Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-06-22 John Cena

Mediation Case: 2006-06-22 John Cena

Please observe Wikipedia:Etiquette and Talk Page Etiquette in disputes. If you submit complaints or insults your edits are likely to be removed by the mediator, any other refactoring of the mediation case by anybody but the mediator is likely to be reverted. If you are not satisfied with the mediation procedure please submit your complaints to Wikipedia talk:Mediation Cabal.

Request Information

Request made by: Lid 12:49, 22 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Where is the issue taking place?: John Cena, WWE Films

Who's involved?: User:DaffyDuck619, User:Lid, User:Halbared, User:Lil crazy thing, Wikipedia:WikiProject Professional wrestling

What's going on?: DaffyDuck619 adds details about John Cena's affinity for cartoons, gets reverted by everyone else as non notable. DaffyDuck continues to make the changes while not technically performing 3RR as he is not reverting the pages but adding other detail to it. Posts at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Professional wrestling#User:DaffyDuck619, User:Lil crazy thing and John Cena looked at the issue.

Edit: a recheck of John Cena shows he is performing 3RR, reported on 3RR page as well.

What would you like to change about that?: Have a third party outside the current have a look at the situation and rule accordingly so that this rather stupid debate can be over with as it's been going on for a long time now with persecution syndrome being used by Daffy as to his edits being reverted being some grudge against him by everyone who reverts him.

Would you prefer we work discreetly? If so, how can we reach you?: I do not mind either way, but I am available at my talk page.

Mediator response

Hi, I am the BrownHornet and I have taken this case. Let's keep the discussion on this mediation page. I have a few ground rules:

Refrain from engaging in personal attacks;
Always assume everyone is acting in good faith;
No personal attacks are allowed;
Keep an open mind and a willingness to compromise to a reasonable solution;
Comments by any and all are welcome;
Did I mention that no personal attacks are allowed?;
Don't make assumptions about the person(s) on the other side of the coin, such as "I like your proposal, but the other side will reject it"; too often this starts going down the path to the Dark Side; and you may be surprised by what is an acceptable solution to the other side; and
I reserve the right to ~~strike out~~ personal attacks and any other general nastiness. BrownHornet21 01:58, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My initial response will be an attempt to sum up the case, as well as to invite the response of all participants to the mediation. I have never heard of John Cena before I took this mediation, and hope that will aid my neutrality in this matter.

My summary of the dispute (feel free to jump in and interrupt if I get things wrong):

1. DaffyDuck619 makes the following edits to the John Cena page, noting Cena's love of cartoons:

"Cena is a huge fan of cartoons. He loves all cartoons but much prefers what you'd see on Cartoon Network, Boomerang (TV channel), Disney Channel or Nickelodeon over what you'd see on Adult Swim, Comedy Central or any other made for adults cartoons."
"John Cena has stated that the one show he wants to do a guest spot on is Disney's Dave The Barbarian. Even going so far as to be very open about playing the title character in a live action movie."

2. No source has been provided for these edits, but it seems that no one seriously disputes these facts.

3. Other users do dispute whether the two edits above are notable enough to warrant inclusion on Cena's biography page on Wikipedia.

Is this an accurate summary of the dispute? BrownHornet21 01:58, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Mediation Request also asks for, more or less, someone to referee the dispute and decide if one side is right or wrong. That's not really what mediation is, but tell you what; if all parties consent, and sign their name below to agree to abide by my decision, then I don't have a problem with playing the ref in this one. I'd give each side one opportunity to state their case, then give each side one additional opportunity for rebuttal, mull things over, and make my decision.

But if all parties do not agree to such an approach, then we'll take the more tradional mediation approach. I have no preference, and won't hold it against you for saying yes or no to this approach. My main objective is to mediate the issue to an amicable resolution.

Until then, let's take the more traditional approach, and that's to get our thoughts and comments out into the open in a constructive manner. I invite all participants, especially DaffyDuck619, since the dispute is about his edits, to state why these edits do or do not meet Wikipedia's notability guidelines. BrownHornet21 01:58, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Compromise offers

This section is for listing and discussing compromise offers.

