rationale. If there's a problem in AP2, this is not the solution. —Rutebega (talk) 06:15, 15 November 2019 (UTC
Pudeo, but he's not haranguing the talk page (at least from what I've seen), so you could call that an effective coping strategy. If you think litigating userpage guidelines is a good use of your time, be my guest, but it doesn't interest me in the slightest. —Rutebega (talk) 15:55, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Note about DS restriction, First, apologies: I did not intend to interfere with this still-ongoing community process. I crafted the unilateral sanction against Snoogans when I believed this thread had been closed with no consensus. Second: I have now revoked the sanctions based on the (nonbinding/informal) commitment Snoogans made here. While I obviously think that's good enough to merit a second chance, I don't want to interfere any more with this process other than to state what I did. (translated: @Closer, don't count this as a vote.) ~Awilley (talk)16:15, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
That's essentially the same rationale Snoogans gave for edit-warring at Casualties of the Iraq War: "Because I cannot spend the rest of my life dealing with this BS" ([240]). "Dealing with this BS" would have consisted of replying to three veteran editors who had agreed on a compromise text. Snoogans argues above that they need the power to frequently revert in order to deal with vandals, SPAs and POV-pushers, but in the example I'm giving here, Snoogans was undoing a compromise agreed on by three longstanding editors. Snoogans couldn't be bothered to argue against the other editors, but chose simply to hit the revert button. This is the behavior that needs to be reined in. -Thucydides411 (talk) 13:15, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
(1) when I add new content (or alter existing content) and it gets reverted by a regular editor, I will start a talk page discussion and wait a few days before making the first restoration. If it gets reverted again after I restore it, I will not restore it again, unless it gets support in a RfC or through external dispute resolution. (2) when a regular editor removes or alters long-standing text, I revert this user once. If the user restores the content again, I start a talk page discussion (even if the other editor is violating BRD) and will wait a few days before restoring the status quo version. If the other editor re-adds the content into the article at that point, I start a RfC about the content, but I'm allowed to make sure that the status quo version is maintained until the new content gets approved in the RfC. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 04:31, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
It's pretty clear that Snooganssnoogans has a long list of enemies, and I'm sure they will be monitoring whether Snooganssnoogans violates their commitments above, and WP:AE can deal with it accordingly. Snooganssnoogans can hardly complain for being sanctioned if they were found to have strayed from their own self-proposed commitments. starship.paint (talk)15:00, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
The arrogance of an editor and the sad state of policy at wikipedia such that an editor makes a special commitment to follow wikipedia policy (that we are all bound to follow). If we dont follow the posted rules, we get penalized. Consequences are the bedrock of rules enforcement. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 22:21, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
^Accusations of arrogance coming from an editor who edit-warred contested content into the lead of a BLP on multiple occasions despite reverts from two editors and vociferous objections from multiple editors on the talk page (and now there's a RfC that is overwhelmingly against the content that this editor was edit-warring into the lede). If we dont follow the posted rules, we get penalized. What do you propose should be your punishment for edit-warring? I can't get over just shameless and hypocritical some of these comments are. Where is your sense of awareness? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 22:31, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
Indeed, as Jtbobwaysf notes, instead of promising to adhere to existing policies, Snoogans in his special pleading carves out his own personal policy. XavierItzm (talk) 10:24, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
Snooganssnoogans has made two voluntary commitments
Oppose - this is way over the top and there's no basis for it. Controversial area basically over run with sock puppets and WP:TEND and you got a problem with a couple frustrated edit summaries? There's literally at least two dozen editors who are in front of Snoogans^2 in the "should be sanctioned" que. Some of them commenting here. Volunteer Marek 02:25, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
Support, per above comments and diffs and for example Hillary Clinton said without real evidences that Tulsi Gabbard is a Russian asset,[242] yet Snooganssnoogans removed the word "without evidence" saying it violates BLP (Hillary Clinton's biography) and also he said "Only without evidence if your head is in the sand: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/12/us/politics/tulsi-gabbard.html" totally violating BLP by making an original research and a provocative comment in the edit summary, "if your head is in the sand". There is also this [243].
Also saying that those who vote support are right-wing editors, well, I am probably what you call a left-wing yet I am voting support so what you said is just rubbish.
I want also to note that ever since the Democrats lost the elections to Trump, they have been accusing Russia for their lost. This behavior of the democrats led to increase of Russophobia among Americans which effectively made the English wikipedia much more Russophobic because most editors are Americans. This type of hate should not be allowed in Wikipedia and Wikipedia should remain neutral.--SharabSalam (talk) 10:29, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
I rarely post here, but I feel like this comment is really inappropriate. I know things can get heated but Wikipedia is not a soapbox. Comments on the state of russophobia in the wake of the election are unrelated to the discussion at hand, and at least I feel, kind of disruptive. Darthkayak (talk) 20:54, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
The interesting thing about this above post by Sharab (while maybe WP:NOTFORUM applies) is that it demonstrates how Snoog has stepped on the toes of a wide ranging group of editors, from those on the right wing, those on the left wing (as the editor above self identifies) and those on no-wing like myself who rarely edit AP. I have seen some editors frame this as a left/right issues, and since I don't know the AP2 editors well enough to even understand who might be left/right, it is clear from above that Snoog has done his WP:TE on just about everyone. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 09:23, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
Yes, the issue is not the political direction of the editing, but rather the complete disregard for WP:BRD. I gave diffs above of how this played out at Casualties of the Iraq War. It would have been one thing if Snooganssnoogans and I had simply disagreed about the sources, but the real problem was Snoogans' insistence on making large-scale changes to the article and then repeated reverts against multiple editors to keep those changes in the article. That's the sort of behavior that has to change. -Thucydides411 (talk) 11:09, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
@Thucydides411: - but Snooganssnoogans will change his behaviour. Scenario 1 is that he abides by his voluntary restrictions, behavioural change occurs. Scenario 2 is that he does not abide by his voluntary restriction, he'll be dragged here to be sanctioned for it. Surely the consensus will not favour Snooganssnoogans if he flouts his own rules. It's already around 50/50 already. starship.paint (talk)14:59, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
Oppose - A pattern of edit warring has not been shown[244] and the vast majority of Snooganssnoogans' reversions are grounded in policies like WP:CONSENSUS and WP:NPOV. 1RR is not justified based on my observations of Snooganssnoogans' editing in this topic area and the diffs provided in this complaint. - MrX 🖋 18:59, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This is despite the fact that policy requires that relevant but controversial material in the lead of a WP:BLP not be suppressed, and it is not uncommon that poor health or alleged torture under detainment be noted in biographies. Again, more eyes at the article and participation in the RfC would be helpful there. -Darouet (talk) 16:56, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
As always, I strongly support more eyes at more pages (no one has started more RfCs in Am Politics editing than me in the last few years). I have no doubt at all that the community will agree with me (and the majority on the article talk page) that one opinion suggesting that the British authorities are harming or trying to kill Assange is not ledeworthy. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 17:24, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
At a glance, most of those sources don't even mention the part of his statements that is disputed in the lead (that his life is at risk), and even the ones that do do so in a context that has different implications than the disputed lead wording, ie. the lead wording makes it sound like he should be killed, whereas the emphasis of those sources is on psychological trauma and the fact that he is sick. --Aquillion (talk) 22:40, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
I don't understand why editors thought that the text implied Assange was going to be killed. I just can't see that implication.--Jack Upland (talk) 23:03, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
In fairness, when an expert on torture says "his life is at risk", we don't suppose he's talking about the dangers of high cholesterol. If a cardiologist says "his life is at risk", we don't suppose he's talking about being tortured to death. – Levivich05:30, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
I applied twice, they wouldn't let me in. They also threw me out a few times–of the Yard. So I spent a lot of time in The Pit. That's gone, though, so now I spend my time on Wikipedia. – Levivich16:47, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
But that's just jumping to conclusions. I now understand why there was such a ruckus about the text, but I think that just proves that many editors jump to conclusions. I think your examples prove the opposite to what you intend. A cardiologist is fully entitled to express opinions on any number of issues; it doesn't have to be confined to affairs of the heart. This is batshit crazy!!!--Jack Upland (talk) 08:42, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
True, but if he says someone is in danger of death it is reasonable to assume he is talking about his area of expertise. Thus wording has to be chosen to ensure no such conclusion can be drawn.Slatersteven (talk) 11:24, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
The issue is even trickier because The UN special rapporteur and "expert" on torture has, in the very same OHCHR press release, reported that Assange shows signs of psychological torture [245]:
The Special Rapporteur and his medical team visited the imprisoned Wikileaks founder in May and reported that he showed “all the symptoms typical for prolonged exposure to psychological torture” and demanded immediate measures for the protection of his health and dignity.
Despite what they would like to think, holders of Harvard graduate and professional degrees might be called "Harvard-trained", but they're not "Harvard-educated". That's for Harvard College graduates only. Sorry, John Yoo. (That still leaves Jared Kushner, but every school has its embarrassments – you can lead a horticulture but you can't make him think.) EEng21:51, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Comment: Exactly why is the article on Julian Assange considered part of American politics? Yes, he's been charged in the USA, but that's it. Is it just the whim of an admin???--Jack Upland (talk) 01:00, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
I find your questions refreshing. Yes, Julian Assange is charged with espionage for leaking classified military and diplomatic documents, but thats not it: he also leaked Hillary Clinton's emails, which he got from the Russians, who hacked a US political candidate's computer to get them, and then leaked them through Assange in order to influence a presidential election. Allegedly. – Levivich01:23, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
This is like Six Degrees of Kevin Spacey! Any article can be linked with American politics. The Assange page can also be linked to Eastern Europe!!!--Jack Upland (talk) 01:58, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Even prior to the Podesta leaks, most of Wikileaks most prominent document dumps were related to US politics. The problems that plague AP2 are obviously present on that page, so the DS seems pretty obviousNblundtalk02:37, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
So Assange is an Australian who founded an Iceland-based organisation and went into the Ecuadorian embassy to escape charges in Sweden. But, yeah, it's all about the USA!!! That's not obvious; it's batshit crazy!!!--Jack Upland (talk) 03:12, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Put all those elements in a circle around Assange and you can draw a direct link from him to any of them. That's how it works. He was an important link in the Trump/Russian interference in the American elections. -- BullRangifer (talk) 03:39, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
So I was right. It is Six Degrees of Kevin Spacey. Admins are highly intelligent and could make a link between American politics and almost any article. So it is just the whim of the admin.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:48, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
I'd call it common sense - it's hard to argue that Assange doesn't fall into the category of "closely related people". The US is mentioned in all 4 lead paragraphs of his article, starting with "After the 2010 leaks, the United States government launched a criminal investigation into WikiLeaks. Doug Wellertalk09:17, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
While I think it's obvious that Assange is related to US politics, I do think that this illustrates why it's infeasible to just apply an automatic 1RR to the entire AP2 topic area - there's inevitably going to be some confusion about what articles fall under AP2, especially given that many people don't follow all the details of American politics; even a non-AP2-related article could suddenly have a section or paragraph that clearly relates to AP2 without warning. 1RR restrictions do absolutely require the template on the page to let people know it applies there, otherwise it's going to be a total mess. --Aquillion (talk) 13:48, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
But this discussion is about whether to establish a noticeboard, and is nothing to do with Julian Assange or 1RR restrictions (or, for that matter, any particular editor). Let's put comments in the relevant discussion, not sidetrack discussions about other issues. Phil Bridger (talk) 13:57, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Since this was mentioned by another editor I think it would be worth asking. Is Snoogansnoogan's "Some_of_my_endorsements" list [[247]] a violation of WP:POLEMIC?
The list contains a large number of quotes with links to their sources. A number of those sources are Wikipedia talk page discussions and thus quotes from other editors presented without their original context. Per POLEMIC, "Users should generally not maintain in public view negative information related to others without very good reason. Negative evidence, laundry lists of wrongs, collations of diffs and criticisms related to problems, etc., should be removed, blanked, or kept privately (i.e., not on the wiki) if they will not be imminently used, and the same once no longer needed.". The full list including the external quotes probably violates "Very divisive or offensive material not related to encyclopedia editing" since the material is about reactions to Snoog's edits, not a list of things to do or helpful links. In particular keeping a list of people you have ticked off comes across as petty rather than CIVIL. Some of this is especially troubling where Snoog is involved with a BLP. For example Mark Levin's page where Snoog takes pride in the BLP's subject's response to their edits[[248]]. Even if Snoog's edits are good for Wikipedia on the whole, this list seems petty, doesn't benefit Wikipedia on the whole and further endorses the view that Snoog looks at issues with a BATTLEGROUND POV. Springee (talk) 17:18, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
On the whole, no. Off-wiki reactions to Snoog's edits are indeed related to encyclopedia editing and are not negative information related to others. Records of on-wiki disputes can, in principle, be useful references, particularly for an editor who works on tumultuous topics. XOR'easter (talk) 17:36, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Because they're links. They point to the context from which they were taken. And so they provide a record of arguments past which might potentially be relevant for arguments in the future. XOR'easter (talk) 17:44, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
"Because they're links" has not been a sufficient explanation in the past. You are really stretching to say these are "arguments" that might be useful in the future. Springee (talk) 17:52, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
How is it a stretch to say that it's in principle not a bad idea to record when people have been upset with you? Perhaps throwing on-wiki disputes in the same bucket with angry Reddit threads is in dubious taste, but that intensity of line-by-line policing of somebody's user page is itself a kind of battleground mentality that I would rather avoid. XOR'easter (talk) 17:56, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
I think the key point in WP:POLEMIC would be "Users should generally not maintain in public view negative information related to others without very good reason." A list of off-wiki criticisms directed against the user themselves isn't generally "related to others" in the sense meant there, I think - the list doesn't, for the most part, place much emphasis on the source of the criticisms unless they're a major news outlet or public figure; the focus is primarily on Snoog in the sense of "this is what I deal with" rather than being a WP:POLEMIC about others. And, beyond that, it does serve an important editorial purpose in establishing that Snooganssnoogans has been the target of sustained off-wiki campaigning, which matters when discussing controversies related to them - eg. if a bunch of editors (especially new editors or ones with few prior interactions with them) start repeating criticisms covered in those links without prompting, it establishes that that may not be organic. I feel it is reasonable for Snooganssnoogans to want to have those highlighted so people know they may be a factor - and I say this as someone who has been targeted by some of those outlets myself (in fact, I think I'm named in one or two of the links there; the stuff I'm describing briefly happened to me.) For me it mostly evaporated quickly because I am comparatively boring, but I can definitely see how, if it continued in a sustained manner like Snooganssnoogans seems to have had to deal with, it would be useful to have a list that I can direct people to in order to give them context. Obviously, again, most of the people commenting here aren't like that - almost everyone here has interacted with the user extensively, aside from maybe the "poop poop poop" IP. But in general that random weirdness is the sort of thing that targeted off-wiki criticism causes, and when it does happen it's useful to be able to have a list you can point to to say "oh, yeah, they may be here because of that." And making it visible reduces the need to constantly explain. --Aquillion (talk) 18:30, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
I might be more sympathetic with that view if Snoog didn't take such a battleground approach to disagreements. I'm curious how many times they insulted or violated CIVIL in reply to me over the years. Even if we disagree that isn't acceptable. Also, you talk about what Snoog has dealt with, what about what they are delivering? Consider the Mark Levin example. Snoog's RfC clearly is not supporting what they want to do with the article. Why should we believe that Levin's criticism isn't valid? Can we assume Snoog would respect NPOV after being mentioned by Levin? More to the point, since this is a list, how does it not violate, "Users should generally not maintain in public view negative information related to others without very good reason. Negative evidence, laundry lists of wrongs, collations of diffs and criticisms related to problems, etc., should be removed, blanked, or kept privately (i.e., not on the wiki) if they will not be imminently used, and the same once no longer needed."? Springee (talk) 18:46, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Keep because it's plainly hilarious and humor is good for everyone here. On a more serious note we need to give people latitude on their user pages. Add: lastly, it's a list of clear personal attacks that Snoogans has experienced... I can't see how listing those harms others. -Darouet (talk) 19:12, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Delete - At first I wasn't sure if the list itself was the problem. The problem is what the list represents. The fact that Snoogans maintains such a list tells you the purpose of his editing. It is done in a way to attract as much negative attention as possible. Snoogans would have you believe that everyone who criticizes him is just a "right-wing extremist", but many of the criticisms documented on the user page are completely legitimate. Like when Snoogans nominated the Peter Strzok article for deletion [249]. Strzok clearly met notability requirements, but Snoogans nominated the article anyway. Everyone should take a closer look at the list though because its not only off-wiki criticism, some of it is on-wiki. Even more problematic is that it includes quotes that admins have since redacted (which you can see on the user page, I'm not repeating any of this here, just providing links). For example, [250] & [251]. After a closer look at the extensive divisive and inappropriate content in the list, I have come to the conclusion that it needs to be removed, but even its removal will not change the underlying behavior.--Rusf10 (talk) 00:40, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Keep - Because it is just more evidence that Snoogans revels in incivility, battleground behavior, and bullying. Clearly, many editors have an issue with this editor. If there is an editor who deserves sanctions, it is Snoogans. GlassBones (talk) 03:01, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Let me get this straight: Snoogans makes note of vitriol and attacks directed at him/her by other people, and to you that means that he/she is the one who "revels in incivility, battleground behavior, and bullying"? Doesn't pass the laugh test. And please immediately disclose whether you have edited under another account or IP. I see that you have something like 30 edits under this account, of which the vast majority are following around Snoogans, trying to get him/her sanctioned, or promoting Biden-related fringe notions. We weren't born yesterday, and this project does not allow hounding. Neutralitytalk17:21, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
"please immediately disclose whether you have edited under another account or IP" is not a proper question to ask anyone. People are allowed to edit as an IP and then create an account, to abandon one account for another, even to have a WP:CLEANSTART. They don't have to answer demands to self-identify. However, in this case, GlassBones has already made a voluntary disclosure, a couple of threads below. At the very least, read the whole thread before making accusatory demands of people. – Levivich18:41, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
WP:CLEANSTART states that it is "not a license to resume editing in areas under heightened scrutiny" but "is intended for users who wish to move on to new areas having learned from the past, or who wish to set aside old disputes and poor conduct." Under GlassBones' disclosed prior account (BattleshipGray), he/she repeatedly clashed with Snoogs and multiple others in this topic area. All of this is just about the polar opposite to a clean start. Neutralitytalk20:33, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Keep I've seen far more polemic user pages kept on the grounds that they weren't really hurting anyone. This honestly just seems petty at this point. Simonm223 (talk) 14:56, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
No policy violation here, and wrong forum anyway. First of all, Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion is the proper forum. Second of all, some of the statements here are incomprehensible. Snoogans has made note of the vitriol directed at him/her by other people. Not vice versa. Somehow, we are supposed to think that this is a strike against Snoogans? The clear fact of the matter is that Snoogans has been targeted and disparaged by others, on- and off-wiki (including many sockpuppets, fringe figures, conspiracy-mongers, and the like) and he/she choose to keep track of all this. There's absolutely no policy against this, and I believe others keep similar lists in their user-space. This is not a project that I, personally, would choose to undertake (seems like a waste of time), but Snoogs is totally entitled to do it, perhaps to show that he/she won't be intimidated, or just finds it amusing. In either case, he's entitled to do so. Neutralitytalk17:21, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Other than your opinion you have made no case why my view was incorrect. It certainly is reasonable to see a list such as this as an "enemies list". However, since there doesn't seem to be consensus for removal that's that. However, if you want to step up and make your case for BOOMERANG, go for it. Springee (talk) 02:36, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
It's fine - We have numerous admins and other editors who have had similar content in their user space for years without other editors springing into action. - MrX 🖋 16:12, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
WP:SNOW. There's no chance that a consensus will develop to enact this proposal. Ending this in the usual interest of stopping the ongoing bickering. --Jayron3213:15, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Altough I support the 1RR restriction above, I do not believe it goes far enough to stop Snooganssnoogans persistent gaming of the system and WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior. Snooganssnoogans own user page (which is being debated above) makes the case that he has damaged Wikipedia's reputation and his contributions in the area of American Politics is a net negative. In my opinion a topic ban would be the only effective solution.--Rusf10 (talk) 20:25, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Oppose - no evidence to support this (the fact that Snoogs is attacked by fringe elements online does not mean that "he has damaged Wikipedia's reputation"—that assertion is mind-boggling), and frankly there is a strong unclean hands aspect to this proposal. Neutralitytalk20:39, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Rusf10 has an 11 year edit history with no blocks. Have they been involved with any issues with Snoog that would suggest they are proposing this out of revenge etc? Springee (talk) 20:43, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Yes, the two have repeatedly clashed, with Rusf10 often using personal terms against Snoogs. See here and here, to name a few. Snoogs' conduct toward Rusf10, in comparison, looks fairly measured. Moreover, within the last eight months or so Rusf10 has been cautioned by admins for proxying for a banned editor (by restoring or un-hatting "belligerent, unconstructive hyper-partisan" talk-page edits from the banned editor on an article talk page in the AP2 area) and has had an AP2 discretionary sanction (specifically, an "auto-boomerang" sanction) imposed "for continuing to engage in WP:Battleground behavior and WP:ABF" despite warnings, including for "the hounding nature of, and battleground behavior exhibited" in his "third AE enforcement request in a year against User:BullRangifer." In light of this history, Rusf10 is possibly the last person on the project that should be bringing these kinds of cases to the noticeboards. Neutralitytalk21:12, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
@Neutrality:First, of all this thread isn't about me, so stop trying to deflect because you want to get your buddy Snoogans off the hot seat. Why don't we also post Snoog's edit summaries that preceded mine? (Would that be the NEUTRAL way to present it???) On the Justin Amash article Snoog's accuses me of feeding a "disinformation campaign" and on the Nancy Pelosi article he falsely accused me of "disputing that the BBC is a RS" (I didn't even remove it as a source). Stop taking things out of context and casting aspersions by bringing up other unrelated issues. And I have one suggestion: change your username, it is very misleading, you do not even have the slightest semblance of neutrality.--Rusf10 (talk) 21:30, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
This is the kind of hostile, battlegrounding response that others have warned you about. And yes, when you (or another other editor) seeks to remove another editor from a topic area, of course the editor's own conduct in the topic area will be examined. Neutralitytalk21:49, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
This isn't even remotely consistent with your vote on the 1RR proposal. You discredited Rusf10 as someone with a history of battlegrounding, hostility and personal attacks, yet all the evidence presented in the 1RR proposal confirms that Snoogans has done what you accuse Rusf10 of doing. You are the last person who should be picking sides and being hypocritical. The evidence proves the majority of the allegations against Snoogans. --MrThunderbolt1000T (talk) 00:36, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
That was not a "battlegrounding response". I am just defending myself against your personal attack in which you took my statements out of context. Please do not pretend that you are not completely biased in this area. No matter what behavior Snoogans exhibits, you always have his back. Besides taking my edit summaries out of context, you have brought up unrelated (and months old) issues. That's battleground behavior and an Ad hominem personal attack. Maybe your behavior needs to be examined (especially since you are an admin), but this is not an appropriate place to do so.--Rusf10 (talk) 22:51, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
First, of all this thread isn't about me - actually, it became (potentially) about you as soon as you started it. See WP:BOOMERANG and WP:CLEANHANDS. If the reporter has "unclean hands" (ie. they may have contributed to the dispute, disruption, or problem they're reporting, at least to some extent) it's considered appropriate to bring it up here; having your own conduct examined is always part of the risk of requesting action from WP:ANI, WP:AE, WP:RFAR, and other conduct-resolution venues. This is especially true when dealing with revert-warring, incivility, or battleground conduct, because those are situations that often come from sub-optimal conduct by both sides. The purpose of this discussion is to identify the root problem and resolve it, not just to discuss one editor. --Aquillion (talk) 12:21, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Oppose I'm sympathetic with the intent but even if that is the correct solution in the end, and I'm not certain it is, I don't see it as the obvious next step. We should be using the smallest restriction needed to address the problem. I think 1RR will address the issue without an unduly preventing Snoog from dealing with clearly bad edits as well as calling for community attention/consensus when needed. Yes, as someone who has been on the receiving end of Snoog's incivility I can see wanting to effectively tell them to go away but on principle that isn't how things should be handled. Springee (talk) 20:41, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Oppose I think XOR’easter and Neutrality have already hit the nail on the head and put it better than I could, respectively. I’m still waiting to see what other editors say before weighing in on any possible sanctions, but this is a nuclear option that isn’t needed. I’ll likewise join in the chorus saying that the notion suggested by Rusf10 that Snooganssnoogans has “hurt the reputation” of the encyclopedia is beyond ridiculous on the face of it. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 22:45, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Support based on the diffs well above, not the wording of this proposal so the Tban should have a six month term. The edit warring, insulting edit summaries and commentary, battleground mentality and his already noticed inability to edit these controversial articles with a NPOV makes them a net negative in this arena.--MONGO (talk) 22:54, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Support, if his WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior continues after 1RR. It's no secret that many of us here have an issue with Snoogans. The sheer volume of support for the proposed 1RR, posted diffs and other evidence are more than enough to warrant a 1RR for Snoogans. If his hostile, retaliatory behavior went any farther, I would support a full and permanent topic ban from AP2. However, I believe in giving people a chance to change their ways and become constructive Wikipedia editors if possible. Snoogans has claimed that he patrols AP2 and that he makes it a routine to revert vandalism, trolling and whitewashing, the latter two being things which he himself does. It's a known fact that Snoogans is a prominent edit-warrior and a violator of WP:BATTLEGROUND. Snoogans's behavior is troubling for a patroller: it is downright disruptive and malicious. Snoogans's claim that everyone who reverts his reverts has a right-wing POV, is enough evidence to confirm POV/bias. I will admit that I am a libertarian, thus I am right-wing, and my userpage reflects this. However, I will also admit that I apply neutrality to all my edits, and my contributions confirm this. While I'm not exactly a senior/veteran editor, and much of my edits are grammar-based, my edits regarding political articles should, to any rational person, look neutral and in good-faith. So, please believe me when I say this: I don't care if Snoogans has a political leaning or has political beliefs. If he wants to support someone in the 2020 election, that's his business. His behavior is all that I'm concerned about. His behavior is rude, uncivil, unconstructive and malicious. He's confirmed his own bias and thus provided motive for his battleground behavior and edit-warring. I'm not here to enforce a POV. I'm not here to whitewash. I'm here to help make Wikipedia better and Snoogans has interfered with the goals of Wikipedia. I'm not in favor of giving Snoogans a complete topic ban, permanent or temporary, right now. His behavior is egregious, yes, but a chance should be given for him to correct his behavior and become a constructive Wikipedia editor. 1RR should be applied, the evidence is clear on that. However, a topic ban would be, as of now, excessive as mentioned above. Instead, I propose, apply 1RR for an extended period of time to Snoogans. Afterwards, if his behavior improves, then all is well. If he commits a violation of WP:CIVIL, WP:BATTLEGROUND, WP:NPOV, or any of the other violations mentioned in this incident report, at any point, then I propose that he be topic-banned from AP2 for an extended period of time, and if the former should prove fruitless, that he be topic-banned from AP2 permanently, should he engage in this behavior yet again. This kind of behavior is uncalled for, and I'm sure that many of us here just want to make Wikipedia better. When you interfere with the mission of Wikipedia, there must be consequences. Regardless of my disagreements with Snoogans, I believe that he deserves both punishment and a subsequent chance to improve. Wikipedia should expect the best of behavior from a patroller and a senior editor (let alone any editor), and if he can't exhibit that behavior, then make sure he can't antagonize others again over politics. That's all I have to say. Note: when I say "extended period of time," I'm specifically referring to six-month bans or more. --MrThunderbolt1000T (talk) 23:02, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
"Snoogans's claim that everyone who reverts his reverts has a right-wing POV". I've never claimed this. Strike it or provide evidence for this absurd accusation. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 00:13, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Clarification: I was meaning to refer to your claim that every person endorsing a 1RR towards you has a right-wing POV. It's rich of you to call my accusation "absurd" when you make absurd accusations yourself.--MrThunderbolt1000T (talk) 00:24, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
"Clarification: I was meaning to refer to your claim that every person endorsing a 1RR towards you has a right-wing POV." That's a brazen falsehood. Two brazen falsehoods in a row. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 00:48, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Not really "brazen"... you said the overwhelming majority of 'support' votes here are right-wing POV editors. Did you want to strike or provide evidence for that absurd accusation? – Levivich01:12, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Do you seriously not know that there is a difference between "every" and a "majority"? Or do you just feel compelled to side with every single person who rubs up against me regardless of the reason? Well, we already know the answer to that given that one of your examples of my 'problematic behavior' is when I stopped a neonazi sockpuppet. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 01:38, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Awilley has unilaterally given Snooganssnoogans a 1RR restriction
With no comment on the merits of any particular argument, this is simply not a valid proposal. There is no consensus to overturn the sanction, but even if there were, it would not be actionable. Pursuant to Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions#Appeals and modifications, AE appeals may only be made by the sanctioned user themselves, and may only be made in a designated venue, of which AN/I is not included. Please see the link for details. Snooganssnoogans can appeal at their leisure. Optics and constructive criticism aside, Discretionary Sanctions require no consensus, are unilateral, are customizable, and are directly authorized by Arbcom in the relevant subject areas. You may not like it, but that's literally all discretionary sanctions are. ~Swarm~{sting}02:51, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
With admittedly no consensus, Awilley has unilaterally restricted Snooganssnoogans with a custom restriction of their own design that includes both AP1 and BLPs, which weren't event discussed here. This is a ridiculous decision that subverts the will of the community and should be reversed immediately. ToaNidhiki0500:15, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Endorse action Your approval is not needed when a mountain of evidence is presented. The opinion of the community doesn't change the proven facts. --MrThunderbolt1000T (talk) 02:11, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Endorse action - not that an admin needs my endorsement..the admins do not need to get consent from the community in order to protect the project. Lightburst (talk) 00:19, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Additionally at a minimum you need to notify the admin that you started a thread here.
