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National selection events field in Infobox song contest country

I wanted to gauge opinion on the idea of removing the "National selection events" field from Template:Infobox song contest country in this forum first before going ahead and unilaterally making any changes. Originally this field I believe was envisaged to be used to include the names of notable NFs (e.g. Melodifestivalen), however it has now become in my opinion a very unyieldy field, with a mismash of information covering various national finals and internal selections which is largely based off of random fan sites and very little from reliable sources. In many cases little of this information is present in the actual body of the articles, creating an obvious WP:OR conflict and also contravening MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE. I don't believe we should be trying to summarise complex and changing information such as this in an infobox, and I believe any selection process information is better served by being included in the prose of the article, as has been successfully been achieved with several articles in the series (e.g. Andorra, Romania and San Marino). Sims2aholic8 (talk) 16:15, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree that this kind of information should be sourced and that including it in the infobox may (and does in many cases) result in very articulated text that should have no place there and would be better off in the article body. On the other hand, I believe it could still be useful to provide – alongside or instead of the prose – a summary table or a list for a more immediate glance at the selection methods. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 08:36, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree that it should be changed since it's not actually summarizing parts of the article properly and is typically unsourced. I think including links to events like Melodifestivalen are helpful for the infobox, but perhaps could be presented in a different way. Grk1011 (talk) 01:12, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

I've conducted a test case on Sweden in the Eurovision Song Contest; I've added a new "Related articles" section (heading name TBC) so that we can include any links to notable national selection events within the infobox, and removed the original "National selection events" field. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 08:31, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

"Other countries"

I find it kind of confusing as to why broadcasts that are directly linked to the contest, aswell as the album, stand below the section about countries that had nothing to do with the contest in any given year. I think the other countries section should be moved all the way down, below the album, as the least relevant info of any given year. it's certainly less relevant than countries that actually broadcast the event ImStevan (talk) 20:53, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree with you that the current placing of this section is a little odd. I actually believe there is a slight WP:UNDUE issue with how this section is presently as well, as I think too much emphasis is given to countries that didn't take part. We have done our best to neuter this section in the past, but I think we can go further. I also believe, given the creation of the new "Participating countries" section that if we are to include an "Other countries" section, it should be as part of this. I've done some changes to the 2023 contest article (see here) which moved the other countries to within the participants, and moves everything to prose, rather than the current bullet list format. In this way the high level points around why a country does not participate are covered, but we don't give undue weight to non-participants by giving it a completely separate section. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 08:53, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

I like it ImStevan (talk) 12:47, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

I like this change a lot. Having this information as prose instead of a bulleted list really aids in making the article feel more encyclopedia-like. Wikipedia isn't really supposed to be a quick-reference guide and I think we fall into that trap sometimes. I did move the "Eligibility..." paragraph up since it actually does a great job at introducing participation in general. I'd suggest giving this change at least a month before rolling it out to other articles. That way people still have time to raise any concerns. Grk1011 (talk) 15:25, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

I like it too. I moved the section at Eurovision Song Contest 2024 but for the moment I left the bulleted list since in this case we are still talking about potential participants. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 15:36, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree that for now we should keep the bullet list given the information presented at present is more complex. Once the official participants list is published we can then move to a prose-only format when there are fewer countries and can remove any duplicated overlap in terms of reasoning behind non-participation. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 17:10, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

I have officially moved and reduced the section in all the articles where it was present. I also added the {{further}} note linking to List of countries in the Eurovision Song Contest where it was missing. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 11:20, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Dolph Lundgren

Dolph Lundgren has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Onegreatjoke (talk) 21:02, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:Content assessment

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Content assessment#Proposal: Reclassification of Current & Future-Classes as time parameter, which is within the scope of this WikiProject. This WikiProject received this message because it currently uses "Current" and/or "Future" class(es). There is a proposal to split these two article "classes" into a new parameter "time", in order to standardise article-rating across Wikipedia (per RfC), while also allowing simultaneous usage of quality criteria and time for interest projects. Thanks! —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 21:53, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Draft:Junior Eurovision Song Contest 2023, and mainspace

We're approaching JESC season and this article is still stuck in draftspace after getting draftified (by members of this project) and then declined. Appeals to the initial reviewer have been rejected, and I've appealed on the AfC Help Desk but I'm not sure that's going anywhere. Frankly, I don't understand the promotional/source concerns, and that's coming from someone who mostly does anti-promo/anti-spam work.