Mediator's Proposal I'm having a hard time seeing how the information meets Wikipedia's notability guidelines. The consensus (here and on other pages I've looked at) seems to be that it is not notable. Daffy still needs to make a case for its inclusion, following the guidelines set out at Wikipedia's notability page, so I reserve the right to change my mind about this. But after looking at the edits and Wikipedia's guidelines about notability and trivia, it doesn't strike me as notable, because, well, lots of adults like watching cartoons. I like watching cartoons. Who doesn't?

Unless Cena works it into his wrestling career or music career as an influence (e.g., does he ever reference a cartoon or cartoon character in the middle of a match?), then it's no more important than saying he enjoys watching, say, 24 or old Hogan's Heroes reruns or something. But most people don't seem to have a big problem with saying he enjoys cartoons, so long as that statement is put in the "Personal" section and includes a source (cite to an interview where Cena says he likes cartoons). So here is what I propose:

1. In the Personal section, insert a short statement - "Cena also loves to watch cartoons" or some other language everyone can agree on.

2. Let's keep the specific channels he watches off for now, as the assertion that Cena watches them doesn't meet Wikipedia's notability guidelines. BUT, in the future, should they influence his work in the ring (e.g., he starts yelling out "this spinebuster's for you, Scooby Doo!") or in the recording studio (e.g., records a song about Kim Possible) or he launches into a new career doing voice work for cartoons (and he says watching certain channels influenced him to do it), then it would make sense to think about including such references somewhere in his biography.

3. Let's keep the Dave The Barbarian reference off for now, unless he actually makes an appearance on that show. At that time, it would make sense to then include the reference in his biography.

If you agree to this proposal, please sign your name below (and feel free to provide any comments) - add more numbers for signatures as needed:

1. i agree as its what i have been saying the whole time Lil crazy thing 16:26, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

2. I agree --- Lid 21:51, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

3. I agree --- DaffyDuck619

If you disagree with this proposal, please sign below and say specifically what problems you have with it and why - add more numbers for signatures as needed:

1.

2.

Thanks for everyone's input so far, hopefully we can work this out. BrownHornet21 15:51, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

While using the talk page of the article in question to solve a dispute is encouraged to involve a larger audience, feel free to discuss the case below if that is not possible. Other mediators are also encouraged to join in on the discussion as Wikipedia is based on consensus.

There is a problem with your request: DaffyDuck619 (talk · contribs), under my reporting, just received a 24 hour block for breaking the three revert rule - reverting seven times to add the cartoons comment. So right now there is no real way for him to consent, also the last two reverts made used this as the comment "I'M NOT GOING TO STOP ADDING THIS! YOU BETTER STOP DELETING THIS!" so it's doubtful he will respond. --- Lid 02:09, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not a problem, the block that is. I think we can wait for the block to pass and let him comment, as he is a key player in this mediation. I saw the seven reverts; as the mediator, I have to act under the assumption that everyone is acting in good faith, even when they violate a rule such as 3RR. I try to give everyone an opportunity to wipe the slate clean and constructively make their arguments here without letting prior actions influence the process. I really hope he responds - this is a chance for him to make a case for his edits. BrownHornet21 02:27, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just an observation on the John Cena page. If we consider his enjoying video games as notable, then why not his liking of cartoons? Also, I see nothing wrong with the other point he's adding. If John Cena states something like that in an interview, then why can't we include it? --J Fred 03:02, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

