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Xx (album)

Nominator(s): Dan56 (talk) 16:33, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the debut album by English indie pop band the xx. It exceeded expectations in the media and was a sleeper hit in both the United Kingdom and the United States. The album also received widespread acclaim from critics and won the Mercury Prize in 2010. I believe it meets all the FA criteria and, IMHO, this might be the best article I've written. Dan56 (talk) 16:33, 29 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Tezero

Can't say I've listened much to this band, though I've definitely seen this (rather distinctive) cover around; I guess I assumed they were a Strokes/Arctic Monkeys/Spoon-style garage rock outfit. And it's seriously unfortunate that this nomination's most of the way down the newer Nominations category with no feedback, so I'll be giving my review in short order. Tezero (talk) 06:09, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Change "alternative" to "alternative rock" to disambiguate from alternative R&B.

Done. Dan56 (talk) 05:00, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Why is dream pop listed in the infobox but not the lead? (I actually think it sounds more space rock than dream pop, personally, but that isn't stated.)

"Dream pop" is verified by one source mentioned in #Music and lyrics; IMO, it would be undue weight if we include Sarah Boden's classification of the music as dream pop in the lead. Dan56 (talk) 05:00, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Then can "electronic rock" or something go in the infobox, too? It just seems kind of asymmetric, that's all. Tezero (talk) 05:08, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

How so, "asymmetric"? I don't think that particular genre could be verified anyway. Do you mean for appearance sake? Dan56 (talk) 05:34, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No, I mean it looks odd for the genres listed in the lead to overlap so little with those in the infobox, that's all. Tezero (talk) 05:38, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"The band's Jamie Smith" - the frontman? What instrument does he play?

He produces beats for the band and plays the sampler, drums, laptop, MPC, etc. He's not a traditional/conventional band member, so I don't think there's a proper term for his role. His role as producer did not become established until they started recording this album. Dan56 (talk) 05:00, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"and received widespread acclaim from critics" - Can you get a little more into detail about what critics did and didn't like?

IMO, it'd seem obvious to readers--the music and lyrics that are discussed in the lead's second paragraph--partly because "widespread acclaim" is a fairly strong phrase to suggest there were very few things they didn't like, and at least nothing they disliked collectively. Dan56 (talk) 05:00, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Not a requirement by any stretch, but British English tradition is to omit the Oxford comma.
"The band also covered" - why "also"? You haven't introduced what else they played.

Removed. Dan56 (talk) 05:00, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comparisons and references to R&B are all over the place; I'd think it ideal to list "R&B" or some derivative in the genre field of the infobox.

#Music and lyrics only mentions "R&B" as an influence or element which the music draws on. The closest derivative I could think of is PBR&B, but there aren't any source for that and this album. Dan56 (talk) 05:00, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"The songs on xx are built around a framework of basslines and beats, and incorporate austere guitar riffs for melody, rhythm, and texture" - should be "and they incorporate"

Done. Dan56 (talk) 05:00, 11 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Will be back with more. Tezero (talk) 23:02, 10 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"bookmakers and critics considered the xx as favorites" - I can tell what this means, but the wording is a little unclear as to whether they just liked the xx or predicted they would be award-winners. Maybe add "possible" before "favorites" or swap "considered" for "predicted"?

This kind of wording has been used in other print sources ([1]), and the context is established by the preceding sentence and the bit that follows, "...and predicted they would win over..." Dan56 (talk) 01:37, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Also might want to link "bookmaker". I had to look it up.

Done. Dan56 (talk) 01:37, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The first two paragraphs of Reception are very unbalanced - is there any way they could be evened out a bit?

Well that's sort of the point, to be neutral in form. More weight is given to the positive reviews and much less to the criticism, based on the reviews aggregated at Metacritic (and also Any Decent Music? for another reference). To be honest, if I were to be more stringent about the proportion of positive to negative, the second paragraph would be even smaller, since the positives were nearly universal, but that one short second paragraph should guarantee neutrality. Dan56 (talk) 01:37, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That's not what I mean. Is there a way to organize them any way other than positive vs. negative? It's okay if the answer's genuinely no, but I'm just not big on the layout as of now. Tezero (talk) 03:30, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ook, but I don't think there is honestly. IMO, this is the best way for the content in that section. Dan56 (talk) 03:51, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"said was "quit a feat"" - mistake in original? If not, use [sic].
"English band Florence and the Machine" - "fellow English band", maybe? (I actually thought they were American.)

Corrected "quite" misspelling and added "fellow". Dan56 (talk) 01:37, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Tezero (talk) 00:52, 12 September 2014 (UTC) Tezero (talk) 00:52, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support; this is a well-written article that, assuming an appropriate source and image review are provided, I have no problems with making it to FA status. Tezero (talk) 06:54, 12 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from MusikAnimal

Seems to reasonably conform to MOS:ALBUM. I have not completely read through the article (yet), but here are some issues I've noticed thus far. — MusikAnimal ^talk 23:04, 21 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Recording and production, last paragraph, I wanted it to sound like... Even though the citation at the end of the paragraph verifies this, I'd still duplicate the inline citation at the end of the quote. You have to be very strict about verifiability when it comes to quotations.

In a past FAC, where I followed each direct quotation with a citation, this was brought up by a reviewer as an example of citation overkill (WP:FAC/Marquee Moon#Comments from XXSNUGGUMSXX). Is this something open to interpretation by each reviewer? "If one source alone supports consecutive sentences in the same paragraph, one citation of it at the end of the final sentence is sufficient." (WP:CITEOVERKILL) Dan56 (talk) 04:39, 22 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Dan56: It is absolutely open to interpretation. WP:CITEKILL is merely an essay, not even a guideline. WP:MINREF reflects policy. I completely disagree that having a citation next to a direct quotation from a living person could be considered overkill, you're merely staying within the safe zone of WP:BLP and WP:V policy by doing so. As a reader, if I see a direct quotation, perhaps contentious, I shouldn't have to look for the citation. Having two or more citations whose sources support the same quote could of course be considered overkill. I leave it up to you on whether to duplicate the citation, but certainly don't mistake essays something concrete. — MusikAnimal ^talk 19:37, 24 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Promotion, last sentence, "putting our music on everything, just to put it to anything just for the sake of money". Per MOS:LQ the period should go before closing double-quotes, generally matching the placement in the direct quote. Obviously a very minor detail.

MOS:LQ mentions how with a "[sentence] fragment, terminal punctuation should be placed outside." So that quote is not a full sentence. If I'm mistaken though, I'll fix it. Dan56 (talk) 04:39, 22 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Reference #29 "Rodgers 2010" does not appear to link anywhere. There's also visible cite error in the References section, "A list-defined reference with group name "lower-alpha" is not used in the content".

That's my mistake; there shouldn't be a "d" in "Rogers" lol. I'm not seeing anything about the visible cite error though. Dan56 (talk) 04:39, 22 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I noticed in the main The xx article "the" in artist's name is always capitalized ("The xx" not "the xx"), while Coexist (album) and others seem to be inconsistent. Not a huge issue, and perhaps intentionally used interchangeably, but I thought I'd point it out.

@MusikAnimal:, I think most of the sources I used in this article don't have "the" capitalized, so I followed that. As long as it's consistent in this article, it's fine. Although looking at FAs like The Beatles, "the" shouldn't be capitalized in The xx, so I've corrected it there. Dan56 (talk) 04:39, 22 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've cited those direct quotes, @MusikAnimal:. Are there any other (possible) issues to resolve? Dan56 (talk) 17:16, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Spike Wilbury

Object to promotion to FA status, based on the following concerns:

Criterion 1a (prose). I think the writing needs to be improved for clarity, jargon, and cohesive grammar. It should be copy-edited.
In particular, the Music and lyrics section has some phrasing that indicates a possible misunderstanding of musical terminology, which is something I see a lot in song and album articles. For example, "The songs' melodies are spaced out with rests." Well, that's a weird and redundant statement, as "spaces" in music are rests, plus it's not in the cited source. Another example, "its loudest recording"; I'm unclear what this means? Do you know what loudness means in terms of music recording? It's sourced to Rizov 2010 which isn't in your list of sources.

