Talk:Turkish people

On "Turkish Nation"

According to the definition　by the state of Turkey, "Turkish Nation" (Türk Milleti) exists. But, this is different concept (political concept) and one of the Turkic peoples is explained in the this article. I think description of nation has to be removed and if need, the article Turkish Nation can be created. Thank you. Takabeg (talk) 21:35, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

The following quotation from an academical research explains the issue: The word "Turk" or "Turkish" is used for two different meanings: first, it is a name for the people who migrated from Central Asia to Anatolia, and chose to make this land their country. Second, it is also used as term of national identity for the people living in Turkey. The Turkish national identity defined in the Turkish Constitution is a legal conception, not an ethnic one. You can check the article from this link of pa.edu.tr. It is better that a nation stays in the introductory statement. Thank you. ModulaX6 (talk) 04:01, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

We should remember the meaning of the nation: Nation can refer to people who share a common territory and government (for example the inhabitants of a sovereign state) irrespective of their ethnic make-up; that is, a nation state. In the same way, Turkey is also a nation state, and all the people (whatever their ethnicity are) are defined as "Turkish" in the Turkish Constitution. Thanks. ModulaX6 (talk) 04:17, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

I think he means Turkish nation isn't in the scope of this article. Kavas (talk) 20:53, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

Why ?

Why are you (editors editing this article) only adding information about politics, demographics? The editors here removed cultural information on Turkish people, but did not rewrite the paragraph. Are you planning add "culture"? Kavas (talk) 17:21, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

I did not remove anything, feel free to add it if it is concise and sourced. Cavann (talk) 19:30, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Done. Kavas (talk) 12:10, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

grammar check

"Modern Turkish people primarily descend from these indigenous groups, in addition to neighboring peoples and Turkic peoples, despite speaking a Turkic language, which was adopted by the local populations who predominantly had spoken Indo-European languages." Is the sentence properly written? Kavas (talk) 13:39, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

No, it isn't. Seems to me like maybe it is Cavann who should learn English before suggesting others to do so. --Mttll (talk) 08:16, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

WP:OOA

Reverting even the most simplest of things. I urge you here to stop this, Cavann. --Mttll (talk) 08:14, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Turkish people/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: QatarStarsLeague (talk · contribs) 15:22, 13 August 2013 (UTC) Fascinating article! Review will proceed soon. QatarStarsLeague (talk) 15:22, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

This is a marvelous work. Both the images and the prose pass. I have never reviewed an article of this volume in which there are no issues to be allayed. Excellent nomination, and a congratulations! QatarStarsLeague (talk) 00:00, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks QatarStarsLeague! Cavann (talk) 04:39, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

POV?

I'm getting the impression that this article is trying to convince its readers that Turks are native to Asia Minor. Turks are bearers of the Turkic culture, not Anatolian. They are indeed, genetically, far from the "pure" Turkic people such as Turkems, Uzbeks and Kyrgyz, but that doesn't change the facts that Turks are Turkic people and culturally, have nothing to do with the ancient Anatolians. The sentence "Modern Turkish people primarily descend from these indigenous groups" isn't clear enough. One can think that the Turks are just the modern form of the ancient Anatolians, like Italians are of the ancient Romans, which isn't really the case. --Երևանցի ^talk 00:12, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

You are absolutely right. You can't find another source who approaches the Turkish people like the lead of this article does. This is just a one-man POV show of User:Cavann. --Mttll (talk) 00:47, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

This article apishly asserts that Turkish people are native to Anatolia, and originally of ancient indigenous people of Anatolia such as Greeks and Armenians. If so, it means that Anatolia is the motherland of today's Turkish people. In my opinion, the article's intro should be changed. Turkish people is a different ethnic group descending from Turkic tribes migrating to Anatolia, but not a total mixture of Greeks, Armenians etc as it's claimed as a hypothesis in the article's intro ridiculously. In fact, it's not scientific, just includes POV of a few jagged editors. Indigenous people of Anatolia left Turkey with Population exchange between Greece and Turkey, and Tehcir Law. By making Turkish people the mixture of Armenian and Greek means nothing than asserting that Turkish people are the owner of Anatolia. 141.196.81.85 (talk) 09:53, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

In the article this claim is sourced with 7 (!) academic sources. If any other claims with respectable references are available, feel free to discuss them in talk page, instead of criticizing the well-sourced information in such manner. Bests, Ali-al-Bakuvi (talk) 14:16, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

You can give 100 academic sources. The problem here is the tone and the POV wording. --Երևանցի ^talk 17:32, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

I ignored this nonsensical crap, do not take that as permission to disrupt this article. Take your "concerns" to the likes of US Congress of Library sources, and Cavalli-Sforza, and journal articles. Cavann (talk) 20:08, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to ask you to use a more appropriate language. Read my comments over. I don't dispute the reliability of the given sources. The way this article is written is what makes it biased. It is trying to convince the reader that Turks are native to Anatolia, which isn't the case. --Երևանցի ^talk 20:28, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Find reliable sources, and quote them. I am not interested in opinions or interpretations of far-right nationalistic types, such as yourself, [1] [2] or what you imagine the article is trying to "convince readers". This will be my final response to you, unless you find reliable sources to "set the tone" you want. I'm not here to waste my time. Cavann (talk) 20:42, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Nice research, friend! Dig deeper, I guarantee you'll find even more interesting stuff. --Երևանցի ^talk 20:46, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

By the way, don't forget to look at my achievements. I'm really sad you didn't say anything about them. --Երևանցի ^talk 20:51, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Of course the article should say that Turkish people at least have a huge level of descent from native peoples of Anatolia (Greeks, Armenians and the Anatolic peoples before them, Phrygians, etc) as modern science has now determined that they are indeed indigenous. If the article didn't say this, there would be a problem. I'm sorry that the scientifically proven truth is disturbing to certain nationalist viewpoints, but really, science is science. --Yalens (talk) 18:11, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Nobody here argues the fact that the Turks are genetically not much different from neighboring ethnic groups and are largely descending from the indigenous peoples. It's not hard to see that their appearance is no much different from the Armenians or the Greeks. My point is that genetics should not be the lede. Genetics does not affect anything in reality. Turks are not bearers of the culture of those indigenous peoples, but they are bearers of the culture of the Turkic peoples who migrated from Central Asia.

Some users who are desperate to prove the nativity and the "genetic continuity" theory of the Turks are including maps of the Hittite era, which has no connection to the modern Turkish people whatsoever. Its inclusion makes me wonder who has nationalistic aspirations here. Interesting how the fact that most of eastern Turkey was inhabited by the Armenians since at least 6th century BC to 1915-1920 (for almost 2,5000 years!!!) and not even one word is written about that. No wonder why Turkey still denies the genocide. --Երևանցի ^talk 18:44, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Read Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section. The lead should summarize the article. We are not supposed to leave out information just because editors such as yourself do no like it. Talking about "nationalistic aspirations," you are the one who supports violence to create United Armenia.[3] Wikipedia is not a soapbox or means of promotion. Cavann (talk) 18:53, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

LOL I thought you didn't have time for me? What has changed? Aren't you afraid to waste your time on me? And why did you leave out the genocide part? Or maybe that's a far-right aspiration too, huh? Oh yeah, I forgot that cherry-picking is one of your hobbies. My mistake. --Երևանցի ^talk 19:07, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a forum. I am not sure how Armenian Genocide relates to the lead of this article. Cavann (talk) 19:33, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Yalens seems to be the one who has revived this discussion. Eastern half of Anatolia was inhabited by Armenians for 2,500 years. If you don't see how it relates to this article then I suggest you do some research instead of "wasting" your priceless time on useless forum-like discussions as you describe. Have a nice day! --Երևանցի ^talk 20:01, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Urartians are already mentioned in the article and there's more stuff about Armenians in genetics section. But, sorry, we cannot say "Eastern half of Anatolia was inhabited by Armenians for 2,500 years" or how millions of them died in Armenian genocide in the lead. This is not the Armenian people article. Cavann (talk) 20:09, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

What do Urartians have to do with the Armenians? Why can't we? Did the Armenians appear in the Armenian Highland just now or what? Or Hittites are more relevant, because they are already gone? Ever read of thousands of Armenian orphans being taken by Turkish, Kurdish families and raised as Turks and Kurds? Armenian women taken into harems and their children raised as Turks? Crypto-Armenians? Experts, journalists, historians talking about hundreds of thousands of Turks of Armenian descend? Armenian churches being used as mosques? Oh, that's not relevant to the Turks at all. When did I say we should mention the genocide in the lede? Armenians have been a major part of the Ottoman Empire for centuries. The Armenians civilization was wiped out from Turkey in 1915, their cultural heritage largely destroyed, their properties confiscated and that's not even relevant. For example Uğur Ümit Üngör states that "the construction of an étatist Turkish 'national economy' was unthinkable without the destruction and expropriation of Armenians." That's irrelevant too. --Երևանցի ^talk 20:49, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Here are some sources

• Norman M. Naimark, 2002 [4]
• Daniel Goldhagen, 2010 [5]

Moderm Turkish people aren't Ancient Anatolians.

Moderm Turkish people mostly descent: Albanian, Serb, Macedonians, Bulgarian, Crimean, Circassian, Georgian, Laz, Kurd, Zaza, Arap, Cretan and Mongol-Nogai were islamised made by Ottoman Sultan(Caliph). Now they call themselves (Pseudo)Turks.

What happened to the indigenous people of Anatolia?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamidian_massacres

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adana_massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_genocide

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zilan_massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dersim_Massacre — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.22.169.73 (talk) 19:58, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Cavalli-Sforza book

Alexikoua removed this, [6] saying "source doesn't say this, it says only about Byzantine era population". Yet the source talks about "aborigines," ie: "indigenous groups" in the text.

“ The Turks are also defined by the country of origin. Turkey, once Asia Minor or Anatolia, has a very long and complex history. It was one of the major regions of agricultural development in the early Neolithic and may have been the place of origin and spread of lndo-European languages at that time. The Turkish language was imposed on a predominantly lndo-European-speaking population (Greek being the official language of the Byzantine empire), and genetically there is very little difference between Turkey and the neighboring countries. The number of Turkish invaders was probably rather small and was genetically diluted by the large number of aborigines. ”

L. Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza; Paolo, Menozzi; Alberto, Piazza (1994). The history and geography of human genes. Princeton University Press. p. 243.