Just noting this was not a spur-of-the-moment decision, but a follow-through on previous warnings. I would have taken similar action on my own if I had seen the diffs provided by Levivich above outside of an AN/I thread. I waited until this closed so as to not interfere with the community process. Also note that although the scope of the sanction is wider than AP2, the sanction itself is milder than what was proposed above with special accommodations for Snoogans's work in pushing back against drive-by fringe POV pushing by socks and IPs. I'm also willing to make it more nuanced if Snoogans needs that, which is something that community-imposed sanctions don't handle very well. ~Awilley (talk)00:47, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
To me, this looks like you saw what the community decided and then decided to not only ignore it, but to expand the sanction beyond what was even considered here. I don't think it's a good look. I don't want to personally impugn your motives at all or suggest misuse of powers - this is just what it looks like to me. It doesn't seem like a good action, especially given the lengthy discussion. ToaNidhiki0500:57, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
To me, this looks like you saw what evidence was presented of Snoogans' guilt and then decided to not only ignore it, but to write something so inconsiderate of the very foundations of Wikipedia. The rules are the rules. --MrThunderbolt1000T (talk) 02:11, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
This couldn't be a more absurd accusation. I have probably clashed with Toa Nidhiki05 on more pages than I have fingers and toes, yet both of us have in common a principled stance to stop undisclosed COI accounts and sockpuppets, and both of us have experienced on-wiki and off-wiki harassment for past work in service of that goal. Maybe Toa is able to understand what it entails to patrol controversial pages, even if his politics radically differs from mine. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 02:51, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Endorse action When faced with an editor who does things like that, an administrator should be able to put restrictions on them to avoid future problems. DreamFocus00:28, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
I have a history with this editor on the Illegal immigration to the United States page where this user edit-warred debunked anti-immigrant propaganda and poorly sourced text into the article[252][253][254], as well as removed the best possible academic research on the subject (a recently published 642-page state-of-the-art literature review by the National Academy of Sciences[255]) with a false edit summary just because it failed to portray illegal immigrants in a horrible light.[256] If 1RR had been in place for me at the time, this editor might have succeeded in edit-warring the debunked anti-immigration propaganda into the article, and would have been able to remove a National Academy of Sciences report (which are often considered the gold standard lit reviews) from Wikipedia. That's relevant context. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 02:03, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Endorse action that falls within personal admin discretion (the "D" in WP:ACDS), after much discussion has occurred between the admin and the editor involved. — JFGtalk00:37, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
??? I'm generally supportive of people using a firmer hand in AP2, but I'm not sure why I bothered trudging through that clusterf*** thread to consider the options and offer input if the conversation was going to be completely disregarded. Couldn't someone at least pretend it mattered and close the discussion with a rationale? Nblundtalk01:00, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
@Nblund: The discussion had been closed with no consensus. diff I see now that close has been reverted. Based on numbers alone (26 Support to 22 Oppose as of now) "no consensus" isn't out of the question, though I'd have appreciated a more thoughtful rationale from the closer myself. Anyway I'm sorry for the invalidating feelings this caused for people participating in the discussion. ~Awilley (talk)02:13, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
I see, I appreciate that. I think that non-admin close was seriously ill advised. I'm not sure what the norms are around this stuff, but it seems like the community consensus (or lack of one) should supercede admin discretion here - given that we're all looking at the same diffs. At the very least that conversation needs a proper closure so that editors don't continue to waste time commenting on a moot point. I think other participating admins also questioned whether this sanction was warranted, so it seems arbitrary even under the standards of administrative discretion. Nblundtalk02:26, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Optics are not great. For an AE sanction in this still-ongoing AN/I case, this ought to have gone to WP:AE so that a consensus (or lack thereof) of uninvolved admins could be established with regards to any sanction proposals. El_C01:09, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
These discussions take a lot of time from a lot of people. Taking unilaterial action indifferent to all of that time/effort is... not ideal. — Rhododendritestalk \\ 01:14, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Unilaterally subverting an ongoing community discussion seems like an invitation for more drama rather than a consensus-driven outcome which the community can live with. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:31, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
The 1RR proposal had been closed as no consensus [257], which Awilley referred to in the sanctions notice [258], and I'm guessing he hadn't noticed that the discussion had been re-opened [259] prior to posting the notice. – Levivich01:50, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Support. First - full disclosure - I am the editor previously known as BattleshipGray. I recently tried to log on under that name, like I have repeatedly in the past, but was unable to do so. I changed my Username to GlassBones and was able to get back in. As forSnooganssnoogans (talk, I know that I am relatively new at this, and I don't have the time to edit Wikipedia for hours nearly every day like Snoogans, but I doubt that there is any editor more deserving of sanctions than this editor. Snoogans routinely engages in edit warring, even delighting in doing so, and operates with impunity. Further, Snoogans consistently bullies other editors to make sure their point of view prevails in articles that Snoogans chooses to edit, which are many. Snoogans routinely accuses other editors of violating rules, while at the same time violating those and other rules. Snoogans also often simple hits "undo" with little if any explanation let alone justification or consensus, then bullies any editor who tries to re-insert language Snoogans removes. This editor makes it very unpleasant for any new editor, as well as many seasoned editors, which is no doubt his motivation and means of getting what he wants. GlassBones (talk) 02:23, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
^I have a history with this editor. If you check BattleshipGray's contributions[260], you'll see an editor singularly obsessed with following me around and reverting me (I'm not exaggerating - see for yourself). This editor's obsession with reverting me includes trying to mislead readers into thinking that the Bush administration was right in saying Iraq had weapons of mass destruction[261] and pushing conspiracy theories about the DNC email hack.[262]Snooganssnoogans (talk) 02:40, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Yes, Snooganssnoogans (talk, you have a history with me. Clearly, as evidenced by your talk page, your edits, and this Administrators page, you have issues with many other editors. If so many people have an issue with you, maybe you should ask yourself - is the problem with everyone else, or is the problem with the person you see in the mirror? GlassBones (talk) 02:48, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Interesting, GlassBones. I see you did your best to insert some conservative talking points in various articles ([263]) and tried to claim that Columbia Journalism Review is not a reliable source. I hope that with your new name you also shed that foolishness, since your lack of knowledge of what RS means can lead to a topic ban from an area where this might be very relevant. I see that Doug Weller alerted you to discretionary sanctions within days after starting editing under that Battleship account, and I also see that Bishonen dropped a serious warning on the talk page of your new account. Ajwilley, you warned this editor about hounding; I'm wondering if you shouldn't consider topic-banning this editor from editing in the AP area. I don't see anything positive in their edits in that area. Drmies (talk) 02:08, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
@Drmies: It seems obvious to me that BattleshipGray isn't that person's first editing experience. Not sure whether that should be followed up on first. (SPI block, if necessary, is cleaner than a topic ban, I think.) ~Awilley (talk)22:40, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
I don't really know what to do about that right now, Awilley, but I do know this: Snoogans wouldn't be the first editor who is essentially baited into topic bans or blocks. Just look at how many times Volunteer Marek has been brought up on various charges, very often by trolls or inspired by trolls--he's fighting one off right now, an LTA--and so one thing leads to another. Our former colleague Malik Shabazz was harassed and then baited by a racist into overreacting. You take any editor in a contested topic area (I know it won't be you, but it might be me), you harass them some, tag-team them, pounce on a mistake--voila. I mean, the diffs that were proposed above to prove Snoogans was an inveterated edit warrior--they were lousy, and on closer inspection proved that Snoogan's was doing their NPOV job. The only way in which he was a disruptive POV edit warrior in the diffs I look at is if you believe all points of view are equal--which they aren't. "Both sides are equal"--yeah, no.
All this to say that the operations of socks, SPAs, and trolls can have serious repercussions. In this case, though, I do not believe we are dealing with a longtime troll or a sock--merely with someone whose agenda is obvious, who isn't here really to improve the project (look at their edits on Project Veritas) and who enjoys throwing a wrench into a process. I do not believe there is an orchestrated campaign against Snoogans, but I do believe he serves as a useful lighting rod for a whole bunch of editors who are simply not here for the right reasons, and I think Battleship/GlassBones is one of them.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Drmies (talk • contribs)
I agree GlassBones surely wasn't new when they created BattleshipGray either, Awilley. But I don't know who the master might be. The first suspect that comes to mind, User:Hidden Tempo, is stale, and it's hardly a duck case, so I'm not sure what use an SPI could be. But if they go on as before, a WP:NOTHERE block will surely not be far behind, without any need for an SPI. Currently, they seem slightly intimidated by the warnings, which is a good thing. Bishonen | talk00:38, 18 November 2019 (UTC).
It would be imprudent for me to endorse this action. Like others, I fear that this unilateral action will only serve to further inflame tensions. — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤)02:51, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Awilley now negotiating side deal with Snooganssnoogans to rescind 1RR restriction that he just imposed
Just wanted to bring to everyone's attention the discussion going on at User talk:Snooganssnoogans where Awilley is now agreeing to let Snoogans off the hook in exchange for voluntary restrictions. These restrictions of course will NOT be enforcable and lets Snoogans arbitrarily decide when the 1RR applies based on whether he considers someone to be a "regular editor". This will not solve the problem. What Awilley fails to understand is that wikipedia does not need Snooganssnoogans to be able to revert multiple times to fight vandalism. If there is legit vandalism on a page, let him report it and someone else will revert it for him. I don't see why he needs to be accomodated because he sometimes reverts legit vandalism. The unacceptable behavior will not end with voluntary restrictions.--Rusf10 (talk) 14:50, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
You can't on one hand cheer the unilateral imposition of sanctions by an admin when it suits you, and then on the other cry about unilateral changes to those sanctions by that admin when it doesn't suit you. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 14:58, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
The 1RR was proposed not as a punishment but as a way to address a problem. If the negotiations in question address that problem then those who favored the 1RR restriction, myself included, should be content. I think Awilley is going to be sensitive to the issues raised by all sides and we should assume that snoog will make a good faith effort to adhere to their agreement. Springee (talk) 15:46, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
No, Awilley is trying to negotiate a deal that I find completely unacceptable. Giving Snoogans the discretion to determine who is a "regular editor" is a joke. Snoogans routinely labels editors as "fringe" and "far-right" just because he disagrees with them (and I'm not talking just about drive-by vandals, I mean established editors). He is not capable of making that judgement. And what ever restriction we ultimately end up with needs to be enforceable or otherwise we'll just end up back here at ANI.--Rusf10 (talk) 15:55, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Voluntary restrictions are still enforcable: if you have enough evidence that Snoogans has violated the terms, you can present the evidence back to Awilley or to ANI, pointing back to the terms Snoogans agreed to, and request they turn the voluntary restrictions into enforced ones. It is a reminder that we don't pass blocks or bans to punish but as to reduce disruption, and if Snoogans is agreeing to reduce the disruption they cause by exceeding 1RR where they (and all others) shouldn't, then this is fine. They should know they are on a short leash, and can't continue past behavior. --Masem (t) 17:15, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Comment Administrators are here to protect the project and the content creators. Awilley will measure 1RR restrictions based on that criteria. If you feel that Awilley needs to be sanctioned, Swarm told you how to approach that. in addition I believe Swarm said an editor has to have "Standing" to appeal these restrictions or lack of. In other words Snooganssnoogans has standing, the rest of the editors do not. Lightburst (talk) 16:03, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
I am not looking for AWilley to be sanctioned. I just want everyone to be aware of what he is doing and how it is not going to work.--Rusf10 (talk) 16:07, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Thanks,Rusf10, for letting us know. If there is anyone who deserves to be sanctioned for battleground behavior, incivility, and bullying it is Snooganssnoogans. And it is clear from Snoog's behavior that voluntary restrictions are ineffective and not enough. I am not surprised that there are backroom deals being negotiated between Awilley and this editor; many others have been sanctioned by administrators for less, but somehow Snoog is able to operate with impunity, and given plenty of rope. For whatever reason, it seems a different standard applies to Snoog than to other editors.GlassBones (talk) 20:24, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
The problem with using AE while an AN/I discussion is ongoing (and seems like it's headed toward being closed as no consensus) is that it is a technicality that effectively serves as a suprevote. El_C17:09, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Yes. This exactly seems like a supervote considering the circumstances. Nobody is denying that admins can enforce AE actions in circumstances like this. It's more dubious whether they should. Simonm223 (talk) 17:14, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Just to point out the not-apparently-obvious: the community is free to impose (by consensus) its own restrictions and sanctions, which are not reversible by admins acting under individual authority. I don't think I want to start making suggestions about how community sanctions interact with discretionary sanctions, but it would be especially bad optics for an administrator to impose a DS that directly contradicts a preexisting community consensus. I think that is not what happened here, but I also have not been following very closely at all. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 17:33, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
It is worth pointing out that when AWilley invoked the sanctions, the discussion had been (briefly) non-admin closured as no-consensus; they couldn't have anticipated that it would be re-opened. That said, yeah, if nothing else, this shows why it may not be advisable to invoke AE in circumstances like this, even though admins definitely have the freedom to do so. Wikipedia:Arbitration_Committee/Procedures#Expectations_of_administrators states that Administrators do not need explicit consensus to enforce arbitration decisions and can always act unilaterally. However, when the case is not clear-cut they are encouraged, before acting, to seek input from their colleagues at arbitration enforcement. I would think that an WP:ANI discussion closed as a close, controversial no-consensus would be the iconic example of a situation where "the case is not clear-cut." Probably taking it to WP:AE would have been a better call. (Although I think that at some point WP:RFAR is the only reasonable endpoint, since there are underlying complex back-and-forth accusations that need to be untangled, and lots of WP:BATTLEGROUND conduct on all sides that needs to be examined. Not that I can imagine that ArbCom is particularly eager to get into AP3.) --Aquillion (talk) 18:01, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
I've said this in a couple of places already, but let me say it again here that the sanctions I imposed were not meant as a supervote or to derail a community process. It was a follow-through on previous warnings that I personally had given, and I waited until the discussion here was closed with "no consensus" before doing anything. If there had been a consensus I definitely would not have gone against that. I would also push back a bit on the implication that Arbcom would tell admins "here are some extra tools, please don't use them." The way I see it AP2 happened because the community wasn't able to resolve messy problems plaguing the topic area. Arbcom responded by delegating some of its authority, giving individual admins the explicit power to cut through gridlock. I think everybody can agree that ArbCom cases are unpleasant for everyone involved and a huge time sink. Why then would we start AP3 without first exhausting the options we currently have? One of my long-term underlying goals is to prevent AP3 by making it unnecessary. Does DS have problems? Of course. Is it too much power for individual admins? I think so. Which is why I support this (that discretionary sanctions like topic bans and edit restrictions should be able to be treated and appealed like regular blocks, able to be reversed by other individual admins). But this is probably not the best forum for discussing that kind of reform. ~Awilley (talk)19:34, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
There's a ton of diffs in this extended thread that point to other editors acting more or less as badly as the accusations against Snoogs. It's hard to understand why an Admin who's voluntarily patrolling American Politics would have given Snoogs "previous warnings" and not some of the others who appear in the diffs here. It's just going to seem more plausible to many observers that the now-aborted Awilley sanction was somehow connected with Snoogs having been the subject of this no-consensus ANI. Hence the understandable concern about a supervote.
Awilley, your comments seem to be focused on justifying your own actions, whereas the comments of others are focused on good process, transparency, and what's good for the community. SPECIFICOtalk22:20, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
To be clear (since I was the one who cited the quote implying that this might have been a case where more caution was called for), I think ArbCom absolutely wanted admins to use these tools, and definitely cutting through all the debate was something they empowered admins to do - I don't think it was that bad of a call on your part (the discussion with Snoog afterwards seemed productive; it was mostly the re-opening of the ANI thread, which you couldn't have anticipated, that caused things to collide.) But they also encouraged admins to discuss first in close or controversial situations, and if that doesn't apply here - at the bottom of a massive, heavily-disputed ANI thread - then it's hard to envision a situation where it ever would. At the very least such discussions might have avoided some of the rancorous back-and-forth after the fact (we now have two fairly large discussion sections going at you from opposite directions), and probably taking enough time to talk it over would have avoided the collision with the WP:ANI thread being re-opened. I mean, I know it's silly to suggest that you could have made everyone happy - part of the reason AE is unilateral is because sometimes that isn't possible and you just need to cut through the red tape to resolve a problem - but there was at least enough time to gauge the opinions of other admins, which would have lessened the blowback when you could point to that. --Aquillion (talk) 15:41, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
@Aquillion:, I hesitate to consume too much space here analyzing things in the past that cannot be changed, but I appreciate your thoughts and suggestions and would reply with a couple thoughts of my own. First, there are two things that I regret: 1. I should have let the dust settle on the AN/I close before doing anything. That would have avoided a lot of this. 2. I should not have expanded the scope of the 1RR, even though I reduced the severity of the sanction. If I had to do it again I would have limited my modified 1RR sanction to top-level BLPs only and left American Politics out of it. (That also would have been more consistent with the previous warnings I had given Snoogans.) On the whether I should have opened a thread at WP:AE, let me see if I can save 1000 words with a flowchart showing when I think individual admin discretion is allowed: Proposed interplay between community consensus processes and individual admin discretionary actions In a nutshell, I think the discussion above fell into the center "no consensus" area, opening it up to multiple possible paths forward. Escalating to WP:AE was (and I suppose still is) a viable option. As I said here I chose the path of unilateral action because after 3 days of contentions divisive discussion ending in stalemate, I didn't think it would be a good use of the community's time to open the same contentious divisive discussion in another forum. A fairly foundational principle in Wikipedia is that if you see a problem and can do something to resolve it, you are allowed to do so without going through a committee. Of course there are many other considerations and exceptions and a need for caution and there's a lot of room for disagreement and equally-valid alternate approaches. El_C's approach is not wrong. I apologize for the optics here being bad, and for not being more deliberate. And I'm sorry it resulted in these two extra threads. I'm not sorry that I took administrative action, though, and aside from the too-broad scope, I don't regret the specific admin actions I took, even though they annoyed people on both sides. ~Awilley (talk)22:31, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
I get what you're saying, but I feel like you left the most important part out from your flowchart (at least as far as what I was saying goes). Under what circumstances do you feel that an admin should be "encouraged before acting, to seek input from their colleagues at arbitration enforcement"? Obviously discretion applies - that's the point of the sanctions being discretionary - but it reads to me like you're saying that you would never want to seek outside input before using your discretion to impose a sanction after a no-consensus ANI outcome, because doing so will always involve taking things to another forum and protracting discussions. I can understand the desire to try for that kind of neat and tidy outcome, but because things were not clear-cut, and because you didn't seek any discussion beforehand, your efforts to not open the same contentious divisive discussion in another forum has now opened at least two separate contentious divisive discussions and had a very high chance of going to WP:AE anyway if and when discussions broke down and Snoog appealed. I feel that it was for this precise reason that ArbCom encouraged discussion before acting in unclear situations like these - I simply cannot see any reasonably-likely outcome where your unilateral actions would have resulted in less rancorous discussion than if you consulted with other administrators and got a few of them to back you first. Such discussion would probably have also addressed the problems you mentioned beforehand. --Aquillion (talk) 20:46, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
@Aquillion: I understand what you're saying as well, and I've re-read the paragraph you're quoting several times over the past few days. I can't quote you a hard-and-fast rule because, like everything on Wikipedia, it's complicated with multiple overlapping priorities with different weights. My personal guideline is to never unilaterally do anything I suspect a consensus of admins might overturn if it were put to a vote. If I'm not reasonably sure of that, I ask for advice or, more likely, simply don't do the thing. In this case I could see pretty clearly that admins had mixed feelings about the 1RR (part of why I didn't impose a straight-up 1RR). One was a solid "Meh". Another went from Neutral-ish to Oppose. Another went from Support to Neutral. A few more commented in the discussion but declined to vote. I think a lot of them recognized that the edit warring and incivility were a problem, but were also swayed by the fact that the edit warring was often against socks and trolls, and the fact that there was bad behavior "on both sides". So in this case, the priority to resolve issues cleanly at a lower level outweighed the priority of getting an explicit go-ahead from other admins. If you want to discuss further perhaps we can do it on one of our talk pages. But at this point I'm not sure that it is a good use of time to further explore what-if scenarios and speculating whether an AE thread would have been more disruptive than these two subsections. ~Awilley (talk)
Among the acceptable ways to prevent AP3 is not individual admins attempting to solve problems on their own by disrupting the formation of consensus at the dispute resolution noticeboards. DGG ( talk ) 01:56, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
I’ll echo that this looks pretty bad. There was no consensus emerging, and it looks like Awilley unilaterally attempted to enforce a sanction that wasn’t forthcoming, against community consensus. I’ll state preemptively that I actually generally agree with most of Awilley’s admin actions, but this was a monumental error in judgement that I didn’t expect. This should’ve been taken to an admin board where other administrators could weigh in, especially as it was an ANI item under discussion. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 03:45, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
"There was no consensus emerging, and it looks like Awilley unilaterally attempted to enforce a sanction that wasn’t forthcoming, against community consensus." I think the two underlined portions of that sentence are contradictory. ~Awilley (talk)22:31, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
It's true that there was no consensus for any sanction, but it's also true that there was no consensus against a sanction, either. See helpful flowchart above. – Levivich03:52, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
* Shouldn't even have got to this point. There was clearly no consensus to sanction Snoogans with a 1RR, and Awilley should just withdraw the sanction because it's clearly wrong. "I waited until the discussion here was closed with "no consensus" before doing anything" - which was then to ignore the result completely? Ridiculous. Black Kite (talk)20:10, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
While the result of a no consensus discussion about user sanctions is no sanction, I'm unconvinced that this means discretionary sanctions cannot be applied. I assume we all agree that part of the point of the regime is to allow admins to sanction an editor without community discussion to simplify things. And that the inability to challenge such a sanction via community discussion is part of this. So what happens when there is community discussion? IMO in the case where there is no consensus it's not unreasonable for an admin to take action if they feel it is justified since in that case they aren't even overriding the community, just applying a decision the community could not decide on. (I mean after all that's also when such cases may end up in arbcom.) Further, if we put aside this happened so fast, while the community will generally reject discussing sanctions against an editor within say 2 weeks of a previous discussion without something extremely substantial, it seems far more reasonable for an admin to warn an editor perhaps after the community could not come to consensus then take action if they don't heed that warning. This is one of the other advantages of discretionary sanctions. While this isn't quite what happened here, the latter stuff wasn't so far off IMO. So really even before the sanctions were reversed it was meh. If the community had come to a consensus for no sanction, perhaps the anger would be more justified. Nil Einne (talk) 10:05, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
For everyone's information, an editor has opened a related request here.
With respect to the ultimate priority of constructive editing at American Politics articles, I think the most troubling unresolved issue here is why an Admin who's actively volunteering to patrol the area, having presumably read all the diffs and considered the issues and interactions they portray, would single out Snoogansnoogans for a sanction. It's hard to separate this from the other issues regarding Arbcom's expectations of Admins in DS and regarding the apparent disregard for community process, even one as unruly as ANI. SPECIFICOtalk00:18, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
Regardless of content, allowing sole discretion and unilateral actions by a single admin appears to go against community expectations, regulations and what we elected ArbCom to do; i.e., specifically, to act as a committee which provides an extra layer of assurance that no single POV takes precedence. At what point is an admin considered involved in a topic area that is riddled with controversy and DS? I'm of the mind that when they start directing the narrative, hatting comments in an RfC, interfering in the consensus building process, taking action against an editor because they have determined at their sole discretion that it is a preventative measure to avoid a potential violation of a customized DS or based on that admins preconceived notions or biased POV. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I was under the impression that an admin action was to stop disruption, not avoid it based on preconceived notions or the use of conceptualized DS specifically designed to fit an editor's perceived personality. I'm also not finding where a single admin has ArbCom's permission to WP:HOUND or WP:HARASS editors by stalking them or taking action against them based on such customized DS, or by adding their names to a list that threatens potential action. We are talking about serious POV creep and absolute authoritarianism based on a single POV. That is not what WP is about. We don't even allow such POV creep when reviewing WP:FAC, yet we're allowing it for the enforcement of DS in highly controversial topic areas? It simply doesn't make any sense. AtsmeTalk📧16:29, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
Hi Awilley can you please clarify what the sanction was given (if any). Just so it is on record here rather than on the talk page. If i missed it above in the long long discussion, apologies in advance. Thanks! Jtbobwaysf (talk) 10:40, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
@Jtbobwaysf: The sanction I placed was a modified 1RR that had explicit exceptions for reverting IP editors and blocked users. (diff) But it was in place for less than 1 day. I withdrew it when Snoogans made this commitment that in my view mostly resolved the problem without the need for a formal sanction. So there are currently no active sanctions to my knowledge. ~Awilley (talk)20:05, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
Sanford Capital is a controversial property management company. An anonymous editor removed the name of one of the founders of the company (dif). I checked sources and reinstated the name with a citation to the Washington Post (dif). The editor posted to my talk page and then deleted the founder's name again dif. Seems like a clear cut WP:COI issue. I don't want to get into an edit war here. Any suggestions? Maybe we should protect the page to keep anons from editing? Andrew32720:58, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
(Non-administrator comment) The IP address' only edits are to that article and to Andrewman327's talk page. The IP address claims to be Pat Strauss (the co-founder) and that he is only editing the article to reflect that he left the company.