@Spike Wilbury:, "Negative space" is cited (Cole 2009) and is interchangeable with "rest" (Ma_(negative_space)#Word → John H. Haig, The New Nelson Japanese-English Character Dictionary, Tuttle, 1997, p. 1132). Perhaps instead of "spaced out", it would be less redundant if I wrote "...are separated by rests" instead? Rizov is in the list of sources, the last name had just been misspelt ([2]). If you're complaint above was about jargon (something a particular group would understand or use), then I think readers would understand "loudest" in the way most people understand it, not "in terms of music recording". Dan56 (talk) 16:09, 24 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I definitely understand what you're trying to say, I'm just saying it doesn't make sense from a musical terminology standpoint. Their use of negative space is great to talk about, but saying melodies are spaced out with rests just sounds like you're misunderstanding the musical aspects of the album. Thanks for correcting the Rizov citation. I make prodigious use of CTRL-F rather than visually scanning. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 17:44, 24 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I really get an awkward feel from reading the entirety of the article. I feel like you're using strange techniques to paraphrase what you're reading in the sources and not taking the time to really absorb and understand what you're reading to convey it to the reader in a cohesive way.

Idk how to respond to that, it sounds like an open-ended objection. Dan56 (talk) 16:09, 24 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's a systemic problem with the writing in the article. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 17:44, 24 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You mean beyond the objections regarding the music terminology (mis)use in #Music and lyrics? If so, where specifically? Dan56 (talk) 18:08, 24 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As I said, it pervades the writing. May I ask what strategy you typically employ when you're paraphrasing sources? --Spike Wilbury (talk) 11:54, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

And as I asked, where? I paraphrased the same way as in my previous FAs, so I'd appreciate if you told me what's giving you this impression. If you're going to base your objection on this, then it's only fair to elaborate on it. Otherwise, I don't feel these are "actionable objections" that I can resolve. Dan56 (talk) 17:09, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Can you answer my question? I'm not unfamiliar with composition, technical writing, and scholarly research. Your writing reads as if you have a source open in one window and are writing statements into the article while looking at it, trying to change around words and phrases so you're not plagiarizing. Would this be accurate? The writing being of less-than-ideal quality is most certainly an actionable objection; you can act on it by having someone copy-edit the article. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 19:59, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I read a source and paraphrased it. Tezero didn't share your opinion of the quality of writing, although he was still kind enough to review and point things out more thoroughly so I could resolve and discuss specific things in the article. I wont ask someone to copy edit an article because it doesn't suit one reviewer's intuition and I don't feel it's fair to oppose simply because the prose isn't to your liking. Dan56 (talk) 20:28, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I feel this is becoming too heated; why not put this up at WP:GOCE/REQ? The article Sleeping Dogs (video game) received a couple of prose-related oppose votes, so the primary nominator did this with a message that the request was urgent as it belonged to a current FAC, and someone picked it up right away and is now hammering away. It's also worth noting that I don't care about everything being worded completely perfectly for FAs as long as it's comphrehensible, unambiguous, and reasonably well-flowing, criteria I feel this article fulfills. Even then, though, it's possible for me to miss things, as with any reviewer on any criterion. Tezero (talk) 20:34, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That FAC involved reviewers bringing up numerous issues/examples that could be resolved. Dan56 (talk) 20:50, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and this one doesn't, making it an especially good choice because the objectors have provided no concrete input themselves on what needs to change. Tezero (talk) 06:11, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

After seeing they've supported this FAC for an article with noticeably worse prose (as I detailed below), I'm beginning to discount their vague complaint about the prose here. Dan56 (talk) 06:16, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Criterion 2 (style). The linking is strange. You have Jamie Smith linked in the lead and again in the body, but the rest of the band members are not linked in the lead or even when they are mentioned in the Background section.

Perhaps because he's the only member with an article? Dan56 (talk) 16:09, 24 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Criterion 2a (lead). I feel that you have chosen some strange details to include in the lead that don't seem all that important. Smith using his laptop, or reverb being employed in the guitar parts. Reverb is employed on pretty much every recording ever made, so it's hardly worth mentioning in the lead.--Spike Wilbury (talk) 15:41, 24 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Based on my research of this album specifically, many of the sources take note of the reverb in their music, as McDonald--the audio engineer--mentioned ([3]) Due weight is based on the sources, not what I personally felt is important, although I don't see how it's unimportant when Smith--the producer--basically did everything on his laptop, which is also noted in many of the sources. Dan56 (talk) 16:09, 24 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In that case, you should explain why the use of reverb is notable. It's like saying sound effects were used in a film without explaining what in particular was notable about their use. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 17:44, 24 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think "reverb in her lead guitar parts" is more specific than "sound effects used in a film" and not as obvious as you're making it out to be. And since that sentence mentions both Qureshi and Croft as the guitarists, it serves another function--distinguishing her as the lead guitarist along with her sound incorporating reverb. Mentioning it as an aside with the way it's worded should suffice without going off-topic and into any further detail about it, which is mentioned twice in the body where it goes into further detail. Dan56 (talk) 18:08, 24 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I don't agree. "Employed reverb in her lead guitar parts" without any other detail as to why that's notable enough to be mentioned in the lead sounds really banal to anyone who knows anything about musicianship. Again, I feel that you have read sources and paraphrased them to construct this article without really understanding what they're saying as a cohesive set of information. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 11:54, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm getting the impression your not basing this objection on anything concrete and maybe instead your own criteria based on personal knowledge of "musicianship" or music. So far your objections have only been about musicianship/terminology-specific info in Music and lyrics and the lead. Per MOS:INTRO, "greater detail is saved for the body", and things should be placed in "a context familiar to a normal reader." I don't agree that mentioning it as an aside following a more elaborate description of "Its melancholic songs..." is banal for the common reader. Dan56 (talk) 17:09, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, is that a problem? I would think you would want feedback from someone familiar with the subject matter you're writing about. If you wrote a physics article would you object to a physicist coming in and giving you some opinions about the writing? You're exceptionally standoffish and I'm frankly not sure why you are putting something up for review when you're not actually interested in criticism. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 19:59, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It kind of is. Sentences with technical terms about music like "rests", "reverb", and "loudness" are miniscule bits in a much larger article, which I don't feel you've reviewed thoroughly enough to oppose or support. I'm just getting the impression some of the prose about the album's music didn't mesh with your personal taste, so you used objections like linking style (I don't think Criterion 2 warrants linking items with no articles) and two details in the lead (including the producer using his laptop to produce the album) to give substance to objecting to the article altogether. I'm willing to embrace criticism that's actionable, as in the previous two reviewer's comments, which I addressed accordingly because specific items from top to bottom were discussed. The first reviewer gave the impression that they went through all or most of the prose with what they raised, and the second reviewer at least admitted they hadn't gone through it completely yet and could not decide to support or oppose. Dan56 (talk) 20:28, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That's fine. I certainly am stating my opinion just like everyone else who comments, and you are certainly free to disagree with my opinions. However, I don't think the article is written very well, and I won't be removing my objection until that changes. If my objection is seen to be invalid by the decision-makers, I won't take it personally. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 20:48, 25 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