I will be adding this source back. Cavann (talk) 18:14, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Cavann. Jingiby (talk) 19:01, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

No. Its not about genetics, its about ethnicity which somebody declare, culture, language, citizenship... Genetically there is a "little difference" between all people on the world.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:17, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Read British people, another GA, where they talk about where they descend. Cavann (talk) 20:15, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

I did. It says: "it is possible that future genetic studies of ancient and modern human DNA may help to inform our understanding of the subject" but "early studies have, so far, tended to produce implausible conclusions from very small numbers of people and using outdated assumptions about linguistics and archaeology." That is written in 2007. Your source is from 1994. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:14, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

I fail to see the relevance. Are you going to eliminate every similar source on Wikipedia based on that sentence? Plus Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza's book is a very solid source. "Cavalli-Sforza's The History and Geography of Human Genes[4] (1994 with Paolo Menozzi and Alberto Piazza) is a standard reference on human genetic variation." Plus there are sources later than 2007 in the article. Cavann (talk) 19:55, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

You yourself refulted your position when you pointed to the link which emphasize that gene studies of the past still can only produce implausible conclusions. "Critics of Cavalli-Sforza's work have increased in recent years, and critics of new gene studies of the past have always been active..." - Pamela Kyle Crossley (2008). What is Global History. Polity. p. 40. ISBN 978-0-7456-3301-5. Retrieved 2 September 2013.. I suggest you to WP:DROPTHESTICK here.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:23, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

That response would have been more relevant if there weren't 5 other sources. I suggest you to read WP:Reliable. Cavann (talk)`

I did. It says Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in an article. None of the sources you presented here directly support your assertion. I suggest you to read Don't shoot yourself in the foot essay.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:42, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

I think we are having a WP:Competence issue here.

Eg: "This analysis allows us to build the case for incommensurable, long-term, and continuing genetic signatures in both Anatolia and Siberia, and for significant mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosome divergence between the regions, with minimal admixture. We supplement the case against mass migration with correlative archeological, historical, and linguistic data, and suggest that it was irregular punctuated migration events that engendered large-scale shifts in language and culture among Anatolia's diverse autochthonous inhabitants." [7]

Cavann (talk) 21:46, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Agree with Antid.. A cheap attempt to support a theory of national autochthony. A have also to note there is nowhere in the article stated that pre-Turkish (11th c.) Anatolia was predominantly Greek and Armenian speaking [[8]].Alexikoua (talk) 07:52, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Did you read the article?

"After Alexander the Great's conquest, the area was Hellenized.[74]"

"Nonetheless, the Turkish language and Islam were introduced and gradually spread over the region and the slow transition from a predominantly Christian and Greek-speaking Anatolia to a predominantly Muslim and Turkish-speaking one was underway.[101]"

"Although the Ottomans were only a small principality among the numerous Turkish beyliks, and thus posed the smallest threat to the Byzantine authority, their location in north-western Anatolia, in the former Byzantine province of Bithynia, became a fortunate position for their future conquests. The Latins, who had conquered the city of Constantinople in 1204 during the Fourth Crusade, established a Latin Empire (1204–61), divided the former Byzantine territories in the Balkans and the Aegean among themselves, and forced the Byzantine Emperors into exile at Nicaea (present-day Iznik). From 1261 onwards, the Byzantines were largely preoccupied with regaining their control in the Balkans.[109]"

And some more. Info about Greeks/Byzantines is way more than Hittites.Cavann (talk) 20:25, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

There can be a brief mention of pre-Turkish Anatolia (under the relevant title), but this should be limited to ca. a couple of centuries before 11th century, in order to describe the situation in Anatolia just when (and a little before) the first Turkish tribes arrived. In no case can this goes back to the Bronze Age... 2 or 3 millenia before...

Dont you see the incosistency? The 1st paragraph is about antiquity in Anatolia and the following one (just in the same section) mentions the first Turkic tribes in central Asia... Alexikoua (talk) 11:23, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

This is a Good Article, it needs to be comprehensive. See: Wikipedia:Good_article_criteria

"The above quote is under "INCEPTION AS A NATION" for the chapter "Turks: nationality." Your arguments are getting even more bizarre. Cavann (talk) 21:51, 1 September 2013 (UTC)" Cavann (talk) 17:25, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Your source is little better than a travel guide. It is very generalist in nature, and it is just one source after all. The way the article received its GA status is questionable. The reviewer didn't make a single comment or suggestion. Nothing, he just passed it, just like that. Even though the article is plagued with problem with POV problems (a strong primordialist/nativist current), not to mention ridiculous number inflation using dubious sources in the infobox. When I have more time I will ask for a reassessment of the GA status, and we will see just how much of a GA the wikipedia community thinks of it. You also seem to think that the fact that the article is for now a GA means that it is not to be edited by others and that you WP:OWN it. Wrong on both counts. Athenean (talk) 06:18, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

I come up with peer-reviewed journal articles and encyclopedias; you come up with imaginary "majority of literature." Do you have a review article, that goes over this literature?

Oh, and please do. The more eyes on this article, the better. Cavann (talk) 07:54, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

I am afraid this is WP:IDHT case. You yourself refuted your own position when you pointed to the link which says (in 2007) that gene studies of the past still can only produce implausible conclusions. I presented 2008 work written by Pamela Kyle Crossley who clearly say "Critics of Cavalli-Sforza's work have increased in recent years, and critics of new gene studies of the past have always been active...". This author continues: "The vast majority of the genetics (including Cavalli-Sforza) have emphasized that there is no scientific basis for a concept of "race" ... and so much less a scientific basis for "national" identities. Yet in his publications he and his team normally use racial and national terms to describe their populations. This raises the question of circular reasoning...Anthropologists and historians of culture would respond that racial and national categories are obviously not objective, but are "social constructions" - controlled by general patterns of group thinking and public expressions... For population genetics such as those working in the Cavalli-Sforza mode, making a contribution beyond what anthropologists and cultural historians have already surmised would seem to require transcending the ideologically charged and a priori subjective vocabulary of race and nationality.". Please WP:DROPTHESTICK.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:26, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

What link are you talking about? And what are you talking about? All these sources, including those later than 2008, do not lose legitimacy solely based on what "Pamela Kyle Crossley" "clearly say"s. You do not make any sense whatsoever.

And what "race and nationality"? I am the one who added "The Turkish people, or the Turks (Turkish: Türkler), are citizens" which is being discussed in the section below. Do you actually have any idea what is going on? Did you think I said "Turks are a race"? Your comments are bizarrely irrelevant. Cavann (talk) 08:32, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Nationality is often used as a synonym for citizenship in English. Please WP:DROPTHESTICK. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:59, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

I am aware. Bizarrely irrelevant again. Cavann (talk) 16:40, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

You first bolded citizenship and now you proclaim it irrelevant. Your editing here is tendentious and disruptive. Have you considered disengaging? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:52, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

I should, because I don't think you have WP:competence. You are the one who mentioned "race and nationality" and then assumed citizenship implies race, because nationality is often used as a synonym for citizenship in English. You are the one who assumed quote from National Museum Wales in British people was talking about all relevant studies, instead of only about early work that Oppenheimer cited to support his opinion about British people. You are the one who assumed some quote from Pamela Kyle Crossley invalidates all research in this area. You are the one who confuses descent and background with race, or racial theories. I will not be responding to you bizarrely irrelevant comments that are completely nonsensical. And yes, your comments are irrelevant, because none of what you said is relevant to what is being discussed about the text of the article. Wikipedia is not a forum. Cavann (talk) 18:59, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

My comments present assertions supported by scholarly sources which refute your position based solely on Cavalli-Sforza source. The link you pointed to presents scholarly opinion about all "early genetic studies of the past" not Oppenheimer's work. Work of Pamela Kyle Crossley does not refer to "all research in this area" but only to "a contribution beyond what anthropologists and cultural historians have already surmised" otherwise it would be transcending the ideologically charged and a priori subjective vocabulary of race and nationality." Your claim that I "assumed citizenship implies race" after I explained that Nationality is often used as a synonym for citizenship in English is just another blatant misinterpretation. Please WP:DROPTHESTICK.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:35, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

My position is not solely based on Cavalli-Sforza. That seems to be one of your other bizarre assumptions even though I already pointed out other sources before, some of them as late as 2011. Cavann (talk) 16:43, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, your position is solely based on C-S because none of the sources you brought directly support your assertion per wp:reliable.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:54, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Another bizzare statement. I already a gave you a quote and link to a 2011 journal article in this discussion.[9]. There are more sources in the text of the article as well.Cavann (talk) 18:05, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

This discussion here seems to be very similar to the one I have brought up before. Like I said, this is Turkish Republican rhetoric that is highly controversial and needs to be treated as such. Turkish laws regarding citizenship are opinionated descriptions of citizenship and race but is never a fact set in stone. Neither are the authors and writers that present it as a fact. Citizenship and race in Turkey is a HUGE problem. Many politicians have tried to solve the issue through legislative reform but failed miserably (See here). Others, like Hrant Dink, have even been prosecuted and eventually assassinated in Turkey just because they said that they are "Armenian". Please, let us not present these notions as fact, but as a highly controversial and ever so problematic issue for the country. Proudbolsahye (talk) 13:47, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Mahidevran is not an ethnic Turk

...in fact her ethnic background is a matter of debate. Many argue that she is Albanian or from the Caucasus. I will remove her image without any further objections. Proudbolsahye (talk) 13:27, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Changed. The images can be exclusive, but the text needs to be inclusive, including all viewpoints. Cavann (talk) 17:36, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Turkish citizens are not Turkish "people"

This is a myth set up within the legal framework of the Turkish Republic and particularly its constitution. Unfortunately, it has now spilled into Wikipedia. Just because someone has Turkish citizenship does not make one a "Turk". In fact, some have even been prosecuted and eventually assassinated in Turkey just because they said that they are "Armenian". Please let us not have this nonsense spill into this encyclopedia. We all know that there is a stark difference between ethnicity and citizenship, which is a common understanding in the western world. I will remove without objection. Proudbolsahye (talk) 13:34, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Leave it. I'm getting sick of everyone trying to push their POV in this article. Official definition should be there. There is also further explanation.