This doesn't make much sense, given that the text says that Strauss founded the company, not that he currently has a position with the company. The Washington Post citation also indeed verifies that he is a co-founder.
Whether or not the IP address is truly Pat Strauss, I concur with Andrewman327 that this is a clear case of WP:COI. The citation backs up the information presented in the article, the reason for removal is personal and WP:IDONTLIKETHATy, and the IPs concern ultimately has nothing to do with inaccuracy, alleged libel, or WP:BLP.
That being said, I'm not familiar enough with the article to have an opinion on whether or not this request from the user is reasonable - "i would like the wikipedia to reflect that i left the company in 2011, if possible". In all fairness, they only made two edits so far. So despite the blatant WP:COI, this might not be actionable as it's likely just a case of someone not understanding how Wikipedia works yet.
TL;DR: Definitely COI, probably not actionable due to their limited edit count. Their rationale for their edits also suggests that they might be willing to comply with our policies if told about them. DarkKnight214923:46, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
No action to protect the page is needed (we don't preemptively protect pages, and there's no evidence of multiple new or IP editors changing the page inappropriately.) @Andrewman327: you said the right thing on the IP's talk page in asking to keep discussion on that article's talk page. Just monitor the page and come back again if there's evidence of continual attempts to remove content without any explanation that you can't handle. If they are Strauss, and they claim to have left the company, then they'd need to supply a reliable source to prove that assertion. They can add a url to a chat on the article talk page and you can then add it. But keeping Strauss' names as a cofounder is wholly justified, based on the sources I've seen, and wouldn't be altered even if they've now left the company and have emigrated to Mars. Nick Moyes (talk) 01:28, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
@Michepman: Thanks. It's now extremely late here, but in my addle-headed state I'm not seeing activity that warrants such draconian warnings as you appear to have given them. That said, I've left a note about leaving edit summaries, as their absence makes understanding their editing motives much more difficult to determine. G'night. Nick Moyes (talk) 02:21, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
Thank you @Darkknight2149: for letting me know. To clarify since I think there has been a misunderstanding, I did not intend to remove content from the article. As you can see from the edits referenced by Michepman here I was actually adding (not removing) content from the article Sanford Capital and Karl Racine. (Indeed, it was actually another user, Nick Moyes, who removed cited content from the latter article here -- removing an edit in which I include information about Mr. Racine's successful 2018 reelection campaign. I take full responsibility for and apologize for my failure to use clear edit summaries but I do not think that it is reasonable to characterize my addition of a paragraph as being a "conflict of interest" or a "sockpuppet" and to repeatedly threaten me with hostile messages about being 'blocked' for edit warring. As noted, I did not revert the contributions of other users. Omanlured (talk) 14:04, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
Be careful Omanlured — bad faith attacks like the above as well as blatant WP:IDHT could easily earn you a short block. When you do something wrong, it’s best to just own up to it rather than pointing fingers or attempting to smear other editors. We have all been there and we have all made mistakes, and throwing a tantrum is never a good resolution. I will be scrutinizing your edits closely going forward and providing guidance to help you stay out of further trouble. Michepman (talk) 15:39, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
@Michepman: I haven't looked at Sanford Capital, but Omanlured is right about this revert by Nick Moyes; Omanlured had added Karl Racine's re-election, cited to an NYT elections result page, and then made a link more specific, but was reverted with an edit summary stating that they had removed content. I've re-reverted and covered a bare link after checking both references. So back off a little, please; you may be thinking of other edits by Omanlured, but in that instance he's correct. Yngvadottir (talk) 16:08, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
I’m on mobile right now so
This might look a little funny. But you check his vandalism of Sanford Capital you might see the type of sneaky vandalism that I was concerned about:
here he removes a large chunk of text from the article
None of these editing mistakes are that serious, but they are problematic which is why I issued a friendly warning on his talk page. His response was to flip out and make false aspersions. Michepman (talk) 16:30, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
Michepman - I admit that I made a mistake while editing in the first edit that you reference. However, if you look again at the second edit you will see that I did not remove the content again after it was reinstated; I instead simply moved a different paragraph one tab down in order to break up what I viewed as an overly long sentence. Again I concede that I should have use an edit summary, but you can tell even the diff that I did not remove any content after the very first edit (which was reverted properly by Argento Surfer). The third edit I actually did remember to use an edit summary for once, and you can see that I removed the wiki link because the person in question did not have an article (and as far as I can tell is notable only for their ownership of Sanford Capital, making it unlikely that they will ever get a separate Wikipedia page). I apologize for not making the purpose of my edits clear, but again I don't see this as sock puppeting or vandalism on my part, just an honest mistake or an honest miscommunication. 16:53, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
The IP being discussed here removed part of a sentence, and among other edits occurring prior to my revert, Omanlured removed the sentence fragment left behind by the IP. When I restored to the last good version, I assumed (and still believe) this was a good faith effort to improve the article. Argento Surfer (talk) 18:39, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
I agree with Argento Surfer. So, In an attempt to wrap things up:
I feel Michepman's description of Omanlured's edits (bullet-pointed above) as being 'sneaky vandalism' are quite unjustified, nor can I find evidence of "bad faith attacks" or "tantrums" by Omanlured's which they are - or at least seem - unfairly accused of here by Michepman. Nor do I see any evidence that they did " flip out and make false aspersions"
To quote Michepman: When you do something wrong, it’s best to just own up to it rather than pointing fingers or attempting to smear other editors."
To that end I recognise I made a stupid error in relation to one of Omanlured's edits in another article, and have apologised to them.
I need to learn from my carelessness (and maybe not stay up so late);
Michepman needs to be less accusative of other editors and not assume bad faith so readily;
Michepman and I both need to be careful not to jump to the wrong conclusions as this discourages good faith editors;
Omanlured, who has remained calm and polite throughout, is now using the 'prompt me' option in Preferences to avoid forgetting edit summaries;
Sanford Capital appears stable, and the IP editor there has not been active again, and seems to have taken onboard the advice given to them.
Nick Moyes, Omanlured, Yngvadottir -- In the spirit of collegiality and good faith im willing to accept your apologies and close the book on this issue. I'm trusting (per WP:ROPE) that the issues and potential misconduct identified here will not reoccur and if they do that they will be dealt with accordingly. With that said, I don't think there is anything left that needs to be hashed out here. Michepman (talk) 23:20, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
Oh dear, @Michepman: I was not apologising to you! I don't think anyone else was either, were they? Far from it. In fact, I was rather hoping you'd recognise that you had been partly at fault here. We all make mistakes, so I was hoping to see you acknowledging this, and perhaps recognising the value of being less accusative towards other editors at times. That way lies closure and collegiality. (And please don't pointlessly cite essays like WP:ROPE if you don't see the underlying issues.) Nick Moyes (talk) 23:42, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
I concur with Nick Moyes; Michepman, this is now going far into assumption of bad faith. I've now looked at Omanlured's edits to Sanford Capital and I find their explanation, that they were initially confused about the IP's removal but in the later edit were moving text rather than deleting it, to be satisfactory, and the assumption that they are also the IP, or colluding with the IP, to be unpersuasive. And the edit summary for unlinking the name is not "bizarre", it's a common misapprehension that red links are to be avoided, and in this instance they may well be right under WP:RED: they judged the person to be insufficiently notable to merit an article, something that can easily be fixed if an article is eventually created. I don't believe you're owed any apologies, and please stop assuming bad faith. Yngvadottir (talk) 00:42, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
I also don't believe that Omanlured was acting in bad faith. The matter looks momentarily resolved, though I would recommend keeping an eye on the page just to be safe. DarkKnight214901:08, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
Nick Moyes, Yngvadottir - Fair enough. I realize that we will probably never fully see eye to eye on this issue but again, in the spirit of collegiality I'm willing to let this matter rest as you suggested above here and on the talk page of Karl Racine. For me, securing an apology would be nice but it certainly isn't the point, the point is to resolve a dispute so that we can all move on and I think that your resolution / proposed list of points captures the situation with sufficient alacrity that I don't feel the need to continue beating a dead horse. Michepman (talk) 02:13, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
Is there a list of suspicious regexes that is automatically, or can manually be, compared against usernames (e.g. "/sock/i")? —[AlanM1(talk)]—22:45, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
Guest2625(talk·contribs·deleted contribs·page moves·block user·block log) is very keen to have material sourced to the Sunday edition of the Daily Mail used in our article on Jeffrey Epstein, who died in August. The user seems to be having difficulty with the idea that pending a really strong consensus otherwise, we don't use the Daily Mail as a source, and we also don't use tabloid journalism on articles about living or recently dead people. The consensus at talk isn't going their way but they have now made four reverts to restore the material. Their last edit summary sad "If you could please stop edit warring and use the talk page that would be great; this content has been in the article for months; other editors would like to participate in this discussion; what you are trying to say with your one word comments are not clear to other editors or readers", but I have used the talk page, as have they, and there are no one-word comments there that I can see. I'd be very grateful if someone could have a word with them and explain our policies to them. Pinging @Drmies: who I know watches the article. --The Huhsz (talk) 12:19, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
Thank you guys for your interest in the Jeffrey Epstein article. The more editors available to work on it the better the article will be. If you guys could provide me a link to the board where I should go to discuss whether the Mail on Sunday is included in the ban of the Daily Mail that would be useful. Also, I would like to find out, if there is a ban on the Mail on Sunday, what the full details and extent of the ban is and whether such a ban is wise policy.
Secondly, I would appreciate it if the editor The Huhsz interacted with me in a more friendly and non-disparaging fashion. This is in specific regards to the following comment on the Jefferey Epstein talk page which the editor added:
"As this source breaches both, it would need an extraordinarily powerful reason to be used. A mention on Reddit isn't a reason, and neither is it being the first biographical sketch about the subject."
Nowhere on the talk page do I mention anything about Reddit. This reference to Reddit is meant to associate my comments to a non-serious website and thus to disparage my argument. As a sign of could faith I would appreciate it if the editor struck this non sequitur comment to Reddit.
For clarity I have included the two deleted references and content which are currently in dispute below. The first reference is a very important reference since it is the first detailed biographical sketch of Jeffrey Epstein (1992) in the printed press. Here is an electronic copy of that article, which I am providing as a courtesy to other editors, who might not have access to the article at the moment.
First reference:
[ref name=":21"]Robotham, Michael (November 15, 1992). "The Mystery of Ghislaine Maxwell's Secret Love". Mail on Sunday. One outrageous story links him to the CIA and Mossad. Another that Epstein was a concert pianist. Yet another that he was a maths teacher at an exclusive girls school...'He told me he was a spy hired by corporations to find major amounts of money which had been embezzled,' she says. 'He made it sound very exciting and glamorous...'[/ref]
Second reference and content:
[ref name=":18"]Clarke, Jon (April 9, 2000). "The Strange Friendship Between Andrew and Maxwell's Girl which has so upset Fergie – As the Prince squires a new love, Emma Gibb, has he fallen under the spell of the disgraced tycoon's matchmaking daughter-in-law ?". Mail on Sunday. London (UK).[/ref]
A porter who worked next door to Epstein's house on the Upper East Side of Manhattan in 2000 stated to The Mail on Sunday in reference to people coming and going from Epstein's house that "I often see Donald Trump and there are loads of models coming and going, mostly at night. It's amazing he's got so many ladies, as Mr Epstein, and always has a new one on his arm, it seems."[ref name=":18" /]
I cannot say that you’re joking in offering those as sources; I can only say that I hope you’re joking. EEng09:32, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
No. I'm not joking in discussing the merits of those two sources. Do you believe that either of the writers of those articles is lying about the content of their articles? Do you believe that Michael Robotham in the first article made up the fact that he had sources that said what he quoted? Do you believe that Jon Clarke made up the fact that he spoke to a porter and that the porter stated what the journalist attributed to him? These are the questions that need to be discussed when discussing the reliability of a source, not bureaucratic blanket bans which I don't even know is the case for the Mail on Sunday. So if someone could provide me a link to a board where I can discuss the policy position concerning the Mail on Sunday that would be appreciated. --Guest2625 (talk) 10:59, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
As far as I am aware the Mail on Sunday was not included in WP:DAILYMAIL. They have the same owners, but IIRC have different editors and staff. Personally I would have included it as well, despite it not being as appalling as the DM, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't - unless anyone knows different? Black Kite (talk)11:22, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
If there isn't a policy or guideline that explicitly prohibits this source, then isn't this essentially a content dispute that should be hashed out by the involved editors on the talk page of the related article and/or dispute resolution processes like WP:RFC? The general rule of WP:BRD should apply here, and if one person disagrees with the other editors at that page, they should look into WP:Dispute resolution rather than edit warring to include the material or relitigating the ban on Daily Mail Omanlured (talk) 15:55, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
That's good advice, Omanlured. The WP:DAILYMAIL language specifies (including its online version, dailymail.co.uk); as the content of https://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/ appears to be a mirror of dailymail.co.uk, I think that puts it into the frame. I also agree with EEng that these are canonically awful sources to use in an encyclopedia article, whether we had this ban or not. Luckily we do. --The Huhsz (talk) 16:50, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
Yes, they are both terrible sources, but I believe that mailonsunday.co.uk redirects to the content (but not the banner) of dailymail.co.uk during the weekdays. The print versions are different. Regardless, if the only source we have for something contentious is the Mail on Sunday ... then it's fairly obvious we shouldn't be using it. Black Kite (talk)19:11, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
The apparent position of the above editors is that the Mail on Sunday is not the same publication as the Daily Mail and that it has its own editorial board. Therefore, the ban of the Daily Mail does not apply. If someone wishes to have a discussion of the policy concerning the Daily Mail, I'm willing to go to a board where editors who have dealt with topic can discuss the extent and wisdom of this ban. As I have stated before there is a content dispute as concerns the article of Jeffrey Epstein.
Editor The Huhz's good faith content removal stating wp:dailymail does not apply and was done in error. The content that was removed had been in the article for nearly half a year and had consensus. Standard policy is that if an individual wants to change an article they should first gain consensus on the talk page. The stable version per standard policy should be restored, while there is a discussion of the modification that the editor The Huhz's wishes to make.
Similarly, a subsequent editor who also removed the content with the one word wp:dailymail made a good faith edit modification in error which does not stand.
As an aside: The reason I am interested in retaining the supposedly shocking references is that the first reference, as I stated, is a foundational source. It is the first detailed biographical sketch of Jeffrey Epstein (1992) in the printed press. The next seminal biographies are Ward, Vicky (June 27, 2011). "The Talented Mr. Epstein". Vanity Fair. and Thomas Jr., Landon (October 28, 2002). "Jeffrey Epstein: International Moneyman of Mystery". {{cite magazine}}: Cite magazine requires |magazine= (help) These subsequent biographies nicely dovetail with this early 1992 biography. There is a relative information void from 1981–1986 in Jeffrey Epstein's life. It does not benefit anybody, reader or writer, by excluding journalistic material which helps to detail this period and other early periods. I look forward to having a discussion on this topic on the Jeffrey Epstein talk page which is fair and follows standard procedure. --Guest2625 (talk) 04:51, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
I have placed the question of whether the blanket ban of WP:Dailymail applies to the Mail on Sundayhere on the reliable source board. I think that is the right place, but I'm not sure. An editor on the Jeffery Epstein talk page told me being on this board was the wrong place for my policy question. --Guest2625 (talk) 10:47, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
The Daily Mail doesn't have a "Sunday edition". The Mail on Sunday is a different paper. They share a lot, but they (significantly) don't share editorship. They also regularly take quite different political standpoints, and on major topics. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:34, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for all the input. I'm still a little concerned about this; Guest2625 seems to have the impression that this is a bureaucratic process, and that "I can be bold and place the article in the correct state, while we discuss the content change desired, ..." and that "the right to be bold or to continue this procedural discussion will remain until there is a final vote". Consensus in article talk is running against including or restoring the poorly sourced sleaze and indeed there is probably a lot more needing to come out that is equally poor. I just removed a bunch of Daily Beast references including an egregious BLP violation. I worry that Guest2625 isn't clear that he shouldn't restore any of this stuff. I personally have little interest in the subject or the article, and intend to take it off my watchlist, but I was rather surprised to see so much poorly sourced material about such a high-profile recent death, with implications for living people and the subject of ongoing legal action. It'd be great if others could continue to keep an eye on this. --The Huhsz (talk) 23:21, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
Hi Guy. I've been editing for a while, however, have never worked on an article that has this editing restriction. It appears to be WP:BRD, which appears to mean be bold, revert if justified, and then discuss. This is the general informal rule that most of us editors follow. If I make a procedural error, just let me know and I'll correct the error or you can correct it if you wish. --Guest2625 (talk) 02:46, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
That's what I thought I read somewhere. But I'm sure Guy will be able to guide me through these intricate procedures. He seems like a capable and fair editor. --Guest2625 (talk) 19:45, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
There’s a little bit of confusion due to a move of the article pages (and archives). DannyS712 has given the new locations of the archives. I’ve taken the opportunity to do a little tidying up to point the bot (next time it functions) toward the new location and to add a link to Archive 3 to the index on the article talk page. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 08:18, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
IP mass tagging notable mostly women scientists for notability
I suspected it to be a school project. A shocking number of students insert copyright violations, even at the college level. — Diannaa🍁 (talk) 14:29, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
Berean Hunter has protected the page for a week. We should watch-list as well for a while. Thank you for the report.— Diannaa🍁 (talk) 14:42, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
TheSandDoctor created the account, ITMr4thQuarter for ACC request #283509. maybe he can shed some light on this. From a checkuser perspective, the accounts are editing from many different ranges so it may be online course work. Accounts aren't congregated together as we usually see classes. If this is a class then one of the students should have their instructor contact us and go to the Education noticeboard for assistance. — Berean Hunter(talk)15:14, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
@Berean Hunter: I didn't see an issue or anything needing checkuser and not a username violation so processed the request as normal. No article was identified as any target at ACC nor did they seem malicious....I didn't see any reason to decline. If I missed something, my apologies. --TheSandDoctorTalk15:37, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
@Berean Hunter: I thought you had ACC access as a CU (might be something to consider if not?). I have to be careful what I share here, but the direct answer would be "yes." Based on message the request seemed reasonable and I processed as normal. I really can't elaborate much further on the content (I don't want to accidentally violate the Privacy Policy) and would defer to Oshwah if he (or another ACC admin) believes more can be shared if needed and where. --TheSandDoctorTalk16:23, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
Well, the lead includes the sentence "It is often regarded as the use of technology for social." which I am incapable of understanding, and the article is very, very, very long and it includes 251 references. It is too much work for me to figure out just how bad it is, so I have to trust your assessment, Drmies. Cullen328Let's discuss it02:43, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
I thought that must have been inserted by some well-meaning non native speaker of English (who wanted to say that it is using technology to socialise) since the source says no such thing, but in fact there was this edit a week ago that changed the sourced text into something that is neither comprehensible nor what the source says... --bonadeacontributionstalk08:05, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
After reading through it, Cullen328, it appears to be an essay on digital communications. It's not really Wikipedia worthy IMHO; it's not just that it's badly written from a prose standpoint, but it is really just a collection of topics that are only loosely related. I'd say that it's mostly WP:Original Research and WP:Synth material, and it's unlikely that it would be salvagable even if you or someone else dedicated a lot of time to it. In short, it's a research paper not an article. Michepman (talk) 03:41, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
In case some here haven't noticed it looks like this has basically been going on every year since 2009 or maybe earlier. Nowadays generally near the end of the year. Nil Einne (talk) 05:37, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
BTW, I'm seeing a strong connection to Philippines with some of those edits, including an accidental logged out edit. I also saw some other weird IPs which may or may not be connected but aren't the Philippines. Also back in 2016 and 2017, some accounts had UP or UPOU in their usernames. UPOU could refer to University of the Philippines Open University who have a ICT4D course [264]. There is no mention of editing wikipedia as part of it there, but no mention of assignments or assessment. (Edit: Just noticed the CU stuff, which also concurs with my UPOU belief.) Nil Einne (talk) 06:23, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
Maybe some coder could write a bot that spews out strings of random business management buzzwords and jargon. Then search for and flag any Wikipedia articles that pop up. Cullen328Let's discuss it07:53, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
The IP, which based on their editing and the history of the article has an obvious COI, has for the past 18 months repeatedly rewritten/whitewashed Jai Prakash Menon (an article that was created by a COI-editor ten years ago, and has been regularly "maintained" by IPs and throw-away accounts ever since) by removing a well sourced controversy, removing a COI-template, and turning the article into a promo piece for Menon (sample edit: [266]), without contributing to en-WP in any other way, so I feel it's time for a looong block... - Tom | Thomas.W talk16:49, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
User:Adithya Shankaran is doing disruptive editing like removal of maintenance templates from Tejasvi Surya without explaining. I visited their talk page and found lots of warnings about their behaviour of blanking and addition of unsourced content in multiple pages. Definitely WP:NOTHERE Deserves strong warning or temporary block from the Administrator. --Harshil want to talk?06:08, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
I did check the talk page. There is one warning for blanking, about nine months ago. There is one for adding unsourced content, about 4 months ago, and two more for adding unsourced content, about a month ago. No further warnings in over a month until yours. I also checked the last few edits by Adithya Shankaran. All seemed productive except for the template removal. This doesn't seem like an editor who is NOTHERE to me, which is why I asked if you knew of further continuing disruption, Harshil169. By that I mean within the past few days, or at most since the previous warning a month ago. DES(talk)DESiegel Contribs12:27, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
What I am slightly confused about is that the copyvio template which the user removed referred to material that was actually added by Harshil169. So either it is a copyvio (in which case Harshil169 could just remove the offending text and the template), or it isn't, in which case the template should be removed anyway. Black Kite (talk)14:09, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
Actually, WP:copyvio material should be WP:revdeleted per policy so it's correct to the keep the template there until this was carried out. I'm surprised it took so long [267][268] but I guess this is reflective of the fact copyvio is a complicated area and only a few admins are involved in it. And while the copyvio template should never be removed without the concerns being properly addressed, it does seem a little rich to complain so much about a template which was only there because of your mistake. As for the other templates, well I don't think they should have been removed without comment especially since there was discussion about them on the talk page. So it's not like it's a dispute where neither side provided a rationale. But I agree with DES that the history here seems way to limited to bring to ANI. Just trying talking to them a bit more. (I don't mean templates.) Nil Einne (talk) 15:03, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
I have done the RevDel and removed the template, by the way. Copyright RevDel requests are often significantly more complex than speedy deletion requests for Copyvios, and those in turn are sometimes rather more complex than A7 or G11 speedies. But only an admin can do a revdel, so only an admin should remove the template, unless another editor has checked and is convinced with good reason that there is no copyvio content in the history, in which case that should be stated clearly in the summary. DES(talk)DESiegel Contribs15:35, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
Yes thanks for that. I meant to but forgot to mention this, but feel it's worth pointing out so others don't feel this is just pointless compliance. Policy aside, remember that one reason we revdeleted copyvios is so that well meaning editors don't accidentally reintroduce the material. There are also other reasons obviously Nil Einne (talk) 04:23, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The article lede omits the crucial information that there is no uniform concensus on the start date for this cohort. The most significant authority on the subject (The Strauss-Howe book, citing 1960/61) has been relegated to a secondary source, when it is in fact a primary source. I have suggested that the two 1961 and 1965 start date hypotheses be mentioned in the lede, to no avail. Despite providing solid sources, I have met a brick wall of proprietary stubbornness.
Sources cited supporting the 1965+ hypothesis are weak (Bloomberg) and often conflicting (the LA Times reference, for example is used to defend the 1965 date, when it actually quotes 1961). There are many other examples of outdated, frivolous or irrelevant sources in the article. Worst of all, the Strauss-Howe conjecture is so far down the article as to be almost a footnote.
I accept that there are two differing views, but a quick look at the Gen X talk page (particularly the section under Oxford and Cambridge) will reveal what I am up against with this single individual.
Can I suggest that the lack of concensus be mentioned in the lede? To bluntly define the Gen X start date as 1965 is factually incorrect, at least partially.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Winged Blades of Godric and Serial Number 54129 are making article like POVfork and removing necessary justifications from the subject. In one click, they reverted my more than 10 edits in which I fixed infobox, added justifications from source, used Indian English template, removed satirical piece, presented status of company, compiled over citations in one place and added details about founders. But they removed all of this in single click in this revert. Like, this article uses to label that site has failed fact checking test and also includes side from founders of website. This version is quite negative, 2 out of 5 lines are negative and includes no justification while this version is inclusive and balanced and can be edited. I have clearly mentioned my proposed changes before 12 hours, submitted my version for neutrality check at WP:NPOVN and no specific rebuttal of my changes have been given except summaries like bloat, last good and cruft. I already used talk page, none of them are discussing issue on talk page and SN54129 is removing my templates by labeling as bad faith, giving me warnings on t/p instead of discussing what lacks in article. --Harshil want to talk?10:40, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
@Harshil169:, your habit of coming here with content disputes is becoming tendentious. You made some additions to the article in good faith. Other editors disagreed with those additions, also in good faith. The thing to do then is not to edit-war your additions back in, but to wait until consensus is reached in the talk page discussion. This takes days or weeks, not minutes. Phil Bridger (talk) 10:52, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
@Phil Bridger: please note that users are assuming bad faith rather to discuss. this, this and this. My most of the edits are sourced and includes both sides. @Vanamonde93: had written message long ago before my changes and Winged never review my changes and user SN54219 is accusing me for harassment. --Harshil want to talk?10:57, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
Massimo Introvigne is an Italian attorney and member of a New Religious movement called Alleanza Cattolica. In 1988, Introvigne created an organization called CESNUR to lobby for the legitimacy of New Religious Movements such as Scientology.