i dont think it should be added at all, say he likes cartoons fine i kept that bit in the article but he changed it yet again to include what channels the channels aren't notable it doesnt matter what channel and the fact is cena has never said the exact channels. He may say he has the video of the interview but he ~~most likely doesnt he~~ got the information from imdb, its word for word from that site, as his said something like that before. I had a problem with him a while back he said barry o (randy ortons uncle) had a son that wanted to be a wrestler and that randy and bob orton stated it in an randys frist interview on wwe.com and told me he wasnt posting it for me but told me look at so and so place. ~~The information was a load of lies because~~ barry o doesnt have a son to start with. This user has a habit of making up lies and expecting everyone to believe them and throws a fit when its deleted, look at the barry ortons history till you find our usernames this will show it. If he doesnt get his way he will then insult users, and personal attacks arent allow but his done this many times ignoring the warnings his gotten from it. No matter what you tell him it will not matter as he has the attitude whatever he adds will be kept and he will make sure it is, and he can do whatever he wants. He has been told many times but its doesnt matter and this will most likely be no different.Lil crazy thing 05:14, 23 June 2006 (UTC) (Strikeouts by Mediator - No personal attacks allowed, let's keep things civil, please). - BrownHornet21 22:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My only input into this is that I do not believe the information added by Daffy is encyclopaedic. Therefore I think it is not-notable.(Halbared 07:37, 23 June 2006 (UTC))[reply]

As far as sources go, I believe it came from his weeekly segment on WWE.com: Five Questions with the Champ, or whatever it's called now. I specifically remember him mentioning his love for cartoons in one of them, name dropping channels. Archives of the segments are in his WWE.com profile, but I'm not going through them just to find this one. As for the mediation, I wouldn't include it.71.201.59.253 18:15, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You see other people believe me that it is notable and other people besides from me know it is true, other people have links to sites, in fact when I put it up there a couple of months ago people didn't delete that fact but added to it. When I added the fact about John Cena wanting to do a guest appearance on Dave The Barbarian in the guest appearances lil crazy thing kept deleting it because it shouldn't be there, till one other user sovled the problem, made the comprise and put it in the personal information. Yet (and I say this trying my best NOT to do any personal attacks) lil crazy thing STILL deleted it. The other fact I keep putting up there is the fact that he loves cartoons but much prefers the "kids" cartoons over the "adult" cartoons, which lil crazy thing deleted at first (and as I say this, I'm trying my best NOT to do any personal attacks, she probably had no idea I put it up there) her reason was "It doesn't matter what channels he watches", then when I kept putting it back up there she kept deleting it with her reaon being "It doesn't matter if he watches cartoons". Now if it didn't matter if he watched cartoons, she would have said that in the first place. ~~I feel like she is harrasing me as she is excluding me from editing pages (Randy Orton's, Bob Orton's, John Cena's, Stephanie McMahon-Levesque's, John Cena's and most recently WWE Films')~~ There, now you have my side of the story, I hope I didn't break any rules with the no personal attacks bit. DaffyDuck619

I give you credit for restraining yourself (and that's a good thing), but let's not focus on what Lil crazy thing is or is not doing to the page. I already know that you two are in an edit war over this. Tell me why you believe the edits at issue meet Wikipedia's notability guidelines. What I am hoping to see from the participants is, e.g., "this information is notable because of x,y, and z, or "this information is not notable because of a,b, and c. BrownHornet21 15:04, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You mentioned above some sort of compromise that was previously reached? Who all agreed to the compromise and what exactly was the compromise? BrownHornet21 15:04, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