"During Ottoman times, the millet system defined communities on a religious basis, and a residue of this remains in that Turkish villagers will commonly consider as Turks only those who profess the Sunni faith, and will consider Turkish-speaking Jews, Christians, or even Alevis to be non-Turks.[90] On the other hand, Kurdish-speaking or Arabic-speaking Sunnis of eastern Anatolia are sometimes considered to be Turks.[91] The imprecision of the appellation Türk can also be seen with other ethnic names, such as Kürt (Kurd), which is often applied by western Anatolians to anyone east of Adana, even those who speak only Turkish.[90] In recent years, centrist Turkish politicians have attempted to redefine this category in a more multi-cultural way, emphasizing that a Türk is anyone who is a citizen of the Republic of Turkey.[92] Currently, article 66 of the Turkish Constitution defines a "Turk" as anyone who is "bound to the Turkish state through the bond of citizenship." Although, since 1960s, the Kurdish nationalism has re-emerged.[93] Currently, a new constitution is being written, which may address citizenship and ethnicity issues.[94]" Cavann (talk) 17:26, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Interpretations of Turkish citizenship, whether they be legal or historical, can go into the body of the article but not into the lead. Currently, a highly controversial and utterly non-nonsensical sentence such as "The Turkish people, or the Turks (Turkish: Türkler), are citizens or natives of Turkey, and their descendants..." ultimately presents an argument that is highly controversial in not only international law, but in Turkish society today...to say the least. This lead does not even mention a word about Turks being people that belong to a certain ethnic group. The Russian people, Greek people, Poles, and etc. articles all refer to those people as an ethnic group. A certain Turkish Republican rhetoric has engulfed this article and needs to be removed. I propose changing the first sentence back to its original language:

The Turkish people, or the Turks, (Turkish: Türkler), are an ethnic group primarily living in Turkey, and in the former lands of the Ottoman Empire where Turkish minorities have been established. Proudbolsahye (talk) 06:20, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Support this wording. Excellent point. Athenean (talk) 06:33, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

I looked at GA ethnicity articles, and then found British people. Russian people and Poles are not GA. Greek people cannot be an example to Turkish people, given that Greece is very homogenous, and I am not interested in the region, besides Turkey.Cavann (talk) 07:52, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the GA reviewer may or may not have overlooked these claims. There needs to be a further reassessment with the nomination. There are serious flaws when it comes to this article. If these problems are met, I'll be more than happy to keep the article in its current status as GA. Proudbolsahye (talk) 14:53, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with this wording, if "Turkish nationality law, which regulates current Turkish citizenship and nationality, is based primarily on the principle of jus sanguinis." also stays. Cavann (talk) 16:38, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Here's what I propose...reinserting "The Turkish people, or the Turks, (Turkish: Türkler), are an ethnic group primarily living in Turkey, and in the former lands of the Ottoman Empire where Turkish minorities have been established." as the first sentence in the lead. You can discuss citizenship and race on the basis of jus sanguinis in the body of the article. Proudbolsahye (talk) 17:02, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

What "citizenship and race"? Cavann (talk) 18:48, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Jus sanguinis or "right of blood" refers to racial or ethnic characteristics as determinants. If Turkey practices this as a form of citizenry and ethnic relations (you might call national), it must be explained in the body of the article. However, it should not the first sentence of the article. I am now changing the first sentence to its original wording. Proudbolsahye (talk) 19:33, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

I have no problem with that. Cavann (talk) 00:33, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Is there still a need for a third opinion here?

No. Issue resolved. Proudbolsahye (talk) 13:30, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

OK, I will remove the article from the list then. Martin Hogbin (talk) 15:16, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Nope, not resolved. See Talk:Turkish_people#2.2B_millenia_time_gap_.28Hittites_at_the_first_paragraph_of_the_history_of_Turkish_people.3F.29. Cavann (talk) 16:36, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I believe the is talking about this specific section. The first sentence of the lead has changed. This section ("Turkish citizens are not Turkish "people"") may be removed. Proudbolsahye (talk) 17:03, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

No he is not. Read the entry in third opinion page. This specific section is solved, but not the Talk:Turkish_people#2.2B_millenia_time_gap_.28Hittites_at_the_first_paragraph_of_the_history_of_Turkish_people.3F.29 one.Cavann (talk) 17:51, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Third opinion is only suitable for disputes with only two editors involved. There seems to be more than two here so I will leave you to it. Martin Hogbin (talk) 18:03, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

2+ millenia time gap (Hittites at the first paragraph of the history of Turkish people?)

A really wonder whats the meaning to mention the Hittites, and other Bronze age info about Anatolia, as part of the history of the Turkish people. For sure there is a huge time gap (some millenia) before the first presence of Turkish people in that region.Alexikoua (talk) 17:58, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

I can only assume that this is just part of an ulranationalist autochtony theory, which has no place, for sure, in this community.Alexikoua (talk) 18:00, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Read the sources. It is interesting that you deleted an entire paragraph based only on your assumptions. Cavann (talk) 18:01, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

No encyclopedia would ever have a map of the Hittite Empire in an article about the Turkish people. This is like an asylum taken over by a madman. --Mttll (talk) 18:20, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

If by asylum, you mean reliable sources, sure. And by encyclopedia, you prolly mean 50-year old print ones that you got from a newspaper. Cavann (talk) 18:35, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

No, by encyclopedia, I mean any kind of encyclopedia. As for reliable sources, all they say is that modern Turkish people partially descend from pre-Turkish Anatolians in terms of genetics. How do you go from that to inserting a Hittite Empire map into an article about Turkish people when there is over 2 thousand years gap between them? By being insane of course. --Mttll (talk) 19:22, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

LOL, you learn to read first before throwing around words. Various sources start with prehistory, Hittites, etc, (books, US Library of Congress country profile, etc) when they are starting history of Turkey. Turkish people also mean citizens of Turkey. Cavann (talk) 19:35, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

(ignore trolling) Exactly, not a single reference confirms that there is an ancestral link between Hittites-Bronze Age/Ancient Anatolia populations and Turkish people, especially when we have a huge time gap this is completely science fiction. This isn't the history of Turkey but of the Turkish people. So, in case no serious mainstream reference is provided to confirm it, this paragraph gets out as an extreme case of wp:synth, wp:or, wp:pov.Alexikoua (talk) 19:40, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

The only relevant fact I see in mainstream bibliography, is that this was an unhistorical theory (national myth) "According to the Turkish myth, the Hittites were bonafide "Turks"!. The tiny Ottoman state was the catalyst of a titanic rebirth! it meant the reawakening of the Hittite Turk gloriously returning as the Ottoman Turk.". There is no serious argument in order to add this as real history.Alexikoua (talk) 19:53, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

This gets even more problematic since the users that contributed to this article, choose specific groups of peoples that lived in the are of modern Turkey, (Hittites etc.), but on the other hand population such as the Anatolian Greeks or Armenians, who lived in the past in this region, are not even part of this strange mix of populations.Alexikoua (talk) 20:00, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

I think the problem here is that Cavann is mixing up Turkey and Turkish people, which are different topics, and hence why they have separate articles. Athenean (talk) 21:06, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Source:Stokes, Jamie; Gorman, Anthony (2010), "Turks: nationality", Encyclopedia of the Peoples of Africa and the Middle East, Infobase Publishing, ISBN 143812676X. Pages: 721-722

“ INCEPTION AS A NATION

Archaeologist have discovered some of the oldest known human structures, a series of ritual or temple sites, in southern Anatolia. Dating from 9000 or 8000 b.c.e., structures at Gobekli Tepe and other places are believed to have been built by preagricultural cultures and include some of the earliest representations of human and animal figures ever discovered. Bronze Age technology also came to Anatolia early, and the peninsula was one of the centers of early civilization from the fourth millennium b.c.e. In the third millennium b.c.e. Anatolia was part of the Akkadian Empire, the world’s earliest known empire, and seems to have been an important source of metals for its Mesopotamian overlords (see Akkadians). The greatest indigenous civilization to arise in Anatolia was that of the Hittites, which thrived from the 17th to the 14th centuries b.c.e. and enjoyed a revival between about 1200 and 700 b.c.e. This was supplanted by the Lydian Kingdom (see Lydians), which was then conquered by the Iranian Achaemenid Empire in the sixth century b.c.e. (see Achaemenids; Persians). Conquest by Alexander the Great in the fourth century b.c.e. was followed by rule under the Seleucids (see Greeks) and eventual incorporation into Roman territory (see Romans) in the second century b.c.e. Parts of Anatolia were ruled by the Romans and their successors, the Byzantines, for over a thousand years until the 15th century c.e. Other parts of Anatolia, especially in the south and east, were ruled by a succession of colorful and powerful kingdoms including the Armenians, the Seljuk sultans of Rum (see Seljuks; Turkic Peoples), and the Ilkhans. The movement of Turkic peoples into Anatolia began in the 11th century c.e. following the defeat of Byzantine forces by the Seljuks at Manzikert in 1071....

”

If the paragraph is not restored, I'm reporting this at ANI. Cavann (talk) 23:21, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Exactly for that reason the paragraph has no place in this article. I don't see the word "Turkish" (or similar terms) in pre-11th century Anatolian history. Moreover, an inclusion will be also inconsistent with similar article about ethnic groups, for example Germans (pre-Germanic Germany is excluded), Serbs (pre-Slav Serbia excluded), Russians (same).Alexikoua (talk) 09:28, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

In general and since the article is about an ethnic group, not a state, bibliography focused on ethnology is helpful. For example this one The Turks in World History. No wonder, the only reference to the Hitites is in p.208, but refers to 1930s ultranationlist theories ("fantastic theories"). This isn't history as explained above.Alexikoua (talk) 09:35, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

The above quote is from a chapter for Turks in an encyclopedia. It's weird you do not see the the word "Turkish". This article is about Turks/Turkish people. Cavann (talk) 16:27, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

It's weird you see a similar term in this text prior to 11th century Seljuk invasion. I'm sorry I can't help you much on that. Off course pre-Turkish Anatolia isn't part of this article.Alexikoua (talk) 07:47, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

The above quote is under "INCEPTION AS A NATION" for the chapter "Turks: nationality." Your arguments are getting even more bizarre. Cavann (talk) 21:51, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

The Hittitea have NOTHING to do with the inception of the Turkish nation. Stop adding irrelevant material to this article. This isn't the article on Anatolia. Athenean (talk) 01:11, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Read relevant reliable sources. Wikipedia is not the place to push your POV. Cavann (talk) 01:20, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Nonsense. That is just a low quality generalist source that conflates Turkey with Turkish people. The majority of the literature on the subject does not include Neolithic sites into the "inception of the Turkish nation. Gobekli Tepe? Catalhoyuk? You must be joking. Threatening other editors and repeating yourself like a broken record will get you nowhere, only to a well-deserved block (by now). Athenean (talk) 05:57, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Please remain civil ("repeating yourself like a broken record"). Where's this "majority of the literature"? Here's a secondary source, that is it is peer reviewed:

“ It also offers us a most parsimonious, if not unanticipated, explanation of Turk ethnogenesis: the vast

pre-Turkic-speaking populations of Anatolia and Siberia came to be called Turkish or Turkic due to various large-scale language- and culture-shifts beginning in the European Middle Ages and not ending until the early twentieth century.