Aidayoung (talk·contribs) has inserted and re-inserted Introvigne's material while repeatedly deleting well-sourced material critical of Introvigne. Aidayoung has used misleading edit summaries, has misrepresented a source, and their total editing history suggests an Introvigne-related conflict of interest. Recent examples of problem behavior:
Content removed by User:Drmies: "there is no good reason to take "Introvigne 2018a" seriously" & "FRINGE stuff needs to be supported by reliable, independent sources"
Additionally, User:Aidayoung may have a conflict of interest. Second and third articles edited were Massimo Introvigne and CESNUR. History shows widespread promotion of Introvigne's material across multiple articles. First denial of being Introvigne occurred in 2017. COI concerns again resurfaced in 2019:
"you included, show very strong ties between Massimo Introvigne, CESNUR and Oleg Maltsev, and between certain editors here, you included, and those three. As for you, you created the article about Oleg Maltsev, and have continued to maintain it, including through adding ever more badly sourced promotional material, and reverting attempts to clean it up, and even though you didn't create the articles about CESNUR and Introvigne, you made the first edits on those articles in 2007, and are still active on them (on multiple language versions of Wikipedia), including by removing material you see as criticising the subjects of the articles; the majority of your other edits here also appear to be on articles with a connection to Introvigne and CESNUR, most recently plugging CESNUR's "Bitter Winter" on multiple language versions of Wikipedia. Making it look as if you work for Introvigne/CESNUR."(per Thomas.W)
Feoffer should answer substantive questions raised in the CESNUR talk page eg did CESNUR defend the Solar Temple or New Acropolis, was Mr Lewis ever associated with CESNUR rather than shooting the messenger. I am obviously a scholar of new religions and for all of us CESNUR is an obvious main reference - the rest is innuendo. Aidayoung (talk) 14:16, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
There are strong connections between the report above and this previous discussion here on WP:ANI, the long discussion about sources on Talk:Oleg Maltsev (psychologist) (which clearly shows that Aidayoung either doesn't understand sourcing at all, in spite of having edited here since 2007, or is deliberately trying to mislead...) and multiple discussions on User talk:Aidayoung. - Tom | Thomas.W talk16:43, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
As I said elsewhere, something is going on here, but I don't know what. After months of inactivity, Aidayoung started editing Talk:Eric Roux minutes after notability issues were raised. I asked how they found this article, but never got a response. This editor seems to think that being "obviously a scholar", or having edited "hundreds" of articles on new religious movements, is relevant to improving articles... but any questions about this, or attempt to discuss COI or SOCK, are deflected as "innuendo" or "baseless accusations".
It's reasonable for this editor to be concerned with privacy issues here, but they are still accountable for their actions. This behavior cannot be dismissed as a coincidence. This editor is a SPA who has no qualms about calling CESNUR-affiliated academics "luminaries" and similar, or padding-out CESNUR, Bitter Winter, and related with tedious editorializing, promotional minutia, and peacock words. This version of Bitter Winter seems like a good example. Grayfell (talk) 03:43, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
I don’t know how one can prove a negative: how can I prove I am NOT one of the CESNUR’s directors? But this discussion is welcome as administrators should solve issues like this, and perhaps even convert “enemies” into friends or at least favor a honest dialogue. Let me be a little bit more analytical.
1. Oleg Maltsev. I wouldn’t start a war of religion about this (Oleg Maltsev’s Applied Science Association is just one among dozens of new religious movements I took an interest on, and a minor one) but I would like an administrator to look at the initial article I wrote and the article as it is now and decide which is more understandable. It is not that Maltsev is not controversial. He is. I included a part on the controversies. Now all the discussion on the controversies is in the lead. It reads: “Exponents of the anti-cult movement in Russia and Ukraine have criticized his association as a cult.[3][4][5][6]”. There is a problem here with references 3, 4, 5, and 6. None refers to Maltsev or his organization. They have been copied and pasted from the article on CESNUR and refer to controversies which happened years before Maltsev even founded his movement. These references are simply wrong as they have nothing to do with Maltsev. Also, why Maltsev is accused of being a “cult leader” is now unclear, since all the parts about its idiosyncratic, controversial theories on religion have been eliminated, with the argument that sources were not authoritative enough. This may well be, but as a result I find the article difficult to understand and not explaining to the readers why, exactly, Maltsev is accused of operating a cult. As I mentioned, I do not have strong feelings about this particular article (even if nobody likes having her work simply cancelled) and look forward to the administrators’ assessment with interest.
2. Bitter Winter. If one looks at my editing and entries I created, it appears as obvious that I am interested in religion in Eastern Asia (much more than CESNUR, which deals mostly with Western groups) I would invite the administrators to google ”Bitter Winter” and see how, despite having been founded in 2018 only, it is used as a source by many mainline media. For scholars of religious liberty issues, the most important document published yearly is the annual report of the U.S. State Department. I would respectfully suggest that administrators download the 2019 chapter on China at [269]. They will notice that Bitter Winter is the most quoted publication in the chapter on China of the report. It is mentioned 15 times. A distant second, The New York Times is quoted 7 times. If Bitter Winter is a source authoritative enough for the US State Department, perhaps it deserves entries in Wikipedia, in the different languages in which it is published. I am aware that some regard it as pro-US and anti-China and in fact I had indicated it in my original entry. IMHO the problem is not whether one agrees or disagrees with Bitter Winter, it is whether it is well-known enough to be encyclopedic.
3. Entry on CESNUR.
a. Gallagher. He wrote the introduction to an edited book where Introvigne contributed a chapter. Usually in these introductions the general editor does not only summarize the chapters but adds his or her own opinions. Maybe I should have clarified this but calling my reference to Gallagher fraudulent is grossly exaggerated.
b. The same people who regard a peer-reviewed journal like The Journal of CESNUR [270] (possibile objection: the Journal is not Elsevier-indexed; answer: the lengthy indexing process only starts two year after a Journal has started being published, and The Journal of CESNUR was launched at the end of 2019), under the responsibility of a board including some of the most well-know names in the field of the study of new religions [271] - yes, Eileen Barker and Gordon Melton are “luminaries” in the study of religious movements and Antoine Faivre is a “luminary” in the study of esotericism, which does not mean that everybody agrees with them - as a source to be deleted from Wikipedia, the go on and quote liberally articles published in 1997 and 1998 (more than twenty years ago) by the French Communist newspaper L’Humanité and the Dutch left-wing newspaper De Groene Amsterdamer in the middle of a heated political controversy about cults, as if they were the Gospel. They become key references in the article. In the CESNUR article, the article by L’Humanité is quoted twice, including in the lead. Accusing CESNUR of defending the Order of the Solar Temple, a criminal group, is a very serious accusation. In the current version, we read that CESNUR scholars have “defended... the Order of the Solar Temple (responsible for 74 deaths in mass murder-suicide),[1][2][3][4]“. CESNUR was accused of having “defended” the Order of the Solar Temple is the articles in L’Humanité and De Groene Amsterdammer. The third article, by the Swiss Broadcasting Corporation, does not mention CESNUR at all. As far asI know, the fact that an accusation has been published in a newspaper, the more so a marginal one, is not enough to accept its as a source in Wikipedia. Neither L’Humanité nor De Groene Amsterdamer offered anything as evidence for this very serious accusation. The only main article on the Solar Temple I could find published by CESNUR scholars, in a book edited by Cambridge University Press [272], does not “defend” the Solar Temple in any way and indeed deprecates its criminal activities. In the talk page, Feoffer added a quote from “Trouw”, an Evangelical Dutch magazine which intervened in the 1997 Amsterdam conference controversy (see below) to the effect that “After the second wave of suicide by members of the Solar Temple, in Cheiry, Switzerland, in 1995, Introvigne declared that they had acted on their own initiative.” Apart from the factual mistake, as the second wave of suicides occurred in France and not in Switzerland, if one reads the Cambridge UP article by Introvigne and Mayer one understands what “acted on their own initiative” means. Introvigne and Mayer dismissed the conspiracy theories that the suicides were really homicides organized by French or other secret services. Stating that the suicides came from the “own initiative” of those who committed suicide rather than from some obscure conspiracy is not a “defense” of the Solar Temple.
c. The Groene Amsterdamer and Trouw are the only sources arguing that CESNUR “defended” New Acropolis. Indeed, De Groene Amsterdamer published its article before the CESNUR conference on 1997 in Amsterdam and discovered (to its credit) that one communication, on New Acropolis, indicated in the program would have been presented by a lady who, although having a Ph.D., was also a member of New Acropolis. An Evangelical Dutch magazine, Trouw, is also mentioned. New Acropolis is fiercely anti-Christian and Trouw was obviously happy to pick up a fight with New Acropolis and, by implication, CESNUR, When Trouw however wrote (criticizing CESNUR for the incident), it also duly noted that the participation of this lady to the conference has been “cancelled” once her affiliation was revealed. De Groene Amsterdamer also mentioned a study of ex-members of New Acropolis by CESNUR director Massimo Introvigne later published by Nova Religio. For those subscribing to JSTor the article is available at [273]. Apart from having passed the peer review of a very respected journal, the article represented different attitudes of ex-members of New Acropolis through a survey, which is different from “defending” New Acropolis. My frank impression is that dropping in the lead the names of movements accused of serious crimes is simply a way to slander.
It is also the case that, as detailed in its Web site, CESNUR has organized more than thirty yearly conferences with more than 3,000 communications. IMHO, it may be interesting to mention the controversy about one single lecture, which was announced but not presented, but the emphasis on this incident is undue.
d. The Aum Shinrikyo incident. I agree it is embarrassing for the scholars involved. But I wonder whether it belongs to an entry on CESNUR, as CESNUR was not involved and the incident was mentioned in passing in a speech by Introvigne at a CESNUR conference (presented as a speech “on” the report while it just “mentions” the report: [274]. Even in its present version, the CESNUR Wikipedia entry gives the impression that in the speech Introvigne defended the report, and accepted the thesis that Aum was innocent. This is false. Here is what Introvigne said: “ A case in point is the much maligned field trip to Japan in April 1995 by a team of American experts to investigate Aum Shinrikyo after the gas attack of 20 March 1995. Their plane tickets and hotel accommodations were paid for by Aum Shinrikyo, although they received no honoraria. One scholar initially concluded that Aum Shinrikyo was being framed. Most of its leaders, he suggested, had no responsibility in the gas attack and the other crimes of which they were accused[12]. The other scholar soon prepared a paper (read in absentia at the yearly conference of CESNUR held at the University of Rome on 10-12 May 1995), in which he suggested that Aum's top leaders were not only guilty of the gas attack, but probably also part of a much larger criminal scheme, involving dealing in drugs and consorting with local organized crime. Both scholars concurred in denouncing human rights violations against hundreds of members of Aum who, unlike the leaders, were certainly neither guilty nor aware of any criminal activity. Otherwise, however, their analyses were quite different. Often cited by anti-cultists in the European debate as the ultimate evidence that scholars are hired guns for the cults, this Japanese experience proves in fact quite the opposite. The fact that two scholars, both with return tickets to Japan paid for by Aum, reached opposite conclusions on Aum's involvement in terrorist and criminal activities is strong evidence that funding from the movements may influence but does not necessarily control the results of research.”
I believe we finally agree that Professor Lewis was never a member of CESNUR.
In the talk page I was not the only one questioning whether this discussion belongs in an article about CESNUR. The trip was not sponsored by CESNUR. One CESNUR board member, J. Gordon Melton, did participate in the trip but not on behalf of CESNUR. Reader’s critical article quoted does not mention CESNUR at all. These incidents belong to the entries on Melton and Lewis rather than CESNUR.
4. Entry on Massimo Introvigne. I do not want to waste the administrator’s time but here again it is difficult not to see a consistent effort to downplay the positive sources (be they The New York Times) and emphasize obscure sources if they are negative.
5. Eric Roux. I know Eric Roux is a Scientologist but his book on Scientology is reasonably good and has had positive independent reviews. I expressed the opinion that he is noteworthy enough to have a Wikipedia entry.
6. As some critics of the so-called “pro-cult” attitude of (most) scholars of new religious movements see any positive references to CESNUR, Gordon Melton, Eileen Barker, Massimo Introvigne or even Bitter Winter as propaganda, those with a different opinion may see their systematic use of obscure sources to denigrate the same scholars and organizations as counter-propaganda. Here is precisely where administrators may come in and restore some balance.
7. I have multiple interests in life and do not edit every day nor even every month. I did not know this was a crime. I edit mostly on religion, particularly Asian. The claim that I only edit articles connected with Massimo Introvigne and CESNUR may be easily disproved by reading at my editing history, although in recent weeks I had to spend time in contesting what I see as a malicious campaign to present some serious scholars and organizations as if they were a bunch of criminals.
^Cite error: The named reference kwaad was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
Can't speak to the Maltsev or Roux issues, but Aidayoung's arguments on CESNUR boil down to the claim that the reliable sources are just plain wrong and shouldn't be saying what they're saying.
I can, however, rebut Aida's final point about having generic interest in Asian religion. Nearly all of Aidayoung's edits are to articles linked to Introvigne or his publications. While a quick glance at their editing history might initially suggest a general interest in Asian religion, if you look closely, you'll find that the attorney-turned-lobbyist Introvigne is almost invariably mentioned in the articles, if not in the text then in the citations.
This pattern of promotion holds over a period of twelve years, and tracks with Introvigne's own relatively-recent focus on Asia beginning in the mid-to-late '10s. Aidayoung's edits to Asian religions similarly only begin in 2017, a full decade after Aida's first edits to Introvigne/CESNUR. This strongly suggests Aidayoung's campaign of promotion is not independent of Introvigne. Feoffer (talk) 15:09, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
The discussion on Talk:Oleg Maltsev (psychologist) that I mentioned in my post above was also all about Massimo Introvigne, and a pure promo-piece about his friend Oleg Maltsev, sourced only to Maltsev himself, that was used as source for just about everything in that article, and that Aidayoung stubbornly insisted on re-adding, claiming that it was a reliable source since it was written by a professor and published on what she claimed is "a peer-reviewed encyclopaedia published by a reputable university", but in reality is none of that, since it's a project started by an individual at that university, and not peer-reviewed at all. - Tom | Thomas.W talk16:34, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
comment I share several of the WP:COI concerns voiced above. @Aidayoung:Bitter Winteris a CESNUR publication and your edits are clearly all related to that group in one way or another. It's not against the rules to have a narrow topic interest, but this is a niche academic discipline and your edits are overwhelmingly dedicated to promoting it. Even if you have no professional conflict of interest, your behavior is mostly indistinguishable from that of a WP:COI editor and it needs to be addressed.
Some of this may be solved by having a centralized discussion about the reliability of CESNUR at WP:RSN. If editors agree (and I suspect they will) that CESNUR is a poor source for establishing notability and a weak source for facts, then it should be much more straightfoward to address the content issues being discussed here. Nblundtalk23:05, 13 November 2019 (UTC)
Aidayoung has asked us to look at their contributions, so I did. Looking at Commons:Special:Contributions/Aidayoung, Aidayoung has has first-hand familiarity with these people and subjects, as they have uploaded several "own work" photos used over the years. As with most of their edits, these photos are used for articles which have disproportionately cited Introvigne.
As just one example, about a third of the footnotes for Victory Altar (which was created in November 2017) cite this article by Introvigne. The photos uploaded by Aidayoung are the exact same photos used by Introvigne in the source, which was posted a few days before the Wikipedia article was created. By uploading these photos, Aidayoung is saying that they own the copyright to photos which had previously been used by Introvigne.
Weixinism shows the same pattern of image use, and Bnei Baruch and Oleg Maltsev (psychologist) were both similarly lopsided in how they cited sources. This behavior strongly suggests that, at minimum, Aidayoung has been working very closely with Introvigne on multiple projects. If not, they should explain this discrepancy, briefly, for WP:COPYVIO reasons, if nothing else. Grayfell (talk) 02:12, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
an undated interview, Introvigne writes (via google translate, original Italian in link):
"The Wikipedia pages in English "Massimo Introvigne" and "CESNUR" have been attacked by autonomous users and pseudonyms that Wikipedia administrators have readily identified and banned. Unfortunately they did the same with the "Massimo Introvigne" page in Russian and there it seems that the administrators are less ready to react. The interventions on Wikipedia leave traces and it is therefore possible to know that at least some of these that in wikipedian jargon are called acts of vandalism started from computers of people and locations linked to the Russian anti-cult movement and in particular to Alexander Dvorkin, who is deputy - President of the European anti-cult coordination organization FECRIS and for about twenty years has been conducting a campaign of insults against CESNUR and myself ... not very effective, since we are still here and indeed we are certainly more active than twenty years ago.
This demonstrates conclusively that Introvigne does have a _very_ active familiarity with very same two articles that Aidayoung has actively edited, beginning 12 years ago. Introvigne's comments above seem to precisely mirror Aidayoung's comments about allegedly-Russian vandalism of Introvigne and CESNUR articles. Based on this last diff, for the first time it is reasonable to believe we actually may be dealing with Introvigne himself, rather than just someone in his sprawling network with a COI.
What's even more conclusive, however, is Grayfell's above observation that Aidayoung uploaded (as OWN WORK) photos previously published by Introvigne. Feoffer (talk) 08:08, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
I note that most of those who have commented here have also edited in an “anti-cult” sense previous entries. Nothing wrong about it but they have their own agenda. The point is that academic literature on new religious movements in general very often cites Introvigne and CESNUR. it would be very bad editing to write about new religious movements and ignore articles and books written by Introvigne or other CESNUR authors only because some here happens not to like them. On pictures, these are simply pictures provided by new religious movements to those who ask to illustrate sympathetic studies of them. Some of mine have been canceled for copyright issues and I have presented others as my own with the consent of the religious movements concerned to make the copyright approval process simpler. Administrators should simply look at CESNUR Web pages including encyclopedia at CESNUR.com, journal at CESNUR.net and Website at CESNUR.org, plus programs of its conferences to decide whether or not it is a well-known organization and authoritative source in the field of new religious movements, and at the WRSP encyclopedia at https://wrldrels.org/ to decide whether it is a fringe project by a lonely professor or a cooperative enterprise involving hundreds of respected scholars. I note that substantive questions about the editing on the contested entries have not been answered, despite offers to engage in a dialogue considering all aspects of the issues. I believe it is a fair conclusion that the study of new religious movements in the academia sees a conflict between a majority sympathetic to these movements and a minority hostile to them and that in the (pro-NRMs) majority texts by Introvigne, CESNUR, Bromley, Melton, etc. are regarded as authoritative. We are talking of authors published by Brill, Oxford University Press, Cambridge University Press, University of California Press (editor of Nova Religio), not of newspapers published by the French Communist Party or one of the Dutch Green parties, whose anti-CESNUR diatribes of 20 years ago are obsessively referenced by some editors here... Aidayoung (talk) 15:28, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
(Non-administrator comment) I just want to make sure that "I have presented others as my own with the consent of the religious movements concerned to make the copyright approval process simpler" is not overlooked, that we move to delete all uploads that this person has falsely branded as their own work in order to evade our licensing requirements. --Nat Gertler (talk) 15:45, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
I have started a deletion discussion at Commons, here: Commons:Commons:Deletion requests/Files of user:Aidayoung (2). Looking through those images to start that discussion, I noticed that they are either glossy and professional-looking images which have almost certainly been provided for publicity purposes, or are snapshots taken on an iPhone 6. It's certainly a popular phone choice, but this is also another potential indicator that these were taken by the same person. Additionally, one of the uploads is File:Italian iPhone 2779.jpg, which was taken in Taiwan, not Italy. I don't know why any image of a person would be named that, but regardless, it's another point against this being a coincidence. Grayfell (talk) 00:27, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
To be honest I don't think Aidayoung is Introvigne, for a number of reasons, just someone working for Introvigne/CESNUR, and travelling with Introvigne. - Tom | Thomas.W talk03:17, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
@Aidayoung: Let me start by once again pointing out that I have never edited any "cult articles", and had also never edited any other article even remotely related to CESNUR before the previous report here at WP:ANI (linked to in my first edit in this discussion). As for the rest it's just a repeat of CESNUR's by now utterly boring standard line about every addition of anything that can be seen as negative to any article related to CESNUR, Introvigne, Oleg Maltsev or any of the other cults that Introvigne and CESNUR fraternise with, and every removal of any of the unsourced/badly sourced promotion that is repeatedly added to those articles, being linked to either communists, "green parties" or Russian anti-cultists. And no, being hosted on WSRP doesn't automagically make material a reliable source, since it's of very variable quality, and not peer-reviewed, so everything hosted there has to stand on its own, and be carefully scrutinized and evaluated. - Tom | Thomas.W talk17:17, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
Each of us may have some valid points here.
I am by inclination a peaceful person and one willing to take opposite points of view into account. The fact that L’Humanitè is the journal of the French Communist Party and De Groene Amsterdamer of a small left-wing ecological Dutch party are facts. I find Wikipedia copyright practice difficult to understand and perhaps have something to learn (if a religion, being it the Catholic Church or an obscure cult, wants to provide sympathetic researchers with pictures and authorize them to use them it seems to me a good thing in a world with too much copyright hassles, but Wikipedia may disagree - other Web sites don’t).
On certain entries, again, I believe that rather than continuing a time-consuming spiral of adding-reverting-counter-reverting we should ask administrators to look at least at CESNUR and solve some issues.
I am both flattered to be identified with Introvigne and find slightly amusing that, having a significant number of staff members and research assistants, as anybody who has attended a CESNUR conference knows, he would edit Wikipedia personally - it seems other matters should keep him quite busy Aidayoung (talk) 14:17, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Aidayoung has changed their story at the Commons discussion, and is now saying that they did take these photos after all. So again, they took photos which were first used by Introvigne for article published, under copyright, by wrldrels.org and then uploaded by Aidayoung to Commons later. As I said at that discussion, either Aidayoung took photos which were personally selected and used by Introvigne in multiple articles about different religions in different countries, without any attribution to anyone else, or Aidayoung did not have the rights to upload these photos and is lying. Grayfell (talk) 21:18, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
Not used “by Introvigne” but used “by WRSP.” You seem unaware of how journals and large web sites such as WRSP operate. They deal with copyright issues and select pictures rather than the author of the texts. WRSP included several thousand pictures they receive from people approving of their enterprise for their huge archive. I have a right to put my pictures at free disposal of both WRSP and Wikipedia.
I should also lament here the liberal name-calling. We are all trying to improve Wikipedia in our free time. I may regards eg Scientology in a less negative way than you di but this is no reason to resort to call people “liar” or worse Aidayoung (talk) 12:47, 16 November 2019 (UTC)
You said that "I have presented others as my own ... to make the copyright approval process simpler". What is this if not an admission that you are trying to game the system for your own convenience? You have told us that these photos were provided by someone else, but then later said that you took almost all of them yourself. The two which you have not claimed ownership of both conspicuously indicated a direct connection to Introvigne. The first being taken at Odessa at an event Introvigne was known to have attended, and the second which includes "Italian iPhone" in the name. In other words, it appears you are attempting to use this copyright issue to downplay obvious signs of COI involvement. The only plausible explanation for this behavior is that either you are Introvigne, or you are someone who has traveled with him to multiple countries and worked closely with him for multiple years. It doesn't really matter which, because your behavior shows that you are willing to game the system to inflate the significance of Introvigne and his associates. This is not appropriate behavior on Wikipedia. Grayfell (talk) 23:28, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
I believe we are keep repeating the same stuff and perhaps we should wait for administrators to decide. I maintain that - quite apart from the fight about the CESNUR entry, where administrators should decide on substantial matters of defamation - entries I wrote on other subjects are balanced and informative and used the best available sources, which in some cases happens to be CESNUR publications or articles or books by Introvigne, who is after all a prolific author. But as I said repeating the same arguments is becoming circular and boring. I assume we all have better things to do in life. Let the administrators decide. Aidayoung (talk) 02:25, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
Comment for admins I know this is a lengthy thread, but I hope this doesn't get lost in the shuffle because there are some clear issues here that need to be addressed. The circumstantial and behavioral evidence suggests that this editor has a COI, or at least edits like someone who has a conflict, and they are operating in an obscure corner of the site that is vulnerable to disruptive editing. Nblundtalk20:22, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
Concur in requesting closure admin assistance. Five diverse editors agree there's an issue, and the sixth person actively requests admin feedback. Absent authoritative feedback, the status quo will likely be an editor-enforced de facto "topic ban" that leads to wikistress all round. Feoffer (talk) 08:11, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
I don't know who you're concurring with, since you, as far as I can see, are the only one who wants this closed without action. As for me I still hope one or more admins will take a look at it.... - Tom | Thomas.W talk16:45, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
Oh, I'm 100% with you, I just misused the terminology of 'closure'. I thought it meant admin assistance. Sorry bout that! . Feoffer (talk) 20:00, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
The unmentioned part of all this appears to be the already authorized arbitration sanctions into which Aidayounf has walking into:
Standard discretionary sanctions are authorised with immediate effect for the Scientology topic broadly construed. All warnings and sanctions shall be logged in the appropriate section of the main case page. Any editor who, in the judgement of an uninvolved administrator, is (i) focused primarily on Scientology or Scientologists and (ii) clearly engaged in promoting an identifiable agenda may be topic-banned for up to one year. Any editor topic banned under this sanction may be re-blocked at the expiry of a topic ban if they recommence editing in the topic having made few or no significant edits outside of it during the period of the topic ban.
I don't see how Aidayoung can be topic banned under the discretionary sanctions regime at the moment since AFAICT, they only just meet the awareness criteria now that I gave them the alert. Do they meet one of the criteria? I didn't see any when I did a quick check e.g. they weren't part of the original decision Nil Einne (talk) 09:55, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
Apologies I didn't read the above that well. I didn't know of the general restriction for the Scientology case. I guess this can be imposed if the requirements are met, without needing to be made aware of the discretionary sanctions regime, I don't really know. This isn't something I have ever dealt with before. In any case, I've made them aware so discretionary sanctions can also be imposed as needed. Nil Einne (talk) 14:21, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Please watchlist the Kiwi Farms article. The site was originally set up to attack Christine Weston Chandler, and the article has been subject to periodic attempts over the years to crowbar in inappropriate references to Chandler. I just deleted the third creation of the article on Chandler (first one was a G5) and salted. Guy (help!) 11:08, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
Chris-Chan is important to internet history, and reliable sources have discussed him; see <attack link removed>. DiAsNW (talk) 17:15, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
Linking to a defamatory trolling/harassment wiki is literally the opposite of making a valid case for inclusion on Wikipedia. I strongly suggest you review relevant policies such as WP:BLP, WP:RS, and WP:V before editing further. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 17:31, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
Just take a look at the references beneath any random page and you will see what I mean. Please stop making rude comments. DiAsNW (talk) 18:11, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
User:DiAsNW appears to have a problem reading and understanding Wikipedia policy relating to living people, even after being warned and referred to said policies here and on his talk page. See their multipleproblematicedits on Doxing, which are repeatedly adding defamatory information about a living person sourced to patently unreliable sources such as KF and a Twitter post. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 17:52, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
I recently nominated a category for deletion, and instinctively checked out the creator. I was only peripherally aware of this user beforehand, but looking through their talk page and taking a quick glance at their edit history, this does look like a potential WP:CIR concern. I think administrators know the type I am referring to:
Redlink account
Never replies or interacts with anyone.
Talk page is a massive flood of deletion notices that they never address or take into consideration.
Continues to create similar categories or images undeterred, despite the track record of them being constantly deleted.
