User talk:Bro The Man

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Welcome Bro The Man!

Hello Bro The Man. Welcome to Wikipedia and thank you for your contributions!

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Sincerely, Abo Yemen✉ (Leave me a message) 13:33, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

That's handy, thank you! Bro The Man (talk) 17:14, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

October 2024

Hi Bro The Man! I noticed that you have reverted to restore your preferred version of an article several times. The impulse to undo an edit you disagree with is understandable, but I wanted to make sure you're aware that the edit warring policy disallows repeated reversions even if they are justifiable.

All editors are expected to discuss content disputes on article talk pages to try to reach consensus. If you are unable to agree, please use one of the dispute resolution options to seek input from others. Using this approach instead of reverting can help you avoid getting drawn into an edit war. Thank you. Remsense ‥ 论 22:05, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi Ramsense, thank you for reaching out and notifying me. I appreciate the initiative.

I use reverts as a method to rescue citations before applying the feedback of the reverting editor.

I will take your notice onboard, to engage in discussion and achieve consensus where possible. And to move on to something or in a very last resort; arbitrate. Bro The Man (talk) 22:21, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

The issues were not matters of sourcing, please see the links Pepperbeast provided in their reasoning to learn more. Also, @Pepperbeast's other reverts were not "revenge"—they saw similar problems in edits you were making elsewhere and attempted to address them. Remsense ‥ 论 22:23, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

My philosophy so far to approaching pages when I select it to edit, is to retain the original information and citations and add ontop.

I understood that the Christian-Islam Relationship page is a page that may be contentious, with anti-Islam leaning. I checked the article history and on average it has received about 4-6 edits per month.

I attempted to balance the lede and provide citations to a previously uncited lede, with a hope that some of the content which reflects a balance and accurate citation would be retained.

However, what happened was that not only a full revert was made, while expected was prepared to forfeit all further effort as no element or piece of knowledge was retained despite being more accurate and content. BUT ALSO a series of edits across my history.

I may not be a seasoned editor, but as this was the first occurrence, i interpreted those series of edits as motivated by in my daring to touch the initial page.

As such, i didn't touch the Christian Islam page after your revert because i didn't want any further escalation nor your continued attention. Bro The Man (talk) 05:23, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

i interpreted those series of edits as motivated by in my daring to touch the initial page.

We're telling you you were wrong to assume that. Instead, please assume good faith, just like we are from you. Also, article leads generally do not require citations, as they are meant to be summaries of the article body, which is where citations go. See WP:LEADCITE. Remsense ‥ 论 05:24, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

No way seriously? That makes my world so much easier. So basically, as long as the concepts are reflective of the current popular discourse, explicitly discussed, and correctly cited, in the body?

Am I missing anything else? Bro The Man (talk) 05:55, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Two minor details I just want to make clear:

1. Article leads should be summarized roughly proportional to the body: that means if there are several large sections, some smaller subsections might not get reflected at all.
2. Direct quotations still have to be inline cited, as is always required.

Remsense ‥ 论 05:57, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

That's informative. Thank you for that. Bro The Man (talk) 06:02, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Islam in Australia. This means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be although other editors disagree. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus, rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

Points to note:

1. Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made;
2. Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes and work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. Stop trying to establish Islam in Australia as coming before Christianity. Binksternet (talk) 12:01, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

There is no evidence of people identifying as muslim with permanent residence in Australia. During the christian missions from 1880 to 1960, Yolngu suppressed their narratives out of self preservation. The history is permanently lost. What we only have are remanent practices remaining.

diff : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Binksternet#Consensus_achieved:_Islam_in_Australia.

You asked me not to say that islam is the oldest. I learned yesterday that islam is not the oldest. Buddhist beliefs reached torres strait islands before islam, and there was migration ongoing in that region for 1100 years. There's plenty of evidence for pagan religions too.

What is fact is that Yolngu, have always and continue to assert their unique identity. Therefore, there is only evidence of cultural exchange from Muslim visitors. There is academic record of these cultural influences. I am not edit waring. Bro The Man (talk) 12:40, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I hope you find the below useful and informative.

Excerpt from the Federal Australian Museum: https://www.nma.gov.au/defining-moments/resources/trade-with-the-makasar

Influence on Yolŋu society and ritual

• The Makasar did not settle in Arnhem Land but they did have an influence on Yolŋu society and ritual. They introduced calico, tobacco and smoking pipes, and words that are still in use today, such as rrupia (money).
• Most importantly they introduced an item of technology that transformed Yolŋu life – metal. Metal blades, knives and axes made everyday practices easier for Yolŋu, from cutting food to making large dugout canoes and complex wooden sculptures.