After seeing that you've supported the FAC for ...And Justice for All (album), I don't see how you can criticize the prose in this article. If any article needs to be copy-edited, it's that one--there are present participles throughout the article, including its "Music" section, pronouns from the previous paragraph arent repeated at the start of a new one like it's correct to (including the third paragraph of the "Music" section), awkward phrases like "...has a lyrical material featuring a...", missing commas after full mdy dates per MOS:DATE, and unexceptional/not uniform citation formatting. I really don't feel you've given a thorough review, either of this article or that one, especially of the prose. Either that, or you're applying some dubious double-standard to this article, or I'm beginning to question your understanding of correct prose. Dan56 (talk) 06:05, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think you're missing the point. As indopug alluded to below my review, the you don't seem to actually understand the album or the sources you've read. You've repeated attacked me for what I've chosen to point out, but I've stated a few times now that I stand by my comments and my objection. Comparing your article to others might be a useful exercise to improve your own article, but comparing my review of your article to others in order to marginalize my opinion is not so much of a useful exercise. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 11:15, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see how he alluded to that. And I don't see how I could improve my article by comparing it to the flawed prose of the one you supported. I brought up legitimate, specific issues. It's your choice to overlook them as a reviewer there, but seeing how you supported it reaffirms my belief that you did not do your due diligence as a reviewer here. Dan56 (talk) 12:06, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment This article cannot be considered comprehensive unless this long New Yorker piece is incorporated. It has a lot of important things that the Wikipedia article misses—for example, that the lead singers are gay (and the implications this has on understanding the lyrics). While the "Critic from Publication said 'this' about the album' format works ok in the Reception section, it gets tiresome in Music and lyrics. Further, there's a sense of missing the forest for the trees; while the second paragraph of music namedrops 9 genres and 6 bands (including Cocteau Twins, mentioned thrice), it doesn't describe the basic impression one gets of the album, i.e. one of overwhelming quiet and intimacy.—indopug (talk) 10:20, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've incorporated material from it, including their sexual orientation. Several sources discuss the comparisons the album received from critics, so due weight was given, although I've removed one mention of Cocteau Twins. The quiet, intimate quality is duly noted in the bits mentioning McDonald (lead, background, recording), as that was really the impression he received, and perhaps others, although Jon Caramanica of The New York Times is cited in Release and reception as saying "it rarely feels intimate". Thx a lot for the new yorker article! Also, you might want to see how tiresome the Music and lyrics sections at ...And Justice for All (album) is. Dan56 (talk) 12:01, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Rationalobserver

Oppose Per Spike Wilbury and Indopug, the prose in this article is of a mediocre/poor quality that does not satisfy the FAC criteria 1a. Some examples include, but are not limited to, the repetitive use of words such as "band", which is used 42 times with no effort to break up the monotony with pronouns or alternatives such as "group". The word "that" (37 uses, 10 in release and reception) is used repeatedly and awkwardly to introduce thoughts, such as "found that", "felt that", "trusted that", "said that", "revealed that", "remarked that", "believed that", "wrote that", "explained that", "reported that", etcetera. The word "and" appears 13 times in the first paragraph of Background, and it's used excessively throughout. The prose is also misleading, such as this: "Critics particularly praised the music, which they found seductive, polished, and precisely performed." Critics is plural, but this statement is sourced to only one writer. There are also several instances of less than encyclopedic word choice used outside direct quotes; e.g., "intimate", "remarkably poised", "emotional lyrics", "austere" is used four times, thrice in Music and lyrics, "moody melodies", "a low-key, vulnerable style", "tacit intimacy", "express a jaded yearning", "the album's irresistible music". Per WP:PEACOCK, words like "acclaimed" and "remarkable" ought not be used outside quotes. The article's prose is far from "engaging", and it is certainly not "brilliant [or] of a professional standard".

I've removed/replaced numerous "that"s and "band"s. I don't see the problem with the "and"s; they serve their function and reduce the number of short, choppy sentences that would otherwise be in the article. Often times, it's unavoidable, particularly when certain band members need to be mentioned together, especially Croft and Sim. I've removed the characterization originally attributed to the Exclaim! source, which verifies "Press for the band's ... sound has been unanimously glowing." [Exclaim! writer's personal characterization of that sound omitted here] Dan56 (talk) 19:35, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's but one element of the poor condition the prose is currently in. Rationalobserver (talk) 20:53, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Apart from "austere" (which I've replaced with "unadorned"/"unembellished"/"simple") and "emotional lyrics" (which is attributed several times in #Music and lyrics), the other instances of "less than encyclopedic word choice" are all attributed (in-text) to their source. Please don't mistake the words listed in the quotebox at WP:PEACOCK as banned from use; the policy says that those are the words that happen to be used "often ... without attribution to promote the subject of an article, while neither imparting nor plainly summarizing verifiable information". The policy doesn't say they cant be used outside quotes. "Widespread acclaim" is established among several sources that profiled/wrote about the album or the group, while "remarkable" is an opinion attributed in the text to AllMusic's Heather Phares. Dan56 (talk) 19:25, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

If you are using the same creative words as the cited authors, then these words need to be in quotes, or else you are stealing their creativity and voicing it as Wikipedia/you. Rationalobserver (talk) 19:55, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Remarkable", Phares' word, isn't the word used in this article, although WP:PARAPHRASE says "quoting (with or without quotation marks)" is appropriate within reason. Dan56 (talk) 20:16, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Phares: "restraint and sophistication ... XX is still a remarkable debut", your prose: "a remarkably poised and sophisticated debut". I think your paraphrasing is troublesome. Rationalobserver (talk) 20:53, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This is acceptable, per WP:PARAPHRASE, which states "Limited close paraphrasing is appropriate within reason, as is quoting (with or without quotation marks), so long as the material is clearly attributed in the text – for example, by adding 'John Smith wrote ...,' together with a footnote containing the citation at the end of the clause, sentence or paragraph." This is what I did: "AllMusic's Heather Phares called the instrumentation impeccable and hailed the album as a remarkably poised and sophisticated debut from such a young group.^[33]" Dan56 (talk) 21:54, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You are citing an essay, Dan56; Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing is not a guideline or policy, and close paraphrasing is never a good thing in brilliant writing. Rationalobserver (talk) 22:43, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Now I'm citing the policy on plagiarism: WP:PLAG#Avoiding plagiarism (near where the green check marks are) → "copying a source's words without quotation marks; this also requires in-text attribution and an inline citation." and.. "Sometimes close paraphrasing is appropriate or even unavoidable. Add in-text attribution so that the reader knows you are relying on someone else's words or flow of thought." Dan56 (talk) 22:56, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep reading: "Note: even with in-text attribution, distinctive words or phrases may require quotation marks." This is exactly what I am talking about, because you must distinguish the unique or creative words from the generic; i.e., there is no need to paraphrase generic words. The examples to which you refer, at WP:PLAG#Avoiding plagiarism, do not contain any "distinctive words or phrases" like "intimate", "remarkably poised", "emotional lyrics", "moody melodies", "a low-key, vulnerable style", "tacit intimacy", "express a jaded yearning", "the album's irresistible music", etcetera. I dare say that you apparently do not understand this concept. Rationalobserver (talk) 23:12, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Look again, there's no note under "Close paraphrasing and in-text attribution", which is what I did in the examples you pointed out--paraphrased closely and attributed the source in the text. In fact, the example in the third quotebox at WP:PLAG#Avoiding plagiarism is closer paraphrasing than anything you've brought up here: "Source (John Smith, The Times, 7 November 2010): "Cottage Cheese for Beginners is the most boring book I've ever read." vs "John Smith wrote in The Times that Cottage Cheese for Beginners was a really boring read." Dan56 (talk) 11:32, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"the example in the third quotebox at WP:PLAG#Avoiding plagiarism is closer paraphrasing than anything you've brought up here". Nearly every comment you make regarding this issue is misguided, and your position reveals your lack of understanding. The source and the third example share two "creative" words: boring and read, the later of which is used in a different sense, as the source used it as a verb, but the paraphrase used it as a noun. There is only one potential candidate in that example for quote marks: "boring", which could be understood as generic enough so as to not require them. Rationalobserver (talk) 19:47, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Remarkable" is paraphrased as an adjective in this article, but is an adverb in the source: "AllMusic's Heather Phares called the instrumentation impeccable and hailed the album as a remarkably poised and sophisticated debut from such a young group.^[33]" Dan56 (talk) 20:32, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Phares: "restraint and sophistication ... XX is still a remarkable debut", your prose: "a remarkably poised and sophisticated debut". This is plagiarism via close paraphrase. You've also altered the meaning, another sign of bad paraphrasing, since Phares is not saying that the album was remarkably poised/restrained. Rationalobserver (talk) 20:51, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The article also fails 1d and 1b, as the prose is far from neutral, particularly the Release and reception section, which devotes 879 words to praise and just 70 words to criticism, leaving out the fact that many critics have viewed this album and group with disdain, calling it overrated and boring. This is also an issue with 1c, as many sources are not represented here, presumably because they do not share the over the top enthusiasm of the critics cited. The article fails 2a, as Spike Wilbury pointed out, particularly with the odd mention of "reverb in her lead guitar parts", which is not an appropriate level of detail for the lead. Further, the lead mentions four music genres, none of which are listed in the infobox.