In my experience, these are genuine red flags. Cwf97 seems to have been at it for a while and has racked up an impressive collection of notices. It's worth an administrator taking a look at. DarkKnight214906:58, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
It's also worth noting that back in September 2018, Cwf97 was informed that communication is required in the midst of so many notices and that they should address their actions. Cwf97 responded to this message and one other, before they once again stopped replying and the notices continued to pile on. DarkKnight214907:07, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
@Cjhard: I placed a notice there to avoid the post from being prematurely archived. Could you please elaborate on what you mean? I don't see how anything I typed was unclear. DarkKnight214908:03, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
It is very poor form to edit a comment after it's been responded to, as it renders other user's comments incomprehensible. Cjhard is presumably pointing to the lack of diffs or any other evidence of disruption that would lead an administrator to feel that there is action required here. --JBL (talk) 13:02, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
@Joel B. Lewis: What exactly are you missing a diff to? The report is very clear as it is and can be proven simply by going through the user's talk page (which is almost nothing but a sea of deletion / disruption notices that they fail to address) and taking a quick look at their edit history. This has already been linked to as well. Unless you didn't actually read the report, I fail to see an issue. DarkKnight214914:29, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
This and this remain the only time that Cwf97 has ever interacted with anyone, after which they went right back to ignoring all communication and refusing to adjust their behaviour in light of so many notices (as more and more notices continued to build up on their talkpage as if nothing ever happened). What is not disruptive about this? DarkKnight214914:50, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
I personally am not missing anything, diffs or otherwise. Does being unpleasant to people who try to answer your questions usually work well for you? --JBL (talk) 22:24, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
Who is being unpleasant? You suggested that this report was unevidenced and I asked you to elaborate on what evidence was missing. If you take offense to something that small and nonconfrontational, then I'm not sure what you are expecting here. If my response came across as blunt, I apologise. DarkKnight214923:12, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
By itself, it's not. But coupled with other behaviours (never interacting with other users, disruption with a lack of edit history, striking similarities to edits with other IPs/accounts, ETC), it definitely can be worth mentioning. I have dealt with enough of this specific type of disruption (I.E. users who never interact with anyone, continuously rack up deletion and disruption notices, using almost no edit summaries, and only doing their own thing with little regard to consensus, communicating, or guidelines/policies) to know that they usually don't bother to create a userpage either. But you are correct in that you can't accuse someone of disruption simply because they have no userpage. DarkKnight214900:53, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
I think you misunderstand what I am saying. I'm not giving scrutiny based on not having a userpage. But not having one does often correlate with sock puppet accounts, inexperience, WP:CIR, ETC (only in the sense that these types of users usually don't go through the trouble of creating a userpage). If anyone accuses someone of disruption based solely on not having a userpage or being an IP user, then the accuser is the one being disruptive per WP:ASPERSIONS. Out of all of the traits I listed above, not having an account is easily the most minor.
I wasn't pointing it out to imply that not having an account is bad. I was essentially naming everything off. It's the behaviours that are the issue. DarkKnight214901:43, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
Posting this mainly to avoid a premature archive. This one has pretty much slipped by since it was posted, and still hasn't received a response from an administrator. It received some unhelpful, slightly off-topic comments from non-administrators above (a cryptic response from Cjhard, an interpretation of that response by JBL, and an objection to me pointing out the lack of a userpage), but that's about it. DarkKnight214902:54, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
Unless you argue that all 2500 edits of the user are bad, it is probably necessary that you bring a number of diffs showing that their behavior is not acceptable, and a block is required.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:08, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
Greetings, Ymblanter! I must admit that I always dislike when an administrator automatically assumes that I'm after a block or a specific result whenever I file an ANI report. The proper course of action is entirely in the hands of administrators such as yourself. We just report it. I apologise if I came off a little strong with the "Administrator comment still needed" header. Until now, this case had slipped under the radar and I was trying to prevent a premature archive.
The reason I have filed this report is because Cwf97 (who primarily creates categories and adds them to articles) refuses to use edit summaries or communicate with other users, all while their categories are constantly nominated for deletion and they refuse to modify their behaviour in any way. You only need to go to User talk:Cwf97 to see that they receive 2-3 notices every month and their talk page is drowning in them. Cwf97 was previous warned in September 2018 to start responding to other uses and addressing the copious amount of notices. The user reacted by responding to only twodiscussions on their own talk page before ignoring all communication again and continuing the same shtick as if nothing ever happened. I suspect an element of WP:CIR at play here. DarkKnight214921:52, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
Yes, I have been to their talk page before I left my previous comment, however, I have not gone through recent edits. If it is really a CIR issue we have to block, because they have been warned multiple times. However, I am not yet sure about it and I will need to look at their edits in more details.--Ymblanter (talk) 22:00, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
Langholz8 has accused me of admin abuse (1) and it was removed by ~riley after Langholz8 had accused him of admin abuse (2) and he had reverted Commons Delinker bot (3). Then he repeated his accusation of admin abuse against me today and incorrectly accused me of removing the previous accusation. (4) I've never interacted with this user at all. Believing this might have been a sock that I had blocked, I checked and the only reason why I think he is accusing me of abuse is because he is using a range that I have anon blocked because of another sock that I think is unrelated. Langholz8 is editing without problem using his account.
When I looked at his edits, it appears that he likes to make unfounded accusations and other uncivil remarks towards editors which include:
He vandalized a userpage adding "How to be t troll" and was reverted by someone else and then repeated it. Next, he trolled that same user by revertinghim twice on an article that he followed him to and templated him with the warning that he had received for vandalizing the userpage.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
77.162.226.226's temporary block has expired. But they've resumed their previous behaviour. Vandalising information in articles and replacing them with blatant rubbish. They clearly haven't shown signs of improvement. ― C.Syde(talk | contribs)00:02, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Somebody is flooding the edit filter log repeatedly trying to register an inappropriate account name. See [286]. Is it possible to get an IP block on this even though the account isn't being successfully registered? Home Lander (talk) 03:31, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
The user has been adding unsourced new entries to the specific article (List of Inkigayo Chart winners (2019)) for over 4 months, ignoring numerous warnings that every new entry in the table should include a citation. Potentially Wikipedia:Competence is required problem, or simply ignores on purpose.
I'm not seeing an actionable offense here. Although unsourced, the additions are made in good faith by a user who hasn't gotten the hang of things yet. From what I see, the additions have always been factually correct; they simply lack an inline citation. Looking at Nevin S N's talk page, they have received only templated warning messages and have been aggressively approached by Snowflake91 with a WP:BITEY demeanor.
I'm also not getting the approach in handling these edits. You revert the user, then restore the information with a source. How about... just adding the source to begin with? Or tag it with {{cn}} for the time being. The content isn't even being challenged, just the letter of policy being rigorously pushed. That's incredibly and needlessly bureaucractic. ƏXPLICIT12:43, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
So are you saying that its perfectly fine to add unsourced content in Wikipedia articles? Great to know, I wont bother adding it anymore then, will just add CN templates so someone else could add references if they would bother. Its fine if you correct edits after the new user two/three times and explain to them what are they doing wrong, but I'm sorrry, if he is doing this for 5 months with 25+ unsourced edits despite you explain to them what is wrong and they simply ignore it, then this IS disruption. Snowflake91 (talk) 13:37, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
Explicit isn't saying "that its perfectly fine to add unsourced content in Wikipedia articles", just that, in their opinion, your response to the problem could be better. Paul August☎17:12, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
@Snowflake91: Another shining example of your level-headed approach to user interaction. You completely misrepresented my comment, in an unsurprisingly aggressive and self-centered manner. Interestingly, you've ignored the fact those most claims on Inkigayo are entirely unsourced, which you have yet to remove. You even failed to provide a reference for your edit on the Inkigayo article, your edit on Show! Music Core, your edit on M Countdown, and so on. If you want to apply policy, you should also be subject to a block for long-term unsourced additions as well. You agree, correct? ƏXPLICIT07:26, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
@Explicit: Adding a +1 win to the table is simply WP:CALC since those wins are sourced in "List of winners" articles, you wont find a source anywhere for the exact number of wins per artists on Inkigayo. Of course it should be removed, but good luck with this since the IPs would restore it instantly. But on the other hand, there are tons of sources for a single win in the episode, and the user is not bothered to add it. Snowflake91 (talk) 11:19, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
@Paul August: Yes, my issue is with the approach of a novice editor who could choose to not return after being bitten. K-pop-related articles are largely tragedies, and Nevin S N's edits have been constructive and well-intended, but could be improved by supplying references. Instead, they were met with {{uw-unsourced2}} as their introductory message on their talk page. Then, they would see their edits undone, but then restored anyway by the same person. What understanding of Wikipedia's function is a newbie supposed to grasp there? The better approach would have been: "Hello, welcome to Wikipedia. Thanks for keeping List of Inkigayo Chart winners (2019) up to date. In the future, it would be better if you cited a source so others can verify that the winners and points are correct. If you need any help with this or any other questions, please let me know. Thanks." Basic psychology supports that the editor would have responded way better to that sort of message. If the problems still persisted, then we would have had this conversation. ƏXPLICIT07:26, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
Of course I posted {{uw-unsourced2}}, I have already warned the user at least two times in the edit summary that he needs to include a source before even posting on his talk page. But, if he doesn't read edit summaries or talk pages and probably not even this page despite having a notice that there is a discussion going on, who's problem is that? Snowflake91 (talk) 11:27, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
@Explicit: did you notice that they have never responded on their talk page? In fact they've never posted to a talk page? I'm assuming they are offline at the moment, but will give them a notice that they need to respond so that we know that they know about their talk page. If they edit again without any response anywhere, I'll block them to see if that gets their attention. Doug Wellertalk14:38, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
@Doug Weller: That may be a sign of not wanting to interact, or that the user may not entirely grasp what talk pages are for. It's hard to tell, really. I didn't make my first edit to a user talk page until I was four months into editing. ƏXPLICIT07:26, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
Vcuttolo's POV-pushing, unsourced or synthesis material, BLP violations, edit warring, and personal attacks across various articles
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
At various articles, Vcuttolo makes edits that simply push the narrative he wants. And in order to do this, he adds unsourced material, engages in WP:Synthesis, WP:BLP violations, edit warring, and makes personal attacks against other editors, often arguing that he is balancing the articles. Andreldritch stated it best here at Talk:Death of JonBenét Ramsey: "I found that Vcuttolo's approach is 'get a handful of new citations, make them conform to Vcuttolo's interpretation, and overwhelm other editors.' In each case, Vcuttolo said supporting evidence was cited, yet checking the citation revealed no such wording or content to support Vcuttolo's claim. When called out for the citation not conforming to Vcuttolo's input, Vcuttolo then drops that particular topic/thread and pretends it didn't happen. Not at all helpful, especially when it seems that edit warring is Vcuttolo's default method of dealing with other editors' changes and comments." The Death of JonBenét Ramsey article is why I've brought the matter here to ANI, as I was not aware of Vcuttolo before he began editing disruptively there. That article is currently on lockdown due to Vcuttolo consistently returning to the article to push his POV and edit war against two other editors (myself included) who have repeatedly explained on the article's talk page why his edits are problematic. Rather than reversing the article to the WP:Status quo while keeping it on temporary lockdown only for the problem to repeat itself after it's no longer full-protected (well, unless an admin were to simply block Vcuttolo instead of allow him to hold an article hostage), an admin encouraged editors to bring Vcuttolo to ANI.
So to get right into this matter, see the examples below. There are various examples within the examples. So perhaps the examples should be called "cases" or something else, or nothing at all. Either way, here they are.
Examples of Vcuttolo's problematic editing, from 2018 to 2019.
Example 1: On March 9, 2018, at the Dinesh D'Souza article, Vcuttolo claimed he was adding balance by adding the word "alleged." Volunteer Marekreverted him, stating, "Yeah, that ain't "balance". Vcuttolo made a series of other POV edits, and VolunteerMarek reverted him again. A couple of days later, Vcuttolo was right back at it, this time adding "claimed" in violation of the WP:Claim guideline. In this case, it was NorthBySouthBaranof who reverted him. After that, Vcuttolo engaged in WP:Editorializing, as identified by NorthBySouthBaranof, and NorthBySouthBaranof reverted that. Here, Vcuttolo re-added "alleged", and NorthBySouthBaranof reverted again, stating, "This word is literally not present in the source - please read the cited source." Here and here respectively, Vcuttolo stated that he was adding clarity and context. He was reverted by Volunteer Marek here and here because the material was WP:OR. Later, he added unsourced material that was reverted by SPECIFICO. He went to NuclearWizard's talk page to complain, but it went beyond a complaint and waded into personal attacks territory; he stated, "I went to Volunteer Marek's Talk page, and I see that you recently had a problem with him doing a mass revert on an edit (or edits) of yours. That SOB is doing the same thing to me, albeit in a far smaller way, on the Dinesh D'Souza page. I am a baby in Wikipedia terms. What does one do when a total asshole like Volunteer Marek abuse[s] his editorial power? I am truly disgusted by his actions. Is there a way to address Volunteer Marek's assholeness? Or should I just give up on Wikipedia altogether?" He was warned on his talk page about edit warring and the personal attack.
Example 2: On July 1, 2018, at the Brett Kavanaugh article, Vcuttolo added conspiracy theory material. On July 2, NorthBySouthBaranof reverted, stating, "I am really unsure we should be using a discredited book of conspiracy theories to attack a living person in this manner. Discuss relevance on talk page." He then warned Vcuttolo on Vcuttolo's talk page about Vcuttolo's penchant for the conspiracy theory angle, and for making this edit at the The Secret Life of Bill Clinton article, where Vcuttolo decsribed Gene Lyons as a "Clinton apologist." NorthBySouthBaranof stated, "Your personal belief that a reporter is a 'Clinton apologist' is nothing more than that, and has zero place in a Wikipedia article." Did Vcuttolo take this comment to heart? No. That is why more examples follow.
Example 3: Also on July 2, 2018, at the Suicide of Vince Foster article, Vcuttolo engaged in POV editing, with claims that he was trying to achieve balance. He was reverted by Teratix, who also left a message on Vcuttolo's talk page about the matter. Vcuttolo then made this edit, which took away the entire lead, stating, "Fucking tired of liberal bullshit editing out a balance in an article." He then started gutting the article, as seen here and here, bemoaning "Is there a wikipedia editor anywhere who cares about balance at all???" and "I am sick and tired of spending an hour carefully crafting an appropriate edit, only to have someone with an ax to grind deleting the entire thing with a single keystroke." He also left a nasty message on Teratix's talk page, stating, in part, "I am so absolutely sick and tired of working for hours to carefully edit a Wikipedia entry appropriately, only to have some uninformed schmuck spend one second ignorantly destroying everything I've done. I realize that I am in the distinct minority of being a conservative in the overwhelmingly liberal Wikipedia world, but might there be some liberals who actually care for honesty and integrity? Your deleting my corrections to the Vince Foster alleged suicide article, without bothering to spend a moment finding out if you have a leg to stand on - that was the straw that sent me off the edge. Too often those who share your narrow world view have done the same to my edits, and I simply can't stand it anymore." He was warned on his talk page about the personal attack. It took admin Black Kite coming along to restore the material to fix things. Vcuttolo engaged in more disruptive editing, and was soon reverted by Calton, who stated, in part, "rewrite, don't whitewash." Vcuttolo made more deletions and was then reverted on July 4 by Volunteer Marek, who asked him to discuss the matter on the article's talk page. He then made an edit querying why he needed to "prove a negative" and that "the information [he] removed is contradicted by dozens of sources." Calton reverted him, stating, "Why yes, yes you do." He reverted Calton, and then MrXreverted him, stating, "This has been reverted half a dozen times, and for good reason. Please don't repeat the edit until you have consensus on the talk page."
Example 4: On August 16, 2018, Vcuttolo was warned by admin Doug Weller about edits he made to the Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez article appearing to be a violation of WP:BLP, and because he needed "to avoid any edits related to the conflict until [he] reach[ed] 500 edits." Coffeeandcrumbsalso reverted him, stating, "Removal of sourced content to a relevant section."
Example 6: On November 7, 2018, he was warned on his talk page by multiple editors for edits he made to the Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and for edit warring. He was blocked.
Example 7: On November 11, 2018, Vcuttolo violated his topic ban with regard to the Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez article, which was explained to him on his talk page. There, NorthBySouthBaranof told him in part, "What you really need to do right now is stop, step back from these issues, and go edit less controversial articles on other topics of interest, while taking time to learn about Wikipedia's fundamental policies like WP:NPOV, WP:WEIGHT, WP:BLP and WP:RS." NorthBySouthBaranof gave Vcuttolo the benefit of the doubt and stated that he wanted to see Vcuttolo develop into a productive editor. He tried to explain to Vcuttolo why Vcuttolo's edits are problematic. Rather than heed the warning, and take the advice, Vcuttolo complained at NorthBySouthBaranof's talk page, stating, "The Israeli-Arab ban was a result of a misunderstanding, as I explained to him clearly, and the rest was just an attempt at crushing a little guy who is trying to keep things balanced." He also posted to the article's talk page again, and then Bonadea had to revert, as also noted on Vcuttolo's talk page.
Example 8: On December 16, 2018, coming out of his topic ban, Vcuttolo was reverted on a series of edits at the Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez article on the basis that the edits were "undue synth [...] we know Israeli media criticize anyone criticizing israel."
Example 9: Also on December 16, 2018, admin Bishonenstopped by Vcuttolo's talk page, stating, "I noticed with surprise that here, you inserted a 'falsely' into the (properly sourced) statement that Leah Nelson labeled Colin Flaherty a white nationalist propagandist. The source you added for 'falsely' — stated in Wikipedia's voice — was a comment by Flaherty himself. Wikipedia goes by reliable secondary sources, and most definitely not by what people say about themselves. (Nobody is likely to call themselves white nationalist propagandists, just as no political party is likely to call themselves 'populist' or whatever. That doesn't mean we can't use those terms, as long as reliable sources use them.) That was not the only poor-quality edit you made to the same article, but probably the most egregious. Please take a look at our policy concerning reliable sources, Wikipedia:Verifiability, before you continue editing." As seen there on his talk page, Vcuttolo engaged in WP:Wikilawyering. Bishonen shut that down.
Example 10: On January 31, 2019, at the Kamala Harris article, Vcuttolo added the words "the married" after the words "she dated" so that the text read as "she dated the married Speaker of the California State AssemblyWillie Brown." This was reverted by Zefr as irrelevant, but the problem with the edit was pointed out on Vcuttolo's talk page by Snooganssnoogans. Snooganssnoogans stated, "Your edit here makes it appear that Kamala Harris had an illicit affair with a married man. However, all RS on the subject make it clear that the man in question had been estranged from his wife for more than a decade - why did you leave out that context?" Vcuttolo's explanation was, "I was under the misimpression that Brown was still together with his wife at that time. When I saw the second revert, I read the added link which explained that Brown was already separated, which is why I chose not to pursue it further." So this was yet another careless edit by Vcuttolo at a BLP. Vcuttolo also stated that he felt that the information was still relevant because "it is worth a mention that Brown had separated from his wife at the time." Going by the statement on his talk page, one would think he was done and that he would not again imply that Kamala Harris had an illicit affair with a married man. But no. On February 1, 2019, Vcuttolo returned to add "who was married," stating, "It is hardly irrelevant to the story of Kamala Harris to note that she dated a man she knew to be married. In the case of every other politician it is considered relevant. See Donald Trump, for example. If anyone else has a problem, please go to the Talk Page." Bellowhead678 removed the piece with this edit and added a different source, stating, "brown had been estranged from his wife for a decade at this point - seems irrelevant." That source was replaced with a different one by MrX.
Example 11: On February 17, 2019, because of his edits to the Vince Foster and Suicide of Vince Foster articles, Vcuttolo was "banned from any topic relating to Vince Foster or his death, broadly construed, for six months." As seen there on his talk page, he complained, stating things such as "It continues to amaze how some parts of WP are utterly allergic to facts. All I wrote - on the TALK PAGE, mind you, not in the body of the article itself - is that the evidence clearly leans heavily to homicide, not suicide." and "You can block me for 1000 years, but that will not change the fact that the WP article entitled 'Suicide of Vince Foster' is chock-full of falsities, verifiably so." Doug Weller explained to him that "The sanctions apply to behaviour on talk pages, as does our BLP policy." Calton also explained matters to him. And admin Acroterion, who left the message on his talk page about the topic ban, also told him, "Consider this your only warning about breaches of your topic ban - appeals may be made to me (and it must be a good-faith appeal, not a complaint) or to the Arbitration Committee venue noted above. Nowhere else. This [287], for instance, is an example of a topic ban violation - testing boundaries is more of what you've been doing."
Example 14: On August 25, 2019, Vcuttolo's problematic editing at the Death of JonBenét Ramsey article began. The problem has continued since. He has been warned about synthesis, WP:Undue weight, and edit warring there more than once. On the talk page, he stated, "I have read thousands of pages on the Jonbenèt case, watched numerous videos, and have become something of an expert on the case over the years." He claimed that the "family member theory" had been discredited and that the article gives too much weight to that theory. He made it clear that he believes in the "intruder theory" and wants the article more heavily weighted in that direction. He stated, "If [I] see how [the article] looked six months or a year ago, before [you] touched it, the article represented the investigation as conclusively clearing the Ramseys, period." I told him that "I've been with this article for years. Which version of the article are you referring to? You can link to that version via the edit history if it exists, but I don't think it does. All we've ever stated is, like we currently do in the lead, 'In 2003, trace DNA that was taken from the victim's clothes was found to belong to an unknown male; each of the family's DNA had been excluded from this match. The DA sent the Ramseys a letter of apology in 2008, declaring the family 'completely cleared' by the DNA results.'" He never linked the version of the article he claimed existed because it doesn't exist. I told him, "Suspicion of the Ramseys is not some fringe view. What WP:Reliable sources do you have stating that 'most believe the Ramseys have been conclusively eliminated as suspects'? I'm just not seeing that." He went on about what sources he personally considers biased and therefore unreliable, never mind what WP:Reliable sources and WP:BIASED states, and went on about how he thinks I'm not fit to edit the article and suggested that I "recuse [myself] from this situation." I told him "we are dealing with two theories here. There are no reliable sources that state that the intruder theory is more accepted than the family member theory. There are no reliable sources that state that it's the consensus theory." He wasn't accepting any of this and continued his disruptive editing and Wikilawyering. Acroterion came along and told him, "Vcuttolo: Demanding that other editors stop editing because you assert that they're not up to your standard of expertise in 'true crime,' whatever that is (the Wikipedia definition is accounts, often sensationalized, of criminal events) - short of Truman Capote, you don't get to pick and choose who edits articles like this. Your demand isn't acceptable on Wikipedia." Eventually, Vcuttolo stated, "Let's see how often I continue to get reverted by someone or another for daring to try to balance out this article." Acroterion also warned Vcuttolo on Vcuttolo's talk page, stating, "Much of your extremely lengthy talkpage discussion takes the form of thinly veiled attacks on other editors. This must stop." As seen there, Vcuttolo engaged in more personal attacks and Acroterion warned him again. When, after that, he engaged in more personal attacks on the article's talk page, Acroterion blocked him for 36 hours. By this time, it was September 3, 2019. The article was also full-protected by a different admin.
After his block expired, more problematic editing from Vcuttolo continued. When full-protection wore off, Vcuttolo continued where he last left off at and was reverted more than once by Crossroads and me, with and clear explanations as to why. Instead of stopping and taking the matter to the article's talk page, Vcuttolo took the matter to Crossroads's talk page and wrongly accused him of misconduct. He also cast aspersions on his talk page. He was warned about both on his talk page, but has continued to imply that Crossroads and I are sockpuppets or meatpuppets. He was reported by me at the edit warring noticeboard. Taking him to ANI was brought up. The report was deemed stale because the edit warring stopped. A month passed. Vcuttolo returned. Most recently, Vcuttolo made thisWP:POINTY edit, arguing, "Either include all relevant sides, or none. Stop cherry-picking miseading information." Again, the editor has no understanding of our WP:NPOV policy. He's been reverted on this removal multiple times now, with valid reasons as to why. After that latest edit, a revert by Crossroads, and Vcuttolo reverting again, the article was full-protected again, with specific reference to Vcuttolo. And, on the talk page, editors (me included) have again taken issue with Vcuttolo's editing and the article being full-protected with his edits intact (never mind The Wrong Version). About the latest editing, I was clear that I reverted this because Vcuttolo added WP:Undue material about the autopsy, again trying to cast doubt on the coroner's report. What he added is not commonly reported at all. Regarding this, Crossroads reverted because Vcuttolo engaged in WP:IDON'TLIKEIT behavior by removing the important fact from the lead (which is also an aspect covered lower) that "others, including former Boulder police chief Mark Beckner, disagreed with exonerating the Ramseys, criticizing exonerating anyone based on a small piece of evidence that has not yet been proven to be connected." Vcuttolo acts like the removal is now justified because of this and this material he added about Beckner. It's not. Like I stated when appropriately re-adding that Beckner material, Vcuttolo engaged in WP:Editorializing and WP:Synthesis. There is no "Within days, Beckner walked his comment back" or "Beckner then quickly reversed himself, clearly indicating that this was in fact a DNA case." Nowhere does Beckner take back saying that it's absurd to exonerate people based on a small piece of evidence that wasn't proven as connected.
Trying to discuss matters with Vcuttolo on the article's talk page is hardly constructive because Vcuttolo will simply ignore or Wikilawyer what we are saying to him about rules (including Wikipedia's sourcing standards and WP:Due weight), and he will also go back to attacking us. It got to the point where Acroterion hatted a discussion there. And when sanctioning Vcuttolo was very recently brought up, including at the article's talk page by the admin who full-protected the article twice, we can see on the admin's talk page that Vcuttolo still doesn't get it, stating, "I was otheriwse sanctioned for fighting against biased and ignorant editors."
Example 15: On November 1 2019, as seen by this revert by Andreldritch, Vcuttolo engaged in problematic editing at the Michael Baden article. This article is related to the Death of JonBenét Ramsey article because of Baden material included in the Death of JonBenét Ramsey article. With the revert, Andreldritch stated, "Cites speculation and leans towards opinion." Vcuttolo came back and made this edit. No edit summary. Andreldritch reverted, stating, "Please check previous entries: Baden was not fired by Kock, he was not re-appointed, etc." Vcuttolo reverted, stating, "I responded on the Talk page. I will also be adding additional reliable sources which characterize Baden's removal as a 'firing'." He made more edits. Andreldritch made this edit, stating, "Change as per TALK and definitive references." Vcuttolo made more edits. Andreldritch made this edit, stating, "Once again, use a definitive source about the incident--the NYTimes--not a reference inside another story." Andreldritch again stated, "Firing is not mentioned." On the talk page, we can further see how things went. Arguments over "fired" and what the sources state. Vcuttolo argued that the court used the term "fired" when addressing the situation. Andreldritch asked Vcuttolo, "Please cite the passage (paragraph, clause) in your openjurist ref where the judge who heard the case uses the term 'fired.'" Vcuttolo did not.