”

Source: Yardumian, A.; Schurr, T. G. (2011). "Who Are the Anatolian Turks?". Anthropology & Archeology of Eurasia. 50: 6. doi:10.2753/AAE1061-1959500101 Cavann (talk) 07:46, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Exactly! ...beginning in the European Middle Ages. One more reason to exclude this bizarre Hettite claims.Alexikoua (talk) 23:06, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

LOL. You missed the "the vast pre-Turkic-speaking populations of Anatolia" part. That's why a paragraph is appropriate.Cavann (talk) 02:25, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

So what? pre-Turkic populations from the Middle Ages. You don't believe that the Hittites were still living in a region that witnessed multiple population movements in the meantime right?Alexikoua (talk) 05:49, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

I guess English is not your first language. That is not what the quote says. It says the cultural shifts occurred starting in middle ages.Cavann (talk) 20:09, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

At which point the "vast pre-Turkic population of Anatolia" was no longer Ancient Anatolian, but largely Greek-speaking, Armenian-speaking, Kurdish speaking, etc...Thank you for showing the wikipedia community how your point is self-defeating. Athenean (talk) 20:29, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes. Hellenization, Greek language, Byzantines, etc are already mentioned in this article. I'm not leaving that out. But you are trying to push your POV, by trying to exclude that paragraph about Ancient Anatolians.Cavann (talk) 20:32, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Gobekli Tepe, Catalhoyuk, the Hattians and Hittites are irrelevant to this article. What does the fact that Catalhoyk may be the "first ever city" have to do with the Turkish people? This is not a travel guide. The Hattians and Hittites were long extinct as distinct identities before the arrival of the Turks. A brief mention that Anatolia was under the rule of the Byzantine Empire and inhabited by Greek-speakers and Armenian speakers is all that is needed. By the way, most of your oh-so reliable sources for that section consist of travel guides, e.g. Lonely Planet and the The Rough Guide. So much for that argument. Athenean (talk) 21:22, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

"By the way, most of your oh-so reliable sources for that section consist of travel guides" is a laughable comment, coming from someone who edit wars and removes content based on personal opinion. Those sources offered a quick summary, but I can also use "The Oxford Handbook of Ancient Anatolia." Talking about sources, you did not even bother to link the source for FreedmanMyers, be more careful when you are copy and pasting. And none of the sources talk about culture extinction.

And please do not repeat yourself, the rationale of "Gobekli Tepe, Catalhoyuk, the Hattians and Hittites" were provided by reliable sources, including a peer-reviewed journal article. Mentioning these info in few sentences is not UNDUE. Deleting all that and expanding info about Byzantine rule, when it is already mentioned so many times in the rest of history section is so ridiculously POV, I think you are trying to help me with your future Arbitration case, just like when you are warning others about "rv WP:IDONTLIKEIT removal of relevant, reliably sourced information" when you -yourself- are doing the same.[10] Cavann (talk) 20:39, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

@Cavann: There is no need to express extreme wp:own activity. In case of travel guides we should be very carefull. By the way why you are using Wikipedia:WIAFA as an excuse to revert (again)? The specific article isn't in fa status. Since you didn't liked the section split of two irrelevant (both geographically and chronologically) paragraphs, a more complex title is needed. Moreover, you don't believe that 6th century Gogturks were part of Bronze Age/Ancient history right?[[11]]Alexikoua (talk) 21:36, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Well, this turns to be quite childish: 2nd blind revert in zero time [[12]]. What's the pov? Using the term pre-Turkish for Ancient/Bronze Age Anatolia? I don't thing that this is the pov problem in this case... Alexikoua (talk) 21:39, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

How can it be FA if it doesn't comply with FA criteria? My goal here is to improve articles. Cavann (talk) 21:45, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

@Cavann: You need to explain why its funny when Ancient/Bronze Age Anatolia is termed "Pre-Turkish Anatolia". Moreover, why you add the Thracians again and again? They aren't mentioned at all inside +they mainly inhabited the Balkans. Also note that the way you can't explain your actions can easily mean that you just perform blind reverts as part of an extreme wp:own strategy.Alexikoua (talk) 22:03, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

I gave my answer here [13]. As for Thracians, unless you noticed, Eastern Thrace is in Balkans, and many Thracians did expand into Anatolia [14] [15]. They are currently not mentioned in the article, because of Athenian's deletion of reliably sourced relevant material.

Once again, if you do not have the WP:competence, do not make edits about things you do not know. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. Read the subject-matter, and then make informed edits.Cavann (talk) 22:14, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Completely unhistorical additon since according to this rational an addition of ca. 30 population groups should be added below the section title. Should I name them? (Cimmerians, Persians, Akkadians, Ancient Greeks, Arabs, Romans, etc...). By the way, what do you mean reliably sourced relevant material? Because secondary sources (contrary to travel guides and poorly cited non-academic tertiary sources) you mentioned above can't be considered as such, feel free to check wp:rs.Alexikoua (talk) 22:40, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

We have to choose most relevant links. Were they centered in today's Turkey's borders? Eg: [16] was centered around Edirne; Phrygians, who came from Balkans, had their capital in Gordium. However, you are right. Byzantines had their capital in Istanbul, so a link is warranted in that case.

As for the rest of what you wrote, read my answer to Athenian: 'Those sources offered a quick summary, but I can also use "The Oxford Handbook of Ancient Anatolia."' Cavann (talk) 22:56, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

GA reassessment

Due to the above mentioned problems, I believe a GA reassessment is necessary. Please vote for your support or disapproval along side with your reasons. Thank you. Proudbolsahye (talk) 16:45, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Good article reassessment says " it is rarely helpful to request a community reassessment for an article which has not had a proper review; it is usually simpler to renominate it. If some time has lapsed since a delisting or fail it is better to renominate.....Requesting reassessment during a content dispute or edit war is usually inappropriate, wait until the article stabilizes and then consider reassessment. If significant instability persists for more than a couple of weeks, then reassessment on the grounds of instability may be considered." No mention of poll or voting or community reassessment on the article's talkpage.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:32, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

It seems that 3 out of the 6 gan criteria aren't ok, but this is a personal opinion. As I see the nominator was quite quick in his comments and hadn't even mentioned how it passed all criteria. Alexikoua (talk) 21:58, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

By the way the couple of weeks period has passed, since according to this page various issues have been continuously raised since ca. 1 month.Alexikoua (talk) 22:59, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, you are right about this. Significant instability persists for more than a couple of weeks so the reassessment on the grounds of instability may be considered.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:09, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Another major issue is the lack of full citations, i.e. page numbers (or quotes in case of web pages), supposed to be fundamental for a ga nomination. There are still several cited journal articles which didn't say a word about the claimed facts.Alexikoua (talk) 21:16, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Lede

There has earlier been raised questions about one sentence in the lede, but it was not followed up at the time: "Modern Turkish people primarily descend from these indigenous groups, in addition to neighboring peoples and Turkic peoples, despite speaking a Turkic language, which was adopted by the local populations who predominantly had spoken Indo-European languages." I see some problems here.

• primarily vs. in addition to. If we take in addition to literary, it actually says that they descend from neighboring people and turkic people and, in addition, from indigenous groups (making the indigenous groups less important or at best equally important, but not more important). Even with a weaker interpretation of "in addition to" (taking it to mean "as well as" or just "and") it highlights that they descend from various groups and does not imply that any of the groups are significantly more important. Combining this with "primarily" does not make sense. If all the sources agree that the indigenous groups are most important, it could be stated as primarily combined with but also or similar. If all the sources agree on the diversity, it could be stated with in addition to (or as well as) without the word primarily. But you cannot have them both in the same sentence.
• despite is a tricky word. It reminds me ofvanish Ripley's Believe it or not: "Contrary to popular belief..." It is rather argumentative and suggests the message: "This should come as a surprice to you". But there is nothing surpricing in the fact that a mixture of population groups end up speaking a language that is not necessarily the language of the largest group. My earlier edit was reverted without any comment, possibly "by accident" together with other reverts. I try again.

Regards! --T*U (talk) 09:59, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

I think primarily and in aAchaeans of the ddition to are clear, but we can change it to but also, if it is confusing to some readers. As for the second part, the change you are suggesting is making the text less coherent. "They speak a Turkic language, which was adopted by the local populations who predominantly had spoken Indo-European languages." When were they speaking Indo-European languages, 50 years ago?? Why are we mentioning Indo-European languages if we are talking about the present. The time frame is more clear as one sentence. That paragraph is also like an historical overview, so switching to present is -again- making the paragraph less coherent. Actually two sentences make it better now. Cavann (talk) 19:04, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

The specific part is quite problematic. So, another question is why Turkish people descend only from these people that lived in Turkey before (Ancient Anatolians & Thracians), while they do not also descent from the rest of the people that lived before the 11th century (citations don't claim something like that).Alexikoua (talk) 21:37, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

By the way the 'page needed' tag, is placed in order to add the precise page where the claimed fact is found. Instead of disruptively removing it, it would be more civilized to carefully check the citation journal template (This Ancient Anatolian&Thracian ancestry +exclusion of all other population groups is really childish).Alexikoua (talk) 20:51, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Dear Cavann, in the journal template there are both "pages" & "page" options. So I'm kindly asking you to fill the page option too, per pn tag (that's supposed to be important for an article to become ga).Alexikoua (talk) 20:55, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

[17]. Cavann (talk) 20:58, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Let's see the very first line from Wikipedia:CITATION:

A full citation fully identifies a reliable source and, where applicable, the place in that source (such as a page number) where the information in question can be found.