how many damn times are you gonna blame me for everything, take note it is not only me who has removed it many people have removed it before me, e.g. jfred, lid and many others yet i'm the one who gets the blame, get your facts right before you go accusing people. Why do you think its come this far you ignore people think you can do what you want it has come this far because everyone has has enough, DO NOT SINGLELY BLAME ME FOR EVERYTHING! I'm not excluding you from editting your edits arent needed simple as that, i have been backed up on the randy orton page with what you added and i have been backed up on bob ortons page, the information you added ISN'T TRUE, you have a big habit in making false edits. I told you from the start why i removed the john cena stuff so did everyone else but you took no notice yet again, no matter if we tell you or not you will not listen at all. The edits you made had not in anyways been up there for months more like days (yet another lie) if you took notice eyt again you will see it wasn't me that removed it at first or the second time or the third yime but i get the blame typical. Take a look at all the edits you've done on other pages that have nothing to do with wrestling there not kept, take the hint your not making worth while edits. All you do is copy and paste from imdb that is all you do. the stpehanie mcmahon page was one damn edit you made and i'm stopping you from contributing hahaha that makes me laugh something else you act all petty over. You act like you know everything about wrestling you know nothing the only things you know is what you found on imdb, but the fact is this is wikipedia not imdb it doesnt matter if they have it on there wikipedia doesnt always needed it, you need to understand this imdb anyone can edit and alot of there information is untrue specially with the ortons, i can say that for a fact. You make personal attacks all the time you dont in anyway try to stop yourself. Now stop blaming me for every damn thing i'm getting sick of it, you continue to blame me for everything then i will personally take it futher i'm fed up with your pettyness all because you cant get your own way you blame one person for everything make people feel sorry for you instead of taking notice of everyone else that does it. Also to the person who crossed out my above edit has is stating what this person does is a personal attack, all you gotta do is look at his edits and go to the barry o page to see for yourself the information he added was lies that is not a personal attacks it is stating what he did. Lil crazy thing 07:00, 24 June 2006 (UTC) (Strikes by mediator; no personal attacks means no personal attacks BrownHornet21 15:04, 24 June 2006 (UTC))[reply]

LCT, I'm not suggesting that you're making up the stuff about the barry o page and other things, it's just that, as the mediator, I am trying to solve the current problem on the John Cena page and see if we can reach an agreement on what belongs or doesn't belong on the page. Tell me why you believe the edits at issue do not meet Wikipedia's notability guidelines. What I am hoping to see from the participants is, e.g., "this information is notable because of x,y, and z, or "this information is not notable because of a,b, and c. BrownHornet21 15:04, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

i apologize then but i'm getting fed up of all the blame being put on me when there are many others involved it isn't just me at all. To your more above question, no comprimise was ever made, the bob orton page was locked from all editting and a discussion was made in which he still refused to listen and stopped discussing it so an agreement was made without him because he wouldnt apply that the information wasnt needed, after a few days the page was re opened and he then went and re added what had been removed and discussed, it wasn't till an admin told him to stop adding it that he stopped for the time being. The other comprise maybe that the dave barbarian stuff was removed from the guest appearences section because he hadn't made an appearence on it, to the personal life section because the appearence hadn't happened, that wasn't no comprise just it was moved because another user was fed up with it, then someone else NOT ME removed it from the section, be he once again went back to re adding it. The information that keeps being added to the page isn't notible because many people like cartoons i can name a many wrestlers who have all said at some point that they like watching certain kids cartoons yet it's not said on there pages. Saying he likes cartoons ok fine i've editted the paragraph to say that but it was revert back by him, but saying what channels he watches is notible and isn't needed, channels people like to watch change all the time and does it really matter what channel they watch...no. The information saying he wants to appear in a certain cartoon film, has only been reported on imdb, i have yahoo that information and nothing has come up at all the exact same with the pokemon stuff he keeps adding there is no reports of it anywhere, why should something that hasnt been reported and comfirmed to be 100% true be added to a page when it cant even be confirmed. None of the information is of an importance or makes an impact as it says on the page you linked to. everyone on this page has agree that it isn;t notiable even the ip user who said he wouldnt include it, the only person that wants it include and think its of an importance is duffy no-one else. Lil crazy thing 15:43, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My argument as to why it shouldn't be there as under Wikipedia:Trivia such things are not even remotley important as it's speculation on the part of the topic. Saying one wants to be a part of one film has no place in the article and will most likely never come to fruition. In addition to this the argument "a grown man watching kids cartoons is notable" is flimsy as it asks to draw line between what is and isn't notable, i.e. is a man showing an interest in cars notable orbeing a comics reader? In addition to this the informations source is solely imdb, and imdb as a source is flimsy at best as the fact checking is rather non-existant. Adding trivia from imdb to pages just looks unprofessional and unencyclopedic and is simply a weak source. If a source other than imdb can not be found then it's fair to say the information is also false as well as not notable. In regards to the Bob Orton page this has happened before and is still happening again {see DaffyDuck619 (talk · contribs)'s additions to Batman and other topics - they tend to be either unsourced or the source is imdb). This is why I think such information is rather useless and unencyclopedic and has no place in the article. --- Lid 15:57, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The compromise that it would be put in the personal information section, yet lil crazy thing still deleted it as she felt it wasn't notable and she encouraged others to do so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DaffyDuck619 (talk • contribs) .