Example 16: On November 24, 2019, at the Mason Rudolph (American football) article, Vcuttolo added material that was reverted by Eagles247 as POV language. Vcuttolo came back and made another edit; this was reverted by Eagles247 with the edit summary that it "didn't happen." Vcuttolo added more material, and was reverted on this piece by Eagles247, who stated, "even if it was mentioned in the sources here (it's not), it's still in violation of WP:NPOV." He added something else and was reverted by a different editor, who stated, "Doesn't say 'late hit' anywhere in the NYPost citation. Please be more specific with your citations; we do read them." After more edits by Vcuttolo, Eagles247 reverted him on this, stating, "The NYT article is describing how he was tackled. Does not say he was tackled, and THEN held on after he was tackled. Says he was wrapped up, held on, then dragged to ground."
Example 17: Also on November 24, 2019, Vcuttolo added this material to the Devlin Hodges article. He was partially reverted by Eagles247, who stated, "source provided has nothing to do with this week's game." So why did Vcuttolo add that material? Not paying attention? He simply wanted to add "ineffective" in front of "Mason Rudolph"? Whatever the case, it was problematic. Why is he adding "ineffective"?
Example 18: On November 26, 2019, at the Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth article, Vcuttolo added "has been widely accepted" in place of "is universally accepted" so that the sentence read as "The NIST explanation of collapse has been widely accepted by the structural engineering, and structural mechanics research communities." Vcuttolo argued, " 'Universally' is a big term. At least one structural engineer with AE911 would probably disagree. 'Widely accepted' seems to be the more accurate description." This again shows him going by his personal feelings. He was reverted.
Example 19: On November 26, 2019 and On November 27, 2019 respectively, Vcuttolo referred to Crossroads1 as "[my] partner" and "sidekick." The comments show him continuing to suggest that Crossroads and I are conspiring against him and are doing so only because (he believes) Crossroads1 and I are very close. How close? You'd have to ask Vcuttolo.
Example 20: On November 27, 2019, after Andreldritc's comment at Talk:Death of JonBenét Ramsey, Vcuttolo went to Andreldritc's talk page and made this "Is that a knife in my back?" post, opining that Andreldritc had "kick[ed] [him] when [he's] down."
There are a lot more examples. And there would surely be a lot more if he'd been editing for a lot longer. But the vast majority of these were highlighted because of the paper trail left on Vcuttolo's talk page. In the collapse box above, he is noted as stating that he is "sick and tired of working for hours to carefully edit a Wikipedia entry appropriately, only to have some uninformed schmuck spend one second ignorantly destroying everything [he's] done." Well, given the way he edits, that doesn't compare to spending hours gathering diffs and typing up an ANI thread just to put a stop to a problematic editor's behavior. I don't know if he only needs a topic ban from controversial articles, but something needs to be done. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:35, 27 November 2019 (UTC) Updated post Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:46, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
I agree. Vcuttolo's approach to editing is obviously personal and not based on the underlying premise of Wikipedia. Vcuttolo typically assaults editors with accusations of personal bias at the outset, and in my case, of metaphorically "putting a knife in my back" when discussing his methodology. That is no way to edit an objective resource, yet it is pervasive in, and indeed dominates, Vcuttolo's posts. The lengthy diatribes about what is fair and what is not (as it affects Vcuttolo personally) when someone disagrees show an inability to work collegially within the Wiki community.Andreldritch (talk) 19:44, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
My only interaction with Vcuttolo is regarding the Death of JonBenet Ramsey article. That has been detailed above by Flyer22 Reborn in her Example 14. When he shows up here he will of course again accuse me and her of conspiring against him and trying to silence him, and try to make it look like a content dispute. Even putting that article aside, the issues with Vcuttolo clearly go way beyond that single article. The fact that the same issues crop up at article after article, interacting with different editors each time in many cases, shows that the problem is Vcuttolo, not anyone else. He has a POV driven approach to Wikipedia, and this leads to all manner of issues with BLP, reliable sourcing, due weight, and so on. His talk page shows this, and so does the fact that he has been blocked 3 times before, and it is driven home by the thorough summary given above.
I would say topic ban at minimum, though how to draw the boundaries of one would be difficult. However, I think by now it is time for admins to indefinitely block this editor. He has had his problems pointed out to him many times and ample time to change and he has not done so. Why should the rest of us continue to waste time correcting his agendas? How many more articles has he edited or will he edit where no one else is watching closely and the bad edits remain? -Crossroads- (talk) (formerly Crossroads1) 19:48, 27 November 2019 (UTC) updated -Crossroads- (talk) 20:04, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
Well I've just spent half an hour that I won't get back going through the above diffs, and I don't see any reason not to simply block Vcuttolo indefinitely. They're a massive timesink for numerous good-faith editors. Black Kite (talk)19:53, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
I am not in position to properly respond right now to the above charges against me. In the meantime, I ask everyone to maintain an open mind. Included above are a large number of extremely misleading accusations, quotes pulled out of context, responses omitted, diffs placed out of order, and a handful of complete fabrications. I hope to get back to this in the coming hours. Thank you.
Support indef Looking at some of the above diffs led me to this bizarre comment. Vcuttolo is not working collaboratively and Talk:Michael Baden shows a strange inability to engage with whether the subject was "fired" or not—apparently there is a long list of sources in some version of the article but no details on talk, just blather. Johnuniq (talk) 02:22, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
Tentatively support indef - The allegations presented are disturbing. Vcuttoo has asked for more time to prepare a response, but honestly his explanation would have to be pretty thorough to get me to change my mind on this. The diffs speak for themselves, and if his response in the coming hours is not contrite and does not demonstrate a willingness to move on and edit more collegially in the future then he is in trouble. Michepman (talk) 02:45, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
Good block, as evidenced by their wall-of-text unblock request, which just strengthens the impression of them being unable or unwilling to read what others actually wrote (as opposed to what Vcuttolo thinks that others probably wrote), and of their general "It's all them and not me" mentality. --bonadeacontributionstalk10:29, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
Support indef block per ample evidence provided by Flyer22 Reborn as well as my own experience with this editor. The incessant POV-pushing is a drain on resources and the quality of our product. - MrX 🖋 13:03, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
I support a resounding thank you to Flyer22 Reborn for the very clear and convincing report. I hope they're able to work a little faster than I am, because I know researching and writing that lot would have taken me at least a week. And I also support the indef, as can be seen in my decline of the unblock request. Bishonen | talk14:05, 28 November 2019 (UTC).
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It doesn't look like there was a legal threat (unless I missed it). The material is improperly sourced, so the expedient solution seems to be to remove it, which has already been done.16:28, 29 November 2019 (UTC)— Preceding unsigned comment added by MrX (talk • contribs) [288]
@MrX: The legal threat is ... If this does not happen immediately, my attorney will demand that the Wikipedia Foundation release the name and address of Crossroads and he/she will be sued for substantial damages. This is not an idle threat, as I have substantial assets with which to hire excellent legal representation in the US, UK, or anywhere else.. gnu5716:55, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
See the beginning of the thread: Talk:North American Man/Boy Love Association#Request edit re Thomas Hubbard as a "NAMBLA associate". As seen with this, the following was stated: "Please delete Crossroads' August 30 addition to the article, or if you let it remain, add all the information I have provided that documents the true nature of the book in question and my personal disagreements with NAMBLA's approach to the age-of-consent issue. If this does not happen immediately, my attorney will demand that the Wikipedia Foundation release the name and address of Crossroads and he/she will be sued for substantial damages. This is not an idle threat, as I have substantial assets with which to hire excellent legal representation in the US, UK, or anywhere else." Related information is on Crossroads's talk page.Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:58, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
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Gobsmacking quantity of repetitious bludgeoning ending with a stamp of approval
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As shown below, they persisted and then some. Dmehus re-posted the same points as many as 21 (TWENTY ONE!) times in the same discussion. It's hard to get an exact count, and I've probably missed some. In a few cases the same point has been repeated as many as three times in the same comment. Dmehus has expressed agreement with, and pinged for replies, two particular editors, Chetsford and SportingFlyer upwards of 14 times. Chetsford had hand picked and invited to the AfD by name.[295]
The problem here isn't just Dmehus's filling the page with repetitive noise; it's the effect of badgering several other editors into making their own redundant replies. I was suckered into it, as have the two allies that Dmehus has repeatedly thanked and pinged. More than one newcomer to the AfD page has similarly been drawn into re-stating points already made several times on either side, including B k, Samboy, and Jmabel.
To wit:
I have no opinion. Is Erica C. Barnett notable? This AfD should discuss whether the article should be deleted.[296][297]
The remedy could be a topic ban on the subject of Erica C. Barnett, or on AfD discussions in general, but I think the best remedy is a ban on bludgeoning, badgering, sealioning, or peppering, construed broadly. A one-repeat-rule, subject to further action if violated. Say it once, say it twice if you must, then you're done. It might be nice if they started assuming good faith, assuming other editors have read the forgoing discussion, and not accusing them of bias, incompetence, or ulterior motives. Subsequent discussions such as Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2019 November 29 have followed the same path, bludgeoning replies to every editor.
The administrator Chetsford's hands are hardly clean in this respect. Numerous times they accused good faith editors of ignorance, incompetence, and bias, rather than respectfully accepting a difference of opinion. You can't blame Dmehus too much when that's the kind of behavior modeled by someone who is -- as Dmehus reminded us I think 7 times? -- an administrator. The AfD's closer's explicitly stated encouragement for this type of discussion is similarly problematic, not to mention the fact that it worked and successfully got the page deleted, so is all the more likely to encourage more of the same. I'm not even going to consider deletion review (canvassing and votestacking, bad faith nomination, highly questionable consensus rationale) if it means a similar "lively" debate is going to be tolerated, let alone encouraged.
We need a clear community consensus one way or the other on whether or not this kind of thing is what we want to see in talk pages and AfD discussions. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 21:38, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
I agree that the bludgeoning behavior in that AfD discussion was inappropriate. It took the closing admin nearly an hour to trudge through the entire discussion and come up with a consensus. The user has already been told that this behavior was not OK (permalink) advice they ignored. While I appreciate the closing admin’s hard work, I have concerns about how the AfD was closed; I think, in light of the Donna Strictland incident, we should err on the side of “keep”, especially with women, and I feel the sources did establish her notability. Samboy (talk) 21:54, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
Talking to myself, I also feel that using Template:Source_assess_table is useful when an AfD discussion gets contentious, and would had been a much more useful use of time instead of getting in to that pointless endless argument. This table allows us to talk about the sources, and whether they establish notability more clearly. Samboy (talk) 23:00, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
I was clearly involved in the AfD, but I'm not sure there's any remedy here other than a warning. The AfD itself was a rather difficult one with several non-policy-compliant keep !votes, and more was written than needed to be written. I think this was just improperly balanced - we want to encourage healthy discussion and we want to encourage !voters to stick to established guidelines when reviewing sources and notability, so I'm not sure anything more than a warning is needed. SportingFlyerT·C23:23, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
It seems that everyone (me, SportingFlyer, Dmheus, the closer, etc.) have been wrapped up as the responsible parties in Dennis Bratland's recollection of how this AfD went. While there was, indeed, a lot of back-and-forth and the discussion became passionate at times I saw no signs of incivility on the part of Dmehus. This was an AfD on an article in which the real-life subject of the article (who had also directly edited it) had essentially issued a "call to arms" to her followers on Twitter to defend it against "assholes" who were "anonymously harass[ing] a female journalist" and editing "her" [sic] article to read that she was "a former journalist ... who writes like shit when ... drunk" ([392], [393], etc.). This cast a simple AfD N discussion as an attempt to personally attack her by a menagerie of committed chauvinists and used a description of something that never occurred (the claim that her article had been edited to say she "writes like shit when [she's] drunk" [sic]) in an apparent attempt to rile-up her followers and influence the outcome of a WP discussion. This was followed by the materialization of burner accounts and the reanimation of dormant accounts making vague waves at "keep". Faced with this combination of off-Wiki personal attacks and canvassed drive-bys, I can understand how Dmehus felt it would be beneficial to politely engage with many of these new and reanimated users to see if they were indeed GF participants in the discussion. I'm probably going to limit my comments on this matter to that. The OP has repeatedly accused me (most recently here[394][395]) of personally threatening him (albeit sans diffs) and has rejected my numerous assurances that he is not the object of nefarious designs by anyone. Following a cursory review of OPs previous visits to ANI I believe this might be a debating tactic, however, I'd still like to maintain a respectful distance to mitigate any genuine sense of endangerment he may feel in case I've read his concerns incorrectly. Chetsford (talk) 23:25, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
My apologies. That was intended to refer to some, not all, accounts and included accounts active in the article proper, as well as the AfD. If I expressed myself imperfectly, I apologize. Obviously you are not a burner account. Chetsford (talk) 03:40, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
Apology accepted, and thank you. I wish you the best, and will go back to ValhallaDSP. If this lady’s currently deleted article goes to deletion review, I will do my best to put clarity in what is a very muddy and messy issue. Samboy (talk) 04:04, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
"Chetsford's hands are hardly clean in this respect. Numerous times they accused good faith editors of ignorance, incompetence, and bias" (Obviously, that's not true. But, for purposes of deescalation I'd suggest this un-diffed claim be let to lay.) Chetsford (talk) 23:25, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
I'm going to need to see diffs supporting the various accusations here: vote-stacking, canvassing, bad-faith nomination, Chetsford making accusations, editors making policy-based arguments in a deletion discussion. Drawing the line between good participation in a discussion and bludgeoning is always going to be difficult, and I doubt there's a bright-line rule that would ever be workable. It's up to the closing administrator to evaluate the discussion, and if they err we all know where deletion review is. Otherwise, I don't see that there's much to be done here. Mackensen(talk)23:54, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
I meant to write "Chetsford had [been] hand picked and invited to the AfD by name.[396]" up there. Maybe the missing word typo made it hard to notice. From the diffs above, you see a nomination that doesn't even nominate the article for deletion. Claiming to "have no strong opinion" yet posting scores of times arguing to delete the article? It's a bad faith pose, pretending to be aloof and objective while being so motivated to prosecute a case that they've recruited allies and slandered the opposition. Chetsford provided an example of casting aspersions on all who disagree right here; scroll up: "burner accounts and the reanimation of dormant accounts making vague waves". That's AGF? That's not personal attacks? Chetsford provided diffs of my posts about his accusation of WP:POINTy editing, wherein I offered the very diffs he said I didn't provide. When an admin says you're disrupting Wikipedia to make a point, they're threatening to ban or block you. Chetsford treats all who disagree as illegitimate and up to no good in some way.
Dmehus called other editors illegitimate at least six times [397][398][399][400][401][402], while pretending to "respectfully disagree" [403][404]. Fake show of respect while flinging insults? Bad faith.
A community ban on Dmehus repeating the same point more than once in a given discussion (allowing one repeat is reasonable, and more enforceable) is a necessary solution. I don't expect anyone to stand up to Chetsford. I only point out his behavior in Dmehus's defense. I don't blame him as much given the circumstances. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 00:31, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
I saw the mention of Chetsford being invited, but as I understand it he was already involved in the article, so that's not really canvassing and I assumed you meant something else. Regarding bad-faith, I'm not seeing what you're seeing and would appreciate a further explanation. The nomination explicitly questions whether the subject is notable while noting an ongoing conflict-of-interest. "No indication of any significant coverage" indicates a line of thinking which gets developed throughout the discussion. I suppose it could be construed as disingenous, but I'm having a hard time seeing bad faith. The diffs you provide which you characterize as Dmehus calling other editors "illegitimate" don't appear to do that; rather, he's indicating that he disagrees with their interpretations of the relevant policies and guidelines. That's a normal thing to see during a deletion discussion, and I see no personal attacks. Saying that someone's argument is "unsubstantiated by policy or evidence" is an expression of opinion and one to be evaluated by the closing administrator (who apparently agreed to some extent).
I think we're at the nub of the matter here: "When an admin says you're disrupting Wikipedia to make a point, they're threatening to ban or block you." That's an extreme construction, especially when you put that proposition to the administrator in question and they expressly disclaim any such intention. In the context of Talk:Erica C. Barnett assuming that Chetsford was threatening to block you when he characterized a proposed edit as POINTY strikes me as a significant overreaction and misunderstanding on your part. I'm going to quote the full passage here for the benefit of non-administrators:
First, it's not a "minority of the sources". Second, WP:DUE calls for all significant viewpoints to be represented and does not differentiate majority, minority, or plurality views. To your question, "do you have any objection to adding "newspaper reporter", "newspaper editor", "radio commentator" etc", I'll defer comment except to say such an edit — within the context of the preceding — would be WP:POINTY in the extreme. You'll have to judge for yourself whether or not that would be a wise edit to make.
I suppose that could be construed as a block threat, but I don't read it that way. Chetsford was involved in the discussion; to paraphrase, it would have been most unwise for him to block you under the circumstances. I think most people who use "POINTY" in conversation are trying to gently suggest that you're (in their view) taking an unreasonable, if not absurd position. It's not a block threat. WP:POINT is a guideline and carries no special weight nor status in that regard. Dmehus may have bludgeoned editors, but you've lost perspective on this issue and probably need to take a step back. Best, Mackensen(talk)00:55, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
A dozen other editors had been involved with the same article. Why pick only one or two? It's obvious from the editing which POV the hand picked !votes will support. Nobody who hadn't been critical of the subject, or questioned the subject's notability, was invited. The edit history showed them responding to talk page and article edits; obviously using their watchlist, which would have told them of the existence of the AfD. Why make the extra effort to invite known allies by name? It's exactly what the canvassing rules are there to prevent. It only adds to the reasons to question the legitimacy of the AfD outcome. You invite an admin by name, known to share your opinions, and they proceed to put their thumb on the scale, as expected. And everybody else is supposed to look at that and think it's an evenhanded result?
The core of this is that this discussion was filled with bludgeoning and badgering. The reason bludgeoning is a problem is that it poisons the process. It drives participants away. Several editors said they agreed with the stated keep rationale, but that was discounted on the grounds that they didn't satisfy the endless questions from the baderging. People see a wall of text and they don't want to read it all, or wade in and get attacked for daring to disagree. Who wants an admin with a grudge against you?
"When an admin says you're disrupting Wikipedia to make a point, they're threatening to ban or block you." No one ever mentioned the word "block" in relation to POINTY (or at all) except you. You replied to Dmheus' very pleasant post on your Talk page in which he said "Hoping we can resolve this amicably as I appreciate your contributions to the discussions and your editing."[405] by shooting back that he was being WP:POINTY and that you were planning to seek to have him "sanctioned with at least a formal warning, if not a block or topic ban"[406]. With respect, this (combined with your history of claims and counter-claims at ANI) is why I think you're using the rather baseless assertion you're being bullied as a debating tactic. Despite the fact I reassured you three times after the fact that your suddenly conjured belief you were being bullied was without basis (and even, after you construed my reassurance as, itself, bullying, directed you to resources you could access such as the Trust & Safety Office, CHAT or ANI) you continued to claim — in increasingly heated (and, frankly, hysterical) tones — that my comment constituted: (a) "aspersions"[407], (b) "bullying"[408], (c) "harassing"[409], (d) "failure to assume good faith"[410], (e) "condescending"[411], (f) "snide condescension"[412], (g) "insulting"[413], (h) "trivializing"[414], (i) "childish"[415], (j) "personal attacks"[416], and concluded with (k) "nobody in their right mind would want to chat with you"[417]. As you obviously know, WP:ADMINACCT would have precluded me from blocking you even if it had been warranted, which it was not (indeed, I've only blocked one account - an IP editor - in my life; I doubt I even remember how). Your comments in and out of that AfD, in which you bark and bite at people directing polite comments towards you and conflate rather vanilla policy notes as proof of the persecution and bullying you're supposedly enduring, makes you come across a bit like a bull in a china shop if I can be frank. Chetsford (talk) 03:40, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
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I am reporting about many vandalism going around on today's feature topic Chesapeake. If possible locking the wiki for extended users to edit seems to be a good idea. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.77.231.231 (talk) 22:48, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
2. It looks like you linked the wrong article. You were editing at USS Chesapeake (1799), and the account that was vandalizing is already blocked. I tossed a warning on the page for the IP address that continued disruption after the block, but an admin might want to decide if that deserves to be whacked for block evasion. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite23:07, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
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Can an administrator please review this editor's contributions? They've been editing disruptively for a long while now at TV Land. For the last month, the user appears to have repeatedly reverted to an old version of the page, then would immediately revert the page back:
The first in the series of disruptive edits appears to be this diff from November 8: [418]. The following day and after a number of intervening edits, the editor essentially reverted the page back: [419]. This continued over and over again over the next month. The first couple times are documented with the following diffs:
[421], subsequently reverted by another editor [422]
For subsequent diffs, please see the edit history of the page in question. See particularly the edits since November 12. Some of the reversions back and forth were done by IPs. In total, I see roughly 24 or so pairs of reversions -- this disruptive behavior makes up most of the page's history during the last month.
An editor gave Fullerplace67 a warning on November 9 [423]. The editor responded, "So does it mean that i will never do that again and read?" [424]
I followed up with a warning on November 15[425], which the editor responded, "OK just I will never do that again?"[426]. The editor continued reverting the page back and forth.
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Hi administrators, requesting someone warn Blackshod for this personal attack in their edit summary, after I placed a notice on their page informing them why their cut/paste move was reverted. Cheers, Polyamorph (talk) 09:05, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
The user has been warned of DS and has engaged on Talk sufficiently to know that these edits do not enjoy consensus. I don't mind if this is converted to a TBAN or something, some of the earlier edits were productive but pretty much everything since the start of the year, if not earlier, has been terribly sourced, fringe or in some other way unhelpful. Guy (help!) 13:12, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
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MicahZoltu registered in 2009. To date, he has amassed 38 mainspace edits, mostly to an article where he has a credibly identified conflict of interest (as spotted by David Gerard). His edits include edit-warring self-sourced promotional material (repeated three times in <24h), original research and synthesis (with added extra referenciness that doesn't actually support the text). Both the latter on the likely COI article.
The balance of his 177 edits as of right now are talk page edits (again mostly the apparent COI) and a new strand of Wikipedia space edits chastising us for our interpretation of policy. I think it would be an idea if he were temporarily restricted from the probable COI and from Project space, at least until he's edited enough articles to understand how Wikipedia works, because right now his idiosyncratic interpretations of policy appear on the face of it to be driven more by personal animus than by understanding of Wikipedia norms, including this proposal which would, as written, prevent the removal of BLP violations if drawn from sources we have deprecated for fabrication.
I agree they are not, as yet, being particularly helpful; but they've only—notwithstanding the apparent tenure—been editing since November this year, so it's probably the usual intersection of over-eagerness and inexperience (and overconfidence in their own understanding perhaps). ——SN5412913:36, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
Subsequent disclosure: apologies, I thought I knew the handle from somewhere, and I now see (from their talk) that I encountered them at Roosh V, where indeed their editing was sub-optimal: non-neutral presentation of material, edit-warring through multiple warnings, addition of original research...etc. So yeah, more inclined towards JzG's report than previously. ——SN5412913:40, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
I acknowledge I have made mistakes while editing Wikipedia and that not all of my edits are of encyclopedic quality. I have learned a lot in terms of Wikipedia policy and guidelines over the past two weeks and I try to engage in talk page discussion anytime there is a back and forth.
For the edit warring citation mentioned above, you will see that my first revert included a comment indicating why I believed David Gerard revert was uncalled for. David then reverted without discussion or extended comment. I then reverted again and started a discussion on the talk page, linking to the talk discussion in the revert comment. From there discussion occurred and I learned about a policy I wasn't previously aware of (yay for discussion!). I still believed there was value in some of the content and that the revert was overall a poor choice, so I reverted again after posting some additional discussion. In hindsight, I probably should have been the bigger person and waited a day or two before reverting again, rather than trying to push my belief of policy through via repeated reverts as other editors were doing. While I believe that I could have done better in this engagement (don't sink to opponents level), I do not believe that anything I did there was against policy (e.g., didn't violate 3RR).
I acknowledge that the Augur edits were poorly cited. There is discussion happening elsewhere that I would like to resolve prior to re-submitting that edit with additional citations.
There is a COIN discussion ongoing at for a anyone who wants to read up on the status of that or get involved. There is currently a disagreement as to who has a COI, and how much of a COI.
"The balance of his 177 edits as of right now are talk page edits This sounds like proper behavior." I tried to make some edits and fix things that I thought were wrong, there was disagreement so I engaged in discussion on talk pages rather than getting into an edit war. To me this sounds like appropriate and expected behavior of a Wikipedia editor.
I definitely don't think that someone should be punished for engaging in Village Pump proposals. If you read the linked Village Pump proposal, you can even see that I changed my stance later on in the proposal after some people made some good arguments and further discussion occurred.
Given the supplied evidence, this proposal feels frivolous at best, and an attempted attack against someone you disagree with at worst. It is suggesting administrative action should be taken because I supplied some low quality changes, tried to engage in discussion on talk pages, and got involved in community wide discussions on policy. Further, as an administrator I believe JzG should know better than to file an ANI against someone for having a content disagreement that turns into a lengthy and productive Talk discussion and for a relatively "new" user engaging in site policy discussions. Micah Zoltu (talk) 14:23, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
MicahZoltu, there you go again, offering the benefit of your <200 edit experience. The question of David's "COI" in respect of crypto is long settled: he doesn't have one. He's an expert in the subject who appears to have come to be one through his participation here, rather than the other way around.
I am not suggesting you are punished. I am suggesting you are restricted from wasting the community's time until you know enough to make proposals that aren't dangerously ill-informed. Guy (help!) 14:24, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
Regarding the Roosh_V edits, once again I don't believe my edits go against any policy or are anything other than a content dispute. It should be noted that on that page I have posted some discussion on the talk page and neither David Gerard, JzG, nor Serial Number 54129 have engaged. All three have instead only reverted the change with minimal comment and no talk discussion.