Bingo. This means in case its impossible to give precise page numbers (or alternatively quotes) we have a huge wp:or concernt and all this fringe theory will soon go.Alexikoua (talk) 21:04, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

"where applicable". If you are having issues, given that English is your second language, try Wikipedia:Mentorship. Cavann (talk) 21:07, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

In this case they are needed. I wish you good luck in searching (Someone can easily assume that the claimed facts are nowhere to be found, so as a desperate attempt of disruption we have the weak argument that pages and quotes are not needed... quite childish). Full citation please!Alexikoua (talk) 23:16, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

You asked for page numbers for Yardumian et al, even though its abstract supports the sentence, and even though I have quoted that abstract in this talk page [18]. I think you have enough warnings now. I will be taking this to Arbitration next time.Cavann (talk) 23:25, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

(ignore trolling) Actually every single citation from no. 68 to no.74, lacks precise page numbers. I have to note that the poorly established argument that "journals don't need pages" is something a serious wikipedian should avoid. In general, removing the necessary tags can be easily described as an aggresive way of vandalism.

No wonder Yardumian doesn't claim that Turkish people came only from "Ancient Anatolians and Thracians" excluding all other populations that lived in Anatolia (i.e. Greeks, Armenians, due to obvious reaons). I assume that the same way of large-scale falsification of references occurred in the rest of the sources which lack the necessary pagenumber.Alexikoua (talk) 12:43, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

There is also Wikipedia:Verifiability, something I kindly ask to respect:

Attribute all quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged to a reliable, published source using an inline citation. Cite the source clearly and precisely (specifying page, section, or such divisions as may be appropriate)... as in this case.Alexikoua (talk) 13:16, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

You acted in a disruptive manner. The citations were perfectly fine, as other editors have pointed out here Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Specific_page_numbers_for_journal_articles_needed.3F. You could have asked for it in the talk page, yet you edit-warred in the article and gave me a frivolous warning in my talk page.[19]

I see you have no experience with journal articles. Yardumian et al. does talk about Ancient Anatolians throughout his article. That is why exact page numbers for journal articles are absurd, unless there is a quote, because sometimes you use information in multiple pages.

Still, as a courtesy, the quotes and page numbers are below. I also included where Yardumian et al. talks about "Anatolia’s Iron Age populations." Once again, your disruptive behaviour, accusations of source falsification, and etc are noted.

However, I should also thank you for your intransigence. I had completely forgotten about the section “Turks HLA profile reflects that of ancient Anatolians” in Arnaiz-Villena et al. It'll be an excellent source for my planned expansion of prehistory section.

Sources, quotes, page numbers

Yardumian, A.; Schurr, T. G. (2011). "Who Are the Anatolian Turks?". Anthropology & Archeology of Eurasia 50: 6. doi:10.2753/AAE1061-1959500101 Here we must mention that the incursion of Turkic peoples, and later of Turkish Muslims, was not the only wave of mass identity consolidation in Anatolia. Hellenization, between the first millennia b.c.e. and c.e., went a long way to initiating this demographic transformation. However, the scope of this paper cannot support a full discussion of this huge subject, except to say that without evidence for a large-scale eastward migration of Greek subjects from the Balkans, we are left to view this process as the gradual linguistic and cultural conversion of most of the remaining indigenous populations (e.g., Lydians, Carians), ergo the genetic continuity of Anatolia’s Iron Age populations into the Seljuk, Mamluk and Ottoman eras (see Vyronis 1986 for an extended theory of the Hellenization of Anatolia;see Langer and Blake 1932 for an opposing view, i.e., that Hellenization was superficial).(p. 18) “We may thus conclude that the profile of Anatolian populations today is the product not of mass westward migrations of Central Asians and Siberians, or of small-scale migrations into an emptied subcontinent, but instead of small-scale, irregular punctuated migration events that engendered large-scale shifts in language and culture among the diverse autochthonous inhabitants.” (p. 32) Rosser, Z.; Zerjal, T.; Hurles, M.; Adojaan, M.; Alavantic, D.; Amorim, A.; Amos, W.; Armenteros, M.; Arroyo, E.; Barbujani, G.; Beckman, G.; Beckman, L.; Bertranpetit, J.; Bosch, E.; Bradley, D. G.; Brede, G.; Cooper, G.; Côrte-Real, H. B.; De Knijff, P.; Decorte, R.; Dubrova, Y. E.; Evgrafov, O.; Gilissen, A.; Glisic, S.; Gölge, M.; Hill, E. W.; Jeziorowska, A.; Kalaydjieva, L.; Kayser, M.; Kivisild, T. (2000). "Y-Chromosomal Diversity in Europe is Clinal and Influenced Primarily by Geography, Rather than by Language". The American Journal of Human Genetics 67 (6): 1526–1543. doi:10.1086/316890. “However, this analysis does not take into account the fact that two non-IE languages, Hungarian and Turkish, have been acquired recently: the PC analysis and the relative absence of Y-chromosomal genetic barriers around these populations supports the idea that elite dominance was not accompanied by extensive genetic admixture.” (p. 1539) Cinnioglu, C.; King, R.; Kivisild, T.; Kalfoğlu, E.; Atasoy, S.; Cavalleri, G. L.; Lillie, A. S.; Roseman, C. C.; Lin, A. A.; Prince, K.; Oefner, P. J.; Shen, P.; Semino, O.; Cavalli-Sforza, L. L.; Underhill, P. A. (2004). "Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia". Human Genetics 114 (2): 127–148. doi:10.1007/s00439-003-1031-4. Under title “Minor genetic influence of Turkic speakers” “These new Y-chromosome data provide candidate haplogroups to differentiate lineages specific to the postulated source populations, thus overcoming potential artifacts caused by indistinguishable overlapping gene flows. The best candidates for estimations are Asian-specific haplogroups C-RPS4Y (Wells et al. 2001; Karafet et al. 2001; Zerjal et al. 2003) and O3-M122 (Su et al. 2000). These lineages occur at 1.5% in Turkey (8/523). Using Central Asian Y-chromosome data from either 13 populations and 149 samples (Underhill et al. 2000) or 49 populations and 1,935 samples (Wells et al. 2001) where these diagnostic lineages occur at 33% and 18%, respectively, their estimated contributions range from 0.0153/0.329 × 100=4.6% to 0.0153/0.180 × 100=8.5%. During the Bronze Age the population of Anatolia expanded, reaching an estimated level of 12 million during the late Roman Period (Russell 1958). Such a large pre-existing Anatolian population would have reduced the impact by the subsequent arrival of Turkic speaking Seljuk and Osmanlı groups from Central Asia. ” (p. 135) Arnaiz-Villena, A.; Karin, M.; Bendikuze, N.; Gomez-Casado, E.; Moscoso, J.; Silvera, C.; Oguz, F. S.; Sarper Diler, A.; De Pacho, A.; Allende, L.; Guillen, J.; Martinez Laso, J. (2001). "HLA alleles and haplotypes in the Turkish population: Relatedness to Kurds, Armenians and other Mediterraneans". Tissue Antigens 57 (4): 308–317. doi:10.1034/j.1399-0039.2001.057004308.x Under title “Turks HLA profile reflects that of ancient Anatolians” “Anatolian development was quite distinct to Egypt and Mesopotamia. By 5400 B.C., Hacilar culture flourished in the South-eastern Anatolian Lake District. Fortified citadels were common in central and western Anatolia and also in Mycenas (nowadays Greece) by 3000 B.C. Probably, local developments (and not invasions) led to the Hittite Empire flourishing in the central Anatolian part and to the Arzawa Kingdom at the Aegean coast (1400 B.C.); others put Hittite origins (as autochthonous) back to the 3rd millennium B.C. (34). Still more scholars identify Hittites with Indo-European invaders who spoke a different language (1400–1200 B.C.). The ‘‘Sea People’’ led to the fall of both Hittite and Arzawa cultures after 1200 B.C. Later, Neo-Hittites (in northern Syria), Assyrians and Arameans held power through different times and parts of Anatolia. By 800 B.C., a new Kingdom appeared: Urartu, in the Armenian mountains. Urartu rule was destroyed by Assyrians; also, Cimmerians from southern Russia broke through the Caucasus and descended on Urartu (714 B.C.), but were withheld by an Assyrian-Anatolian coalition. Medes (from Iran) and Babylonians invaded Anatolia in the 6th century B.C.; the former entered the Armenian mountains (northwards) while the latter confronted with central Anatolian people (Lydians). Peace followed and Persians led by Cyrus defeated the Medes and overran Anatolia bringing to an end the Neo-Hittite and other so-called pre-Indo-European speaking people rule (5th century B.C.) (34). Alexander the Great expelled the Persians from Anatolia (4th century B.C.) and after his death it was inherited by his general Selyuk. Romans and to a lesser degree Muslims took over Anatolia until the Turks, coming from central Asia (Altai mountains), invaded Anatolia in 1055 A.D. and finally took Istanbul in 1453 A.D. In spite of all these varied invasions, present day Turkish HLA profiles reflect an old Mediterranean substratum, not very different from Jewish or Lebanese (see Fig. 3, Table 3). It seems that the genetic input coming from the Altai mountains regions was comparatively low. Other genetic studies using classical allozyme markers also support that Anatolians belong to the older Mediterranean substratum (35). Our results cast doubts on the ‘‘out of Anatolia’’ origin for the Hittites and related people who are considered by some on a linguistic basis as Indo-Europeans immigrants. Most of the Anatolian invasions detailed above may have been accomplished by a so-called ‘‘elite’’ dominance process (36–38).” (p. 314) Wells, R. S.; Yuldasheva, N.; Ruzibakiev, R.; Underhill, P. A.; Evseeva, I.; Blue-Smith, J.; Jin, L.; Su, B.; Pitchappan, R.; Shanmugalakshmi, S.; Balakrishnan, K.; Read, M.; Pearson, N. M.; Zerjal, T.; Webster, M. T.; Zholoshvili, I.; Jamarjashvili, E.; Gambarov, S.; Nikbin, B.; Dostiev, A.; Aknazarov, O.; Zalloua, P.; Tsoy, I.; Kitaev, M.; Mirrakhimov, M.; Chariev, A.; Bodmer, W. F. (2001). "The Eurasian Heartland: A continental perspective on Y-chromosome diversity". Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 98 (18): 10244. doi:10.1073/pnas.171305098 “The Turkish and Azeri populations are atypical among Altaic speakers (Table 1) in having low frequencies of M130, M48, M45, and M17 haplotypes. Rather, these two Turkic-speaking groups seem to be closer to populations from the Middle East and Caucasus, characterized by high frequencies of M96- and/or M89-related haplotypes. This finding is consistent with a model in which the Turkic languages, originating in the Altai-Sayan region of Central Asia and northwestern Mongolia (31), were imposed on the Caucasian and Anatolian peoples with relatively little genetic admixture-another possible example of elite domince-driven linguistic replacement.” (p. 10248)