Are there any AfC reviewers in the project here, or does anyone have any ideas on what to do here? Blue Edits (talk) 08:44, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

The issue is that normally someone (like myself) could move it out of draft-space, but an admin has locked the destination page due to the constant move issues last year (Junior_Eurovision_Song_Contest_2023 <- if you click on it, you can see the creation history). I too find this to be a very bizarre application of the rules since it's an established event, has over 70 references to reliable sources, and is way past the typical creation date of prior year's contests. Grk1011 (talk) 13:11, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

We'll simply ask. @Theroadislong:, why has the article not been moved into the main space? ImStevan (talk) 18:31, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

I started a deletion review, because I agree that it is taking far too long. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 10:45, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

@Jochem van Hees: thanks for getting this done! Grk1011 (talk) 13:17, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

A table to help with country-by-year article creation and maintenance

As the title implies, I've made a table (link) consisting of all country-by-year articles because I think this can be useful for creation and maintenance of said articles. The intent is to help people find redirects to turn into full-fledged articles using the table, as there are currently 304 redirects and 35 nonexistent articles (all of those 35 are from 2024, and will likely be made over the coming months as national finals roll in). Hopefully this will be a useful tool, if there's anything you think should be added, please let me know either here or at my talk page here. :) Actually_NeverHappened02 (a place to chalk | a list of stuff i've done) 00:24, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Entries

Since we now have subtext under the participants section that states that the information is provisional, can we add the entries parameter back before the official announcement? ImStevan (talk) 13:12, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

I tried to do this at ESC 2024 but it was undone on the grounds that it needs constant attention for updates. I didn’t bother reverting or opening a discussion since it makes little difference to me, but considering the clear “provisional” header I believe we could leave the confirmed number of entries. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 15:56, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Project objectives

Hi all- I've been thinking about our WikiProject main page and the objectives don't make much sense anymore given the way we've evolved as a WikiProject and encyclopedia. I made the objectives pages about 15 years ago at this point and I think we should have something there, but not in that format or order. For example, our goals are no longer to basically create stubs articles for everything, nor should adding references be 5th in the order. Objective 7 (WP banners and categorizing) has basically been complete for several years now. What should the page be? Any ideas? Grk1011 (talk) 13:59, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

If we have any new objectives we can replace those. I also find the overall layout a bit confusing: there are two columns but both columns are just filled indiscriminately with stuff; "topics covered" is huge and mostly filled with things that we don't spend a lot of time on like Magic Circus Show. Also, maybe quick links could be closer to the top and some of the categories could be collapsible? Blue Edits (talk) 06:31, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

News Desk

Thanks for inviting me! I'm currently a news writer and I do some Eurovision news writing on the side. I noticed that the news desk seems to be innactive since 2020. Would it be possible for me to be able to get that back up and running? Ktkvtsh 23:56, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Does anyone run the news desk currently?

I would be interested in helping out with the news desk. Is there someone with more information? T. S. Holdiness 11:10, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Hi, welcome! I don't believe so. Grk1011 (talk) 13:15, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

I would love the opportunity to get it going again! T. S. Holdiness 13:23, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Hey, welcome to the project! If you'd like to take this on then please feel free to give it a go! Sims2aholic8 (talk) 15:45, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Awesome!!!! Will do! T. S. Holdiness 15:57, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Newsdesk overhaul

WikiProject Eurovision Important Announcement Dear Valued Project Member I hope this announcement finds you well. I am User:Ktkvtsh and am the new Editor in Chief of the Newsdesk. Regretably, the former news team became inactive due to the COVID-19 Pandemic. Newsletters have not been sent out for three years. Now that is going to change. The Newsdesk has recieved a complete overhaul and is now full of information, news. Hopefully you find it to be user friendly as well. I am open to any suggestions you may have, which you can share here. I am looking forward to furthering everyone and my own knowledge of the Eurovision Song Contest. Cordially, T. S. Holdiness 09:44, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Broadcasting in the 20th century

Can the broadcasts be used as sources in these cases? If there were other sources I'd assume we would've found them by now 1989 1990 ImStevan (talk) 12:53, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

You can cite to the broadcast if it's obvious to the average viewer. Things like results shown on screen or announcements made are typically ok. More subjective things like describing what you see sometimes gets close to the line of WP:OR. If you do include a courtesy link (for example the ones you linked above), make sure that the videos were legally posted to Youtube, etc. by an entity that has the rights to do that. The proper template to use is {{Cite AV media}}. Grk1011 (talk) 12:59, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

The ones I used lead to the internet archive ImStevan (talk) 13:26, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Sources

It has been 6 years since most sources on the sources page have been reviewed. Perhaps it's time to add new ones, and do a review of the existing ones?

For one, I would move Wiwibloggs into reliable, add OGAE clubs as reliable sources and especially add Eurovoix (probably the most reliable secondary source I've encountered) as reliable sources and add broadcasters' sites as reliable sources ImStevan (talk) 14:46, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Good thinking. Thanks for being proactive and bringing this up. T. S. Holdiness 14:58, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Taskforce

Has the topic of creating taskforces come up yet? Ktkvtsh (talk) 07:08, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