The section is neutral in form; representing the viewpoints "proportionately" per WP:CRIT. More weight is given to the positive reviews and much less to the criticism, based on the reviews aggregated at Metacritic (and also Any Decent Music? for another reference). If I were to be more stringent about the proportion of positive to negative, the second paragraph would be even smaller, since the positives were nearly universal based on sources like the aggregate sites and profiles like The New Yorker piece which indoplug offered (as it mentions no critical view of the album), but that one short second paragraph should guarantee neutrality, although I understand how you got the impression that it didn't. The most reliable sources (profiles and the like on the album) mention the reception in terms of unanimous/widespread, glowing reviews, while at Metacritic, there are 24 positive reviews to just the one mixed review ([4]), so that's what I based it on. Dan56 (talk) 19:25, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The content of the section is far from neutral. I.e., where are the numerous voices that do not praise this album? Rationalobserver (talk) 19:55, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There weren't numerous instances of that. Like I mentioned before, there was only one mixed review according to Metacritic. As of now, the proportion in this section is five positive reviews mentioned to two critical ones. How can there be a question of neutrality when the proportion at Metacritic is 24 to 1, and none of the sources that go into any detail on this album's reception mention points of criticism? Dan56 (talk) 20:16, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Like I said above, you have almost 900 words detailing praise, but only 70 for criticism. The album is not universally enjoyed, though one would never know that by reading this article, hence the issue with 1d. Rationalobserver (talk) 20:53, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I heard you, and responded accordingly. According to reliable sources on this topic (which I presented to you), this album is universally enjoyed by critics, hence my issue with your objection. Dan56 (talk) 21:54, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Three years after its release, the album “xx” still seems overrated. Rationalobserver (talk) 22:43, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I researched the most reliable sources available, not a student newspaper blog from Eastern Michigan University. Dan56 (talk) 22:56, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The comparisons and elements the critics likened the album to are duly noted in #Music and lyrics, as are the critics who explicitly called it an "indie pop album" or a "dream pop album", so discretion was used. I don't see how the article flat-out fails a criteria because of one detail/sentence fragment that isn't particularly to your liking. That doesn't really sound fair to me is all. Dan56 (talk) 19:25, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Well, this is all a matter of opinion, or else bots would do the FA reviews, not people. Rationalobserver (talk) 19:55, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Um that's a rather indirect answer. You've cited criteria 2a from WP:FACR, which says the article should have "a concise lead section that summarizes the topic and prepares the reader for the detail in the subsequent sections". How does the sentence fragment about reverb make this article's lead a failure in that respect? Dan56 (talk) 20:16, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's not properly summarizing if you include this minor point in the lead. Rationalobserver (talk) 20:53, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I understood that to be your opinion, but I was asking how? It doesn't seem a minor enough point when the reverb setting is elaborated on in the body, twice, in "recording" and "music and lyrics", with respect to Croft's guitar sound. Dan56 (talk) 21:54, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

For example, you summarize the 610 word section on the tour with 13 words, and you've devoted 8 words to the reverb. Rationalobserver (talk) 22:43, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You're picking nits to give substance to a mealy-mouthed objection. Dan56 (talk) 22:56, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The article also fails criteria 4, particularly the excessive section devoted to touring (610 words) that seems better suited at The xx, or a topical article devoted to that tour. There are also some potential issues with paraphrasing, such as: Article: "a remarkably poised and sophisticated debut", Source: "a remarkable debut". I suggest that this nom be withdrawn pending a copyedit by someone who can smoothen the prose and avoid some of the repetition and peacockery, and introduce some critical balance for the sake of neutrality. Rationalobserver (talk) 17:23, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

MOS:ALBUM has a specific section devoted to creating such sections (including how it was received, the band's onstage setup, etc.) on an album's supporting tour when there isn't enough for a stand-alone article (cf. Disintegration (The Cure album)). Furthermore, the tour (like the other things I decided to include in this article) are based on the most reliable sources found on this album, so due weight was given. Dan56 (talk) 19:25, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. Most album articles do not include a lengthy section on the accompanying tour, and IMO they shouldn't. Rationalobserver (talk) 19:55, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You disagree that MOS:ALBUM suggests the creation of such sections? Or do you mean of sections as lengthy as this? If so, which parts do you feel go into too much detail? Dan56 (talk) 20:16, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

MOS:ALBUM says, "information about notable tours and festivals should be incorporated into either the artist's page, or the album article for which the tour is supporting." Are you contenting that I am wrong to suggest that this info is better suited at the artist page? Rationalobserver (talk) 20:53, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"...for which the tour is supporting". The tour specifically supporting this album is given a section in this article. What in your past FAC experience gives you the impression that this isn't appropriate, at least to the point of failing an FACR criteria? Dan56 (talk) 21:54, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think the article to too long, and I would merge the touring section elsewhere to rectify that. Rationalobserver (talk) 22:43, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think you're making a new complaint (article length) to justify a suspect objection. Dan56 (talk) 22:56, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"a remarkable debut" attributed to the critic in-text is not a paraphrasing issue; per WP:PARAPHRASE, "Limited close paraphrasing is appropriate within reason, as is quoting (with or without quotation marks), so long as the material is clearly attributed in the text – for example, by adding 'John Smith wrote ...,' together with a footnote containing the citation at the end of the clause, sentence or paragraph." Dan56 (talk) 19:25, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure that you understand paraphrasing all that well, which is a complaint that Spike Wilbury raised above. If "remarkable" is the exact creative expression from the source, then it should be in quotes. Paraphrasing is about avoiding the creative words, not re-phrasing them with your own conjunctions and prepositions. I stand by my assertion that "remarkable" is not a word that should be found outside quote marks in encyclopedic writing, per WP:PEACOCK. Rationalobserver (talk) 19:55, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Rationalobserver:, "remarkably poised and sophisticated debut" is not the exact expression from the source. WP:PEACOCK is a guideline meant to prevent use of such words without attribution, not prevent their use altogether. Per WP:PARAPHRASE quotation marks aren't a requirement for limited close paraphrasing. Considering I linked the source for you to compare, what part of "Heather Phares ... hailed the album as a remarkably poised and sophisticated debut from such a young group" is in violation of WP:PARAPHRASE? Dan56 (talk) 20:16, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Phares: "restraint and sophistication ... XX is still a remarkable debut", your prose: "a remarkably poised and sophisticated debut". I think your paraphrasing is, at best, troublesome. Like I said above, proper paraphrasing avoids the key creative words that make the author's statement unique. Consider using a thesaurus. Rationalobserver (talk) 20:53, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't an example of "proper paraphrasing", but of close paraphrasing with in-text attribution, which is acceptable per WP:PARAPHRASE: "Limited close paraphrasing is appropriate within reason, as is quoting (with or without quotation marks), so long as the material is clearly attributed in the text – for example, by adding John Smith wrote ..., together with a footnote containing the citation at the end of the clause, sentence or paragraph." This is what I did: "AllMusic's Heather Phares called the instrumentation impeccable and hailed the album as a remarkably poised and sophisticated debut from such a young group.^[33]" Dan56 (talk) 21:54, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm saying that as an educator, I would take issue with that if one of my students did that as many times as you've done it here. I teach them to identify the uniquely creative words and replace them with equivalents except when directly quoting. I stand by that, and I suggest that you need a stronger justification for playing fast and loose with copyrighted material then a Wikipedia essay. Rationalobserver (talk) 22:43, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