Cavann (talk) 23:17, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

It's good you are finally convinced after you've been clearly instructed by multiple users to give the necessary information. No wonder we have the same conclusions, since you are still on wp:or territory. Characteristically, the additional info you provided doesn't even mention the word "Thracian". On the other hand what the references state is that modern Turks are not clear ancestors of the Turkic tribes moved to Anatolia, but a mix between them and all the people that lived in the region from Antiquity to medieval ages. Thus, the lead and the correspodent parts should change respectivelyAlexikoua (talk) 16:12, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Yardumian et al. and Arnaiz-Villena et al. are clear. The lead is also clear, as it does not say Turks are purely Ancient Anatolian. Yardumian et al. also talks about "Anatolia’s Iron Age populations," (1200 BC – 500 BC) which would include Thracian immigrants like Phrygians, who had their capital in Gordium in the 8th century BC. Do not change the lead based on your lack of understanding of the text or issues.Cavann (talk) 17:13, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Thracian immigrants like Phrygians? Well, that's another wp:or concert here. For future reference Iron Age populations in Anatolia include also Cimmerians, Ancient Greeks, Phrygians (generally accepted as non-Thracians). Not only the so-called Anatolian linguistic group.Alexikoua (talk) 17:54, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Ancient Anatolians are not just Anatolian linguistic groups. Phrygians are Thracian.[20]. Any similarity to Greeks is covered by "but their ancestry includes neighboring peoples and Turkic peoples." Greeks are a neighboring people in case you have not noticed. However, Greek presence prior to iron age was limited, since Alexander's conquest was in 334 BC. And Yardumian et al. and Arnaiz-Villena say that Hellenization was also done through elite-dominance language replacement, so their genetic influence was limited too. So we cannot put Greeks to "various people including Ancient Anatolian civilizations and Thracian peoples have inhabited the area now called Turkey since prehistoric times.j[›][71][72][73] Modern Turkish people primarily descend from these indigenous groups" part.Cavann (talk) 18:25, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

The link you gave above says nothing about Phrygians being Thracians [[21]], it just states that Phrygians lost much of their ancestral roots, i.e. Phrygians are not Thracians.Alexikoua (talk) 19:24, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

In fact Phrygians might share some very distant roots with Thracians, same with Greeks [[22]].Alexikoua (talk) 19:33, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

The paragraph starting with "The Thracians migrated to..." is pretty clear. Again, if you are having English issues, ask someone for help. Cavann (talk) 19:42, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

...and this paragraph states that... they lost much of their ancestral roots, i.e. Phrygians are not Thracians. For future reference Thracians and Phrygians are different people (unless you still believe in Strabo or 17th century historical books). In case no serious objection is provided this part will soon go as wp:or.Alexikoua (talk) 20:58, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

LOL. What part of this do you not understand?

"The Thracians migrated to south-eastern Europe in the 7th millennium. After the 12th century, they also settled in Asia Minor, especially in Bithynia and the Troad, with the Brygi becoming ancestors of the Phrvgians. Although the Phrygians lost much of their ancestral roots, the Bithynians retained their Thracian culture."

Do you not understand that "they" refers to "the Thracians." Btw Bithynians were also in Anatolia.Cavann (talk) 21:07, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

... to the Thracians not the Phrygians, who lost much of their ancestral roots as you noted. Seems the one with poor knowledge of English is you. Feel free to go again to the wp:rs noticeboard, if you are not convinced in this talkpage as usual.Alexikoua (talk) 21:48, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Since no single argument is presented so far (apart from the extreme or point that Phrygians are Thracians), I see no reason why this part should remain.Alexikoua (talk) 20:37, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Arguments were presented and are clear. Failure or refusal to "get the point" is not a valid reason to change the text. Cavann (talk) 21:03, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

I think this argument is about a moot point. Whether Phrygians "are" Thracians is debated by researchers, but that debate isn't really relevant to this page. I find the sentence to be good. Phrygians, while they may or may not be "native" to the area, can be included in "Ancient Anatolian civilizations" by dint of the fact that they lived in Anatolia, while the rest of Turkey was inhabited by Thracians. We could also throw in Greeks I guess (in the case of Ionia, they'd been there for awhile). --Yalens (talk) 21:15, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Indeed, if we are to include every minor Anatolian people, we should also include Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians, and others, since they have been inhabiting Anatolia for millennia and have contributed to its genetic makeup. Athenean (talk) 04:29, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Assyrians is a stretch (they inhabited only the very southeast rim), but all of the peoples except Thracians can be grouped under "Ancient Anatolians". --Yalens (talk) 05:08, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Algerian Turks

sources refer to Algerians who may be of Turkish descent, not modern Turkish people living in Algeria (of which I would guess there are very few, not millions). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.155.15.132 (talk) 21:45, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Repetition for effect

Enough with the "genetic continuity" stuff. Inserting it in every section is getting old, and is nothing more than POV-pushing by repetition for effect. There is a genetics section for that, repeating it in the history section is WP:TENDENTIOUS editing at this point. The history section should be a history of the Turkish people, not a repeat of the history section Turkey. It appears some users have difficulty distinguishing between the two. Athenean (talk) 21:22, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Genetic stuff is for Genetic section. Prehistory section gives background (Hittites, etc). One sentence 'Various genetic studies suggested that these indigenous populations form the basis of modern Turkish population today,[76][68] with the "genetic continuity of Anatolia’s Iron Age populations into the Seljuk, Mamluk and Ottoman eras."[68]:18' is there to explain relevance. Indeed, enough with POV-pushing, and edit-warring.Cavann (talk) 21:26, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Yep, genetics stuff in genetics section, history stuff in history section. So no need for a genetics sentence in the history section. Athenean (talk) 21:28, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Exactly. That is why a paragraph about genetics is not in history section, only a sentence to explain relevance. Cavann (talk) 21:39, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

"To explain relevance". Whatever. You just want it repeated over and over for effect, just like you want it in the lede, even though no other ethnic group articles mention "descent" in the lede. Athenean (talk) 21:48, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Very well, your continuing edit-warring and POV-pushing leave me no choice but to ask for a GA reassessment. Stability and neutrality are key characteristics of a GA. The way the article was moreover promoted to GA without a single modificiation or reviewer comment was always suspicious. Athenean (talk) 21:41, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Excellent. Hopefully, we will see more neutral editors here. I have notified QatarStarsLeague that you filed this reassessment, levying serious accusations against him, calling his promotion "highly dubious." Cavann (talk) 23:06, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

I have also notified users Proudbolsahye and Antidiskriminator, who had earlier expressed similar concerns regarding the article's GA status. Athenean (talk) 02:57, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Arnaiz-Villena et al.

Athenean deleted this saying, "rm Antonio Arnaiz-Villena, unreliable source." [23] Antonio Arnaiz-Villena's work could have been criticized, but it is still a peer-reviewed journal article that has not been retracted. And it is not being cited here to support any of the relevant controversies (ie, it's not being cited to say something about Greeks). I made an entry in Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. Cavann (talk) 22:51, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

And now the verdict is in. Let's hope you will respect it. Athenean (talk) 02:32, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

So what's the reason?

This chunk of text was deleted ([[24]]) because "genetic makeup doesn't mean continuation of culture and ethnic identity from "ancient civilizations". That's true, and no one disputes that, neither does the text that was deleted. If this isn't why "the text is disputed", Proudbolsahye, what is? It's actually pretty standard to talk about history of an ethnic group's territory that occurred before the modern identity emerged. For example, our page on Mexican people talks about Toltecs and Olmecs and Aztecs, Spanish people mentions Roman and pre-Roman history, and so on. --Yalens (talk) 21:26, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Yalens, your argument and questions are discussed and investigated in above sections. There simply is no consensus reached on the issue and from the looks like it, I highly doubt there ever will. Proudbolsahye (talk) 21:39, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

There is nothing above that addresses Yalens' concerns. Only similar frivolous arguments that were used to delete reliably sourced relevant material. Athenian and Alexikoku also said Hitites had nothing to do with modern Turks, according to their POV. This is a straw man argument. This "read above" response seems part of Wikipedia:I just don't like it behaviour to circumvent WP:NPOV. Cavann (talk) 21:51, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

"See above" argument has nothing to do with IDONTLIKEIT. I merely pointed out to Yalens the ongoing debate about the frivolous claims that Turks are primarily descended from Ancient Anatolians and Thracians. The sources you use do not reflect this. Only one source, Yardumian, uses such terminology but is only cited ONCE. The other sources refer to Ancient Anatolians AMONG others as descendents of Turks. It is hard to even point out that modern academics have reached a consensus on the claims. You are taking a small portion of what the sources say and making highly controversial attempts of excluding these social factors. Due to your persistent WP:OWN behavior, the article is now going to lose its status as a GA and is now going to page protection. Very unfortunate. But like I said, I think a RFC would at least help this issue get solved. Proudbolsahye (talk) 22:02, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

When I look above, I mainly see (when I filter out all the tangents) people protesting at the page allegedly saying that Turks "are" Ancient Anatolians, even though (1) the text never says that they are exactly Ancient Anatolians or that they have cultural/ethnic-conscience continuity, (2) the page does already say that their ancestry also includes neighboring peoples and Central Asians, (3) regardless of what certain people think scientific sources actually DO say that Turks are mostly descended from the indigenous people of the region, which include Greeks and Armenians as well as the list of Ancient peoples. While certain editors may argue that the continuity with the Ancient populations is disrupted by the former two, scientific sources have explicitly stated that the latter ("Anatolia's Iron Age populations", etc) are also included. Forgive me if I missed anything, I also have a life and I don't tend to spend hours reading wikipedia talk pages, I hope you all can understand... --Yalens (talk) 22:07, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Anyhow, I'd recommend that the material be placed back in, but, as a compromise, "primarily" should be replaced with "in part". I hope we can all agree that at least that can be put on the page. --Yalens (talk) 22:07, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Also, why is "in addition, another study looking into HLA genes allele distributions indicated that Anatolians did not significantly differ from other Mediterranean populations" deleted? --Yalens (talk) 22:10, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Yalens, I agree. "In part" is what were trying to replace "primarily" here with. Proudbolsahye (talk) 22:13, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Arnaiz-Villena et al. also make the same claim, and it is cited 51 times; it's a source which was also removed through frivolous reasons. Yardumian et al. is a review article and contains numerous other sources that also make the same claims with respect to Paleolithic and Neolithic populations such as Comas et al 1998. Furthermore, your reverts are wholesale reverts such as deleting info about Hittites. Is anyone disputing Hittites lived in Anatolia? Again, you are giving straw man reasons to delete relevant material. First it was "no cultural continuity." Now you are saying 'frivolous claims that Turks are primarily descended from Ancient Anatolians and Thracians.' The deleted text says 'Various genetic studies suggested that these indigenous populations form the basis of modern Turkish population today.' Word "indigenous" is also used by sources such as Cavalli-Sforza. These nonsensical reasons to delete relevant material are indeed part of a Wikipedia:I just don't like it behaviour to circumvent WP:NPOV.Cavann (talk) 22:17, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