We have talked in the past about the wikiproject being something different, like WikiProject EBU or WikiProject Song Contests with a Eurovision task force for example. None of them really gained traction since any option ended up both expanding and reducing the scope of the project and removing some overlap that most editors like. The reality is that there are really only 5 or so 'everyday' editors so we've just been having discussions on the talk page as necessary. Did you have a task force scope in mind? What type of articles do you enjoy editing/improving? Grk1011 (talk) 12:43, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Mostly, I like working with citations/sources and photos.I also enjoy the design aspect. I love to write as well news. Ktkvtsh (talk) 21:49, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Yeah those brief discussions we had didn't exactly go anywhere, but I do think a rethink about the overall scope/name of the project is needed. Especially since the project's remit has now expanded to include other song contests not actually run by the EBU, I'm not sure "WikiProject Eurovision" is really a suitable title for this WikiProject anymore. Additionally, given the large majority of editors are focussed solely on the song contest aspects of this project's remit, I have grown a bit confused by the inclusion of broadcasters and networks within the Eurovision network as part of this project's scope. Of course the participating broadcasters are an important aspect of the EBU contests (as well as the ABU contests and American Song Contest), but looking at Wikipedia:WikiProject Eurovision/Popular pages some of the broadcaster articles which get a lot of views (which are tagged with our banner because of their links to the EBU) I don't believe are actually relevant to this project. I'm conscious I don't want to be creating a lot of work for anyone, but conversations about our remit and what we want to achieve as a group are overdue. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 09:41, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Couldn't agree more. I'd also like to include that the design of the project has become outdated. We are in need of a complete revamp.

Is there a way for the editors who are consistently working here to get together in a talk page somewhere and figure out something definitive? I will work on a list of changes we could go ahead and do right away while we work on a big picture change.

I think the most obvious path is to become the WikiProject Song Contests and be the hub for all song contests. That way every contest around the globe will have uniform Wikipedia pages and most likely we will have a larger group of active members. Then we could do task forces for the major contests that have editions in different countries (like the Voice and Idol) and so on.

The collection of templates and user skills here could be used to benefit a huge chunk of Wikipedia. Ktkvtsh (talk) 09:57, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Maybe it would make sense to split the project into a project Eurovision and a separate project (Other) Song Contests. I myself contribute largely only to ESC-related articles and don't care much about other song or dance contests, and I still feel it would be helpful to have a project with only Eurovision as its scope. But I'm open for interesting suggestions. EurovisionLibrarian (talk) 18:37, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

I believe this is where task forces would make a lot of sense. In this regard there would be a wider group which covers all song contests, but individual editors which are only interested in certain contests can then align themselves with specific task forces. That way there can be a centralised guidance available on formatting, sourcing etc. but also allowing individual task force members to work on the articles that appeal to them. If we were to split the projects we would then run the risk I believe of too much divergence occuring between the different contests in terms of their content. Templates as well are a shared resource for all contests, so again another reason to continue to have a single project with the addition of task forces. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 09:20, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Newsletter

Could someone help me with copy editing the newsletter and sending it out? Ktkvtsh (talk) 14:31, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

I can help out here. If you could link me to the newsletter that would be great. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 09:12, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Here is where I've been working It is stored in the archive tab. Ktkvtsh (talk) 10:11, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

How do I send it out to the mailing list? Ktkvtsh (talk) 23:45, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Taking a look at Template:Mailing list member you will need to become a mass message sender. It may make sense for a few very active WikiProject members to request massmessage user rights. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 09:03, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Good idea. I sent a request but got no response. Could you post a new request? Ktkvtsh (talk) 09:23, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Newsletter Issue 49: Haven't been able to send this out. So will post here for everyone.

→ Issue 49 ← Headlines Loreen won the 2023 Eurovision Song Contest in Liverpool. Eurovision Choir canceled indefinitely. Junior Eurovision 2023 to be in Nice, France.
At the time of publication the project statistics were as follows
Number of articles	Unassessed articles	Good articles	A-class articles	Featured articles	Number of members
7263	0	171	0	4	105
• HOME • TALK • NEWSDESK • UNSUBSCRIBE • ARCHIVES • • Published by the Eurovision WikiProject •

Ktkvtsh (talk) 08:14, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

It's good to see you have been able to send this out to all WikiProject members now! Just an FYI, A-class has now been made redundant for WikiProject Eurovision articles (see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Eurovision/Archive 26#A-class assessments), so for future editions the template should be modified to remove this. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 07:45, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes very glad. Okay good to know. Thank you! Ktkvtsh (talk) 07:47, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Discussion on ProveIt automated edits

I would like everyones input on the use of ProveIt automated edits to normalize refereneces. Recently I have been working on normalizing all WP ESC articles to help them to be uniform. @IceWelder disagrees, saying "Not all Eurovision-related articles are edited by the same people. If they have established formats, there is no need (or even incentive) to change them." You can see our original discussion here Ktkvtsh (talk) 23:12, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Public domain images of the 1964 Eurovision Song Contest

Last year I stumbled upon these images from 1964. [1]

I believe these are public domain images, as they were made in Denmark before 1970. I don't have the time or tools to upload them to Wikimedia Commons. Any volunteers? Clausule (talk) 08:23, 22 August 2023 (UTC)