I believe this is a good example of the problem, I am trying to make changes that others disagree with, and I have tried to engage on Talk pages extensively (which is why my commits are mostly on Talk pages) while others are reverting without discussion. Micah Zoltu (talk) 14:28, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
While it's normally expected editors should join a discussion if one is open, it doesn't have to me immediate. And editors should not be getting into an edit war just because others have not yet joined the discussion. Maybe more to the point, it's fairly resonable that editor's can't be bothered getting into a discussion when there's little to discuss. Since you started to edit that article [439], it has had this "having ties to the Alt-right.[13]" (which you didn't remove). 13 is this source [440] which does indeed mention such ties. You don't seem to have noticed this source since you did not discuss it. There also seems to be multiple sources for misogyny later in the article. Meanwhile I see zero sources for "conservatism". (Maybe they are there but I see no way to gather it from your edits.) So you were trying to change sourced labels, to unsourced ones. Nil Einne (talk) 15:22, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
It appears that you have engaged on the subject over at the appropriate talk page, and if others would like to join it should happen over there. As far as behavioral problems related to this issue, I agree that editors should be given time to respond. You will note that the reverts of others did not include any attempts at discussion, but each of my reverts included attempts at discussion. I should have probably waited more than 5 minutes before reverting Serial Number 54129's revert, to see if they were just taking some time to type up a Talk page comment (they were not, but I couldn't have known that at the time). Claiming that I am the problem when I am attempting to illicit engagement from other editors and the other editors are merely reverting without discussion feels quite against Wikipedia's policies/guidelines/ethos which all encourage civil discourse when there is disagreement and discourage silent edit warring. Micah Zoltu (talk) 15:39, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
I see Micah as hopeless, or at least a net detriment to the project. It's the usual mixture of passive/aggressive behavior we see in some users, whom we are therefore reluctant to block because they don't seem "malicious". I've tried holding his hand, and it all came to nothing but a stubborn refusal to learn and a continuous interposition in areas of the project for which he lacks any experience or understanding. I would recommend a NOTHERE block.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:32, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
What valid report? AFAICT, the report you cited was invalid as the only violation was long stale when you reported it. Making a single stale report is not generally a big deal, but failing to understand this even after explanation could be. Nil Einne (talk) 15:09, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
"Valid report" meaning that I was correct that a person was edit warring. It was a very poorly constructed report due to being a WP:NOOB, which I learned after talking to Bbb23. You will notice that I have not filed another edit warring report since then, which suggests that I have learned (or at the least there is no evidence that I have failed to learn). It is also worth noting that even if you ignore the stale incidents, the edit warring incident report was still valid because of the 1RR sanction on that section. I dropped the case due to the recommendation of Bbb23. Micah Zoltu (talk) 15:29, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
Are we supposed to congratulate you because you have not filed another edit-warring report? Yet, as you acknowledge, although you put an unjustified positive spin on your actions, you commented at an ANEW report that had zero to do with you. Why would you, an inexperienced user with so many problems understanding policy, do such a thing? And, as I stated, when I removed your comment, it was pointless in that it was irrelevant and a distraction. And here you are wikilawyering this to death.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:41, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
I suspect your question was rhetorical, but since this is an "official hearing" I will respond none the less. My above comments were intended to show that the evidence you referred to (but failed to link to) did not support the claim of "failing to learn". My hope would be that people reading this would ignore unsubstantiated claims like you made here (you provided no evidence, just made a claim), but I understand that human biases exist and seeing an undisputed claim may lead to the reader to giving it undue weight. My comment on the ANEW was an attempt to assist. Generally, when I get involved in an open project like this I like to try to "give back" to compensate for what I have "taken" in terms of time. I saw a situation that I believed (and still believe) I could help and thereby reduce administrator load, so I joined in. Micah Zoltu (talk) 15:53, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
I have had way more patience than I usually have with editors of this sort, but another several thousand words of querulous talk page discussion is a waste of my and everyone's time. Micah doesn't understand quite basic things even when repeated. His suggestions concerning appropriate Wikipedia sourcing look very like a push for open slather on dodgy references in the crypto articles - perhaps not his intent, but really obviously the effect. I concur with JzG's suggestion of restriction on project-space edits, and suggest a topic ban under WP:GS/Crypto on cryptocurrencies and blockchains, broadly construed - which any uninvolved admin can decide upon - David Gerard (talk) 17:00, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
At the very least they should be indefinitely topic banned from blockchain and cryptocurrencies, broadly construed. The retaliatory thread below probably justifies an additional block of some period - maybe a week or so, to make it clear that the next one will be indef. MER-C18:59, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
Starting to support that Tban. Still think an indef is an over-reaction at this point; they may well be a salvageable editor although I'm less optimistic as I was. The thread below, rightly described as retaliatory, is not a good sign. I have a feeling that the deafness is strong in this one. Still, short sharp shocks can = WP:ROPE I suppose. ——SN5412919:14, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
I have blocked MicahZoltu for one week for disruptive, tendentious editing after reading several of the conversations they have been involved with. At this point, I recommend that editors either support or oppose a topic ban on blockchain and cryptocurrency, broadly construed. I support that topic ban. Cullen328Let's discuss it19:47, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
@Cullen328: If you support a topic ban, why don't you simply impose it? It doesn't require a discussion. Although I believe the ban is warranted, I also believe that in a perverse way it will give the user more time to misbehave in other areas of the project, as he has already, which is why I'm in favor of an indefinite block, but I seem to be alone in that, so... --Bbb23 (talk) 20:43, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
Bbb23, I understand your point and know that I have that power, but I am seeking broader consensus for the topic ban. If the editor begins misbehaving when the block expires, I will certainly join you in supporting an indefinite block at that time. Cullen328Let's discuss it20:50, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
Support topic-ban. Just reading over the COI/N thread, his arguments seem to amount in sum to a Chewbacca defence, and in my experience this sort of thing is something in-the-weeds editors tend to do if they can't directly answer the allegations made without admitting guilt. —A little blue Boriv^_^vOnward to 202021:17, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
Let's see if he is better after the one week ban. Maybe he will cool down a bit and later be a productive editor. Not sure of that as it seems an effort by Micah to wikilawyer in changes, and doesn't stop at it. The main issue being it is all WP:1AM edits, and nobody else seems to care if some extra services are added to the respective pages. I would suggest to Micah he cool off and come back in a month. Wikipedia is a place of slow and incremental improvements. I think I would like to see a persistent violation of the same issues after the 1 week ban to support an indefinite TBAN. The thing is that as is pointed out above his edits are not just limited to crypto, he is also doing the same thing (apparently) at the Roosh V article (which I guess this Roosh article has nothing to do with crypto). So hopefully Micah just cools down and learns the protocols at wikipedia and becomes a valuable editor, we can always use more editors. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 04:49, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
Support the tban, obvs. Also support indef. It takes quite a bit of effort to get Bbb23 to write you off as a hopeless case. Guy (help!) 17:08, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
Support indef, or if there's no consensus for that a tban, for never having done anything here but promote a company they work for. - Tom | Thomas.W talk17:46, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
David Gerard Repeatedly adding my name to COI list without COIN support.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I disagreed that I had a COI so I removed my name from the list and asked him to not re-add me in the comment and talk page and suggested that perhaps a COIN filing would be appropriate if he felt strongly.
Calton added me again and David finally filed a COIN. At this point I was content leaving my name in the COI list until the COIN was complete. It felt appropriate to basically step away and not touch the Augur article or the COI list until the COIN was resolved.
JzGinitiated a deletion process for the Augur project page, which is fine (I think it is a frivolous case but anyone can propose an article for deletion).
David then added a comment to the Augur deletion request page casting WP:ASPERSIONS on my statements (which were just stating facts) saying I had a Conflict of Interest and pointing to my name being in the COI list as support for that.
I deleted my name from the COI list again, providing my reasoning being that its presence was inappropriately being used to cast aspersions on my statements elsewhere.
Since the first claim of COI was made by David, I have made no edits to the Augur project page. I do not intend to make edits until the COIN is resolved.
Proposed Immediate Resolution: Leave my name on the COI list until the COIN discussion is complete and remove David's comments about my conflict of interest along with my rebuttal from the Augur deletion page.
Long term solution: I think this behavior exhibited by David is incredibly childish for an administrator and does not represent the values that Wikipedia administrators are expected to embody. Once the COIN was filed the situation was cooling down due and discussions elsewhere were making progress. I was perfectly content following the appropriate process, letting the COIN play out, and respecting the COIN resolution. I believe that David's actions are basically an attempt to kick the hornets nest and get me to engage in behavior that would be unbecoming of a Wikipedia editor (such as my response to his deletion page comment and me once again deleting myself from the COI list). I would like to propose that David be reprimanded for this behavior in a way that makes it clear that this behavior is very much not acceptable for an administrator. I think it is important that it be made clear to Wikipedia administrators that this sort of behavior is inappropriate for Wikipedia, and most definitely inappropriate for an administrator.
I have many more grievances with David's behavior on Wikipedia, but I was not planning on filing anything until some ongoing discussions have fully resolved as they seem to be making positive progress. I am filing this now because I believe this particular behavior he is engaging in is worthy of a somewhat swift remedial action (see Proposed Immediate Resolution above). Micah Zoltu (talk) 18:55, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
A user called Feoffer is going around Wikipedia and eliminating all references to articles by Massimo Introvigne and works published by CESNUR. He also claims I have a conflict of interest with respect to Introvigne and CESNUR. I deny this, but this is immaterial for the present discussion.
Feoffer is eliminating references to material written by Introvigne or published by CESNUR included by editors other than me as well.
He has quoted sources dating back to the “cult wars” describing Introvigne and CESNUR as defenders of “cults.” From this he derives the idea that everything past present or future written by Introvigne or other CESNUR scholars should disappear from Wikipedia.
I may agree that some pieces written during the cult controversies of the 1990s may be polemical rather than scholarly and that as for all authors, the quality of hundreds is articles and dozens of books by Introvigne is uneven. However, Feoffer’s actions are eliminating valid information on a massive scale.
Eg he has eliminated here [441] a reference to an article by Introvigne in a primary Portuguese academic journal. Here [442] he has eliminated a reference to a CESNUR research project co-managed by University of Turin and published by the leading Italian academic press. And so on ad nauseam.
Presumably he eliminated articles he didn’t even read.
I do not claim that every word Introvigne wrote or CESNUR published is RS. But a lot is. In the conclusions of the standard textbook on the history of the scholarly study of new religious movements, American academic W. Michael Ashcraft, not affiliated with CESNUR that I know of, writes that “the largest outlet currently supporting research on NRMs is the Center for Studies on New Religions...the CESNUR website is a cornucopia of information on hundreds of NRMs.” Professor Ashcraft also calls Introvigne “one of the most influential scholars on NRM studies today” due to his “endless capacity to produce quality scholarship” (W. Michael Ashcraft, “ A Historical Introduction to the Study of New Religious Movements,” London: Routledge 2018, 236 - the page is accessible through Google Books; for an example of reviews hailing Ashcraft’s as an authoritative book see [443]).
Another example of how Introvigne is assessed by scholars in the 21st century is Professor Per Faxneld’s review of his massive book on Satanism in the book review journal of the American Academy of Religion at [444]. Introvigne is described as “among the founding fathers of the field of Satanism studies. Introvigne is not only that, of course, but also one of the major names in the study of new religions in general.”
Introvigne’s book “The Plymouth Brethren” has been published by Oxford University Press in 2018 and again favorably reviewed (eg in [445] where Introvigne is defined as “widely known for his work on new religious movements and as the managing director of the influential Center for Studies on New Religions (CESNUR).”
I can go on and on with quotes from academics but it is obvious that Introvigne and CESNUR are considered in general as RS in the academic community.
Feoffer has also eliminated all quotes from Bitter Winter, a bulletin on religion in China edited by Introvigne, as not RS. Interestingly, the US State Department’s last yearly report on religious liberty in its section on China quotes Bitter Winter 15 times. See [446]. It is obviously a RS for the US State Department. It is also often mentioned by mainline media.
Worse, Feoffer eliminated everything scholars published in “The Journal of CESNUR.” While as for any journal some articles are better than others, it is not yet indexed only because it started publication recently but its founders who formed its first board are well-known scholars [447] including Eileen Barker, Antoine Faivre and J. Gordon Melton. Feoffer has cancelled articles by university professors just because they were published by CESNUR.
I do not want to argue about motivations but clearly this behavior should be stopped, and the fact that, possibly with the exception of some early pieces of controversy, CESNUR and Introvigne are RS in their field. Aidayoung (talk) 14:16, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
Aidayoung, I really like Feoffer as a user. Although I often disagree with him, he's always open to level-headed discussion, which I appreciate. I do have to admit that he has been on a tear against CESNUR recently and I think he should carefully reconsider his trend of blanket removal of CESNUR or CESNUR-related citations. May His Shadow Fall Upon You ● 📧14:44, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
For what it's worth, there's nothing 'blanket' or simple about cleaning up onwiki promotion. You can't just search all and hit delete, you have to actually examine how and in some cases even who inserted the material. Feoffer (talk) 01:41, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
I'm not quite sure why I was pinged here. All I did was link, without commenting, to the most recent discussion of this that I could find, to inform this discussion. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:37, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
True, any paper indexed by Google which remotely looks like an academic paper gets indexed by Google Scholar. Even this paper of ro:Lorin Fortuna, which talks about snake-illian and gorillian civilizations, among other civilizations (which belong to either esotericism or systematized delirium, take your pick). Tgeorgescu (talk) 20:13, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
So, you see, any biased hack could publish at Google Scholar. Otherwise, publications by Introvigne at Routledge, Oxford University Press and Giunti Editore (one of the oldest publishing houses in the world) should not be conflated with CESNUR. CENSUR has been criticized as an advocacy group—I'm not saying that it is true or false, just that there is criticism of it. On the other hand, if we compare CESNUR with the Satanism moral panic, CESNUR is definitely the reliable outlet.
This discussion is obviously largely governed by opinions on "cults." However, user Feoffer has eliminated everything referencing Introvigne and CESNUR authors even when their work has been published by indexed journals such as the Journal of Religion and Violence and presses well-known for their rigorous peer-review process such as Brill and Oxford University Press. This is beyond any acceptable policy, given also the evaluations by Introvigne/CESNUR in the academic community I have mentioned above. One should also not confuse criticism of CESNUR/Introvigne 20 years ago and CESNUR as it is now. Associations and scholars go from the first steps to maturity just as everybody else. Aidayoung (talk) 15:43, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
My understanding is that Wikipedia precedent long predating me has held CESNUR is not a reliable source. It would appear that CESNUR has engaged in a sustained campaign of WP:PROMOTION here. I've tried to cleanup some references to CESNUR that seemed promotional or otherwise inappropriate, while still preserving the valid references to CESNUR. Feoffer (talk) 19:26, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
As I mentioned many time, it is not my intention to start a flame war with you, Feiffer, who may have made valid contributions to Wikipedia. I do not find any consensus that CESNUR is not a reliable source, but perhaps there is some confusion about what CESNUR means here. CESNUR may mean in fact different sources - perhaps this distinction may help us to come to an agreement.
1. An old discussion in Wikipedia referred to polemical articles published by CESNUR (mostly criticizing Stephen Kent) during the “cult wars.” Several users disputed that these articles were RS although a proper consensus was perhaps not really reached. This discussion referred to articles published in CESNUR’s Web site at cesnur.org, which appears to be a repository of very different material, some speeches given in CESNUR conferences and some simple updates and notes. I would agree that texts published there should be examined on a case by case basis. Some date back to more than twenty years ago and some are recent. Some are rough drafts of speeches given at conferences, some occasional notes, etc.
2. Recent, inconclusive discussions concern The Journal of CESNUR. It is a novel journal, which started its publication in 2017. It is not or perhaps not yet indexed and does not carry the authority of indexed journals. Waiting for possible indexing, it appears to me that eliminating all articles published there is abusive. The Journal has a peer review policy [448]. You can declare that anything coming from CESNUR is suspicious but I doubt the founders of the Journal, most of whom are quite well-known scholars [449] would risk their reputation by declaring peer reviewed something that isn’t. I can agree with you that some articles were worse than others but this happen with all journals, including the most famous ones. At any rate The Journal of CESNUR is a new journal, its board is different from CESNUR’s board, and any criticism referred to the CESNUR Web site (the more so to articles published ten or even twenty years ago) cannot apply to it automatically. As mentioned in the Eastern Lightning talk page, you eg deleted all references to articles by Professor Holly Folk, a credentialed academic, only because they were published in The Journal of CESNUR.
3. In 2018, CESNUR started publishing Bitter Winter. Again, apart from Introvigne, contributors to Bitter Winter (mostly Chinese) are different from contributors to the CESNUR Web site. As mentioning earlier, the U.S. Department of State considered Bitter Winter a RS on China and quoted it 15 times in its latest report on religious liberty in China [450]. I can go on and quote several mainline media using Bitter Winter as RS but do not want to be too long. You have eliminated many references to Bitter Winter articles just because they came from Bitter Winter. Again, comments on texts that appeared on CESNUR’s web site many years ago cannot automatically extend to Bitter Winter. Interestingly, you deleted all references to Bitter Winter, Introvigne and other CESNUR scholars in the Eastern Lightning article. I just came across a report by the Immigration and Refugee Board of Canada, a government agency, at [451] on Eastern Lightning. While it duly notes that corroborating information could not be found due to the fact that many primary sources are inaccessible, you will note that the Board, looking for expert on Eastern Lightning sought the assistance of the “ Director, Center for Studies on New Religions (CESNUR)” - obviously Introvigne - and other scholars explicitly mentioned as associated with CESNUR. Here, we have authors considered as RS by a government on a very obscure and difficult matter but eliminated by you from Wikipedia as not RS just because of where they publish their articles.
4. Finally, “CESNUR” may mean the directors and board members of CESNUR, including its co-founder Massimo Introvigne. You have eliminated a number of texts by Massimo Introvigne claiming there is a consensus that everything he wrote or writes is not RS. There is no such a consensus, although I may agree that among a large number of articles some may be of lower quality. Also, scholars and organizations evolve and Introvigne has written its most acclaimed books in English in the last 4-5 years. You have cancelled references to texts by Massimo Introvigne en masse, even not published by CESNUR, including some published by undoubtedly peer-reviewed presses and indexed journals. The problem here is that the academic community may be divided on issues such as “cults” or Scientology, but a book reviewed as a crucial reference for the history of the study of new religious movements assesses Introvigne as “one of the most influential scholars on NRM studies today” due to his “endless capacity to produce quality scholarship,” as mentioned before, and other academics I have quoted agree. Not only RS but according to these scholarly sources, one of the most authoritative RS in his field! I believe that this is not necessarily contradicting the early negative judgement by Professor Kent, as they may refer to different works. Kent and Introvigne were barking a lot at each other back then, but the other sources I quote are assessing Introvigne as the mature scholar he is now, with two books published by leading academic publishers in English in his bibliography, not the “young Turk” described by Kent almost twenty years ago.
5. You have also cancelled several texts published in the encyclopedia World Religions and Spirituality Project, apparently because you and some other editors concluded that an article published by this encyclopedia by Introvigne on Oleg Maltsev was not reliable. I do not want to revisit that specific controversy. It may well be that some articles in WRSP are worse than others (or that Introvigne is so busy that as all “influential scholars” do he may sign texts written by research assistants), but if you look at the index of WRSP you will see that it includes several hundred entries, mostly by tenured professors, most of them without any relations with CESNUR. You have eliminated several articles by WRSP without the analysis you at least made for the Maltsev article, meaning that just because you found one article there you judged of inferior quality (among hundreds) you have decided that the whole huge encyclopedia is not a RS.
I and others here do not dispute that some texts written by Introvigne or his CESNUR colleagues are of lower quality and hence not RS. But given the current prevailing assessment of Introvigne in the academic community studying new religions as “one of the most influential scholars” in this field, solid reasons should be given before eliminating references to his texts, the more so when they are published in peer-reviewed journals and presses.
I hope this matter may be solved amicably but should invite Feoffer to revisit the edits he made and revert those where the only reason he cancelled valuable information was a connection to Introvigne, CESNUR, The Journal of CESNUR or Bitter Winter. Aidayoung (talk) 20:20, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
The war against the Journal of CESNUR in WP is definitely inappropriate. This journal has good renowned academics publishing in it, and should be accepted as RS as any other of its kind. Then depending on the author of each article, and the content of it, various judgments may be made. But no general ban as it looks that some people would like. They entered in an ideological war, not an encyclopedic one, and it's a shame. Le luxembourgeois (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 09:04, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
Note that I indeffed the above user as a pretty clear sock of Aidayoung. Since they have been around since 2009, we probably have a bigger sockfarm than I thought. Likely Aidayoung must be indeffed as well, but I have no time no to file an SPI.--Ymblanter (talk) 09:10, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
After the recent discussions at ANI, it was hoped Aida might follow a self-imposed topic ban to assuage COI concerns, but that seems not to be the case. Feoffer (talk) 01:37, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
I believed some common sense may be injected here...
You keep repeating that including positive comments on Introvigne or CESNUR is promotion while what you do (collecting and including all negative comments wherever you find them) and including them in Wikipedia is "objective." You also did not answer why you are systematically deleting all references to Introvigne's and CESNUR's work even when it is published in peer-reviewed journals, and why criticism to articles published by CESNUR twenty years ago should justify your systematic deletion of everything published in "The Journal of CESNUR."
Btw, I just came across Ashcraft's book in my university library. If I was Introvigne's "secretary" or "paid agent," presumably I would have known of that book published in 2018 and used it long ago. The book deals with his specialized field and it would be strange Introvigne did not know of it. Ashcraft has no association with CESNUR and his book was reviewed inter alia by University of Sydney's Carole Cusack as "highly recommended to all interested in the history of the academic study of religion and in new religions in particular. It is warmly commended as an excellent work." See [458].Aidayoung (talk) 04:15, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
Oh dear lord. Is this a joke? Nobody cares about your university library, and nobody has any way of verifying what you should or shouldn't have already know about... This is just tissue-thin nonsense. You added a cherry-picked quote from an obscure source to support a very specific, very flattering perspective you've been injecting into articles for several years. With only a handful of exceptions, all of your edits have been closely connected to this person and his work. All we can verify is your activity. We cannot know when you became aware of something in some library somewhere. You behavior has been overwhelmingly focused on padding-out minutia in service of this one person and his project. Trying to spin this book's publication date as proof of something or other only proves you're willing to play facile games to promote this person's work. Grayfell (talk) 05:34, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
Feoffer, Ah, an "independent scholar". I suppose there are examples where that parses as something other than crank, but I have yet to see one. Guy (help!) 11:02, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
You are the one who brought it up. It doesn't matter if it won the Nobel Prize for Hagiography, the problem is that you have wasted a lot of time on these TL:DR posts defending this one lawyer and his publishing work, and have constantly changed the subject whenever anyone points out the red flags this raises. The Ashcraft book is yet another deflection. It proves nothing about your behavior, and bringing it up makes this tedious wall of text even longer, meaning it's even less likely anyone will bother to read it. You have been adding unacceptably promotional content to these articles for over a decade, so it's not unreasonable to ask you to explain this. Grayfell (talk) 06:37, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
I blocked for 31h for edit-warring, but the talk page suggeste that the user has been involved in long-term disruptive activity promoting obscure cults, and it should be seriously considered whether their further participation in the Russian Wikipedia would be beneficial.--Ymblanter (talk) 06:53, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
The user R9tgokunks is causing problems with the page List of longest-running United States television series. He keeps removing large chunks of material that has been included on the page for some time now. I have asked him to take his issues to pages to Talk page, but he refused to do so. Instead editing my own talk page several times and butchering his and my older edits in the process. Him just coming by and removing large chunks of information on the page right just is not helpful. He is refusing to engage with the people who are actively maintaining it. Please intervene to prevent his unhelpful activities. Thank you. dreiss2 (talk) 12:15, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Twitter is full of unsubstantiated rumors that Queen Elizabeth has died. I've blocked one vandal who tried to edit the article to say she's died. One attempt is not enough for semi-protection but more eyes on the article would be helpful. Cullen328Let's discuss it22:50, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
This is one of those cases where you can be reasonably sure the BBC will have it first. Up the protection to PC for 48h, do you think? Guy (help!) 23:30, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
Her article is already semi protected indefinitely. I don't think anything more is needed. This will blow over quickly (assuming there is nothing to the rumors). -Ad Orientem (talk) 23:37, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
I may be mistaken, but aren't the Lyndon LaRouche people also pretty sure that she's a drug-trafficking Reptilian alien? -Nunh-huh04:40, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
I wouldn't be completely sure about that, but just almost completely sure. If this ever happens, which I of course don't commit treason by imagining, I would expect the news not to be made public until relevant people such as the heir to the throne and the prime minister have been informed, so there's a window of opportunity for people such as medical staff who know the facts to tweet about it before the BBC publishes it. Having said that, we don't source Wikipedia to tweets. Phil Bridger (talk) 23:56, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
Unlike the fiasco in 1952, I am fairly certain that both the PM and the heir apparent are never out of communication and could be alerted very quickly if something happened. And there are elaborate plans for the public announcement down to the point where all of the normal presenters on the radio and TV news services hold periodic rehearsals for announcing the death of a senior member of the Royal Family. I read somewhere that the BBC even keeps a dark coat jacket and a black tie on hand... just in case. In the age of the internet and mobile phones, it's possible the news will leak before a formal announcement. But probably not by far. -Ad Orientem (talk) 00:59, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
It's also amazing what we can learn from reading an encyclopedia. I had thought that "imagining the death of the monarch" was still considered treason under the Treason Act 1795, but it seems that that provision was repealed in 1998. For over 20 years I've been expecting the early morning wake-up to take me to the Tower, but that worry was completely unnecessary. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:38, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
Similar rumors have popped up before and the Queen has always carried on. But I suspect that even she is somewhat surprised to still be alive. While I doubt she would ever abdicate, it would not shock me if at some point she "retired" from her ceremonial and constitutional duties allowing Charles to be proclaimed Prince Regent. -Ad Orientem (talk) 19:30, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
Are you sure about that? When I was looking for sources for my joke above, the very recent sources found suggested the retirement is a rumour coming from The Sun or Daily Mail who claim they got it from unnammed palace sources or courtiers. While it's fairly plausible, far more so than the claims she will abdicate at that time, I wouldn't trust such sources either. There are a heck of a lot of often contradictory rumours that seem to follow a similar pattern. (I mean we even get completely silly stuff which anyone with a basic understand of constitutional law of any of the Commonwealth Realms would know isn't plausible like claims she has decided to skip Charles and make William king.) And the retirement mill has been going on for ages. Nil Einne (talk) 13:48, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
As I understand it she was going to retire from public duties when she was 95 but would still remain monarch until death. All her life she has said she will never abdicate. Inside sources have said that they expect she will direct Charles to abdicate in favour of William but I think that's just speculation from people who know her. --AussieLegend (✉) 14:30, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
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Thank you. That's a harsh sentence, though, making me feel pity for that user now. But he did this to himself. Such nonsense can't be accepted, only disrupts productive work. Gray62 (talk) 13:42, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
Good block Looking back, this user has a long history of similar types of disruption. He shouldn't be able to say he didn't expect such a reaction. for a first offense, it would have been harsh. This is part of a clear pattern of behavior that needs to be changed. --Jayron3218:02, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
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ExtraEditing (talk·contribs) has been indiscriminately changing around companies, programs and subsidiaries related to Viacom and CBS Corporation to ViacomCBS over the last two weeks, even though the deal has both not closed (it won't until Thursday), and not even doing a bare check to see if it makes sense; for instance, Columbia House, which hasn't been owned by CBS since 1989 and is now a defunct company, had Category:Former ViacomCBS subsidiaries added to it, along with most of the companies in that category; as VCBS does not exist yet, it is completely impossible for it to have any former subsidiaries. This has continued for the last couple weeks with several editors, and although they backed off after being warned (or one IP just stopped editing), EE has continued unfettered, creating an issue where I feel my rolling back would be considered an abuse of the tool. They've also done several pagemoves to pages titled ViacomCBS without any discussion. Is it okay to roll back these edits, or should they just be undone and reverted manually? Nate•(chatter)18:34, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
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I have been developing some WP:CIR concerns about AndrewNatty (talk·contribs) over the past few days. I came across this user at this discussion at the Tea House, where a new editor was complaining that AndrewNatty had plagiarised a draft article they were working on and published it in the mainspace as their own work. On investigation, it turned out that AndrewNatty had indeed copied and pasted this user's draft into mainspace without the required attribution for copying withing Wikipedia. I tagged the new article and draft with {{copied}} templates to provide proper attribution and DESiegel later performed a history merge. (This article and this draft.) During this time, a number of editors tried to engage AndrewNatty on his talk page but without response - [465], [466], [467], [468]. AndrewNatty finally apologised on the user's talk page today.