@Proud:That's great. But what about what was deleted though? It said a lot more than that. The only part of it that even refered to that is "various genetic studies suggested that these indigenous populations form the basis of modern Turkish population today", which is actually true (that they say this). If you have other sources, we can say "various genetic studies say they form the basis, while others dispute this", but the correct approach isn't simply deleting references to the what the studies say. And what about the other parts?--Yalens (talk) 22:19, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Yalens, I made a quick suggestion here which would improve the sentence in lead and be perfectly in line with all sources. [25]

However, the problem remains that very brief info about Hittites, other, etc are still being tried to eliminated from the page for some reason. Cavann (talk) 22:21, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree that the material about the Hittites should not be removed, as it is relevant, but I hope that maybe these things can be at least partly assuaged by compromising around by not asserting "primarily" as Wikipedia's opinion, but rather the opinion of "various genetic studies" (and if the page is going to assert something, saying "in part"). Despite the fact that the page doesn't actually say it, I think some users think the page is saying that Turks are Hittites, and this might mollify that somewhat... hopefully. --Yalens (talk) 22:27, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) You're taking one little edit-summary and trying to justify my entire argument through it. There's no general consensus reached about including Hittites as part of the early genetic makeup of Turks. The question remains as to terminology at this point. Arnaiz-Villena got fired from his job as an editor for the bold claims he had about genetics and you are still here trying to say hes reliable. Even WP:RS finds him controversial. Changing predominately to in part wont change the worlds image of what Turks ought to appear. Instead we can reach a consensus for once and end this discussion. Proudbolsahye (talk) 22:32, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Could you clearly state what the beef is, other than talking about "the consensus"? --Yalens (talk) 22:40, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Antonio Arnaiz-Villena did not get fired for "bold claims he had about genetics." Stop straw man arguments, and outright inaccuracies. Cavann (talk) 22:44, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

"in part" may not be supported by sources. For example, Cavalli-Sforza's book [26], which is an excellent secondary source source. The following text is already quoted in the article:

“ The Turks are also defined by the country of origin. Turkey, once Asia Minor or Anatolia, has a very long and complex history. It was one of the major regions of agricultural development in the early Neolithic and may have been the place of origin and spread of lndo-European languages at that time. The Turkish language was imposed on a predominantly lndo-European-speaking population (Greek being the official language of the Byzantine empire), and genetically there is very little difference between Turkey and the neighboring countries. The number of Turkish invaders was probably rather small and was genetically diluted by the large number of aborigines ”

So, I suggest, "Various people including Ancient Anatolian civilizations and Thracian peoples have inhabited the area now called Turkey since prehistoric times, which transitioned into Roman/Byzantine rule.j[›][71][72][73] Modern Turkish people primarily descend from these indigenous groups."

New part in bold. Now it would be perfectly in line with all sources, including the journal articles here [27]. Cavann (talk) 22:41, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I think the page should say "x-source says this" or "various sources say y" rather than "y is true". That's just my general philosophy for all pages with POV disputes, because it makes Wikipedia more of a distant observer to disputes. In my mind, "predominantly" implies "in part", but I"m not sure there'll be much point since as Proud says, the dispute isn't really about that... it's a bad compromise and isn't worth trying anymore. I wish they'd say what it is about. Perhaps they don't want to?--Yalens (talk) 22:45, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Yalens the dispute is something you have already highlighted. It is the terminology of the article which needs to be changed to properly reflect current academic consensus. Once that is done, the Hittite issue will be addressed according to the changes. If indeed the word "partial" is used, then a long mention of Hittites MAY be pointless. As of now, the initial argument is the correct the terminology, then we can go from there. Proudbolsahye (talk) 23:00, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Academic consensus is hard to measure, but we have a lot of sources here that note Turkish descent from indigenous populations. If you have other ones saying otherwise we can mention that too. Also, looking at the page, I don't see any "long mention" of the Hittites. It's pretty terse. --Yalens (talk) 23:03, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Also, I'd like if you'd specify what this "terminology" that should be corrected is. --Yalens (talk) 23:05, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

I've just fully protected this page for three days. Please discuss the matter instead of edit warring. Mark Arsten (talk) 00:14, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Proudbolsahye is making things up, similar to how he used frivolous straw man arguments when he was edit-warring. The sources are clear: [28] (5 of em here) and other ones like [29], [30] (book, p.243) Cavann (talk) 18:13, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

All sources say pre-Seljuk populations are the main contributors to present day population, therefore this is my suggestion:

“ Various people including Ancient Anatolian civilizations and Thracian peoples have inhabited the area now called Turkey since prehistoric times, which transitioned into Roman/Byzantine rule. Modern Turkish people primarily descend from these indigenous groups. ”

Proudbolsahye made this suggestion in Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard [31]

“ Modern Turkish people partly descend from Turkic peoples and indigenous groups of people including Ancient Anatolians and Thracians ”

That sorta equivalency is not in line with ANY of the sources. Eg, Hodoğlugil et al says only 9-15% is Central Asian [32] Cavann (talk) 18:39, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes while other sources say even more than that (see: here. So I think we are clear that as Wikipedia users we are in no way responsible of coming to our own scientific conclusions as to what Turkish most genes are by picking out sources we find responsible for our personal taste. That very same study you pointed out also says that most significant overlap of genes are not European nor Central Asian but Middle Eastern. As you may know, Turkey is made of different types of people and each have their own genetic history and makeup. Its really important that we distinguish this. Also, another proposal is to add the sentence I proposed but to later separate these claims under a case-by-case basis in the genetic history section. For example, "A study conducted in 2001 claims that....", that is of course if the source is reliable. But looks like WP:RS doesn't believe so. Proudbolsahye (talk) 19:53, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Well duh. Did you think Ancient Anatolians were majority European? You are aware Anatolia is not in Europe, right? The text says "Various people including Ancient Anatolian civilizations and Thracian peoples have inhabited the area..." and Hodoğlugil et al says at least 73%-85% of Turkish ancestry is European AND Middle Eastern.

And we are not coming to our conclusions, we are paraphrasing sources, such as Cavalli-Sforza and journal articles. Suggesting some sorta 50-50 equivalency, such as your proposed text, is falsifying sources, on the other hand. Cavann (talk) 20:04, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Hodoğlugil et al is 2012. What 2001 source are you talking about that "WP:RS doesn't believe so"? Cavann (talk) 20:06, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

I was giving an example about a 2001 source. I pointed out to you that other studies claim that a significant portion of Turkish genes derive from their central Asian ancestors. So here's what I propose..."Studies show, modern Turkish people partly descend from Turkic peoples and indigenous groups of people including Ancient Anatolians and Thracians" (unsourced)

In the genetics section we can outline what these studies are, if of course the studies are reliable and don't serve undue weight. Proudbolsahye (talk) 20:27, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Really, I've seen estimates in sources as low as 2-4% Central Asian contribution to Turks. And really, the Central Asian haplogroups Turks have aren't unique to the region (for example, Greeks have been shown to have C at 1% and Q has been found in Armenians and Levantines, Armenians have N, blablabla). I'm not saying that this is what the page should be saying (I don't think it should say that), but really. Even the high-end 30% estimate is still a minority of invader contribution. There really is a consensus I see that a lot of language replacement has happened here. As it should- a high population area invaded by a small group of nomads who impose themselves as rulers and try to spread their religion (and culture) is a recipe for elite-dominance language/culture replacement. This isn't my view or any other individuals' its what source after source I've read has been saying: Cinnioglu, Yardumian (even though he's Armenian, judging by the name? It's notable that even he says it, despite it going against the doctrine of his country's nationalism), Wells, etc...--Yalens (talk) 20:34, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Completely agree. The fact that Proudbolsahye is still suggesting a 50-50 equivalency, and emphasizing Turkic people by putting them at the beginning of that sentence, is so POV, it is actually laughable. When combined with edit warring and this users edit history, this seems like Wikipedia:Tendentious editing.Failure or refusal to "get the point" is wasting time. Cavann (talk) 21:08, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Noone here is suggesting a "50-50" resolve to this problem. Regardless of what constitutes the majority or minority of Turkish genetic makeup, we can all agree that thethese various genetic overlaps are all in part what constitute modern Turkish genes. some studies say 2% while others say 30%. So in order to further outline what these studies claim, it must be outlined in a case by case explanation of each (not all) studies regarding Turkish genes. Proudbolsahye (talk) 21:59, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Well, its good that we agree (though I would say a listing of every study is a bit in-depth). But what about the text that was deleted? I still haven't gotten a clear explanation about what was wrong about every part that was deleted.--Yalens (talk) 04:24, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

I think the key here is to avoid quantitative terms like "primarily" and "predominantly". The literature makes it clear that the genetic landscape of Anatolia is extraordinarily complex, hence it is impossible to determine who is "primarily" descended from whom. I would propose something along the lines of "Being a land bridge between Europe and Asia, Anatolia has been subject to numerous population movements throughout history. As a result, its genetic landscape is complex and varied. The modern Turkish population descends from indigenous Anatolian groups, neighboring peoples, and Turkic tribes from Central Asia". I would also propose that this info be in the "Genetics" section, and not repeated in the History section. Athenean (talk) 04:35, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