With respect to the three or four examples you brought up, the policy on plagiarism: WP:PLAG#Avoiding plagiarism (near where the green check marks are) → "copying a source's words without quotation marks; this also requires in-text attribution and an inline citation." and.. "Sometimes close paraphrasing is appropriate or even unavoidable. Add in-text attribution so that the reader knows you are relying on someone else's words or flow of thought." Dan56 (talk) 22:56, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep reading: "Note: even with in-text attribution, distinctive words or phrases may require quotation marks." This is exactly what I am talking about, because you must distinguish the unique or creative words from the generic; i.e., there is no need to paraphrase generic words. The examples to which you refer, at WP:PLAG#Avoiding plagiarism, do not contain any "distinctive words or phrases" like "intimate", "remarkably poised", "emotional lyrics", "moody melodies", "a low-key, vulnerable style", "tacit intimacy", "express a jaded yearning", "the album's irresistible music", etcetera. I dare say that you apparently do not understand this concept. Rationalobserver (talk) 23:11, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Look again, there's no note under "Close paraphrasing and in-text attribution", which is what I did in the examples you pointed out--paraphrased closely and attributed the source in the text. In fact, the example in the third quotebox at WP:PLAG#Avoiding plagiarism is closer paraphrasing than anything you've brought up here: "Source (John Smith, The Times, 7 November 2010): "Cottage Cheese for Beginners is the most boring book I've ever read." vs "John Smith wrote in The Times that Cottage Cheese for Beginners was a really boring read." Dan56 (talk) 11:32, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"the example in the third quotebox at WP:PLAG#Avoiding plagiarism is closer paraphrasing than anything you've brought up here". Nearly every comment you make regarding this issue is misguided, and your position reveals your lack of understanding. The source and the third example share two "creative" words: boring and read, the later of which is used in a different sense, as the source used it as a verb, but the paraphrase used it as a noun. There is only one potential candidate in that example for quote marks: "boring", which could be understood as generic enough so as to not require them. Rationalobserver (talk) 19:47, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Remarkable" is paraphrased as an adjective in this article, but is an adverb in the source: "AllMusic's Heather Phares called the instrumentation impeccable and hailed the album as a remarkably poised and sophisticated debut from such a young group.^[33]" Dan56 (talk) 20:32, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Phares: "restraint and sophistication ... XX is still a remarkable debut", your prose: "a remarkably poised and sophisticated debut". This is plagiarism via close paraphrase. You've also altered the meaning, another sign of bad paraphrasing, since Phares is not saying that the album was remarkably poised/restrained. Rationalobserver (talk) 20:51, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Look, I'm not going to go back and forth with you like Spike Wilbury did; FAC is not peer review. After 30 days at FAC, this article is still not up to snuff, and it should not be passed until the prose is improved to meet FAC criteria 1a. After it's been copyedited, bring it back to FAC ~~and ping me. I'll take another look at that time if I'm not too busy in real life.~~ For now, here are a few other issues I noticed:

Lead

You mention the critical reception before the album's release.

Those are stylistic comparisons that are part of #Music and lyrics, not how critics received it, i.e. positively or negatively. Dan56 (talk) 21:54, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"widespread acclaim" is fluffery

I disagree. Fluffery involves "unprovable proclamations"; "widespread acclaim" is verified by several sources. Dan56 (talk) 21:54, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"a protracted supporting tour that helped increase their ... reputation in the press"

This is an odd statement to follow: "xx was released in August 2009 by Young Turks, an imprint of XL, and received widespread acclaim from critics." So it earned widespread acclaim, but the tour later increased acceptance amongst critics?

Yes, what's wrong with that? Dan56 (talk) 21:54, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Spike Wilbury that "who employed reverb in her lead guitar parts" is not an appropriate detail for the lead.

You have yet to elaborate on why. Dan56 (talk) 21:54, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

WP:UNDUE and WP:LEAD, but this is too much to ask of a reviewer. You are combative and rude. Rationalobserver (talk) 22:51, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Background

"On late nights" is an awkward construction.

Gripe. Dan56 (talk) 21:54, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"greatly influenced" is unencyclopedic.

~~Gripe.~~ I'll elaborate. Since you're standard for wording is "encyclopedic", here are several encyclopedic works that use the phrase you're claiming is "unencyclopedic". You're entitled to your personal preferences with writing and the like, but you shouldn't push them onto others or hold this candidate hostage by making it the basis of your objection. Dan56 (talk) 11:43, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"The band covered R&B hits such as Aaliyah's "Hot Like Fire" (1997) and Womack & Womack's "Teardrops" (1988) when they performed live and recorded their demos.[4]"

This reads as, "The band covered R&B hits ... and recorded their demos.[4]", which is an awkward construction and sloppy prose.

No, it reads "The band covered R&B hits... when they performed live and recorded their demos". Dan56 (talk) 21:54, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"McDonald was impressed by the intimate quality and moments of silence on the demos"

Another awkward construction that illustrates my concern with the article's prose.

Another gripe that illustrates my concern with your intentions here. Dan56 (talk) 21:54, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Are you now questioning my intentions? Again, you are unnecessarily hostile, and I hope I never have to deal with you again. Rationalobserver (talk) 22:51, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Recording and production

"Croft, on the other hand, called it a "pretty confined space" the size of a bathroom.[7]"

Another poor quality construction. Does "the size of a bathroom" seem tacked-on?

"prepared a budget to the label"

Again, this is indicative of the awkward prose throughout.

Again, this is indicative of the mealy mouthed gripes throughout. Dan56 (talk) 21:54, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"prepared a budget to the label", or "prepared a budget for the label". It's an issue I see with ESL students. Rationalobserver (talk) 22:51, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I used "to the label..." to avoid repetition with "...for the studio's..."; I've revised it to "prepared a budget for the label to fund the studio's..." Dan56 (talk) 12:49, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"recording equipment specifically suited for the xx such as a modestly sized"

The article needs a top to bottom check for comma usage, which is poor throughout.

Comma usage before "such as" depends on the modifier that precedes it. Dan56 (talk) 21:54, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"McDonald had them write down their instruments' settings"

"had them"?

Yes. What? Dan56 (talk) 21:54, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's terrible prose, "had them write down", really? Rationalobserver (talk) 22:51, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Sim, who played a Precision Bass manufactured in the 1970s"

This is far too much detail for a summary style overview article, same with mentioning the Fender Bassman, Gibson SG, Fender Hot Rod Deluxe, Blues Deluxe amplifier, Epiphone Les Paul, Gibson ES-335, delay pedal, and a Roland Micro Cube.

"amplifier with a reverb setting"

I'll again echo Spike Wilbury's concerns that you do not understand the material you are paraphrasing. There is no such thing as a reverb setting; amplifiers have a reverb tank, that has a control knob that adjusts the level in relation to the dry signal.