When this was happening, I noticed a number of copyright notices on AndrewNatty's talk page and in particular noticed File:Tacha.jpg. AndrewNatty uploaded this image on 22 November without tagging it with a copyright licence ([469]). A bot then marked it as untagged ([470]); AndrewNatty tagged the file as {{PD-self}} 15 minutes later ([471]). However, I found the image on this website which seems to suggest that AndrewNatty never held the copyright to the image. I nominated the file for deletion on 1 December. Earlier today, AndrewNatty then added a {{Cc-by-sa-4.0}} tag to the file without engaging the concerns expressed at the deletion discussion or providing any evidence for this licencing. I have also just come across these four files uploaded by AndrewNatty - File:Timi Dakolo.jpg, File:Yemi Alade at the MTV awards 2016.jpg, File:Tachabbn.jpeg, File:Benard Odoh.jpg. I suspect that he does not own the copyright to them yet they are all marked as either PD or Cc-by-4.0 and two have Google search URLs listed as the source. After posting this I will be nominating them for deletion. These two incidents lead me to believe that AndrewNatty does not understand Wikipedia's policies around copyright and licencing and is not responding to editors who have tried to help him; this is becoming disruptive.
In addition, an article AndrewNatty created, Symply Tacha was nominated for deletion on 1 December. Instead of engaging in the deletion discussion, AndrewNatty tagged the page G7 and it was deleted by Fastily (deletion log). AndrewNatty then moved another draft he had worked on in AfC into the mainspace, replacing the article which was deleted as G7. I do not have access to the deleted revision of the page so cannot see how similar the new article is to the one G7 deleted; however, the article is about the same person and appears to have the same/similar issues to the original article nominated for deletion. The draft had been declined as an AfC submission almost two weeks ago for not being notable enough. The result was that the article was back in the mainspace without the AfD template. While I want to AGF with this user, it does look like he has tried to circumvent the deletion discussion by requesting deletion and replacing it with a draft. Again, people have tried to raise this with AndrewNatty, but without response ([472], [473]). I also notice that the same article was deleted on 25 August as created by a blocked or banned user in violation of their ban. I am not making an accusation of socking here because I don't know the circumstances of that older deletion; however, an admin who can view the deleted history of that page might be able to let us know if they are connected or not.
I am not advocating a block at this point but do think AndrewNatty needs to begin editing collaboratively and engaging with other users. I also suggest he needs to stop editing or uploading files until he has a better grasp of copyright. WJ94 (talk) 18:27, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
I have checked the deleted version of Symply Tacha as it was just before deletion. It uses the exact same cited sources in the exact same order as the version now in mainspace. I don't think it is byte-for-byte identical, but there is no significant difference between them that I noticed. If the first had been deleted by AfD, the second would be a valid G4 speedy in my view. I choose to assume good faith that this was not a knowing attempt to circumvent the deletion process, but it might as well have been. Predictably, it didn't work. AndrewNatty, the creator of the version now in mainspace, made the overwhelming majority of the edits to the deleted version, and tagged it for deletion under G7, user request. The earlier version was created by a now-blocked user User:Bigboss18, who made only two edits to it. DES(talk)DESiegel Contribs20:07, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
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I'm not targeting a specific editor, I'm just curious. Is it appropriate to revert edits made by an IP who is subsequently blocked for using a proxy? I'm referring specifically to an IP 195.191.241.12 that first popped up on my talk page tonight in the midst of a disagreement. He then started editing at List of The Grand Tour episodes and was subsequently blocked for using a proxy. Two of their edits have since been reverted by another editor.[474][475] Another editor asked if this was appropriate and the editor who removed the posts replied using WP:3RRNO:Reverting actions performed by banned users in violation of their ban, and sockpuppets of banned or blocked users as justification. That doesn't seem to apply though. Is it valid justification? --AussieLegend (✉) 14:10, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
In general, no it's not a sufficient basis to revert edits per se. Proxies can get blocked for all sorts of reasons, including none at all. Edits made by a user who is subsequently blocked for whatever reason are not per se made in violation of a block or ban, nor by a blocked or banned user, so the onus falls on the person employing that assertion to show how that is the case. One can simply ask, on the balance of probabilities, which block was being evaded when the edit was made? That said, any further edits are going to be more complicated to evaluate, so I'll refrain from opining about that in advance. -- zzuuzz(talk)14:41, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
As the editor who asked it, I was a little concerned if it was justified, considering the matter in the Editing War noticeboard concerned me. If he felt there was no justification, maybe he should have just closed it, rather than remove it?GUtt01 (talk) 15:01, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
GUtt01, I have semiprotected the article so this can safely be remitted to Talk. Consensus for the disputed content should be easy to assess. Guy (help!) 17:02, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
It's worth remembering that an IP address does not identify an individual like a User Account does - WP:BANREVERT does not apply here. Additionally, I believe it's actually pretty disruptive to blanket revert otherwise constructive edits. -- a they/them | argue | contribs15:07, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
Why was there not notification of this discussion to the editors involved? Two editors have been referred to in the initial post as "another editor", but no notification was sent to them, as is explicitly stated at the top of this noticeboard. -- /Alex/2122:22, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
You referred to other editors and linked their edits; it's therefore automatically about specific editors, there's no loophole for that, and you did not notify them. -- /Alex/2107:31, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
The box at the top of this page says "When you start a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on the editor's talk page." This discussion is not about an editor. No editors were named and only the diffs of one editor were used, purely as an example. Your recent posts here and elsewhere are bordering on harrassment. Please stop. --AussieLegend (✉) 07:51, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
AussieLegend - I actually did make the requested notifications on behalf of the original poster but I was reverted by 1 user and ignored by the other. TBH I don't see why the notification is necessary but the policy does seem broad enough to cover even editors who are briefly referenced. Michepman (talk) 01:50, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
You referred to other editors and linked their edits; it's therefore automatically about specific editors. Naming them as "another editor" is not a loophole for "not naming" editors; the instructions at Template:ANI-notice are very clear about "all editors who are merely involved". Follow the instructions next time, else convertly discussing other editors without notifying them can be considered harrassment. And exactly per our other discussion, you have another editor against your position, with no support for your own statements. Please listen to the advice given to you. Thank you. -- /Alex/2104:31, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
I referred to other editors but linked the diffs of only one and didn't name any. The template instructions say "all editors who are merely involved in a behavioral dispute (e.g. previous blocking administrators of blocked users) can and must also be notified." There was no dispute, behavioural or otherwise. It was a simple question. You need to give up and stop harrassing. Throwing that accusation against me when you can see the harrassment by you at Talk:List of The Grand Tour episodes just because I didn't respond to you in a timeframe that suited your schedule, is a really stupid thing to do. The question here has been answered, you were wrong to revert the IP in the manner that you did so there is no point continuing. Can an admin please close this discussion? --AussieLegend (✉) 05:12, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
And yet, no action was taken against me for reverting the IP, and it was clearly stated that such edits were acceptable "when the IP is an obvious sock". So, no, it wasn't as major an issue, nor is it as clear-cut, as you've come to believe; clearly not wrong at all. Next time you open an ANI thread, notify everyone that you refer to, as you've been told, again, by multiple editors. It's really that simple. -- /Alex/2105:45, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
And yet, no action was taken against me for reverting the IP - That's because no action was sought. As I said it was a general question, not a dispute or a report about a specific editor. You can't have it both ways.
it was clearly stated that such edits were acceptable "when the IP is an obvious sock". - Except that there is no evidence that it was a sock, even when looking at the edit history, and your justification was not that it was a sock but that it was a blocked IP, which it was not at the time that it made the edits. You really had no idea that it was a sock, (or maybe you did?) or you would have reverted with that justification. Please stop beating a dead horse. --AussieLegend (✉) 06:25, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
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Could someone take a look at User:Nazanin0009? They have sent the same message to hundreds of user talk pages asking for someone to do something about the Iranian internet blackout. The message is unclear what action is being requested. This looks like a large-scale campaign, and I don't think it is beneficial to the project. They have ben reported to WP:AVI already (not by me) but I don't think they are exactly a vandal or a spammer, but they probably should be stopped. The Mirror Cracked (talk) 07:33, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
It would probably be a good idea to block his IPv6 range to match the IPv4 block. His IP is so dynamic that he is virtually impossible to contact. Therefore, I wont leave the obligatory notification of this ANI report. —Wasell(T)08:48, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
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A few days ago, I was doing my daily work at copypatrol, when I see this edit toWes McKnight appear. I exanime it, it appears to be a pretty obvious copyright violation of this site, so I revert the edit and warn the user who made the edit, COLONEL77. I leave them a notice on copyright, observe that they've received previous warnings, watchlist their page, and then continue on at copypatrol as usual. A few days later, they respond IN ALL CAPS AT MY TALK PAGE, where they seem to imply they wrote the original article and that more than one person is running the account. They also ask that I email my response to them, but I decide not to because no non-public/embarrassing information is being discussed. I respond, imo pretty to the point and not incivil. They then respond with this, (once again in all caps) which spurred this report. I'm not really sure what to make of the response, except to note that it is unnecessarily rude and the the user doesn't seem to understand that just because something "APPEARS ON AT LEAST 5 OR 6 WEBS ALL OF WHICH YOU COULD HAVE FOUND IF YOU HAD JUST LOOKED" does not mean that it can be used on wikipedia. Some admin intervention/this user being explained how this website works would be appreciated. Thanks, 💵Money💵emoji💵Talk💸Help out at CCI!16:26, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
Colonel77 has at least 3 copyright notices on his page from three different articles. First from User:Vermont, where copyright was really well explained. The second one was from Diannaa, an administrator, no less and she explained a bit briefer, but still with enough links to drive the point home. The third was from you, which was a copy of the original template left by Vermont.
I really think Colonel isn't getting it at all. I hate to see an eager contributor be blocked, but given that copyright has been explained to him and given that he's chosen to not respond to anyone yet, except money emoji, and at that, rudely and he repeatedly refers to his account as us , indicating that the account is a shared account.. I'm kinda thinking a block would be in order.
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Apologies if this is the wrong place to post this. This is regarding the continuous subtle vandalism by multiple IPs over the course of several weeks from what I believe to be a single individual. Note that the IPs above aren't an exhaustive list, but rather the ones that I could immediately gather. They all have similar editing habits which include:
Hugely inflating or inventing combatant numbers in battles,[476][477][478]
Creating false relationships between historical figures,[479][480][481]
I also believe this editor to be the same as User:Jattsidhu55 and the two blocked sockpuppets, User:Baburjahangir and User:Baburakbar. This is not only because of the similar editing habits,[484][485][486] but also because all the accounts and one of the IPs seem to have identified themselves with the same name and birth date.[487][488][489] The choice in targeted pages are not very consistent and I am now struggling to find and counteract the vandalism. I'd really appreciate some help. Thank you. Alivardi (talk) 17:18, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
@Boardwalknw8: This is a content dispute, not vandalism. Jebcubed raises legitimate concerns about sourcing: there appear to be a mixture of primary and secondary sources used in the additions. Both parties need to discuss the matter at Talk:Mike Berlon to work toward consensus about the changes. The general rule of thumb when additions are contested is to leave the article in the status quo ante condition, although I'm not going to make that change (which would revert Boardwalknw8's edits) at this time. —C.Fred (talk) 17:16, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
jebcubed(talk·contribs·deleted contribs·nuke contribs·logs·filter log·block user·block log) More than willing to work with Jebcubed. He has never pointed out any issues with the article, just made the unilateral decision to take it down multiple times and threatened to block me as user if I didn't agree. The article is well authenticated and noted. More than willing to discuss the points he has issue with. Thanks for your help and advice. Hope to hear from him soon about the issues over which he disagrees. Boardwalknw8 (talk) 17:33, 4 December 2019 (UTC)boardwalknw8Boardwalknw8 (talk) 17:33, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
Ritchie333 Thank you for the note. This is the first issue I have had on Wikipedia and was not familiar with the procedure. Will use the talk page on Mike Berlon moving forward. More than willing to work to get this resolved. If you have any other advice, please let me know. Just want to get it right. Thank you again. Boardwalknw8 (talk) 18:55, 4 December 2019 (UTC)Boardwalknw8
This concerns Drmiri (talk·contribs), who is basically a WP:SPA with the purpose of promoting/editing Kowsar Publishing-related article (see their talk pages). On their user page, they link to their ORCID profile, , which lists them as an employee of Kowsar Medical (they are actually the CEO of Kowsar). They were warned about WP:UPE before, but that didn't do anything, and they have recently added a bunch of promotional material to the Kowsar article.
You're right, they don't link to the ORCID profile, not sure where I got the link from because I certainly didn't search for it directly. But they're still the Kowsar CEO. Headbomb {t · c · p · b}20:42, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
Please think about comments of Founder of Kowsar publishing before deletion of his comments
I am the CEO and founder of Kowsar Publishing. You are posting some un-proven and un-ethical personal points about my company. Please think more about my comments. I have the right to defend about our activities in Kowsar?
Somebody like Beall said something about Kowsar in Bealls list without any document. After that ONLY 2 other people like corresponding authors of the mentioned articles wrote something against our company. How can I defend?
Please tell me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drmiri (talk • contribs) 18:02, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
This really is not an urgent, intractable issue requiring administrator intervention(reporting of which is the purpose of this page). However, since you are here- you must review and formally comply with the conflict of interest and paid editing policies(the latter is a Terms of Use requirement). If you have concerns about the article about your company, you should bring them up on the article talk page. As you have a conflict of interest, you should avoid editing the article yourself. Please understand that Wikipedia summarizes what independent reliable sources state. 331dot (talk) 18:09, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
There has been an edit war at Module:Efn native lang, reported here. The user insisted on adding text that results in incorrect information. The page is now protected with the incorrect text. It should be reverted. Ythlev (talk) 21:04, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
@Ythlev: both you and Geographyinitiative were edit warring. That has stopped since El_C has protected the page. But both you and Geographyinitiative are warned that continued edit warring can result in being blocked. You are both advised instead to resolve your content dispute by the methods described at WP:CONTENTDISPUTE. Paul August☎22:34, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
Dommiraubi (talk·contribs) continuously cites other wikipedia articles in their references, even after leaving multiple warnings on their talk page.
Some examples:
If you look at the revision history of this page, you can see that I removed the references to wikipedia and explained why (using WP:CIRCULAR and WP:WINARS) yet the user continued to re-add the reference to the other wikipedia article.
Those are the ones I warned about, but going through this user's contributions, I have found other instances of circular references, including:
Comment It should also be noted that this is Dommiraubi's second ANI in less than six months. The last one was due to the editor following a similar pattern (although then it appears to have been with unsourced content) of not heeding warnings and then edit-warring to keep the content he added up. He also made no attempt to communicate with other editors then, either. Best, GPL93 (talk) 13:23, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
Comment: Going through Dommiraubi's contributions, I have noticed another troubling pattern. Aside from WP:CIRCULAR violations, the articles that Dommiraubi is creating are riddled with WP:PUFFERY, are usually puff pieces filled with editorialising, original research, and compliments to the subject of the article (in other words, not even remotely neutral), and they either rely heavily on a single source, obscure sources, or unreliable fodder like IMDB, user reviews, or other Wikipedia pages. I just had to template the hell out of a few articles that Dommiraubi created. DarkKnight214923:02, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
Update: Some IPs involved are 142.112.229.157, 184.153.56.220 (currently blocked) and 2600:1700:3221:1eb0:d84d:5bea:f93a:264. Note that many of these have little to no contribs. 02:33, 5 December 2019 (UTC) Changed my mind. dibbydib💬/✏04:07, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
You're kidding, right? These IP addresses geolocate to New York, Tennessee, and Ottawa. And Walter violated 3RR to restore unsourced content in a BLP? Ugh. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 02:37, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
Yeah, I've blocked Walter for a week for edit warring to restore unsourced content to a BLP. Not a huge BLP vio, but where someone lives could be considered private, and even if it wasn't, edit warring to restore unsourced content is fairly high up on the "never do this list", and to be honest, his edit summaries read like someone who isn't thinking rationally and are disruptive in themselves. His last edit warring block was 72 hours, so a week seemed the next step. TonyBallioni (talk) 03:01, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
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WP:FORUM has nothing whatsoever to do with this incident. My edit was not inappropriate at all. I voted in an AfD discussion and stated a perfectly valid reason for my vote. Polemical content is "very divisive or offensive material not related to encyclopedia editing", my statement was entirely related to encyclopedia editing and nothing else, was related only to Wikipedia as it should be, did not attack any editors, etc etc. Obviously you disagreed with my view, which is fine, that's why we take votes! But my view is completely reasonable and conforms with Wikipedia rules. In no way do ANY of the rules you stated apply to my vote. MarcelB612 (talk) 05:24, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
I agree with EvergreenFir; voting to keep an article on the grounds that you think that it is bad and therefore "serves as a great example to warn people about what a disaster Wikipedia has become" is not a serious effort to participate in a discussion. The vote was properly removed, and further agitation in this direction should be dealt with appropriately. BD2412T05:29, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
As mentioned by others, MarcelB612's vote was a WP:POINT violation and was correctly struck. Anyone wanting to participate in discussions at Wikipedia needs to do so in a reasonable manner. Johnuniq (talk) 05:50, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
Yeah, what the EvergreenFir, BD2412, Johnuniq said. MarcelB612, should drop this now instead of trying to escalate this further. —SpacemanSpiff06:04, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
Whenever you hear about "administrator abuse" it almost always turns out that it is the administrator who is being abused. I cannot understand why anyone would want the job. --Guy Macon (talk) 06:20, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
I have a really old black hoodie sweatshirt that has a cool "Wikipedia Ambassador" logo on it, with the jigsaw puzzle piece globe on the back. It is so uncool that nobody ever mentions it when I am wearing my it. People probably think that I am crazy. Cullen328Let's discuss it07:30, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
I agree with others that MarcelB612 needs to stop this silly point violation "protest". If they don't, a WP:BOOMERANG block may very well be in order. Personally, I'd normal suggest that in a case where the !vote is so clearly nonsense it's probably not necessary to strike it out, but this is a very long AFD. Nil Einne (talk) 08:28, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
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Digging up an old discussion that took place two years ago just shows that the reporting editor is holding a WP:GRUDGE for no apparent reason. He/she just came out of nowhere and started to annoy me on my talk page. In addition, he/she went to the Los Angeles Clippers page, which was never edited by the reporting editor and reverted my edits. It makes an impression that those reverts were in retaliation to the AFC Championship Game page. The reporting editor then went to my talk page and started blabbering about some "longstanding" consensus on the Los Angeles Clippers' page, which he/she invented out of the blue, and also pinged two other editors, who are not related to the issue on my talk page. This whole report is stale and the reporting editor is doing everything just to make a WP:POINT, which is bad faith. It also makes an impression that I am being stalked. The first cited statement from my talk page was in my first reply to the reporting editor, because I could not understand what he/she meant and after looking at the editor's edits, it became apparent that his/her skills editing in English were poor so I advised him/her to stick to the main Wikipedia where the editor makes edits – the Russian Wikipedia. The other statement just stated the obvious as I am certainly not going to other language Wikipedia to show off like the reporting editor does here. – Sabbatino (talk) 19:56, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
I have no opinion on the underlying content issue, but must point out that it is totally valid to point out that Sabbatino has been given a final warning about civility and edit warring, that it is not annoying someone to start a discussion on their talk page, that telling someone that they shouldn't be editing the English Wikipedia is a personal attack, and that only D-list "celebrities" use the "don't you know who I am" argument. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:15, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
I already explained that I pinged users, which inserted sources from which you removed the "language = en" parameter. The fact that you mention my words as "blabbering", saying that I am "bothering" you, cut off an unfinished conversation with the words "The discussion is over until you understand how to use talk pages" leaves me not many options for the reaction. I think that anyone who reads our discussion with you will see that I have been peaceful and patient, and I want to continue to be so, but your communication style creates an atmosphere that is uncomfortable for me. ·Carn!?21:42, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
@Phil Bridger: You do not know anything about the "final warning" situation so it is not for you to judge me. In addition, telling someone that they are lacking WP:COMPETENCE is not a personal attack. I also do not use any "that only D-list "celebrities" use the "don't you know who I am" argument" arguments as you are implying. You do not know my editing history and I do not know yours so just stop with the judgments. – Sabbatino (talk) 22:44, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
I suspect Phil's 'D-list' analogy is a reference to your having claimed to know a bit more than Carn. As a general rule, such statements come across poorly regardless of the intended meaning. Also, it is not a judgment to make the factual observation that you have been given a final warning. Lepricavark (talk) 23:17, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
Basing my stance on a discussion from two years ago is absurd. The usee does not know me and I do not know him so he should just stop with implications. – Sabbatino (talk) 08:12, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
Yes, of course that was the meaning of my analogy, as I would have thought that anyone with enough proficiency in English to admonish others for minor grammatical failings would have recognised. Phil Bridger (talk) 22:28, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
@Carn: I am calm. However, when a person starts to repeat the same thing all over again for no apparent reason, it makes an impression that the person does not really know what he/she wants besides trying to annoy someone, which is the case. – Sabbatino (talk) 22:44, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
My reason is transparent - I'm occasionaly translate pages from enwiki to ruwiki and I want language=en to be not removed in cases than it was set by editor, that added <ref></ref>. I'm sorry that I have failed to explain my position clearly to you. But don't you think, that if there were a newbie in my place, (s)he would be scared.·Carn!?22:55, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
Sabbatino's comments are indeed rude, condescending and overly quarrelsome for such a trivial issue. Carn was right to bring this to ANI. François Robere (talk) 11:28, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
Have to agree that Sabbatino's comments are problematic. While Carn!? first comment to Sabbatino did have some language issues, and their English as shown here and in the followup issues isn't perfect, it does not seem to be bad enough to suggest the editor cannot edit here. I can't imagine Sabbatino analysing Carn!? contributions would have shown any different. And if they were offering that suggestion based only on that one comment Carn!? left on their talk page, that's hardly civil behaviour.
And it seems particularly weird to make a big deal over how long you've been here, when you can't even get basic policy right. WP:SOCK does not forbid the use of multiple accounts. Using multiple accounts to appear as if you're two editors is indeed a violation of our sockpuppetry policy but the accusation was fairly weird anyway.
Carn!? outlined why they pinged the editor when they pinged. And followed with diffs demonstrating what they said was correct, after the sockpuppetry suggestion. I don't know how Carn!? knew that User:Azure1233 is one of the one's who added the parameter. Maybe they used wikiblame. But it seems a fair enough ping especially as it was only a discussion on a user talk page anyway, not an RFC or something. And it seems weird to suggest sockpuppetry just because of that.
Also while 2 years is a fairly long time ago, the best way you can convince people you've improved is by showing it. Which I'm not seeing here or the discussion on Sabbatino's talk page.
As for the content dispute, that's best discussed elsewhere. But I've reverted since Carn!? has outline a reason why they want the parameter, but Sabbatino has outline no harm other than WP:IDONTLIKEIT nor policy or guideline supporting their actions.
To be clear, there's nothing particularly wrong with Sabbatino believing it's best to remove the template. I wouldn't even say it was wrong to remove it in the first instance since the documentation does sort of suggest it's not necessary. But once Carn!? objected, then Sabbatino should have given their objections including rationale for why they want the parameter, a fair hearing. And if they looked at the template documentation, they should have realised it doesn't actually say it's forbidden. And known that their vague memories of previous discussions are not good evidence it's forbidden. And therefore, if not reverted themselves at least told Carn!? they were free to revert. And also undertaken not to remove the template in articles Carn!? is likely to edit.
I think that removing that parameter was encouraged when Sabbatino first started editing. The preference changed several years ago, as more translation work started happening and the CS1 folks updated the template to hide the parameter, but most editors outside the core AWB and CHECKWIKI groups probably didn't hear about the change. I'll see about clarifying the /doc pages, so that people will be able to find out the "rules" if they happen to look. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:20, 2 December 2019 (UTC)
I'd like to know whether, on reflection, Sabbatino regrets his remarks that I will join the half-dozen experienced users here identifying as inappropriate. I think some self-reflection complimentary of his many valuable contributions here would be well received. If these were my remarks, and it turned out as it did that I was probably in error on the underlying issue to boot, I would show some contrition. --Bsherr (talk) 21:03, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
I am not going to say that I regret my remarks, because I can express my opinion, but I do agree that some of them were harsh. If the user was direct from the beginning of the discussion on my talk page then this could have been avoided. – Sabbatino (talk) 09:09, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
I see that nobody has seen fit to close this discussion yet. I think that there is a consensus that Sabbatino was uncivil here, so it just comes down to the decision as to whether a final warning is actually final, or whether we have to put up with such behaviour. Phil Bridger (talk) 22:28, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
So I guess this is textbook Wikipedia:Don't be inconsiderate. "If the community is telling you that you are being inconsiderate, then please reflect on your behaviour. Continuing to behave in a way that people are telling you is inappropriate or disruptive leads to problems. For you, for the community, and for Wikipedia." Support one month block and let's see if that time for self-reflection was utilized. --Bsherr (talk) 22:52, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
Could I have acted differently? Yes? Did I? No. Do I understand my reaction was not good? Yes. Did I try suggesting that the parameter is sort of not needed? I did, and after the editor asked somewhere else about the matter, I replied there regarding the matter. In addition, when I saw that the editor went off-topic on my talk page, I decided to stop the discussion there. Finally, whatever the decision is – block or no block – I have bigger matters in my life at this time than think about anything Wikipedia-related. – Sabbatino (talk) 11:28, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
Cinema Clown removing comments at rename discussion
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Cinema Clown is a sock of Agantuk0708, who has been editing here since 2014. There are other undisclosed accounts used by this editor as well. It's all very odd (see the deleted edits of another Confirmed account Stolonifer for example). I've left a request for an explanation on Cinema Clown's talk page.-- Jezebel's Ponyobons mots21:39, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
Given it is five socks and no embarrassment or remorse about using them to skew consensus their direction, I think there is one obvious course of action that should be taken in respect of ALL the accounts, including the Cinema Clown one: indef blocking all of them (Agantuk0708, Stolonifer, Aaron the Auteur, Bubaikumar and Cinema Clown) and checking to see if there are any others. – SchroCat (talk) 10:35, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Done (Non-administrator comment) - Rollback appears to have done the trick. :) AddWittyNameHere 02:33, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
Administrator note I have abbreviated the very long title. The concern appears to be alleged stalking of edits and disruptive behavior by the above IP. -Ad Orientem (talk) 05:24, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
Unrelated to Alainlambert. You were right to be suspicious, but Alainlambert should be unblocked - they were simply being framed by an LTA. ST47 (talk) 01:27, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
– Levivich 04:52, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
— Diannaa 🍁 (talk) 14:29, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
Resolved
Blocked and tagged. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 05:51, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
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Confirmed account Stolonifer for example). I've left a request for an explanation on Cinema Clown's talk page.-- Jezebel's Ponyobons mots 21:39, 4 December 2019 (UTC)