Stop singling me out if you actually took notice you would see i werent the one to first remove it at all from that section, i didnt encourage no one they think for themselves and do what they think right how can i encourage people who think for themselves and people who i havent even spoken to, others were removing those things from the page before i did it, so stop it i'm not the one to blame, so stop it, you havent got an argument, you didnt even try to reply to the first part of the quesion the person asked, so your just trying to pass the blame but it's not going to work cos your actually in the wrong as i'm not to blame. Lil crazy thing 07:41, 25 June 2006 (UTC) (Strikeouts by mediator -- everyone please calm down. -- BrownHornet21 15:06, 25 June 2006 (UTC))[reply]

calm down! i get the blame for something which is completely untrue his allowed to say it and accuse me of things and i'm not allow to comment on it, yeah thats really fair. Let me state again i have not encourage a single person on here i havent spoken to anyone who has editted it and i am not in anyway to blame i was not the first person to remove anything. If my things get striked out then that statement which duffy made should be aswell as if you look you can clearly see that is a false accusation, yet it's perfectly fine for him to make it. Lil crazy thing 16:23, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm reading the proposed compromises and it states that "should they influence his work in the ring (e.g., he starts yelling out "this spinebuster's for you, Scooby Doo!") or in the recording studio (e.g., records a song about Kim Possible)" well his love for cartoons sort of does as waaay back when he was rapping to the ring he mentioned cartoons in a whole lot of them. He's mentioned cartoons most recently in the Raw after Wrestlemania 22 where he called HHH and Edge "He-man and Skeletor" and when Edge called him "She-ra" you can see him mouth "No I'm Dave". DaffyDuck619

Edge called Triple H She-Ra in reference to his outlandish Wrestlemania 22 entrance, not Cena, and the mouthing is totally unverifiable. -- Lid 02:08, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

no Edge said to Triple H at least he doesn't go round dressed up like Conan The Barbarian, in reference to his WM22 entrance, then John Cena brought up He-Man and Skeletor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DaffyDuck619 (talk • contribs)

I don't know who's right or wrong on this point, but it doesn't really matter; either way they don't really indicate that Cena watches particular channels that influence his work. The proposal is to mention that he loves cartoons in the personal section, but refrain from mentioning specific channels unless he's been referencing them in his work, so that everyone can agree that they clearly influence his work. BrownHornet21 04:07, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, wouldn't it count as affecting his career, since he once upon a time he used to mention the cartoons that are constantly playing on Boomerang, Cartoon Network, Disney and Nickelodeon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DaffyDuck619 (talk • contribs)

From what I've seen on the edits to the John Cena page, I don't know that he currently mentions those things enough to meet the minimum notability threshold. But if you can show everyone one with a few reliable, verifiable sources that Cena repeatedly does ties in those channels or specific shows on those channels into his wrestling career, enough to where you could make a very decent argument that these specific channels or shows are a significant influence to his career, then that absolutely would be worth considering. But that doesn't have to happen today or tomorrow to resolve this current dispute; can you currently agree to a truce and the mediator's proposal above "as is," until someone can find reliable, verifiable sources to back this up? BrownHornet21 03:46, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Successful Resolution!

We have reached a consensus and an agreement. Thanks to the participants for their comments and for reaching a compromise! I'll go ahead and close this case out. BrownHornet21 22:31, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]