Really? well here's an article by Sound on Sound that uses the exact phrase. Dan56 (talk) 21:54, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This is just more proof that you do not understand the musical terminology that you are using. The article you cited above is using it correctly, but you are not. I.e., an amplifier does not have a reverb setting, an amplifier has a reverb tank, which you adjust the setting for using a potentiometer. The setting varies as you adjust the pot. Rationalobserver (talk) 22:18, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

" the reverb setting on his amplifier", "reverb setting on your amp", "guitar amplifier with chorus and reverb setting". Dan56 (talk) 22:20, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

If your point is that others make the same mistake, I would say that your point is irrelevant and your approach to research misguided. Otherwise reliable sources make mistakes that often get repeated by other reliable sources. No musician would say they have a guitar amp with a reverb setting. Rationalobserver (talk) 22:51, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

WP:OTHERSTUFF concerns "similarities across projects" and articles on WP, not reliable sources, another guideline I feel you've misinterpreted. May I ask what qualifies you as an expert in this regard, considering you've questioned my use of a few music terms like this and I should forgo these sources and trust your personal knowledge? Or with regards to prose for that matter? Dan56 (talk) 20:32, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to know why I should trust you over sources that literally use the same wording? Dan56 (talk) 21:40, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a musician of 35 years; I play guitar, bass, drums, keyboards, a little saxophone, and sometimes when I'm a little tipsy, the didgeridoo. A guitar amp either has or does not have an onboard reverb unit, which is called a reverb tank. The amount of reverb, or "wet" signal, is controlled with a potentiometer that is wired to the amplifier circuit just before a reverb choke. There is no "reverb setting", but you do adjust your reverb setting from 1–10 using the pot. I.e., reverb is an effect, and it's is accomplished by a reverb unit, called a tank, not a setting. Rationalobserver (talk) 21:49, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This effects review site uses "reverb tank" and "reverb setting" interchangeably. While you have your experience and personal knowledge, the sources at least suggest my wording should suffice. Dan56 (talk) 23:06, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You might be confusing "setting" with "channel", as some guitar amplifiers have "clean" channels that do not have any effects and "wet" or "dirty" channels that have reverb, chorus, distortion, etcetera. If she was specifically referring to her Fender Hot Rod Deluxe, with one or two 12" speakers, then I have some personal knowledge of this, because I used to own a Hot Rod Deville, with 4 10" speakers, an American one before Fender started making them in Mexico. It's essentially the same amp, and it does have a clean channel and two distorted ones (labeled drive and more drive), but all three have reverb. I.e., a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe does not have a clean channel without reverb. Rationalobserver (talk) 21:59, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"After all the instrumental elements had been tracked"

This is verbose. instrumental elements → instruments

Not verbose, gripe. Dan56 (talk) 21:54, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"They rarely sang backup to one another on any of the songs."

Does this mean there are only harmonies, with no lead singing?

The source is cited for you to check. Dan56 (talk) 21:54, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"drafts of his beats.[2] Smith created his beats"

More awkward prose.

More gripes. Dan56 (talk) 21:54, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"which had been given to him as a gift on his birthday"

Verbose

Gripe. Dan56 (talk) 21:54, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Smith also created click tracks for the rest of the band"

One does not really "create" a click track; it's merely a metronomic tone generated by the recording console, which I think speaks to Spike's concern that you do not understand the musical jargon that you attempt to paraphrase.

There are many high-quality sources that use this phrase "created a click track" ([5]). I think this speaks to my concern that both of you are too obstinate to look beyond your personal criteria for these kind of articles. Dan56 (talk) 21:54, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"he refined and incorporated his beats into the songs for three to four weeks"

The article is riddled with improper and confusing syntax such as this.

Your review is riddled with gripes such as these. Dan56 (talk) 21:54, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Most of xx was recorded from Christmastime to late January"

Per WP:REALTIME, this should be December, not Christmastime.

Finally, a legitimate issue. Dan56 (talk) 21:54, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The issues are too numerous for me to mention them all here; I don't have enough time. Again, FAC is not a form of peer review, whereby we work together to improve the article until I change my oppose, which stands. Rationalobserver (talk) 20:55, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Music and lyrics

"The songs' melodies are separated by rests."

I agree with Spike; this is an indication that the paraphraser does not understand the material. I.e., melodies aren't separated by rests, rests occur within the notes of the melodies.

"before they lead to quietly sung verses.[15] Croft and Sim exchange verses on 'Crystalised'"

I see lots of this type of repetitive sentences. It's poor quality prose that lacks smooth transitions.

Source: "Croft and Sim craft languid, sparsely arranged love songs that recall atmospheric 80s acts such as the Cocteau Twins and Mazzy Star. Better still, they betray their south London roots: gentle, plaintive melodies are framed by minimal beats that nod to dubstep and R&B."

Article: "According to Sarah Boden of The Observer, the album's unadorned, dream pop love songs are reminiscent of Cocteau Twins and Mazzy Star, because they feature low tempos, moody melodies, and rhythms influenced by R&B and dubstep.[19]"

1) What is a "low tempo"? Did you mean slow tempo? This is another example of your apparent misunderstanding of musical terminology. 2) Boden does not mention tempo, so where did you get this?

Languid = slow/relaxed; "tempo" = the speed at which a passage of music is played. Dan56 (talk) 23:08, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Note: even with in-text attribution, distinctive words or phrases may require quotation marks." This is exactly what I am talking about, because you must distinguish the unique or creative words from the generic; i.e., there is no need to paraphrase generic words. The examples to which you refer, at WP:PLAG#Avoiding plagiarism, do not contain any "distinctive words or phrases" like "intimate", "remarkably poised", "emotional lyrics", "moody melodies", "a low-key, vulnerable style", "tacit intimacy", "express a jaded yearning", "the album's irresistible music", etcetera. I dare say that you apparently do not understand this concept. Rationalobserver (talk) 23:16, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Look again, there's no note under "Close paraphrasing and in-text attribution", which is what I did in the examples you pointed out--paraphrased closely and attributed the source in the text. In fact, the example in the third quotebox at WP:PLAG#Avoiding plagiarism is closer paraphrasing than anything you've brought up here: "Source (John Smith, The Times, 7 November 2010): "Cottage Cheese for Beginners is the most boring book I've ever read." vs "John Smith wrote in The Times that Cottage Cheese for Beginners was a really boring read." Dan56 (talk) 11:32, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"the example in the third quotebox at WP:PLAG#Avoiding plagiarism is closer paraphrasing than anything you've brought up here". Nearly every comment you make regarding this issue is misguided, and your position reveals your lack of understanding. The source and the third example share two "creative" words: boring and read, the later of which is used in a different sense, as the source used it as a verb, but the paraphrase used it as a noun. There is only one potential candidate in that example for quote marks: "boring", which could be understood as generic enough so as to not require them. Rationalobserver (talk) 19:47, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Remarkable" is paraphrased as an adjective in this article, but is an adverb in the source: "AllMusic's Heather Phares called the instrumentation impeccable and hailed the album as a remarkably poised and sophisticated debut from such a young group.^[33]" Dan56 (talk) 20:32, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Phares: "restraint and sophistication ... XX is still a remarkable debut", your prose: "a remarkably poised and sophisticated debut". This is plagiarism via close paraphrase. You've also altered the meaning, another sign of bad paraphrasing, since Phares is not saying that the album was remarkably poised/restrained. Rationalobserver (talk) 20:51, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Paraphrasing

Article: "dub-inflected post-punk"

Source: "dub influenced post-punk"

That's limited close paraphrasing with in-text attribution; you should know the policy, because I've reiterated it to you four or five times by now. Dan56 (talk) 22:18, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Note: even with in-text attribution, distinctive words or phrases may require quotation marks." This is exactly what I am talking about, because you must distinguish the unique or creative words from the generic; i.e., there is no need to paraphrase generic words. The examples to which you refer, at WP:PLAG#Avoiding plagiarism, do not contain any "distinctive words or phrases" like "intimate", "remarkably poised", "emotional lyrics", "moody melodies", "a low-key, vulnerable style", "tacit intimacy", "express a jaded yearning", "the album's irresistible music", etcetera. I dare say that you apparently do not understand this concept. Rationalobserver (talk) 23:16, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Look again, there's no note under "Close paraphrasing and in-text attribution", which is what I did in the examples you pointed out--paraphrased closely and attributed the source in the text. In fact, the example in the third quotebox at WP:PLAG#Avoiding plagiarism is closer paraphrasing than anything you've brought up here: "Source (John Smith, The Times, 7 November 2010): "Cottage Cheese for Beginners is the most boring book I've ever read." vs "John Smith wrote in The Times that Cottage Cheese for Beginners was a really boring read." Dan56 (talk) 11:32, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"the example in the third quotebox at WP:PLAG#Avoiding plagiarism is closer paraphrasing than anything you've brought up here". Nearly every comment you make regarding this issue is misguided, and your position reveals your lack of understanding. The source and the third example share two "creative" words: boring and read, the later of which is used in a different sense, as the source used it as a verb, but the paraphrase used it as a noun. There is only one potential candidate in that example for quote marks: "boring", which could be understood as generic enough so as to not require them. Rationalobserver (talk) 19:47, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Remarkable" is paraphrased as an adjective in this article, but is an adverb in the source: "AllMusic's Heather Phares called the instrumentation impeccable and hailed the album as a remarkably poised and sophisticated debut from such a young group.^[33]" Dan56 (talk) 20:32, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Phares: "restraint and sophistication ... XX is still a remarkable debut", your prose: "a remarkably poised and sophisticated debut". This is plagiarism via close paraphrase. You've also altered the meaning, another sign of bad paraphrasing, since Phares is not saying that the album was remarkably poised/restrained. Rationalobserver (talk) 20:51, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"On xx, Croft and Sim touched on themes of love, desire, and loss in their songwriting, which she said has "always been based around emotions, right from the start."