Bro The Man (talk) 13:41, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

WP:NEGOTIATE : Aim at the top during disputes.

Further information: Wikipedia:Negotiation

Talking to other parties is not a mere formality, but an integral part of writing the encyclopedia. Discussing heatedly or poorly – or not at all – will make other editors less sympathetic to your position, and prevent you from effectively using later stages in dispute resolution. Sustained discussion between the parties, even if not immediately successful, demonstrates your good faith and shows you are trying to reach a consensus. Try negotiating a truce or proposing a compromise through negotiation. Bro The Man (talk) 14:31, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Canvassing

Per our discussion on my talk page, I wanted to leave you a note here, in case you need to find/search for it later, about WP:CANVASSING and why that's inappropriate. Please remember not to seek out individuals during a content dispute and notify them of the discussion in a non-neutral manner. Neutral notifications to relevant WikiProjects are appropriate, but non-neutral messages to individuals are not. Abo Yemen✉ 13:32, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi! Thank you for taking time to reply. I'm not edit warring, actually trying to avoid doing so. Thanks for letting me know about that policy, Islam in Australia has limited traction among editors, so i reached out looking for help.

Context what's occuring. I tried to apply Binksternet's advice on two occaisions and then on a third occaision he fully reset the whole page. i abandoned the page after then. The points of contention that were solely targeted by binksternet are:

• the age and 500 year history of islam predating european arrival by 300 years.
• the documented and federally recognised genocide of aboriginal australians
• the persecution and islamophobia experience by muslims in australia which academic consensus
• Binksternet's final reversion claims bloated lead, which i concede as i was not fully aware of the fully regarding leads. I have since educated myself and have proposed a reduced version in the talk:Islam in Australia page, that retains and move parts to the appropriate sections of the body.

To answer your question: Mind telling me what part of the article you find leaning toward an Islamophobic narrative?

This is the version I have edited up until Binkster's final reversion and it addresses the issues below: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Islam_in_Australia&diff=prev&oldid=1253421239

Australia is a Christian country, but non-religiously motivated crimes of christians are not chronicled on Christianity in Australia as they are in Islam in Australia. Additionally, there is a long long and diverse history of christian motivated violence in Australia that's motivated by ideas like white Christian Identity or its off-shoot of secularly justified White supremacist persecutions. Not only is none of this is explored in Christianity in Australia, and only mentioned in passing, but the page is dedicated to focus on only the good presence of christianity and their struggles to maintain and expand their faith. Some examples of islamaphobia include:

• History || Post war Migration: Broken Hill cameleer incident: as described in parliamentary government records, an unqualified and "over-zealous"_dog-whistle newly appointed health inspector targeted one of the main halal butchers that's been standing no issues for years and shut it down within months of his appointment. This occured during the out break of WW1 and the butcher gained the company of an Ottaman Miltary Vet and planned a relation due to perceived disenfranchisement on one end and political motivation on the other. Religion was not identified as a primary motivation. This is included in the article as:
  • Notable events involving Australian Muslims during this early period include what has been described either as an act of war by the Ottoman Empire, or the earliest terrorist attack planned against Australian civilians. The attack was carried out at Broken Hill, New South Wales, in 1915, in what was described as the Battle of Broken Hill. Two Afghans who pledged allegiance to the Ottoman Empire shot and killed four Australians and wounded seven others before being killed by the police.
  • However, australia has a long history of genocide, persecution, and lynchings of aboriginal people which are themselves acts of terror
• History || 21st Century: The following are non-religious motivated events.
  • Organised/gang rape by a group of young adult men that identify as muslim. This is not reflected in the christian page
  • race motivated riots against lebanese australians regardless of religious affiliation; christian or muslims
  • 2014 Sydney Lindth Cafe Siege / Hostage crisis. perpetrator was a none practicing muslim, mentally unstable, and a known person-of-interest to intelligence but labeled as low threat despite consistent harressment of public officials and claiming iran was response for 9/11
  • Lastly, australia does not have an extremism issue among its muslim population. They enjoy high engagement with the government and spear head the initiative against right wing radicalisation. Where in australia, is a universal issue where muslim right-influence is a Reactionary response to primarily white (and christian) antagonisation.
• Islamic denominations in Australia || Sunni: Below are fringe elements that are sourced from openly islamophobic publications. They are also insignificant minorities that steal the spotlight away form the organisations the actuallay represent the 850,000 australian muslims
  • In Australia there are also groups associated with the "hardline" Salafi branch of Sunni Islam, including the Islamic Information and Services Network of Australasia and Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah Association (Australia) (ASWJA). While their numbers are small, the ASWJA is said to "punch above its weight".
  • There are communities of NSW Muslims who adhere to Tablighi Jamaat form of Islam and worship at the Granville, Al Noor Masjid, which is led by Sheik Omar El-Banna. Similarly many Bangladeshi Tablighi Jamaat, Muslims worship at mosques in Seaton, NSW and in Huntingdale Victoria.
  • This one is a dog whitsle: Dawateislami, which is a "non-political Islamic organisation based in Pakistan", has adherents in Australia.
  • This one is a dog whitle which i kept unedited but added context mentioning the defence alliance and the multiple billion dolllar trade relationships australia has with Saudia Arabia:
    • In 2015, Wikileaks cables released information that Saudi Arabia closely monitors the situation of Islam and Arab community in Australia, whilst at the same time spending considerately to promote its fundamentalist version of Sunni Islam within the country.
• Religious Life || Organisations
  • Undue Weight by this segment: Two organisations with strong political emphasis are Hizb ut-Tahrir which describes itself as a, "political party whose ideology is Islam" and Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah Association (ASWJA).
• Demographics ||
  • || Bangladeshi Muslims:
  • The sources used were retracted/deleted as false alarmist, based on false reports and settled in court.
  • Two organisations with strong political emphasis are Hizb ut-Tahrir which describes itself as a, "political party whose ideology is Islam" and Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah Association (ASWJA).
  • || Lebanese australians
  • undue weight: slow news cycle remarks by minor ministers at the time. Left no lasting impact and not remembered
  • In November 2016, Immigration Minister, Peter Dutton said that it was a mistake of a previous administration to have brought out Lebanese Muslim immigrants. Foreign Minister, Julie Bishop said Dutton was making a specific point about those charged with terrorism offences. "He made it quite clear that he respects and appreciates the contribution that the Lebanese community make in Australia".
  • || Descrimination || 4th paragraph
  • Michael Humphrey's whole book is an insanely well written and scathing analysis of australia's historical treatment of its 3% population. this paragraph attempts to portray the opposite. When i addressed it, binksternet deleted it all and called it original research. My only fault is that i didn't continually reference the book, after every line. I did read the book. But i did i not challenge binksternet because what i said was not new knowledge and informed me of his bias.
  • || Views on Homosexuality
  • Nicky-D addressed this section as it focused on individual views and neglected the very large pro-lgbt muslim organisations. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Islam_in_Australia&diff=prev&oldid=1248233248
  • Also "australian islam" is inline with the christians and jews on homosexuality
• In literature and film (last body section): another set of micro aggressions which i had already addressed

Bro The Man (talk) 15:33, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

This seems to be very complicated and im not willing to get myself into a discussion as big as this one. I'd recommend bringing this up at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard if no consensus is reached at the talkpage of the article. Abo Yemen✉ 18:35, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

We have achieved a consensus. What happens next? Bro The Man (talk) 21:07, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

the article gets to change to what yall agreed to in the talk page Abo Yemen✉ 06:10, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I have confirmed my consensus, but I'm wanting on his reply. My instinct tells me to wait. After he replies, am I the one who does it? Bro The Man (talk) 08:14, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

try pinging them Abo Yemen✉ 08:17, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Notice of edit warring noticeboard discussion

Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion involving you at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring regarding a possible violation of Wikipedia's policy on edit warring. Thank you. Binksternet (talk) 14:07, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Edit warring at Islam in Australia

You have been blocked from editing for a period of 24 hours for edit warring. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make useful contributions.

During a dispute, you should first try to discuss controversial changes and seek consensus. If that proves unsuccessful, you are encouraged to seek dispute resolution, and in some cases it may be appropriate to request page protection.

If you think there are good reasons for being unblocked, please review Wikipedia's guide to appealing blocks, then add the following text to the bottom of your talk page: {{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}.

Per a complaint at the edit warring noticeboard. EdJohnston (talk) 17:46, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

That is unfortunate. I saw Bro The Man make some productive edits. I hope they can come back, and slow down a bit, gaining consensus before moving on to more edits.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 19:50, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

True, he probably didn't understand what edit warring is anyways Abo Yemen✉ 06:29, 1 November 2024 (UTC)