As far as the text that was deleted (I guess you mean the History section), I am ok with mentioning major Anatolian peoples like the Hittites, however, not minor Neolithic stuff like Hacilar. Also, we shouldn't repeat the whole "descent" thing in the History section. In the genetics section we can of course go into more depth and mention individual studies, I don't see anything wrong with that. Athenean (talk) 04:38, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Okay, then, with regard with to the deleted text, why don't we restore everything except Hacilar, like you said? That works for me. Can we request an end to the lock at least for this?--Yalens (talk) 05:06, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Well, not quite the whole text except Hacilar. Also not the genetics stuff: "Various genetic studies suggested that these indigenous populations form the basis of modern Turkish population today,[76][68] with the "genetic continuity of Anatolia’s Iron Age populations into the Seljuk, Mamluk and Ottoman eras.". Not only do I disagree with the sentence because it is too strongly worded, but also it has no place in the History section, this sort of thing belongs in the Genetics section. Otherwise ok. What say you about my proposal? Athenean (talk) 05:09, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Well that actually is what the sources say. If you want, we could change "various" to "some", as that's less assertive. I'm not sure I understand what the problem with them being in the history section too is- perhaps you could explain? If there is a good reason, I could support leaving that to the genetics section. --Yalens (talk) 05:20, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Because the sentence is clearly about genetics, so it should be in the genetics section. Otherwise we are repeating the same information over and over throughout the article. But the sentence is too strongly worded as well. The "basis" of the modern Turkish population is diverse: Turkic tribes and neighboring peoples (Kurds, Greek Muslims, Armenians, Caucasian peoples that migrated to Turkey in the 19th century) are also part of the "basis" of the Turkish population. See my proposal above. And besides the only source that explicitly supports such a strong wording is Yardumian, none of the others do. Athenean (talk) 05:26, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

"The modern Turkish population descends from indigenous Anatolian groups, neighboring peoples (Greeks, Armenians, others), and Turkic tribes from Central Asia" is not in line with sources as it gives a false equivalency between 3 components. Read WP:Verifiability. The literature makes it clear that the locals is the primary source. It's highly unlikely that you know the basis of the Turkish population better than Cavalli-Sforza or Yarmunian, etc. Cavann (talk) 05:39, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

The sentence is factually correct. The modern Turkish population is descended from all these groups, is it not? The literature does not "make it clear" that the "locals" are the primary source. The only source that does so is "Yardumian". By the way, Greeks, Armenians, Kurds, Assyrians and others are also "locals": They had been inhabiting Anatolia for thousands of years before the arrival of the Turkic tribes. Especially the Armenians and Assyrians, whose ancestral homeland is eastern and southeastern Anatolia, respectively. Your definition of "locals" is highly chauvinistic (only "Turks" are "local", everyone else is a "foreign"). Athenean (talk) 05:46, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Well, Greeks have some African too, everyone has at least 1+% something. Yet you do not give equivalency to these. In wiki terms, that would be WP:UNDUE. All humans also descend from Africans.

All sources quoted above (5 of em) and Cinnioglu and Cavalli-Sforza consider impact of Turkic speakers minor.

So, Besides Yardumian, few examples: Arnaiz-Villena (text above), Cavalli-Sforza ("The number of Turkish invaders was probably rather small and was genetically diluted by the large number of aborigines"), Cinnioglu ("The haplogroup-specific variances may reflect potential associations with Upper Paleolithic, Holocene and agriculturalist processes"...."Minor genetic influence of Turkic speakers"..."During the Bronze Age the population of Anatolia expanded, reaching an estimated level of 12 million during the late Roman Period (Russell 1958). Such a large pre-existing Anatolian population would have reduced the impact by the subsequent arrival of Turkic speaking Seljuk and Osmanlı groups from Central Asia."), etc.

No source says something like "The modern Turkish population descends from...neighboring peoples (Greeks, Armenians, others)". Adding "Greeks, Armenians, others" is WP:OR, and laughably POV, since you and Alexikoku are Greek, and Proud and Yarevanci are Armenian. Why not Adygean people? Those were the closest to Turks in Hodogglugil et al. This random list will not work.

So your suggestion is, as I said, not in line with sources. All sources say pre-Turkic populations are the main source. This should be clear. The rest is WP:OR, or simply made up. pre-Turkic populations mean: "Various people including Ancient Anatolian civilizations and Thracian peoples have inhabited the area now called Turkey since prehistoric times, which transitioned into Roman/Byzantine rule." Cavann (talk) 06:23, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Who ever said I was Armenian? Stop separating Wikipedia users off ethnic grounds. Consider this a warning. Proudbolsahye (talk) 06:30, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

We are not here to fill in the gaps and state that Turks descend from these indigenous ethnic groups. No one here denies this. But at the same time, no one here denies that fact that central Asians constitute the genetic overlap as well. History has proven this, let alone the science. Therefore, the proposal Athenean has placed forth makes the most sense. If you want to talk about all these studies case by case, it can all go in the genetic section. No problem with me and others here for that matter. Proudbolsahye (talk) 06:33, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

You are not filling any gaps. Cavalli-Sforza already said "aborigines" in his "History and geography of human genes" book, which is pretty much the best secondary source [33] Cavann (talk) 06:46, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, and case by case studies can be outlined in the genetics section along with the various representation of their claims. It really isn't harmful towards what you want to achieve with this article. Proudbolsahye (talk) 06:55, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that's already the case in genetics section. The lead should summarize tho. All sources say pre-turkic populations are the main source. Hence that is the summary. The sentences you or Athenian suggested are WP:OR or are simply not supported by sources. That cannot be a summary. That would be POV-pushing. Cavann (talk) 07:00, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

"Summary"? According to who? You? You are in no position to make such generalizations. That is up to the reader to decide, not the Wikipedia editor. Look...just because Athenean exemplified "neighboring peoples" as Armenian or Greeks or Kurds doesn't necessarily mean his proposition should be disregarded outright. Those are just examples used to direct users as to what "neighboring peoples" actually mean or who they are. Not all the sources say "primarily" and in fact most of them say "among others" as a way to describe genetic overlap. So in order for us to be clear of generalizations made on our behalf, its best to go with saying that Ancient Anatolians, neighboring peoples, Turkic tribes, and etc. are all part of the genetic code. The extent of the overlap shall be provided in the genetic section with conclusions to each study provided and explained thoroughly. I don't mind an expansion of the genetics section as well. Proudbolsahye (talk) 07:08, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Summary according to sources. You are in no position to make up sentences that are not supported by any source. No source gives equal weight to 3 components. Athenian or your suggestion, therefore, do not comply with Wikipedia:Verifiability. Cavann (talk) 17:00, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

This discussion seems to have cooled down a bit, so I will risk my neck and voice my opinion. For the lede, I suggest to strike out the word "primarily" and add the word "also" to make "Modern Turkish people primarily descend from these indigenous groups, but their ancestry also includes neighboring peoples and Turkic peoples." This still gives precedence to the continuity without stressing the point unduly. For the History section I suggest to leave it mostly as it is now, only possibly adding a few more details to underline the complexity of the population development in the area, but not adding "the genetic stuff" in that section. This can be used to expand the Genetics section, where much of it already is mentioned. Regards! --T*U (talk) 14:44, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Athenean's proposal (diff). It is neutral and does not give undue weight to some contradictory genetic studies. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:57, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

At the time when the Tirkic tribes settled in Anatolia it was simply part of the Byzantine empire, an area inhabited mostly by Byzantine Christians, i.e. Greeks, Armenians, Asssyrians, Kurds etc. I suggest this fact to be taken into account. The Turkic people turkified and islamicized most of them and later mingled with them. Yes, undoubtedly the local component constructed the overwhelming majority in this ethnogenetic scenario. Jingiby (talk) 15:01, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

I support TU's proposal as a great idea for a compromise that fairly represents all parts of Turkish ancestry.--Yalens (talk) 15:15, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

There is no compromise in TU-nor's proposal. Striking out "primarly" resolves nothing because the rest of the text continues with giving undue weight to some controversial genetics interpretations which imply the same thing. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:27, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

O.o "Primarily" and "predominantly" were previously among the main complaints. And you say they're controversial, yet I haven't seen a single academic source specifically criticize any of the studies with regards to their statements on Turks.--Yalens (talk) 15:31, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

• It is not constructive just to avoid terms "primarily" and "predominantly" leaving the rest of the text with exactly the same meaning.
• Diff.... gene studies of the past still can only produce implausible conclusions. "Critics of Cavalli-Sforza's work have increased in recent years, and critics of new gene studies of the past have always been active..." - Pamela Kyle Crossley (2008). What is Global History. Polity. p. 40. ISBN 978-0-7456-3301-5. Retrieved 2 September 2013..--Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:45, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Well, again, Antidiskriminator's input is irrelevant, as there are many more sources other than Cavalli Sforza. And it's so vague. Has anyone criticized conclusions of Cavalli Sforza about Turkish people? Cavann (talk) 17:08, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

TU-nor's proposal sounds fine. Cavann (talk) 17:22, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

No...Independent studies have their own independent conclusions. If we are here making conclusions by collecting these studies and drawing commentary from them, that will be OR on our part. No one here is giving equal credit to each and every variable involved in the genetic overlap of modern Turks. So in order for us to get passed the whole, "but it's is not supported by sources" dilemma, Atheneans proposal shall be considered but more importantly, left UNSOURCED. There is no harm in that. The specifications of each of the studies will be outlined in the genetics section. That simple. Like I said from the beginning, no one here is giving equal credit to each variable by using Atheneans proposal, the sentence does not come out that way anyways. It says in part but no one here is defining what that part actually is, until it is further outlined in the genetic section. Therefore, this should be explained through the case by case studies in the genetic section. Proudbolsahye (talk) 17:37, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

You have not showed one study that suggests pre-Turkic populations are not the main source. What independent studies? And you wanna leave the statement unsourced? LOL. Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought. Wikipedia is not a soapbox or means of promotion. Consider this a warning. Cavann (talk) 17:45, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

This study [34] for one, shows Turks clustering with Central Asian populations. I do not have time right now, but will look for more. Jingiby also makes a very important point. At the time of the Turkish conquest, anatolia was inhabited by Greeks, Armenians, Kurds, Assyrians, Laz, and others. This is hidden away, leading us to believe that the current Turkish population consists of Hittites that somehow "leapfrogged" all the population movements between Alexander's conquest and the Turkish conquest. As far as the lede, the only difference between my proposal and Tu-nor's is the "but also". My proposal gives more weight to the ancient Anatolians by placing mentioning them first, and the Turkic tribes last. I think that is fair. As far as the history section, I'm glad we all agree to keep the genetics stuff out of there. Athenean (talk) 18:10, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

If you look at my latest proposal, I do not mention specific peoples ("Greeks, Armenians", etc...), so as to avoid riling up Turkish nationalist sensitivities, who don't like that, even though many Turks are actually descended from Greek and Armenian converts to Islam. Athenean (talk) 18:12, 25 September 2013 (UTC)