The pronoun she is referring to Sim, who unless I am mistaken is a man.

Actually it's referring to Croft, but if you feel readers may be confused, I'll change it. Dan56 (talk) 22:18, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

WP:STICKTOSOURCE

Article: "Robert Christgau believed they rely on a low-key, vulnerable style"

I'm not seeing where Christgau says anything about low-key or vulnerable.

He does in his NPR review, which I've bundled in that citation along with his MSN MUsic review. Dan56 (talk) 22:18, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Article: "the yearning expressed on 'Heart Skipped a Beat'"

Where are you getting this?

The NME review says "aching with longing". Dan56 (talk) 22:18, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Paraphrasing

Article: "tacit intimacy"

Source: "natural intimacy"

I still don't think you understand that close paraphrasing is acceptable with in-text attribution. Dan56 (talk) 22:18, 26 September 2014 (UTC)\[reply]

"Note: even with in-text attribution, distinctive words or phrases may require quotation marks." This is exactly what I am talking about, because you must distinguish the unique or creative words from the generic; i.e., there is no need to paraphrase generic words. The examples to which you refer, at WP:PLAG#Avoiding plagiarism, do not contain any "distinctive words or phrases" like "intimate", "remarkably poised", "emotional lyrics", "moody melodies", "a low-key, vulnerable style", "tacit intimacy", "express a jaded yearning", "the album's irresistible music", etcetera. I dare say that you apparently do not understand this concept. Rationalobserver (talk) 23:16, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Look again, there's no note under "Close paraphrasing and in-text attribution", which is what I did in the examples you pointed out--paraphrased closely and attributed the source in the text. In fact, the example in the third quotebox at WP:PLAG#Avoiding plagiarism is closer paraphrasing than anything you've brought up here: "Source (John Smith, The Times, 7 November 2010): "Cottage Cheese for Beginners is the most boring book I've ever read." vs "John Smith wrote in The Times that Cottage Cheese for Beginners was a really boring read." Dan56 (talk) 11:32, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"the example in the third quotebox at WP:PLAG#Avoiding plagiarism is closer paraphrasing than anything you've brought up here". Nearly every comment you make regarding this issue is misguided, and your position reveals your lack of understanding. The source and the third example share two "creative" words: boring and read, the later of which is used in a different sense, as the source used it as a verb, but the paraphrase used it as a noun. There is only one potential candidate in that example for quote marks: "boring", which could be understood as generic enough so as to not require them. Rationalobserver (talk) 19:47, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Remarkable" is paraphrased as an adjective in this article, but is an adverb in the source: "AllMusic's Heather Phares called the instrumentation impeccable and hailed the album as a remarkably poised and sophisticated debut from such a young group.^[33]" Dan56 (talk) 20:32, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Phares: "restraint and sophistication ... XX is still a remarkable debut", your prose: "a remarkably poised and sophisticated debut". This is plagiarism via close paraphrase. You've also altered the meaning, another sign of bad paraphrasing, since Phares is not saying that the album was remarkably poised/restrained.Rationalobserver (talk) 20:51, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Read the review: "This restraint and sophistication make the fact that the xx's members were barely in their twenties when they recorded the album all the more impressive"; the meaning is the same. Dan56 (talk) 21:04, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I did read the review, that's why I know that you are wrong. Phares says, "While the band's subtlety and consistency threaten to work against them at times, XX is still a remarkable debut." Which means the poise "sometimes works against them", but it's still a "remarkable debut", not that it is remarkably poised. Are you for real, because you are absolutely terrible at paraphrasing, and you won't accept advice from some of the best colleges and universities. Rationalobserver (talk) 21:22, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"The album's Roman numeral title refers to each of the band members having turned 20 years old by the time they released xx.[7] Because of their age, many critics interpreted the songs as nocturnal depictions of adolescent lust.[1]"

This is out-of-place in Music and lyrics.

It's the most appropriate place to put it in the article, as it ties into the paragraph's topic--the members' age and its relationship to their lyrics. Dan56 (talk) 22:18, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've refuted your point about close paraphrasing, peacock terms, and regurgitated the same policies at length, but you're incredibly obstinate in your position and vague/indirect about the complaints you make. Dan56 (talk) 21:54, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Now you are getting abusive. I'm not sure you are the right type of person to bring articles here if you always resort to personal attacks and insults. You are not the writer that you apparently think you are, as this article is not at all "brilliant". Rationalobserver (talk) 22:04, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You're being oversensitive. You felt my prose was poor, I felt your objections were petty and your explanations were irritatingly evasive, avoiding the policies and guidelines that clearly justified my position on certain parts of your review. Dan56 (talk) 23:08, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You need to be less combative and rude if you want people to spend their time reviewing your work. Rationalobserver (talk) 23:16, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Likewise. Dan56 (talk) 11:32, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Dan56 and close paraphrasing

In the above discussion, Dan56 has repeatedly admitted that he intentionally includes close paraphrases in his writing. He defends this position and states that close paraphrasing is not plagiarism.

Look again, there's no note under "Close paraphrasing and in-text attribution", which is what I did in the examples you pointed out--paraphrased closely and attributed the source in the text. In fact, the example in the third quotebox at WP:PLAG#Avoiding plagiarism is closer paraphrasing than anything you've brought up here: "Source (John Smith, The Times, 7 November 2010): "Cottage Cheese for Beginners is the most boring book I've ever read." vs "John Smith wrote in The Times that Cottage Cheese for Beginners was a really boring read." Dan56 (talk) 11:32, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

However, this is not at all the position of the Wikilegal team regarding copyright, or the academic world regarding what technically constitutes plagiarism:

20 third party sources on close paraphrasing and plagiarism

Per Wikilegal/Close Paraphrasing, Question: "Is close paraphrasing of a copyrighted work a copyright infringement?" Answer: "Yes. Among other rights, copyright law grants a copyright owner exclusive control over any unauthorized copying of the copyrighted work.[1] Paraphrasing may be construed as copying if it is 'substantially similar' to the copyrighted material. Such paraphrasing infringes on one of the exclusive rights of the copyright owner." Rationalobserver (talk) 16:25, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
From Washington University Law: "Examples of Plagiarism: Verbatim appropriation of another's particularly apt phrase with citation but without quotation marks."
From Bristol: "If you are not quoting other scholars directly, you must express their ideas in your own words: close paraphrasing, where only a few words of each sentence are changed from the original, has no place in academic writing."
From the University of North Carolina: "Paraphrasing means taking another person’s ideas and putting those ideas in your own words. Paraphrasing does NOT mean changing a word or two in someone else’s sentence, changing the sentence structure while maintaining the original words, or changing a few words to synonyms. If you are tempted to rearrange a sentence in any of these ways, you are writing too close to the original. That’s plagiarizing, not paraphrasing."
From Cabrillo: "You must put 'quotation marks' around any exact wording that you borrow, including phrases and sometimes even words."
From Harvard: "When you paraphrase, your task is to distill the source's ideas in your own words. It's not enough to change a few words here and there and leave the rest; instead, you must completely restate the ideas in the passage in your own words. If your own language is too close to the original, then you are plagiarizing, even if you do provide a citation."
From the University of Virginia: "In general, you will avoid plagiarism if you cite the sources you paraphrase and, if you use words or phrases that are distinctive to your original source, you use quotation marks as well. You should err on the side of attribution and quotation marks if you want to avoid plagiarism."
From Amherst College: "No matter your intention, close paraphrase may count as plagiarism, even when you cite the source."
From the University of Maine: "If your paraphrase mimics the original sentence structure of the source, it is considered a close paraphrase, a form of plagiarism."
From Princeton: "Inserting even short phrases from the source into a new sentence still requires placing quotations around the borrowed words and citing the author. If even one phrase is good enough to borrow, it must be properly set off by quotation marks."
From the University of Toronto: "A close paraphrase may count as plagiarism, even if you cite the source."
From Earlham: "If the language of your paraphrase is very close to the original, then to drop the quotation marks and pretend the language is your own is still misleading and dishonest. It is still plagiarism. This is so even if you include a citation. A good paraphrase goes well beyond superficial tinkering with the original language."
From Donnelly College: "You will also have plagiarism issues if your paraphrasing is too close to the original work. If you have any doubts about your paraphrasing, use quotations."
From Loyola Marymount: "Unintentional Plagiarism: Paraphrasing too close to the original".
From Athabasca University: "One particular problem has been with what is called close paraphrasing or patchwork paraphrasing. In patchwork paraphrasing, students copy words and phrases from the original source and connect the words and phrases together with a few extra words of their own. Some students think that by inserting a few words of their own that they have avoided plagiarism, but they are merely disguising it. Disguised plagiarism in the form of patchwork paraphrasing remains plagiarism."
From Regis University: "Note that close paraphrase, where only trivial changes are made such as substituting similar words, is essentially the same as copying the author directly. "
From Texas A&M University: "Be careful that your paraphrasing is not so close to the original that it would be better to simply use a direct quotation with quotation marks. (Leaving off quotation marks is a large error, even if you have made a parenthetical reference at the end of the sentence or passage; you could face a charge of plagiarism for such an omission.) Use quotation marks every time you use words or phrases from the original source."
From the University of Queensland: "Close paraphrases of a text are regarded as "plagiarism", just as are unacknowledged quotations. This is defined by the university as "cheating". To "paraphrase" means to restate someone else's statement(s) in your own words. A close paraphrase means minor changes have been made to an original text – for example, phrases have been re-ordered, or synonyms substituted."
From the University of Notre Dame: "Check your paraphrase against the original text to be sure you have not accidentally used the same phrases or words".
From the University of the West Indies: "Cosmetic paraphrasing is also plagiarism. This can occur when an acknowledgement is made but the words are so close to the original that what is deemed to have been paraphrased is, in fact, a modified quote." Rationalobserver (talk) 19:23, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

FTR, Dan56 is arguing that this is an appropriate paraphrase:

Source (Phares): "This restraint and sophistication make the fact that the xx's members were barely in their twenties when they recorded the album all the more impressive (5th sentence) ... While the band's subtlety and consistency threaten to work against them at times, XX is still a remarkable debut."(11th and last sentence)

Article prose: "a remarkably poised and sophisticated debut"

This is plagiarism via close paraphrase, as Dan56 has retained the distinct or creative words: remarkable (though in altered form) and sophisticated, while swapping restraint for poise, a basic synonym exchange that does not satisfy fair paraphrasing. He's also altered the meaning of the source material, which is another sign of bad paraphrasing, since Phares is not saying that the album was "remarkably poised and sophisticated", but rather that the album shows "restraint and sophistication" and that it is "a remarkable debut", which are two distinct points. Rationalobserver (talk) 21:08, 27 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"This restraint and sophistication ... all the more impressive" = "...remarkable". Dan56 (talk) 21:42, 28 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Technically, Phares could've been using "remarkable" to refer to aspects of the album outside its poise and sophistication. (For the record, I don't mind "sophistication" being used. I can't think of any synonyms except "complicated", which has a slightly negative connotation, or "complex", which I think slightly implies technical complexity.) Tezero (talk) 21:49, 28 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Reread the review. Phares uses "remarkable" in the last sentence, saying that it was overall "a remarkable debut" despite the sometimes excessive "subtlety and consistency". Much earlier in the review, she said it showed signs of "sophistication", not that it was remarkably sophisticated. This is an improper synthesis of three distinct adjectives, and Dan56 is using the last one to modify two earlier ones. She said the album was remarkable, not that it was remarkably sophisticated, and there is a significant difference. Rationalobserver (talk) 21:57, 28 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Sometimes excessive" or "showed signs of" is not indicated anywhere in the review. Phares found its "restraint and sophistication" worthy of being or likely to be noticed especially as being uncommon or extraordinary: "These tracks are so sleek, they're practically sculptural, and they boast impeccably groomed arrangements. The beats pulse rather than crash; the guitars are artfully picked and plucked; and the vocals rarely rise above a wistful sigh. This restraint and sophistication make the fact that the xx's members were barely in their twenties when they recorded the album all the more impressive; artists twice their age would be proud to call the maturity and confidence that flow seemingly effortlessly through the xx their own." WP:SYNTH applies to using multiple sources, btw, not adjectives. Dan56 (talk) 22:09, 28 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Sometimes excessive" or "showed signs of" is not indicated anywhere in the review.

The fifth sentence of Phares' review: "This restraint and sophistication make the fact that the xx's members were barely in their twenties when they recorded the album all the more impressive", from that I get "showed signs of sophistication". The last sentence of Phares' review: "While the band's subtlety and consistency threaten to work against them at times, XX is still a remarkable debut that rewards repeated listens and leaves listeners wanting more." From this I get that the "restraint" borders on excessive. FTR, aren't you connecting these two distinct points to say "remarkably sophisticated", and aren't you doing this outside quote marks as though these are your own words, and not a modified quote? Rationalobserver (talk) 22:16, 28 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There are no "signs of"; Phares explicitly says "This restraint and sophistication", there is "restraint and sophistication" on the album, not just "signs of". Furthermore, "subtlety" does not mean the same thing as "restraint", and Phares does not elaborate on how either "threaten to work against them". You're free to assume she believes there's too much of the "subtlety and consistency". I'm not using anything as though they are my own words; you can't put "remarkably" or "sophisticated" in quotation marks when that specific word is not used anywhere in the review, but Phares is attributed in-text anyway because I'm summarizing her opinion. Dan56 (talk) 22:33, 28 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I noticed that "rewards repeated listens" is an exact phrase from Phares' review, and this phrase is included verbatim and outside quotation marks in the article, but cited to Sasha Frere-Jones' review. Can you please show me what material you paraphrased from Frere-Jones to assert that he said it "rewards repeated listens"? Rationalobserver (talk) 22:29, 28 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"That’s one reason that this short album, at just under thirty-nine minutes, is so easy to play and replay. Nothing wears out its welcome ... Play the album a few times and all of a sudden other pop music sounds abrasive and overstuffed and shouty." The burden is on you as the reviewer to check it yourself btw. Dan56 (talk) 22:33, 28 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Don't you think it's slightly concerning that your paraphrase of Frere-Jones contains a verbatim phrase from the critic that you cite immediately following your paraphrase of Frere-Jones? You obviously picked this phrase up from Phares and plagiarized it as your summary of Frere-Jones. Rationalobserver (talk) 22:39, 28 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Revision as of 22:39, 28 September 2014

Xx (album)

Comments from Tezero

Comments from MusikAnimal

Comments from Spike Wilbury

Comments from Rationalobserver

Dan56 and close paraphrasing

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